Chapter 466 "Conclusion" Discussion

Archibald Desmond Deus

Yeah, Zoro would never do something like put himself in danger if it meant winning. What was I thinking?

http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemanga/onepiecechapter122.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2435

Zoro cutting of a trapped body part so he can continue fighting makes sense given his mentality. Him thinking 'surely suicide will help me win', does not. Why you refuse to believe that Ryuuma, a creature that can break through walls with simple thrusts, propelled Zoro through that wall baffles me.

@Greg:

You speak about what's going to happen as if you're Oda and writing it yourself.

I on the other hand have proposed an idea I happen to like. Who are you to say whether it will unfold that way or not?

And I am refuting your idea because I don't agree with it. This is called debate. You have chosen one side of the argument, I have chosen the other. There's no right or wrong here until Oda reveals it. I don't see how I'm being pretentious and you're not when we're just stating what we think will happen. And I have the right to say whether it will unfold that way or not because I'm discussing the manga on an internet forum. Everyone has the right to their own opinions here.

@Greg:

Yeah. Because if you're standing after a major clash, it means you've won.

http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemanga/onepiecechapter189.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3680

Sanji was still standing and Bon Clay was summarily thrown into a building and fell to the ground. Funny that you left that part out.

@Greg:

So…you're suggesting Oda uses the exact same result for victory in all cases? Has Ryuma even said anything?

Man, I just can't stand these people that think they're Oda and can say for certain what will/won't transpire. How self-important can you be?

Perhaps you can explain that better. I don't see how arguing against your point makes me 'A pompous bastard who's so obsessed with his own ego that he can't see the potential of my idea'.

@Greg:

HAH! Even better example than mine.

I'm without fast internet so if I could have what chapter this occurred in I can come back to it.

@Greg:

Okay, so the fight is finished and we see Zoro falling. If we're quick to jump to conclusions it would seem Zoro is the loser simply because he's falling.

I never said he was the loser of this fight, just the loser of this particular engagement. I already stated that Zoro will win this fight somehow, that's obvious.

@Greg:

Well….does that mean Luffy lost in Arabasta because he fell after shooting Croc into the air? No. But he fell as a result of his attack. And he we simply see Zoro falling after what was some spectacular attack no doubt.

@Greg:

So…you're suggesting Oda uses the exact same result for victory in all cases?

Greg

Him thinking 'surely suicide will help me win', does not.

Now see…herein lies the root of your problem. I haven't read the rest of your post because this is all you need to clear up.

You are limiting your imagination and more importantly, you are making an assumption based on what you see.

You are thinking:

Zoro is falling. There are two possibilities that exist.

1. He jumped to his death.

2. Ryuma made him fall.

That's well and good but....what if there were other options?

A new attack of Zoro's cut through the roof but sent him flying backwards.

Zoro took Ryuma's final attack head on for a certain reason at Ryuma's request.

Zoro is planning an attack from the ground up.

etc.

I can't propose reasons for ANY of these scenarios. That's Oda's job.

But you're thinking in a very static mindset in a remarkably flexible world.

Again, go watch Rashomon. No, not Zoro's attack, the movie.

Archibald Desmond Deus

@Greg:

Now see…herein lies the root of your problem. I haven't read the rest of your post because this is all you need to clear up.

You are limiting your imagination and more importantly, you are making an assumption based on what you see.

You are thinking:

Zoro is falling. There are two possibilities that exist.

1. He jumped to his death.

2. Ryuma made him fall.

That's well and good but....what if there were other options?

A new attack of Zoro's cut through the roof but sent him flying backwards.

Zoro took Ryuma's final attack head on for a certain reason at Ryuma's request.

Zoro is planning an attack from the ground up.

etc.

I can't propose reasons for ANY of these scenarios. That's Oda's job.

But you're thinking in a very static mindset in a remarkably flexible world.

Again, go watch Rashomon. No, not Zoro's attack, the movie.

Your point is valid I give you that; it very well could be the scenario. However, I'm looking at things from a logical standpoint. After Zoro fell through the wall, Brook and Franky didn't even mention anything about a new attack. What they did metion however, was that Ryuuma wasn't even trying when he was fighting Brook. This implies that Ryuuma did something that showed great strength and impressed the two of them. If they had kept that conversation ambiguous I might be willing to concede this point. However, Oda seems to be trying to show that Ryuuma is strong by:

1. Having Zoro pop out a roof.
2. Having Brook and Franky discussing Ryuuma's strength.
3. Having Ryuuma look baddass.

If all that leads to 'Zoro knocked himself through a wall' then I'll say Kudos to Oda for fooling me, but there's nothing there to indicate anything else. I've never seen Rashomon so maybe Oda is duplicating this somehow, but I've never seen this scene before so I'm going by what knowledge I have. If there's some indication there that duplicates said scene, please explain it.

Gorlom

Greg im afraid i have to say Archibald Desmond Deus expressed an opinion just like you. he didnt state that anything he thought was fact and that you were stupid for thinking anything else or the like. (dont read that sentence wrong please.)
he is just disagreeing with you and argueing his case just like you are argueing yours. you look differently at the same few panels and i think their meaning seems more obvious to him while they are ambigious to you. (not saying anyone is right or wrong here)

i think this is a case where the two of you will have to end up agreeing to disagree.

Greg

After Zoro fell through the wall, Brook and Franky didn't even mention anything about a new attack.

Why would they need to?

You're fighting this so hard but in the end it's all ambiguous. Everything in the few panels we've seen could go either way in favor of either opponent.

I've never seen Rashomon so maybe Oda is duplicating this somehow, but I've never seen this scene before so I'm going by what knowledge I have.

There's no 'fighting' scene like this in Rashomon Oda is duplicating. It's the concept.

A crime is described from several angles and based on our own prejudices and assumptions about what we think we know, the case turns out to be entirely different when either fully explored or viewed from different perspectives.

he didnt state that anything he thought was fact and that you were stupid for thinking anything else or the like.

Previously he said something 'can't' or 'won't' happen. And that's something neither of us can decide.

Gorlom

@Greg:

Previously he said something 'can't' or 'won't' happen. And that's something neither of us can decide.

oh? must have missed that part…

Archibald Desmond Deus

@Greg:

Why would they need to?

You're fighting this so hard but in the end it's all ambiguous. Everything in the few panels we've seen could go either way in favor of either opponent.

You're fighting just as hard that this is ambiguous. From the way it looks, Zoro and Franky are discussing how Ryuuma wasn't even trying when he fought Brook. Zoro was propelled backwards through a wall. Ryuuma stood next to the opening and looked down on his fallen opponent. I don't really see what's ambiguous about this scene. Could Oda throw a curveball here? Possibly. It's not what is implied though. Maybe my rigid, concrete mind can't fathom the multitude of possiblities that could come from such a scene, but logic tells me this. Ryuuma stands over zoro, Zoro's on his back, Brook and Franky talk about Ryuuma's strength. Seems to add up to 'Zoro got whooped'.

@Greg:

There's no 'fighting' scene like this in Rashomon Oda is duplicating. It's the concept.

A crime is described from several angles and based on our own prejudices and assumptions about what we think we know, the case turns out to be entirely different when either fully explored or viewed from different perspectives.

Sounds like an interesting concept and something I'll have to watch. This however is not a complex dialogue on our own prejudices and assumptions. This is a fight between a pirate-samurai and a zombie. If Oda wants to throw something like that in, by all means go ahead. I'm sure he'll imply it in the chapters leading up to it. But for now, given the information we have, it's nigh impossible to come to that conclusion.

@Greg:

Previously he said something 'can't' or 'won't' happen. And that's something neither of us can decide.

Point out what I did that offended you.

Greg

This however is not a complex dialogue on our own prejudices and assumptions.

Your own words.

From the way it looks

Your own words.

You have based your assumptions merely on what you've seen and don't seem to be accepting the possibility that it could be otherwise.

Point out what I did that offended you.

You haven't offended me, I don't take offense to anything on the internet. But saying something will or won't happen is entirely the wrong attitude.

Jay_n_Silentbob

Greg, I've had this experience before: no matter what is said in the Recent Chapter discussion, NOONE will change their opinions…NEVER...

(Good try, though)

Greg

Well, I'm not out to change anyone's opinion persay, just allow people to accept other ideas and Archibald seems to have realized that.

He has a different opinion of what will transpire which is awesome.

I just can't stand the, 'No, that's not going to happen' attitude.

raj

Man, sure would be fun if it was Asura or someshit

*Meh*

Or, perhaps this is Samurai Passionate, Life-or-Death Manly Struggle Pose #38? The one where one fighter falls, the other stands there for a minute, falls over, the two talk like old friends, and then one of them admits defeat.

You know, I was originally against the idea that Ryuma's soul would awaken during the fight with Zoro. Now I would like to see him realize his situation, and purify himself. Not out of a sense of shame or to save face, but because he recognizes that he has been manipulated by Moria and wishes to return to his eternal repose. More than likely though, this would be construed as surrender; Ryuma would never give up, and Zoro probably wouldn't let him. Either way, when Ryuma shuttles off his undead coil I suspect he will entrust his sword to Zoro

Sigh… It's just a shame that there's no OP or other SJs this week. :(

Archibald Desmond Deus

@Greg:

You have based your assumptions merely on what you've seen and don't seem to be accepting the possibility that it could be otherwise.

How is this any different from what you're doing? You're basing your assumptions on conjecture that have very little logic behind them or at least logic I can't see. This is exactly the kind of thing where people are sure Ace beat Blackbeard for some reason. Even though everything in the story we saw up to that point seemed to implicate otherwise. Sure ODa could draw a panel next week where Ace rams his foot up Blackbeard's ass, but it's unlikely. When I offer points as to what I think will happen, you turn around and call me closed-minded.

If that's the point you're trying to make, a bazillion things could happen. Hell, a magical fairy could have made his way between Ryuuma and Zoro, let out a fantasmagorical fart that blew Zoro backwards and covered Ryuuma in dark, stink. All plot elements are there to make my point plausible save for the logic one would expect from such a scene.

Why I'm so adamant on my point is this:
Let's say hypothetically that you're right, this is an attack from Zoro that blew him backwards and for some reason Ryuuma is still standing from it. Why would Brook state "This Samurai fellow…he never bothered to fight me seriously at all". Why would he say that if Zoro's damage was self-inflicted?

From what I can see Brook is implying that he's really impressed with Ryuuma's strength. Moving backwards we see Ryuuma is still standing. Moving further backwards we see Zoro propelled through the roof like a cannonball. I come to the conclusion from this that Zoro was propelled by Ryuuma through the wall.

Now you're free to have your own opinion on the matter; hell have a million of them. But when you put your theories on a forum for discussion of a manga, expect to have them disputed. And don't come back with this 'You don't understand because you're too closed-minded crap'. It's debate. Discuss your point. It's far more fun that way.

@Greg:

You haven't offended me, I don't take offense to anything on the internet. But saying something will or won't happen is entirely the wrong attitude.

I assumed I offended you somewhere since you insulted me. If you didn't mean it as such, perhaps I'm being too sensitive and I'll forget about it.

dinty

@_Meh_:

You know, I was originally against the idea that Ryuma's soul would awaken during the fight with Zoro. Now I would like to see him realize his situation, and purify himself. Not out of a sense of shame or to save face, but because he recognizes that he has been manipulated by Moria and wishes to return to his eternal repose. More than likely though, this would be construed as surrender; Ryuma would never give up, and Zoro probably wouldn't let him. Either way, when Ryuma shuttles off his undead coil I suspect he will entrust his sword to Zoro

It would certainly be tricky, but it might work out well if Oda emphasized the "I'm not afraid of death anymore" angle instead of the "yikes! you're so much stronger than me, I surrender!" angle.

I've looked through several chapters but can't find what I'm looking for unfortunately, so I can't quote it yet, but didn't someone once say that the reason why zombies keep coming back after receiving death-like injuries (not involving salt) is because they are "afraid to die" – in other words, now that they are animated again, after having been dead, they are terrified of losing this second chance at living? They will do anything to keep in this zombie state forever? If that's the case, then maybe Ryuma's awakening will be the realization that it's actually ok to die now: that he's not living an honorable "second life" here on Thriller Bark as Moria's henchman -- that it's better for him to be remembered (and to remember) only the glorious life that he lived before this. If that was the case, then I could also see him giving his sword willingly to Zoro -- after Zoro had proven to be a worthy opponent and after Zoro shows him a bit more respect.

I can see how these scenes might be interpreted as Zoro winning, but my gut instinct still says it's the opposite : that Zoro's been knocked over against his will and that he's been temporarily defeated by Ryuma. Ubiq suggested that this might be Ryuma's way of humbling Zoro for Zoro's lack of respect towards the legendary swordsman, and I like that idea. It seems to fit well with what we've seen so far. A temporary victory for Ryuma would be an excellent way to establish how powerful Ryuma is. Once that's been established then if/when Zoro finally does defeat Ryuma, it will be obvious that Zoro has reached a new level of ability, not just gained a new sword. Whereas if what we've just seen is Zoro's victory, that makes their battle almost too easy (though the 2nd half of the flashback could prove it wasn't) and I really don't want this battle to be too easy. It seems too significant for that.

So I think I'll stick with the idea that this is Ryuma's temporary victory until Oda proves otherwise, or until someone effectively convinces me otherwise.

smith

Oi ! That head thingy is used so that sweat wouldn't go into your eyes.

GoustiFruit

Maybe Ryuuma is burning because he just lost his shadow and/or is exposed to the sun where he is on the roof…

Greg

How is this any different from what you're doing?

Because when you said this:

So he just decided to jump through a wall and land flat on his back right? That makes no sense whatsoever.

You simply dismissed the theory without giving any time for an explanation.

game2005

Someone at GameFaqs came up with an idea how the fight would be. Many people thinks it's a great idea and very Oda-like.

Zoro loses on purpose to show Brooke something. for example he uses his broken sword to catch Ryuma off guard, showing Brookes you must take advantage what you have and not what you had.

Brooke takes his advise, and instead of fighting Ryuma with brute force like before, he uses the speed from his new, lighter body. He also take damages on purpose in order to hurt Ryuma.

Brooke is badly damaged but he doesnt lose any power, while Ryuma's bloody wounds are seriously effecting his abilities.

Brooke wins.

Zoro walks by the defeated Ryuma and says: "I told you, I wasnt going to take this sword from you. Im simply going to pick up this sword from your defeated body."

Franky asks why did Zoro lose on purpose, Zoro replies: "is not my fight to begin with"

Brook

@game2005:

Someone at GameFaqs came up with an idea how the fight would be. Many people thinks it's a great idea and very Oda-like.

Uhm yeah, this would be beyond awesome. And very in character for Zoro.

daniz

@game2005:

Someone at GameFaqs came up with an idea how the fight would be. Many people thinks it's a great idea and very Oda-like.

Indeed we are lucky that GameFaqs does not write One Piece…

Man that plot is really bad... You scare me when you say "very Oda-like"... really ain't joking...

On topic, I am agree with Mhe and dinty (expecially the "I'm not afraid of death anymore" angle)... as previously said, I really doubt Oda will waste Ryuma as a bad guy: he's been an hero for him and for us, so there's no way he's gonna "die" like all the other bad guys...

Rai

Half agreed with daniz about GameFAQs' ideas.
If it was by a different manga, surely that thing will be awesome if done right. But that simply doesn't fit.

mugiwara

I don't think that GameFAQs idea was all that bad, and it is somewhat in the spirit of One Piece. Nevertheless, I would prefer to see Zoro beat this legendary samurai on his own.

Gorlom

@GoustiFruit:

Maybe Ryuuma is burning because he just lost his shadow and/or is exposed to the sun where he is on the roof…

? zombies dont burn in the sun and if they loose their shadows they become soulles corpses… dont they?

fps_anth

Great chapter. Took me long enough to read it :P

I don't think Zoro is gonna lose. I expect something epic to happen next chapter. I'm talking two page spread-level of epic. Whether Zoro is gonna get pwned or he's the one delivering the pwnage, something big is gonna go down.

Just my two cents.

SabZ

I liked this chapter a lot. In one part, Usopp's face looked straight up bad-ass. Anyone who thinks he isn't braver now are just stubborn. I also liked the Franky and Brooke expressions. Oda suprised me with Zoro getting part-OWNED.

No new chapter this week, which is always annoying. Not suprised to see people jump at the chance to act like pricks when someone asked about it through a thread.

Urian

The only important Katana for Zoro is the one that he got from Kuina the others are less important.

Perhaps Santoryu Zoro will become with the time more focused in the one sword style since the most great Swordmen never used 2 or 3 swords, I am waiting for a talk from Ryumaa about why one-sword style is better than 2 or 3 sword style.

Gorlom

ambidexterity (beeing equally good with both the left or the right hand) is kinda rare. perhaps thats why none of the "most great" swordsmen never use 2 or 3 swords? What if Zoro can use both hands equally good? then there is no reason for him to focus on a onesword style.

$abZ: isnt it just that he got pushed into a corner? can we really rely on him to show guts the next time around? personally i think he will be running around screaming like allways. (and i really hope he does, I like Usopp as he is. If he suddenly got a complete change of personality i would probably loose a bit of interest in him.)

SabZ

@Gorlom:

$abZ: isnt it just that he got pushed into a corner? can we really rely on him to show guts the next time around? personally i think he will be running around screaming like allways. (and i really hope he does, I like Usopp as he is. If he suddenly got a complete change of personality i would probably loose a bit of interest in him.)

Yeah of course. I'm just saying he has got braver. Usually, even when pushed into a corner, he would shot more hints of fear. This time around he at one point seemed fearless.

But, as you said, he will be running around scared after the battle.

Eggherd

@Unrivaled:

People, we are talking about characters that are nowhere near Thriller Bark.

Ryumma is strong, yes, but Oda himself has already labeled the top three powers of the World and he has labeled the top THREE individulas from each powers!

Whitebeard (An Emperor) The Strongest Man in the World!

"Hawkeye's" Mihawk (Shichibukai) The Strongest Swordsman in the World!

Aokiji (Marines) The Marines Strongest!

Ryumma is strong but obviously not on any of these levels. Lets enjoy Ryumma's strength for now instead of comparing him to others powers that are obviously above him.

If you don't like Thriller bark, and think it's worthless, then wait 3 or 4 years for the crew to reach raftel, because apparently that's the only worthwhile part to one piece. Oda's has foreshadowed alot throughout the many adventures of the straw hat crew throughout one piece, Thriller bark is another one of those adventures. if you don't like it, maybe you don't like one piece?

*Meh*

You know, the more I think about it, the more I want 10t Hammer to return: when combined with the pepper sauce of Tobasco Star, Usopp can work crowd control like Luffy or Sanji. Too mean? Then how about Itching Powder Balloon to disable his foes? Of course, I realize all too well that nearly everything in Usopp's arsenal of tricks takes time to set up- time that he doesn't usually have. Even with quick wits and superhuman speed, Usopp will probably never dominate an opponent right from the start.

ITSALION

But I suppose that fits his established character structure: run away like a bleeding pussy, then pretend you were doing it as a distraction to set up some cool shit.

Which is fine by me.

Archibald Desmond Deus

@Greg:

Because when you said this:

You simply dismissed the theory without giving any time for an explanation.

I couldn't see a complete theory there. You just said Zoro fell out of the window by means other than Ryuuma. If you went into a little detail there it might have made more sense.

All you've really done by pointing out what I've said is that I believe what I'm writing. I don't know where you're getting "I'm peering into the mind of Oda and this is what I see". Maybe you're not looking at what I'm writing from the right angle. You need to quit being so concrete and look at it from another angle

Ao Kiji

The only important Katana for Zoro is the one that he got from Kuina the others are less important.

All his blades are important to him. Anything less wouldn't be the heart of a true swordsman..
Not to mention after they returned to Water 7, Zoro looked guilty and upset at letting the family heriloom sword be broken like that. Obviously they're not as important to him as Kuina'sbut they're still important to him.

w455up

I'm in agreement with the people who've said that Zoro has already won the battle. Of course, we cannot predict what Oda is thinking, and it is possible that Zoro has yet to defeat Ryuma, especially since he hasn't put on his bandanna.

However, the biggest reason to believe that what was witnessed in 466 is not just the middle of the battle is because of Brooke saying "The fight is finished". We could put out reasons of why the battle isn't over, like how Brooke has not seen Zoro fight before and therefore Zoro could still get up after being "defeated" by Ryuma. On the other hand, I don't think Oda would make Brooke say this line just to highlight how different he is from Zoro. It seems more like a set up to surprise people as to how Zoro defeated Ryuma, and give an even greater climax to the battle.

Unrivaled

@Eggherd:

If you don't like Thriller bark, and think it's worthless, then wait 3 or 4 years for the crew to reach raftel, because apparently that's the only worthwhile part to one piece. Oda's has foreshadowed alot throughout the many adventures of the straw hat crew throughout one piece, Thriller bark is another one of those adventures. if you don't like it, maybe you don't like one piece?

Care to show me in post where I said I don't like Thriller Bark?

I actually like Thriller Bark and the characters, we do have a Shichibukai and anh awesome samurai who can stick to you like cancer!

GoustiFruit

@Gorlom:

? zombies dont burn in the sun and if they loose their shadows they become soulles corpses… dont they?

They don't burn in the sun unless they have their shadow removed !
Also "flames" may be a visual effect to show that he's just been purified…

Gorlom

ok on the flames beeing a visual effect. (though i find it unlikely)

but why would Moria remove the shadow his zombies cast? and would that cause the original shadow stolen to be copied? if so why is he hunting new shadows at all instead of just copying absolom/ryuuma over and over?

or are you saying that zombies burn in the sun if they get purified? i find that highly unlikely, they are just regular corpses (still casting a regular "dead" shadow) they have no reason to burn.

ITSALION

Perhaps Zoro used some sort of "Flaming Onigiri" attack, like some of the fanboys have been talking about ever since Little Garden.

Kazidoom

I thought it was just his aura. Was there anyone saying Zoro was on fire when he used Asura? This is a shonen manga afterall.

Gorlom

kazidoom sorry what are you talking about? was Ryuuma using asura?

or what is that talk about zoros asura beeing on fire?

Greg

All you've really done by pointing out what I've said is that I believe what I'm writing

Actually in reading your posts from your first reply and on you'll find a huge difference. You went from saying why it couldn't be possible to actually exploring reasons and possibilities for it to be so.

Kazidoom

@Gorlom:

kazidoom sorry what are you talking about? was Ryuuma using asura?

or what is that talk about zoros asura beeing on fire?

Lots of people have said things like "Was Ryuuma on fire" "Did Zoro use a new attack" "It's dust around Ryuuma" but to me it was an aura around his body meant to show power. That's why I made a comparison to Zoro's Asura. I suppose you could say it's like Shank's spirit power as well. Well, that's just what I think.

ITSALION

An aura is quite possible, but it just seems odd to me that a reanimated zombie would have an aura.

Gorlom

i dont really have a problem with it beeing an aura but im still confused about:

Was there anyone saying Zoro was on fire when he used Asura?

are you wondering if anyone has said something about asura and fire or were you insinuateing something?

ITSALION

I guess if rubber people can become pirates, swords can turn into elephants, and psychotic art majors can shoot wax from their hands, a zombie samurai can have an aura.
@Gorlom:

are you wondering if anyone has said something about asura and fire or were you insinuateing something?

I think he's suggesting I shouldn't confuse auras with flames. Silly me.

Gorlom

well it can be either so i wouldnt count out flame just yet. (thats the prefereble explanation in most of the scenarios i find most likely to have happened)

theinvisibleworm

Zoro won, if he loses to another swordsman before facing off with Mihawk his vow is meaningless.

Bones wouldn't have said he'd never seen such a thing if it was the samurai's doing, as the samurai is using his moves. Zoro's the one that surprised him.

Gorlom

on the otherhand Brook was surprised at the thrust move that Ryuuma made.
i think his comment about it was "it doesnt look like that when i do it" or something similar.

Zoro will most likely win but we dont know if he has won already or if he will need to pick himself up and go at it again.

Brook

Well, we'll find out next chapter. Since the preview said Chopper's fight was next chapter, that COULD mean Zoro's fight is over already and we just don't know it. Either that or Oda has decided to finish Zoro's fight later.