Originally posted by neodragzero+May 3 2005, 03:47 PM–>QUOTE(neodragzero @ May 3 2005, 03:47 PM)
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well i only go by the manga,
and so far in my opinion zoro hasnt reached a level of skill that is higher than kenshin he may become better than kenshin in the future but as of now hes nowhere near ready just like with mihawk or not that vast diffrence as with mihawk but still a wide gap in skill.
EDIT and all the parts of Meis sig are cool B)
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What, the man on man part? Or the Zoro/Nami part? Or the part where I'm amused at your fear?
[snapback]41787[/snapback]It's more of the man on man part. It isn't simply that it shows two animated males kissing but the very fact that it just looks so out of place and the opposite of how these two guys interact with each other.
It's like seeing Luffy rip his hat in half, it just doesn't make sense.
In short, I'm just joking.
And wolfwood, I would think that Kenshin would have a hard fighting with Zoro since it is quite obvious that Zoro isn't no slouch either along with that he doesn't even have to touch Kenshin with his sword to do any damage.
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well ive always had a feeling that sanji and zoro had that kind of relationship ;)
and he sure is no slouch just that i dont think he can compete with kenshin in swordskill or speed just yet,
and if you look further back in this topic i explain why the air cut wont work on kenshin.
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And which page is this explanation?
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_Originally posted by wolfwood+May 3 2005, 06:28 AM–>QUOTE(wolfwood @ May 3 2005, 06:28 AM)double layer ?
is that the Futae no Kiwami your refering to :unsure:and there are plenty more vs match up you could do :D
and zoro was a lone wolf who fought for himself before he met luffy but now id have to agree that he fight for the good of his clan,
and that massive retard with a gun zoro defeated in the filler was a joke so if thats something to go by then zoro hasnt meet very strong opponents before he teamed up with luffy.
[snapback]41482[/snapback]Yeah, Futae no Kiwami.
I don't go by the anime, but I brought that guy up to say that Zoro probably had that kind of life.
Originally posted by Starlight@May 3 2005, 12:40 PM
**I still do not see how that makes him a better swordsman. And like i said Kenshin did not require much training due to the fact that his skills are almost at the max.[snapback]41610[/snapback]**
In a tough fight, it comes down to who wants it more. Zoro isn't bad, so Kenshin probably wouldn't have a strong desire to beat him. But Zoro lives to claim victory over such skilled guys.
@May 3 2005, 02:42 PM
**So you are telling me that Kenshin has the endurance and ability to tackle through 50 ships with ease. You are now just making stuff up.[snapback]41710[/snapback]**_
Y'know, I'll actually side with the "Kenshin group" on this one. Arlong was able to chew a pillar like carrots, while Luffy would've been lucky to break a layer of ice with his. But Luffy still pwned him like nobody's business. Though, I still think Mihawk would eat Kenshin alive.
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you didnt find it ?
ah well i could just go thru it again :Pyou remember an enemy from kenshin who goes by the name raijuuta who used the Izuna which was a air cut just like the ones zoro and mihawk use and remember what kenshin did when one of those were thrown at him ?
he held up his sword in front of him and the aircut was cut in two and left kenshin unscratched,and even thought zoros aircut maybe stronger its still the same principle which makes it useless against a man like kenshin who knows how to counter it.
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Actually, Ken had his hand cut. In the manga, anyway.
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well that was before he did that wasnt it ?
and that wasnt really a cut it was more of a scratch :P -
You do have a good point right there. But there is the great difference in that Zoro being able to sense the breath of things that surround him and putting his intent into his swords would make things pretty unfair. Unless Kenshin's sword doesn't have the breath.
The very fact that Zoro still was able to cut through the cloud weapon of one Eneru's men makes it questionable whether or not Kenshin's sword could stand up to such punishment.
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that is also something thats been discussed before :P
and i think almost everybody must admit that kenshins sword is top notch a truly great sword that ranks among the best whilst zoros have two that arent bad but still not the best and one who is indeed a good sword a really good one in fact but still below the top level.
so if it would come down to sword quailty kenshin would win but then again i dont think that will be what settles that match.
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Last time I check there was an entire ep that stated the importance and rarity of the weapons that Zoro uses, his swords are ranked among the best.
Zoro still has been able to cut through things made of steel and even tougher substances. Even though Kenshin's sword is of great quality, it still doesn't change what it is made of.
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well sorry to break your bubble :P but they arent that good compared to the best swords in onepiece but the one he got from kuina is a middle ranking sword in other words pretty good.
the other two arent all that crappy they are above avarage but still not great.
check the manga if you dont belive me ;)
and i really doubt that zoro would be able to cut apart kenshins sakabatou since its such a great sword built to withstand sword fights and if he could cut apart all the swords in the world which he would prove if he cut apart kenshins world class sword he would be totaly unbeatable by any swordsmen so no no i dont think he can do that neither do i think that swords being cut apart will settle this fight.
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Originally posted by wolfwood@May 3 2005, 05:10 PM
well sorry to break your bubble :P but they arent that good compared to the best swords in onepiece but the one he got from kuina is a middle ranking sword in other words pretty good.And how exactly was it said that Zoro's sword was only a middle ranking. It was never even said that there were swords that actually surpass Zoro's besides Mihawk claiming to have the strongest sword in the world. You also need to realize that this is a world wide scale while Kenshin's sword is only compared and rank to a single country.
**the other two arent all that crappy they are above avarage but still not great.
check the manga if you dont belive me ;)**
The other two are above average, but it doesn't mean that you automatically degrade to being insignificant. If I remember right there were only three cursed swords that were ever made which is quite a rarity in itself.
and i really doubt that zoro would be able to cut apart kenshins sakabatou since its such a great sword built to withstand sword fights and if he could cut apart all the swords in the world which he would prove if he cut apart kenshins world class sword he would be totaly unbeatable by any swordsmen so no no i dont think he can do that neither do i think that swords being cut apart will settle this fight.
[snapback]41902[/snapback]Sword fights in a more real world setting. How all swordsmen in the One Piece world are like are a different story. Rurouni Kenshin a lot more closer to reality that One Piece is when it comes to strength and abilities of human beings.
Kenshin's sword is still made of steel along with other swords being made of the same material so of course it would withstand being broken. But whether a steel sword can survive an attack that can destroy a sword made of material stronger than steel is a different story.
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well if i remember correctly it was said in the SBS in the manga that the the really great swords are placed into three classes whos name idont know in english
but in the swedish translation the first class is called kvalitets mide which is what zoros two other swords are which means they are good swords just not on par with the better and no where near as good as the top notch ones,
and the second class is in sweden called finmiden which is what zoros sword that he got from kuina is its a really great sword on all fronts but its still not as great as the top level ones,
and finaly there is the class which in sweden is called stor smide which are the swords that are the best of the best.
and kenshins sword was top ranked in the country of japan making it world class since its one of the finest swords ever made in that country and keep in mind that country happens to be japan which is a country whos people are really skilled at making swords
and still you cant deny that if zoro could just cut apart every steel sword in the world he would be an unbeatable swordsman which he isnt,
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Well I'm following the english translation that doesn't mention such a ranking system for One Piece.
There is still an obvious difference from a sword being one of the best of a country compared to one of the best in the world. It's quite obvious that there doesn't seem to be only one single place that has the creation of swords nor is it only the best swords come from one single country. I doubt Mihawk's sword comes from the same culture as Zoro's.
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well youve must have missed it then to bad if you cant trust me on this one since its the truth from oda himself :(
and no of course not there are great swords coming from every where in the world its just that the japanse are very proficent at making swords,
and ive never said it was the best in the world i just said that its considred world class which it is since its one of the best swords from japan,
just as if i was a top ranked fighter in sweden i would be considered world class since im the best that the sweden would have to offer…..
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The ranking system that you mentioned is something you remember within the confines of its translation in swedish so they are not from Oda himself just like the english version can also be flawed. For all we know my english translation may be wrong or yours being wrong.
There's a difference from being proficient and being the one country in the world to have the best swords in the world. I would think it a good idea to research the complete history of blacksmithing and swords before jumping to a conclusion. Taking things at face value doesn't always leave with you with the truth of things.
Even then, the world of One Piece is still quite different from our own. The very fact that a gun can somehow eat a devil fruit shows that you never truly know what methods exist to create something in the entire One Piece world.
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im sorry to say that i cant agree to that since our transalator Zimeon lundström is a great transalator and has translated onepiece up to the skypiea arc and so far it has been without a single flaw excatly as oda himself wrote it and i do not doubt his translations one bit and the SBS is written by oda himself our transalator just changes his word into swedish he doesnt add anything himself.
plus the one i read is an offical transalation is the one you read that to ?
and well id admit that i dont know the entire history of swords or blacksmithing as i suppose you do ?
but japan is still known for making great swords you can deny that fact no matter how hard you try :Pand i have so far not mentioned one word about it being the greatest in the world all ive said is that its is world class meaning that since its one of the greatest swords from the nation of japan its able to compete on a global scale.
EDIT oh by the way if your reading of the internet then i understand how you missed it since they dont scan that part…...
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I never put words in your mouth saying that you said it being the greatest in the world, just that you automatically skip over to it being simply world class.
I would like to ask you if this ranking system does truly exist then why exactly wasn't it mentioned the way that you do in the anime also. The last time I checked the anime itself wasn't known to skip over explanations that are originaly given in the manga when it comes to background facts on the grand line, log pose, etc.
I never said that Japan wasn't known for making great swords. I hope you do realize that Kenshin isn't exactly still reflective of reality in entirety unless there was the creation of a sword like Kenshin's in reality which I would find interesting.
Could you post an image or something that shows this part that you claim was cut out?
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well it wasnt in the anime cause the SBS isnt a part of the manga it is an all text column where the japanse readers send in their questions to Oda and its left out of the internet scans but you can find them in the onepiece books and in SBS one of readers asked about the sword classes and then everything that i said earlier was said by Oda.
and yes i realize that kenshin isnt reflective of reality but still its a japanse sword and in the world kenshin resides in its one of the greatest swords of that japan.
and if i had a scanner i would gladly post a page of the SBS for you but unfortunatly i dont have one…...
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I would finally like to ask if it ever was mentioned how many swords are there that actually exist for the third class.
But like I said, it isn't simply that whether or not Zorro uses a sword that is of inferior making to that of Zorro's opponent. The whole breath thing is still a factor that Kenshin never faced in battle.
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there are 12 swords that are considered the worlds greatest
and there are 21 swords that are in the class that kuinas sword is after that im not sure how many there are of the rest
and acctualy i was mistaken there are 5 classes but still kuinas sword is still middle ranking but that doesnt mean its a bad sword.
and sure its not over cause his opponent has better swords its just when people say that zoro would win cause he would easily cut apart kenshins sword i just have to point out that kenshins is of a higher quality and would there for probably not break.
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But it still doesn't matter if Kenshin's sword is of a higher quality. It was made quite obvious that Priest Oumu's sword was of higher quality than Zoro's since its creation was supposed to make superior to steel weapons and its other abilites but that still didn't mean anything to stop it from breaking from Zoro's attack.
This also brings another point to mind. The very fact that Zoro was able to defeat an opponent that was able to predict his every movement just shows how skilled he is.
I also would like to say it bit of weird thanks for unintentionally helping me reach a higher member ranking.
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I ONCE SAW THIS NEW SWORD CALLED KUKAI ICHIMONJI(Nothing to do with topic) MAYBE IT'S croocked line of harmony… <_<
ANy ways, Zoro is still the best…
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dont mention it was glad to help :P
and the same back at ya since partily thanks to you im almost at the beefcake rank i think that its 200 post.
and even if ohm was able to predict his movements he was still was an inferior swordsman he wouldnt be able to use the power of predictions as well as kenshin does thru his hiten mitsurgi ryu.
and that may very well be i dont remember to much of the skypiea arc ill have to check it up and get back to you on that one,
thought i sincerly dont think that any blade cutting will be what decieds the outcome of this battle.
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The mantra that Oumu and the other high priest of Eneru is based on sensing and predicting a person's movements from the sounds of their bodies. Basically the person's body gives them a heads up on what the person will do. It is not a guess, it is being completely able to tell what movement the person will do next.
Kenshin doesn't predict the movements of his opponents anywhere close to that of mantra since he wouldn't even be injured much less touched since he would know what movement the opponent would do next. Plenty of the fights Kenshin has had where received some damage proves this.
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i havent said that kenshins prediction abilitys are stronger thought i think they are kinda on the same level at least with the preists,
eneru on the other hand has a way stronger prediction capabilty,
all ive said is that ohm is an inferior swordsman who has no real capabilites in swordsmanship he relys only on his mantra and his so called sword and there for he cant use his predictions as well as kenshin could in a battle with zoro.
and even if he can predict excatly everything that ability is useless if you know whats coming but your to slow to do anything about it which would be the case with ohm vs kenshin.
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Kenshin's ability wasn't even based on being able to predict his opponents every movements. The last time I checked the Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu was based around god like speed, not god like prediction.
I would like to say that just because Oumu relied upon his sword and mantra doesn't make him any less of a swordsman. You might as well say that because Kenshin relies on Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu that he isn't much of a swordsmen. Oumu's sword, and most especially his mantra, are aspects of his overall fighting ability. It also was made quite obvious that learning how to use mantra wasn't exactly an easy thing to do with there only being two people that naturally know how to do it while the high priest seem to had to work at it.
It also is quite obvious that Zoro is faster than Oumu but that doesn' matter. Even if you are faster than someone you are practically still slow when that person knows where you are going and where you are going to attack them. The prediction makes it so that you don't have to worry about actually being faster, just that you will know where your opponent will move and what place they intend to attack.
I rather be able to completely predict where a person will attack than to simply be fast. Even if you are faster than me, I can still quite easily be in the right place at the right time to counteract your attack. The very thing that allow Zoro to be able to defeat Oumu was his technique that involved him not even having to touch Oumu with his sword.
Edit: I would also like to say on an off-topic than I am uber glad right now that OP 364 Null version is out now.
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im pretty sure that the the prediction thing is a part of the hiten mitsurugi ryu and its at least apart of kenshins fighting style and to prove it here is what shishio said in ep 54 during the fight with soujiro
-the battousais true strength lies his abilty to read movements and emotions and thinking ahead of his opponent.
in other words predicting what they will do based upon their movment and emotions.
that comparsion doesnt quite work since the hiten mitsurugi ryu is a swordstyle,
whilst the mantra has nothing to do with swordsmanship and the "sword" he weilds isnt really a sword in my opinion he basicly used it as a whip the whole fight or if not as a whip as a sheild i saw him use it as a real sword like 4 times in the fight which gave me the impression that hes not a good swordsman since he tends to avoids using a sword.
and im not saying hes weak just that he isnt a very good swordsman hence not very proficent in handling swords compared to zoro or kenshin.
and im talking about kenshins super godlike speed not zoros speed there is quite a diffrence since kenshins main power is his speed whilst zoros is his stamina and strength and i kinda think that two people who can predict each other kinda evens out since they both know whats going to happen.
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Except that it is not to the literal sense that Kenshin can predict his opponents every move, since if it that was truly true then Kenshin wouldn't have faced the amount of damage he did in the past, especially when it comes what happened you him when he fough against Enishi for the first time.
It still is stuck within terms of his ability as a samurai, not actually knowing ever single movement the opponent will make. He knows what his opponent will do based on seeing their movement and emotions while Oumu doesn't need either of these things to make a prediction ahead of time.
If Kenshin tries hitting Oumu on the chest, Oumu will well enough know that his chest is being targeted even before Kenshin gets that close to him.
Remember that fat guy from the trial of Orb who obviously shouldn't have any natural good speed whatsoever yet he was able to dodge the hits of Luffy quite easily, with it being obvious that Luffy was greatly faster and more manuervable than this guy. And this guy was only the weakest out of all of the high priest.
Speed is nothing when you absolutely know what direction the opponent will attack you.
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well in the enishi case i think it was just about that he was faster and knew kenshins fighting style,
its not that kenshin wasnt able to predict those moves just that he wasnt able stop them since enishi was better than him.
and those other times with small time villans he just seemed to be careless IMO.and no matter if kenshin need these thing to predict their moves the result is still the same isnt it since ohm has movements and emotions just like everybody else and he doesnt try to hide them so there should be no problem to predict him,
and if he tried to hit his chest kenshin would probably be able to predict that he would dodge and where he would dodge and be able to think ahead so as i said it kinda evens out in to a stand still and then kenshin would have an advantage given that hes helluva lot faster than ohm and a better swordsman to boot.
and just cause hes fat doesnt mean he has to be slow especialy in a manga….
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Except that Oumu's expression of emotion is pretty nill. Wouldn't exactly say that Oumu expresses any real emotion, except when his eyes were filled with tears but that's more contacted his religious fanatic personality.
It doesn't even out since Kenshin would still just send the signal from his body that he isn't going to attack Oumu's chest. Trying to use a fluke isn't going to work since you still are making a pre-conceived thought no matter how conscious or subconscious that you will or will not attack in a certain direction and target.
Imagine it like your body just always screaming out what will do do next, and after that, and after that before the person even moves to do what they truly have in mind to do. Unless Kenshin is able to make movements without any form of thought in mind, I talking at a level of thoughtlessness that Luffy expressed with Gomu Gomu no Baka, his mind and body will still reveal what he will do next.
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nope soujiro lacks emotions which makes him imposibel to read but ohm on the other hand does show emotions however little he does show them and isnt hiding them and that gives kenshin an insight in what he will do,
and i think you missunderstood me i wasnt trying to say that he would fake it,
he would make a cut but just that he would think 5-6 moves ahead just like he always does meaning that he knows excatly what he will do and he can predict where ohm will move which in my opinion puts them on even groundsand ohm as far as i know isnt a mind reader i thought he only read body movment so he wouldnt know what moves kenshin is planing to do til his body started performing them and here is where the speed plays in since if your unable to react the power of prediction is kinda nullified,
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Oumu doesn't read body movement. He reads the body itself. He doesn't require the person to actually move first for his prediction. That's how mantra works in an annoying way, that you only need to listen to the person's body for you to predict their movements. Eneru further elaborates on this with the fact that the opponent always has an intended movement already in mind which is given away by the sound produced from their bodies. Luffy was only able to be an exception to this rule with Gomu Gomu no Baka in reaching a level of thoughtlessness that you he can reach, yet he wasn't able to attack but only dodge.
Like I said, your body is practically screwing you over since it reveals and allows Oumu to map out how you will move your body.
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JUST THINK…if you compare Kenshin's world with the OP world..
Samurai X world is more on reality(except they jump real high)
OP world is very fictional...
In OP, Zoro is at least invincible...HE keeps coming back to life...He's like immortal...Even when a building crashed into him...(Mr.1 vs Zoro) -
Though Zoro isn't exactly invincible, he has had himself pwned by Mihawk and a certain member of CP9, his stamina and ability to take on as many hits as he had in the past is just plain inhuman. I doubt Kenshin would survive having an entire large concrete building collaspe on top of him much less surviving the amount of voltage that Eneru put into Zoro before the Eneru and Luffy first fought. The fact that Zoro was able to get back on his feet and had the energy to run and move along with doing another attack after receiving an amount of voltage that would destroy a human body just makes him look inhuman, in a good bad ass type of way.
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Originally posted by wolfwood@May 3 2005, 03:50 PM
EDIT and all the parts of Meis sig are cool B)
[snapback]41794[/snapback]Rawk.
You guys are, by the way, beasts. XD
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well, despite this site to be a one pice site…i voted Kenshin...i think he would be better though...he has more concentration! B) ;)
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Concentration?
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does anybody have a concentration then zoro. he is always in focus
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Originally posted by neodragzero@May 5 2005, 01:03 AM
**Oumu doesn't read body movement. He reads the body itself. He doesn't require the person to actually move first for his prediction. That's how mantra works in an annoying way, that you only need to listen to the person's body for you to predict their movements. Eneru further elaborates on this with the fact that the opponent always has an intended movement already in mind which is given away by the sound produced from their bodies. Luffy was only able to be an exception to this rule with Gomu Gomu no Baka in reaching a level of thoughtlessness that you he can reach, yet he wasn't able to attack but only dodge.Like I said, your body is practically screwing you over since it reveals and allows Oumu to map out how you will move your body.
[snapback]42449[/snapback]**alright then if you say so but could you tell me in which chapter the mantra is explained?
i would like to read up on it myself.and if he reads the sounds of your body why did it not work when luffy did the baka move ?
his body should still make that sound even if he didnt think it through shouldnt it ?and i will still standby that predictions can be beaten if you can manage hit them before they have time to counter,
with kenshins super godlike speed that cant be seen with the naked eye he should be able to do so.BTW whatcha mean with beasts :lol:
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No matter what if i now what your going to do and i have experince then it would be Quiet impossible to hit me
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acctualy just cause you know what i will do doesnt neccisarily mean that you would be able to counter my attack if i was helluva lot faster than you and was resonably close to you,
i mean you would see it coming but what does that help if you dont have time to block it?
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then whats the use of the power if you cant counter it. in Ohm case he wil attack since he has a long range plus i can move since ill see what you do once you think of it.
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well the mantra seems to have alot of uses but it still isnt unbeatable.
and you could move ahead all youd like but if i was way faster than you and could outspeed you easily it wouldnt really matter would it ?
besides kenshin can also predict his attacks so he could just as well avoid them using his speed and try to tire him out.
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yeah thats why i think Ohm use long range attack so he doesnt get tired. But what i dont get how did zoro attack him
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a long range attack still tires you out it may be a little less tireing but still,
and zoro just cut thru his cloud "sword" and ohm didnt predict it or he just didnt avoid it and he lost,
that is one way to do it simply over power him like zoro did or you could do as i said and out speed him,
those are the only ways that i can think of how to beat the mantra.
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I rest my case you got me.
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Originally posted by wolfwood@May 5 2005, 03:57 PM
**well the mantra seems to have alot of uses but it still isnt unbeatable.and you could move ahead all youd like but if i was way faster than you and could outspeed you easily it wouldnt really matter would it ?
besides kenshin can also predict his attacks so he could just as well avoid them using his speed and try to tire him out.
[snapback]42939[/snapback]**It still doesn't matter since Oumu will still know how Kenshin mill move. The idea behind it is that the opponent is being predicted to the point that they can't even dodge the attack.
Whether or not Kenshin can outspeed Oumu's sword is questionable. You have to realize that it doesn't matter how fast you are when you have a constantly changing thing that gets in your way. Oumu isn't going to get tired out when all he has to do really stay in one place. I doubt Kenshin can predict a constantly changing thing that has neither emotions or real intentions at all. It just changes into whatever shape it needs to for offense and defense.
The only reason Zoro was able to beat Oumu was because he used an attack that didn't require him to move forward while cutting through Oumu's sword and then Oumu through the creation of a strong force while Kenshin doesn't have such an attack.