Was it right for Zoro to bitch out Chopper during the Davy Back Fight arc for daring to have emotions? Was this a justifiable case of tough love, or was Zoro just being a prick?
Was Zoro in the right?
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yes its right, chopper should have trust in the others…
and chopper agrees with zoro anyways
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He has the mentality of a little kid, so of course he'd agree with what someone much older has to say. It's brainwashing.
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He should of beat Chopper instead. That would of got his message accross loud and clear.
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Of course Zoro was right.
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Yes, Zoro was right. While many people could be upset in that situation Chopper was making it seem like he didn't have much faith in the crew. Zoro straighted him out.
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Yeah, Zoro said it himself. By joining a pirate crew he should expect binds like this and tough it out. Chopper agreed and stuck it out. Zoro didn't intimidate him.
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Zoro is always right. Chopper I believe was crying though so he was intimidated. I would have liked to see Chopper go into monster point and kick all of Foxy's crew's ass.
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Yes, Zoro was right. While many people could be upset in that situation Chopper was making it seem like he didn't have much faith in the crew. Zoro straighted him out.
Didn't that message only slip in at the very end, though? For the most part it was just "You might never see us again, but stop crying and being such a pansy. You should be as manly as I am, Chopper."
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@Dr.:
Didn't that message only slip in at the very end, though? For the most part it was just "You might never see us again, but stop crying and being such a pansy. You should be as manly as I am, Chopper."
only to you…................
zoro is his role model anyways...so who cares
chopper doesnt mind -
@Dr.:
Didn't that message only slip in at the very end, though? For the most part it was just "You might never see us again, but stop crying and being such a pansy. You should be as manly as I am, Chopper."
you are a very weird person sir.
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Well Zoro was trying to say this was part of the whole ordeal. He has to swear loyalty to the crew for now since he's a part of it. Its just lowering his pride since hes crying because he's in a crew he doesn't want to be in. Plus, Zoro and co, will save them next match so there's no need to cry.
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The Davy Back fight is a serious matter. Zoro took it seriously. I fail to see the problem with that.
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While I think Zoro was being kinda harsh, Chopper had just gone through that whole thing of 'being a real pirate' in the previous arc, so I think what he said was justifyable.
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Well, the long and short of it is this: Zoro is not called 'Mr. Bushido' without cause. A samurai was expected to serve loyally, master his emotions, and face death without fear. They were also expected to support their family and serve as an example of manhood to their sons; it is in this regard that Zoro often comes off as cold, insensitive, and overbearing. Whether it's Chopper, Usopp, or Luffy, Zoro is not only older but also a bit more mature–in Luffy and Usopp's case, they may be likened to Zoro's younger siblings; in the absence of a father figure, he steps in to correct them for childish behavior. They cannot afford to behave childishly any more, as they have undertaken the task of becoming great men. This does not mean they cannot be childlike in their sense of wonder and joy of adventure; just the opposite--they need those traits in order to succeed. Zoro rarely contradicts this love of adventure. Perhaps because he is so often asleep when these adventures begin. (coincidence? maybe not..) In Chopper's case, he is four years Zoro's junior, and his sheltered childhood has left him in an emotional and sociological state even younger than that. Zoro thus treats him as a son, in some circumstances, and tries to pass on the teachings of bushido to him. There is an old cliche
: Sometimes, one must be cruel in order to be kind. I would take this clichea step further. One may be cruel in order to be kind, one cannot be cruel in order to be nice. Zoro is not nice; but he does try to be kind.I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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**I don't see Zoro as more mature than Luffy at all really.
And acting childish =/= immaturity**
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**I don't see Zoro as more mature than Luffy at all really.
And acting childish =/= immaturity**
It's more like Zoro "mans up" whenever the crew is in a crisis. He does what's for the greater good of the crew regardless of how he appears in the eyes of others.
Cause really, none of the Strawhats are "mature." They're like a pack of college students–they can act mature, but rarely do.
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Come to think about it, it seems like Zoro has taken Chopper under his wings in a sense, ever since the latter has joined the crew. And yeah, like someone said, he's pretty much Chopper's role model in terms of courage and maturity. So no, he's not being harsh, it's just his way of offering guidance.
I don't see Zoro as more mature than Luffy at all really.
And acting childish =/= immaturity
I suppose when compared to Luffy, Zoro's more mature in the area of keeping emotions in check. Other than that, you're right…
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It's more like Zoro "mans up" whenever the crew is in a crisis. He does what's for the greater good of the crew regardless of how he appears in the eyes of others.
Cause really, none of the Strawhats are "mature." They're like a pack of college students–they can act mature, but rarely do.
I don't think you understand what marturity means.
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Zoro is more mature about dealing with situations where one must put aside their feelings and act decisively; Luffy is more mature about considering which emotions allow one to grow and move on, and which ones are inappropriate to the current situation. They are both mature in their own way, and immature in other ways. This is part of the reason Luffy can so willingly trust Zoro with his life one moment, and try to kill him over a misunderstanding the next. It is the same reason Zoro obeys captain's orders, yet abuses Luffy for his stupidity as much as the rest of the crew does. Just as every member of their crew has some area which is their strength, so too do they have weaknesses. As friends and crewmates, they try to bolster each other through the trials and tribulations that test these weaknesses.
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Zoro is more mature about dealing with situations where one must put aside their feelings and act decisively;
yeaaha,because Luffy didn't put aside how he felt and beat Usopp into paste when he'd have rather just patted him on the back and said "come on man,let it gooo!"
I think u guys really aren't comprehending "maturity." zoro and luffy are both of the same level of maturity as far as I can tell. -
Stolen from…..my site. More specifically the update coming soon to the SH profile:
Zoro has little common sense but he knows exactly what it means to be a man. That is to say in the Marlboro Man, John Wayne, Charles Bronson kind of way. Probably more than any other character Zoro lives by the power of his heart and acts only as a man would. He takes responsibility for his actions no matter what they might be and he expects others around him to do the same. This is the root of almost every famous Zoro scene/line. THIS is why he's probably often compared to a samurai as bushido code demands such responsibility.
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Complain all you want about him being dumb or boring or forced cool, but moreso than any other Strawhat Zoro combats faggery.
Originally Posted by Battle Franky
Bad move, bub!
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I never understood why people believe Zoro is being "mean" whenever he has serious dialogue like that (DBF Chopper, Water 7 Robin, PEL Usopp).
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Meh – as always, you've said it much better than I can. And twice, too!
The only things I can add at this point that haven't been said already are:
(1) Zoro is often "severe", but he's almost never "sadistic". The only times his behavior verges on "sadism" is when he's surrounded by hundreds of inept villain lackeys and they're stupid enough to provoke him to fight after he's already warned them a few times (see: Whiskey Peak, Arlong Park, Skypiea).
(2) About Chopper : ok, Chopper has bitten Zoro, temporarily cut off Zoro's circulation as well as Zoro's ability to breathe. Choppy has jumped on Zoro's face, grabbed onto Zoro's leg, been carried on Zoro's shoulders, dragged on a "sled" through the desert by Zoro, been protected by Zoro, and probably done a dozen more things to Zoro that I'm forgetting, as well as receiving a dozen more special treatments from Zoro that I'm forgetting.
All things considered, I think being reprimanded once for falling to pieces when it was important to be strong (and at a time when Zoro was about the closest he's ever been to being 'drunk', so not fully in control of his actions or emotions either) is kind of small compared to all that.
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Personally I find all of this corny, tired, caricatural and flat out sad. Maybe because I'm expecting too much from a shonen like One Piece after reading a manga like Berserk where manliness and badassery are portrayed in a far more believable and subtle fashion, but both Chopper (or Usopp and Nami for that matter) getting stuck in his role of whining weakling and Zoro lecturing him about life while sounding like some douchebag who has a 10 inches thick broomstick stuck in his bunghole annoy me.
Afterall they're all pirates, they all fought against crazy monsters, went through the same life threatening adventures, so nothing justifies this kind of scenes, expect poor characterization from Oda.
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I don't think you understand what marturity means.
I find it diffcult to distinguish maturity from a bunch of characters that pop cartoony expressions every now and then.
Afterall they're all pirates, they all fought against crazy monsters, went through the same life threatening adventures, so nothing justifies this kind of scenes, expect poor characterization from Oda.
Fighting monsters means that it's unrealistic to fear abandonement? Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs says otherwise. Physical security and emotional security are different things.
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… where manliness and badassery are portrayed in a far more believable and subtle fashion, but both Chopper (or Usopp and Nami for that matter) getting stuck in his role of whining weakling and Zoro lecturing him about life while sounding like some douchebag who has a 10 inches thick broomstick stuck in his bunghole annoy me.
Afterall they're all pirates, they all fought against crazy monsters, went through the same life threatening adventures, so nothing justifies this kind of scenes, expect poor characterization from Oda.
I'm confused, Aldrich – does this mean that every character who has something inconsistent or flawed or jerky about him, or who doesn't meet some pre-established ideal about how a hero should act, is "badly characterized" (by the author) and not simply "not likable" (by the audience)?
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, or to force you to like a character that you obviously hate, but I'm just wondering if in your previous argument you're confusing your own feelings about what you want to see in a character in a character with some sort of objective ideal of what constitutes a good character in manga in general?
Personally, I like the fact that Zoro under-cooks or over-cooks nearly everything he does. To me that makes him more interesting and more human and more unpredictable than some idealized zen-bushido-warrior that may have been perfect for another manga (like RuroKen, for example), bt not for this one.
Then again, I'm probably biased in my reasoning too, because it's fairly obvious from my sig and my posts where my sympathies lie.
Anyways, just throwing this out here as something to think about.
Feel free to disagree, agree, or slam me with invective.Peace.
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It means that when your only saving grace as a character basically consists of "AT LEAST HES NOT A FAGGIT!!!1" then you're just a notch above Sasuke in the worthless manga archetypes scale.
I understand Oda has to keep every Strawhat simple to identify and clear cut, as he has to make them interact on a weekly basis so they must have very basic, one sided personalities. I just find it slightly tiresome after 450 chapters +. I'd like some change.
Oh yeah, if your question was basically if I think I consider my opinion to be the universal truth, then no, of course not. It's just IMHO, I think that, etc etc.
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I find it diffcult to distinguish maturity from a bunch of characters that pop cartoony expressions every now and then.
Then you don't know what maturity means.
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Complain all you want about him being dumb or boring or forced cool, but moreso than any other Strawhat Zoro combats faggery.
Bahaha, I don't care for Zoro, but I love this statement.
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Then please explain, instead of typing one sentence of how you know better then me. It's really aggravating.
**I can't really explain it well, aside from the dictionary definition.
I'll just say that just because someone acts goofy 99.9% of the time doesn't mean they aren't mature. Likewise, someone who acts serious most of the time isn't necessarily mature.**
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**I really explain it well, aside from the dictionary definition.
I'll just say that just because someone acts goofy 99.9% of the time doesn't mean they aren't mature. Likewise, someone who acts serious most of the time isn't necessarily mature.**
True, but maybe I didn't explain the college students I know very well. Too often I see those guys doing things like throwing food in the hallway one minute, then complaining about how crappy the building is the next. Of course, those are freshmen.
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It means that when your only saving grace as a character basically consists of "AT LEAST HES NOT A FAGGIT!!!1" then you're just a notch above Sasuke in the worthless manga archetypes scale.
To be honest, it wouldn't bother me if Zoro was gay – but, you're not using the word "FAGGIT" in the literal sense, are you? You're using it to mean "at least [character x] doesn't run around like a chicken with his head cut off, waiting for someone to save him."
Hmmmm.
I think Zoro has more to offer the Strawhats then that. And I also wonder: how does your "at least hes not a faggit" argument not apply to Vice Admiral Doberman? What more do we know of VAD besides his face and name and the fact that he stood his ground (literally, he didn't move at all) instead or running around like headless chicken when Enies Lobby was being besieged?Arghh, now I'm sliding down the slope towards a show-down with you.
I didn't want that to happen, I've seen the results of it too many times already.
Ok, rewind, trying to climb back up into the discussion again:I just find it slightly tiresome after 450 chapters +. I'd like some change.
How would you like him to change?
And I mean this seriously – not being ironic or joking here -- I honestly would like to know how you want him to change. What would make Zoro more interesting/appealing/enjoyable as a character to you?Oh yeah, if your question was basically if I think I consider my opinion to be the universal truth, then no, of course not. It's just IMHO, I think that, etc etc.
I didn't mean it quite as extreme as that: we're all entitled to our opinions, and yours is just as valid as mine. I was just curious if you'd considered that perhaps your dislike of the personality-type exemplified in Zoro's character what what was driving you to hate Zoro, and not some actual defect in Oda's ability to make a wide variety of characters: some likable, some less so.
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To be honest, it wouldn't bother me if Zoro was gay – but, you're not using the word "FAGGIT" in the literal sense, are you? You're using it to mean "at least [character x] doesn't run around like a chicken with his head cut off, waiting for someone to save him."Hmmmm.
Actually I was referring to Bucc's post that basically says "Zoro is boring, forced and unoriginal but at least he fights faggotry".
I think Zoro has more to offer the Strawhats then that. And I also wonder: how does your "at least hes not a faggit" argument not apply to Vice Admiral Doberman? What more do we know of VAD besides his face and name and the fact that he stood his ground (literally, he didn't move at all) instead or running around like headless chicken when Enies Lobby was being besieged?
I just like his design. And the fact I childishly like obscure characters that most people don't care for. Which is probably also one of the reasons why I dislike most of the Strawhats.
How would you like him to change?
And I mean this seriously – not being ironic or joking here -- I honestly would like to know how you want him to change. What would make Zoro more interesting/appealing/enjoyable as a character to you?Show some weakness maybe? Some fear? Be a little bit more goofy? The same way I'd appreciate if Usopp could show some testicular fortitude from time to time and not just be the buffoon and the kid of the band.
I didn't mean it quite as extreme as that: we're all entitled to our opinions, and yours is just as valid as mine. I was just curious if you'd considered that perhaps your dislike of the personality-type exemplified in Zoro's character what what was driving you to hate Zoro, and not some actual defect in Oda's ability to make a wide variety of characters: some likable, some less so.
I don't dislike manly characters, Zoro is supposed to be the manly man of OP but I think a guy like Franky does a better job than him at being the "alpha male" of the manga. Just like I said Gutts seem to be a far more believable and balanced character than a guy who's basically a bipedal stereotype.
I mean the Chopper scene with the bottle of alcohol and the exaggerated facial expressions was hilarious. I almost expected him to start pounding on his chest shouting ook ook.
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Yah Zoro is a big meanie :(
No seriously though, I always pictured Zoro feeling like a babysitter in a daycare for extremely hyperactive children(the children being the other SH save for Robin always running off on their own and getting into trouble) and since he saved almost all of them atleast once(save for luffy & Sanji), he might've felt pissed at Chopper's anxiety and mistook it for distrust and went all "OMG SHUT UP YOU BIG BABYHEAD YOU KNOW YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR WITH ME RAOOGHRAAAAHGA".
So it was kinda justified. Though he did sound like a prick.
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Seriously, how did Zoro sound like a prick? Was he supposed to soften it up for Chopper to make him feel better? That wouldn't been just stupid.
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I just like his design. And the fact I childishly like obscure characters that most people don't care for. Which is probably also one of the reasons why I dislike most of the Strawhats.
Nah, it's not childish, it's just wanting to have a piece of something that nobody else has yet. As best I know, you're the only one who has a Doberman avatar, and I remember not to long ago when another member tried to use VA Doberman as his avatar and was told by several other members "no, you can't use it, that's Aldrich's". That wouldn't have happened if someone decided they wanted a Zoro avatar .
Show some weakness maybe? Some fear? Be a little bit more goofy?
I think he does show weakness, but just in a different way than most : by training obsessively. It's as if he's terrified of not being strong enough to face any enemy he meets. So he has to do something with all that nervous energy. Why not wear himself out training, since training will also make him stronger, which will also help to end the vicious circle of anxiety about not being strong enough.
I can't take credit for that theory though – it was Sanji who first suggested it. And since Sanji's a very perceptive guy (when he's not blinded by lust), I think there's a lot of truth in it. Here's Sanji's version:
http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceManga/onepiecechapter179.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3490
http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceManga/onepiecechapter179.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3491Sanji's insults usually have some truth in them. That's why they get to Zoro so strongly – it wouldn't affect Zoro so strongly if he didn't think that Sanji might actually have a point.
Another good example of weakness is on the bridge of Enies Lobby:
I could be wrong in my interpretation of this, but when I look at Zoro's expression in that picture, I see someone who's badass facade has just been ripped in half by anger, self-doubt and feelings of uselessness. He's just lost Yubashiri ("I feel more secure with three swords" he said back in Loguetown), he's just found out that his captain's in trouble, and even though he's more-or-less the "first mate" of the crew, he can't think of what to do to save Luffy. And because of that, he completely looses his cool:http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemangav-2/428.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9265
Also look at his two expressions in this scan – the first one where he's yelling at Usopp, and the second one where Usopp is yelling at him:
http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemangav-2/428.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9268
In the first he's overcompensating and in the second one he looks as spooked as a deer. Have we ever seen him look as weak as he does in that second picture?
I guess what I'm tying to say is that I think Zoro has a lot of moments where he's shown fear, vulnerability and weakness – it's just that they aren't stereotypical moments (that is to say, he's not raising his fists skyward and yelling "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" when something tragic happens, like they all do in Star Wars, etc), so it's easy to overlook those moments.
You're right about the lack of goofiness though -- I miss that about him, all the stupid things he did when he was training in Drum and so on. But it makes sense that as he becomes more experienced and more like an adult, that goofy side of him starts to fade, because you can't really be a master swordsman and a goof at the same time now, can you? Though admittedly, it would be fun to see. I think this is why Oda has been playing up the "lost" joke so much since Skypiea: because it's the one goofy thing that Zoro can still be prone to doing even as an ultra-serious adult.
I don't dislike manly characters, Zoro is supposed to be the manly man of OP but I think a guy like Franky does a better job than him at being the "alpha male" of the manga.
I agree! Franky is a "people" person. He's charismatic and friendly, but can kick ass when necessary. He's also older than the rest of the crew and has the affections of the strongest female. This makes him the Alpha male by default. Zoro may be strong, but he hasn't got the other necessary criteria for Alpha-doghood yet.
I mean the Chopper scene with the bottle of alcohol and the exaggerated facial expressions was hilarious. I almost expected him to start pounding on his chest shouting ook ook.
Yes, and that would have been keeping in character with someone who reads "Power Aesthetics" and makes Tarzan yells when he swings from a jungle vine and who is prone to giving ridiculous straight-faced speeches about how he'd rather die than give up his pride or manhood. But can you see how that's one layer above what he really is? How the real Zoro is not a badass, but an anxious loner who is trying very very very hard to make everyone (including himself) believe that he's a true badass. It's similar to what Usopp's doing in order to become a brave warrior of he sea, except that Usopp's fake persona is easier to detect because it's more exaggerated than Zoro's.
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after reading a manga like Berserk where manliness and badassery are portrayed in a far more believable and subtle fashion
Please don't try to make an argument about how "subtle" Berserk is as far as manliness when the protagonist carries a GIGANTIC phallic symbol around the entire series..
I like Berserk,bur srsly..Guts and Zoro are so different they're almost opposites, except for the occasional anti-hero sneer and ass whooping montage on faceless NPC's.
BTW Zoro did act goofy early on in the series. He was the first character to constantly burst into histerical laughter at Luffy's antics. As the series went on, I guess he got sick of all the sillinesst ha goes on with Luffy,Uso and Chopper.Also Zoro was afraid Mr.1 was going to kill him right before he does ShiShi SonSon. Which manga are you reading? Zoro is almost ALWAYS scared that he won't make it in time or be able to protect one of the weak weak trio and they'll get killed because of his lack of skill.
Zoro was a kewl take on the badass anti-hero in that he was different and had some interesting character dynamics up to SKypiea. During that arc his personality basically got watered down to the most generic and least heard from of the Strawhats after Robin. Who after Water 7 is now way more active and finally has definition as a character and more of a place in the crew.
Why do u want Usopp to be more like Zoro and Zoro to be more like Usopp? If Usopp acted anymore badass he'd be pointless because he would have achieved his dream and could go back home already. The sogeking thing was dangerously close to that. If Zoro was a coward he wouldn't be able to acheive his dream. He gets scared all the time, he just shows it in more subtle ways,dude.
 
