About what shanks and garp said and asura

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@Radical:

sorry I replied to his post

Keeping up with gear 2nd means nothing whats so ever.

Oh but it does if you can't keep up with someone you're dead.

In addition kaku hardly used soru.He was a rankyaku master.So saying he dismissed soru holds no water and redeemed meaningless.

Zoro had no trouble with soru after blocking it enough times kaku just stopped using it, he must have noticed it was useless. Speaking of rankyaku zoro blocked all of them and casually dismissed the ultimate rankyaku attack "amanedachi" with a slash from asura.

@AD-HD:

Can Zoro destroy a ship without his swords? I don't think so.

I usually don't answer you but this is ridiculous, take away luffy's Devil fruit let's see how far he gets.

Main villain is always strongest one. I can't believe what you are saying. That Lucci is actually weaker than Zoro? Hahhaa. Remeber that what happened in Water 7. Zoro got owned by Lucci. Have you forgotten that?

And This!?! do you have a selective memory? Didn't you see luffy get IMPALED and thrown out like trash?

[Phenomenol]

@Radical:

]@PHENOM

Yes he masterd soru with gear 2nd.What does that have anything to do with his natrual fighting ability(which is equal to zoro)upgrading?

The problem is that you guys have it engraved in your brain that gear 2 is soru. And it is far from that.If you read the manga correctly you would know that soru is a technique that makes you run faster.A technique.Gear 2 made luffyy move like soru but increased the speed and the velocity of his moves.
Pretty much luffy times 2.

Blueno: {He has mastered "Soru"…}
Hahh.
Hahh...
{And is using it to move...!!!}
"Air Door"

• Page 210 -

Blueno: Hahh...
Hahh...
{This can't be happening...!!!
...More important than using "Soru"... he managed to strengthen his body to the point where he could easily perform it.

Luffy: When it looks like you guys are disappearing,
I noticed you were kicking the ground over ten times in an instant.
And now I've got the trick down. It's nice to know movement abilities like that.

Luffy is telling you that he is using Soru in Gear 2! CP9 also uses attacks with Soru as well. Something Zoro was already handling. You need to read the manga correctly.

[Radical jack]

Luffy is telling you that he is using Soru in Gear 2! CP9 also uses attacks with Soru as well. Something Zoro was already handling. You need to read the manga correctly.

yes..he uses soru in gear 2nd.Again as I posted before what does that have anything to do with his attacks and reaction time upgrading,Speed and velocity wise.

Oh but it does if you can't keep up with someone you're dead.

Buggy,mr 1,crocodile,lucchi, almost evry villian all kept up with their opponents. they still lost.whats your point?

I usually don't answer you but this is ridiculous, take away luffy's Devil fruit let's see how far he gets.

my goodness,this reply makes you fail so much.

Im taking a break

[Final End]

Jet Pistol, Jet gatling-gun… etc. All those were stronger than his regular attacks.

AD HD once again stop being repugnant…......Zoro has stronger attacks aswell. I could name some for you but I would be acting repugnant.

Can Zoro destroy a ship without his swords? I don't think so.

Zoro just cut a fast moving train in half….....

Main villain is always strongest one. I can't believe what you are saying. That Lucci is actually weaker than Zoro? Hahhaa. Remeber that what happened in Water 7. Zoro got owned by Lucci. Have you forgotten that?

LOL luffy got "owned" aswell….......

I repeat, Luffy wouldn't have won that battle without his Gears. And Gears are something that Zoro can't do.

Zoro and his asura?….... how is luffy going to defend himself from Zoro technique?.......and Zoro was not able to do any soru attacks but he still beat Kaku.

And Zoro couldn't do it in Whiskey Peak so why now?

Luffy could not do any thing to Zoro back then or now.

[Phenomenol]

@Radical:

yes..he uses soru in gear 2nd.Again as I posted before what does that have anything to do with his attacks and reaction time upgrading,Speed and velocity wise.

Funny how you TRY and change the argument, All Soru users can do that!!!! did you not see the CP9!!! Zoro casually handled all of those techniques, Luffy is no different. matter of fact he has no balance and Lucci lets him no this.

[SabZ]

@regasatanum:

My school exam i scored 91, my friend scored 100. We both got grade A.
In term of grade. A = A. We are equal.
In term of score 91 <> 100. We are not.

Exactly my point. Those guys need to realise how charts work.

Until they can prove that Oda has them 100% equal… including individual figures such as you ACTUAL examination score, then they can't PROVE Luffy = Zoro.

[Radical jack]

This post is deleted!

[Radical jack]

@$abZ:

Exactly my point. Those guys need to realise how charts work.

Until they can prove that Oda has them 100% equal… including individual figures such as you ACTUAL examination score, then they can't PROVE Luffy = Zoro.

Sabz cover me ILL be gone for a while

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@Radical:

Buggy,mr 1,crocodile,lucchi, almost evry villian all kept up with their opponents. they still lost.whats your point?

They lost because either their technique, fighting ability, stamina or will was inferior. Although if they couldn't keep up with their opponent they would have lost straight away.

How can't you see that?

my goodness,this reply makes you fail so much.

WHAT!!? Yeah taking swords away from a SWORDSMAN is fine, but taking a away a DEVIL FRUIT USERS DEVIL FRUIT makes you fail?

You need to start reading the manga instead of using poor comeback, which are constantly proven wrong

Im taking a break

You need one your comebacks are getting worse and worse, hopefully you'll come back fresh.

@$abZ:

Exactly my point. Those guys need to realise how charts work.

Yes we need to realise 6 doesn't equal 6

Until they can prove that Oda has them 100% equal… including individual figures such as you ACTUAL examination score,

So if they both had 60% you'd agree they are equal, but both of them getting 6 doesn't make them equal. You need to rethink your approach

then they can't PROVE Luffy = Zoro.

It's a fact 6=6, you need to prove 6 doesn't equal 6(which is impossible)

[Phenomenol]

@$abZ:

Exactly my point. Those guys need to realise how charts work.

Until they can prove that Oda has them 100% equal… including individual figures such as you ACTUAL examination score, then they can't PROVE Luffy = Zoro.

Weak…just weak....such a weak argument.

Noone cares waht you guys got on your test if you got 100% and your friend got 91% means that you are NOT given the same grade therfefore I am equal.

SIX is the highest number on the chart for SH's. It is not 100%-90%, you fail again!

[SabZ]

@ONEinchPUNCH:

So if they both had 60% you'd agree they are equal, but both of them getting 6 doesn't make them equal. You need to rethink your approach

So A = A? For the dude who did the exam?

6 and 60 are different numbers. 6 has more content in it… because it's a division of 6. If you divide something by 6, you get 6 large pieces. If you divide it by 60, you get 60 small pieces... and if Luffy and Zoro fall into one small piece, they are more likely equal. But if they fall into a large piece, there's a chance of them not being 100% equal, because of the range of individual figures within that numbers.

That is how the chart does not prove Luffy = Zoro by 100%.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

So A = A? For the dude who did the exam?

A is not a number A is maybe 85%-100%, 6 is 6, 10098 is 10098. Why are there numbers in the book and not letter?

Maybe because numbers are specific? Your argument is weak.

6 and 60 are different numbers. 6 has more content in it… because it's a division of 6. If you divide something by 6, you get 6 large pieces. If you divide it by 60, you get 60 small pieces...

ou don't need to divide numbers you need to READ 6=6

and if Luffy and Zoro fall into one small piece, they are more likely equal. But if they fall into a large piece, there's a chance of them not being 100% equal, because of the range of individual figures within that numbers.

Oda mentions nothing of pieces, all he says is 6=6.

That is how the chart does not prove Luffy = Zoro by 100%.

No that is your theory on how you can make a chart have more depth, obviously Oda feels depth isn't needed. He proves this with a simple 6=6

[SabZ]

@ONEinchPUNCH:

A is not a number A is maybe 85%-100%, 6 is 6, 10098 is 10098. Why are there numbers in the book and not letter?

Are you serious?

A, B, C, D, E, F, U = 7. Let's say the most marks you can get on the exam are 100. 100 divided by 7 = around 14.2 ish. So 85.8 and over equals A. There you go, it can be reformed so it matches your chart.

So Oda added all the SH PLs up, divided them by 6, and classed them. Luffy could have been stronger and got into 6 easier than Zoro. Oda doesn't show his whole working out to the fans, he shows the final product…

The exam papers do the same thing, they don't show the score, but the grade.

That is the way Oda's chart is not fit to 100% PROVE that Luffy = Zoro. Please explain why it would be 100% PROOF.

If there was a quote in the manga saying they were exactly equal, then there's no backfiring for that. There also isn't a backfire to your theory if Luffy and Zoro finish a battle fairly, and draw. But the chart (which is past tense anyway) can be proven a lot more difficult than you interpret it. Oda is difficult.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

Are you serious?

A, B, C, D, E, F, U = 7. Let's say the most marks you can get on the exam are 100. 100 divided by 7 = around 14.2 ish. So 85.8 and over equals A. There you go, it can be reformed so it matches your chart.

Why add your own personal theory to a chart written by someone else? If Oda wanted it to be like that I'm pretty sure he would have done that. The fact he uses 6 (awhole number, no decimals) means he isn't interested in percentages.

So Oda added all the SH PLs up, divided them by 6, and classed them. Luffy could have been stronger and got into 6 easier than Zoro. Oda doesn't show his whole working out to the fans, he shows the final product…

And you know this because you went to school with him? He used 6 because he used 6, no-one knows why, all we know is oda used 6 (a whole number) so we have to go by WHOLE NUMBERS. any other THEORIES are just PURE SPECULATION

The exam papers do the same thing, they don't show the score, but the grade.

If you want to see your score nothing is stopping you, luffy and zoro had a look. They both got 6 out of 6, a whooping 100%

That is the way Oda's chart is not fit to 100% PROVE that Luffy = Zoro. Please explain why it would be 100% PROOF.

No that once again is your THEORY, 6=6 so luffy=zoro

If there was a quote in the manga saying they were exactly equal, then there's no backfiring for that. There also isn't a backfire to your theory if Luffy and Zoro finish a battle fairly, and draw. But the chart (which is past tense anyway) can be proven a lot more difficult than you interpret it. Oda is difficult.

That would just convince you, Mr I agree with everyone 100% percent of the time and that other guy (forgot the name)

As far as CANON is concerned they are equal.

[SabZ]

Oh, so I assume you went to school with him then? Or are you a mind reader? Hey, I know… you can see in the future and you saw Luffy vs Zoro on Raftel with several million quotes from Nami and Sanji saying "Omg they're equal! You were right OIP!"

No. The chart, as I've explained, may have been a detailed analysis dimmed down OR a rough overview. MAY have been... unless you go ask Oda yourself. Until you haven't, you're speculating that Oda didn't dim down his detailed analysis in THAT chart.

Wait 'till a quote from the manga comes out. These charts were produced in ways that we can only guess... making them worthless if you want to prove that Luffy and Zoro are equal... um, by 100%. XD.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

Oh, so I assume you went to school with him then? Or are you a mind reader? Hey, I know… you can see in the future and you saw Luffy vs Zoro on Raftel with several million quotes from Nami and Sanji saying "Omg they're equal! You were right OIP!"

Wrong

I did something you can't seem to do, I read it.

No. The chart, as I've explained, may have been a detailed analysis dimmed down OR a rough overview. MAY have been… unless you go ask Oda yourself. Until you haven't, you're speculating that Oda didn't dim down his detailed analysis in THAT chart.

Wrong

I read it, didn't speculate

Wait 'till a quote from the manga comes out. These charts were produced in ways that we can only guess… making them worthless if you want to prove that Luffy and Zoro are equal... um, by 100%. XD.

A chart made by the guy who write the manga is good enough, if you want to wait for a quote you do that. Although to continue saying they aren't equal is speculation.

[SabZ]

That's the weakest reply from you yet.

The chart has made it more likely that Luffy = Zoro, but it hasn't 100% proved it… because I've explained already that you are speculating that Oda didn't dim it down from a detailed analysis like I showed.

I'm waiting for 100% proof... with what you've got, the chance of Luffy > Zoro, or the other way around, is likely.

[Phenomenol]

@$abZ:

That's the weakest reply from you yet.

The chart has made it more likely that Luffy = Zoro, but it hasn't 100% proved it… because I've explained already that you are speculating that Oda didn't dim it down from a detailed analysis like I showed.

I'm waiting for 100% proof... with what you've got, the chance of Luffy > Zoro, or the other way around, is likely.

Actually that was a good reply form OIP!

The chart says that both Luggy and Zoro strength equals six, do you understand the manga backs that up when they fight they come out as six? NOONE is speculating what Oda had in his mind but you, we see what Oda put on PAPER and that is what we are going by. You on the other hnd refuse to beleive a chart that is accurate to the manga.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

That's the weakest reply from you yet.

Reading a chart is weak?

The chart has made it more likely that Luffy = Zoro, but it hasn't 100% proved it… because I've explained already that you are speculating that Oda didn't dim it down from a detailed analysis like I showed.

No I'm just reading it, you are speculating Oda is using your theory.

I'm waiting for 100% proof… with what you've got, the chance of Luffy > Zoro, or the other way around, is likely.

6 > 6 isn't possible, 6 can only equal 6.

Why don't you wait for some proof of your theory in the yellow book? Because right now there isn't any there are only Oda's direct whole numbers.

[SabZ]

Fuck the yellow book. I'm waiting for a quote in the manga. For all I know, the yellow book could be another rough overview. Stop raping the charts.

What I've said has explained how it backfires in fully proving that Luffy and Zoro are equal. You haven't replied to attack my theory, proving it wrong or nothing. Because you can't.

Stop saying the same things you've been saying from the start… XD, seriously... attack my theory.

I'm speculating... but I've also proved that you are too.

I've PROVED that the chart doesn't fully justify the answer... you've proved that you can't notice flaws in your own theories.

Wait for a quote in the manga... stop speculating that Oda didn't do a full analysis and dimmed it down into a chart.

And Phenomenol... you say the same things, which have gotten you nowhere for too long. XD.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

Fuck the yellow book. I'm waiting for a quote in the manga. For all I know, the yellow book could be another rough overview. Stop raping the charts.

You can't ignore the authors words.

What I've said has explained how it backfires in fully proving that Luffy and Zoro are equal. You haven't replied to attack my theory, proving it wrong or nothing. Because you can't.

No you need to prove yours right, Oda's is right by default it's his story.

Stop saying the same things you've been saying from the start… XD, seriously... attack my theory.

Nothing wrong with your theory but Oda's is canon yours isn't

I'm speculating… but I've also proved that you are too.

If reading a chart written by Oda is speculating, then yes I'm speculating

I've PROVED that the chart doesn't fully justify the answer… you've proved that you can't notice flaws in your own theories.

No you haven't your guessing how Oda may have done it.

Wait for a quote in the manga… stop speculating that Oda didn't do a full analysis and dimmed it down into a chart.

The red book is quote by Oda.

And Phenomenol… you say the same things, which have gotten you nowhere for too long. XD.

He just tells you what is needed, 6=6

[SabZ]

The same thing again. Yet to attack my theory (except for false words). I've explained how the chart doesn't FULLY justify Luffy = Zoro.

6 = 6, cannon, author… I've countered all of these. 6 = 6... I explained the possible chart production. You've speculated on how it WAS produced. I've speculated too... but in order for me to prove that you have also speculated, I did too. It's like an opposite version, if you think about it. You acted as if you KNEW the chart was produced without any working out or inner analysis.... and I speculated the opposite, which proved you didn't KNOW at all, and were merely speculating like I was.

So, word of advice from me, just... wait.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

The same thing again. Yet to attack my theory (except for false words). I've explained how the chart doesn't FULLY justify Luffy = Zoro.

The same thing again. I've explained how your theory is just a theory, Oda mentions nothing from your theory in his chart making yours speculation

6 = 6, cannon, author… I've countered all of these. 6 = 6... I explained the possible chart production.

Yeah with theories saying 6 isn't 6

You've speculated on how it WAS produced.

No I read it

I've speculated too… but in order for me to prove that you have also speculated, I did too. It's like an opposite version, if you think about it. You acted as if you KNEW the chart was produced without any working out or inner analysis.... and I speculated the opposite, which proved you didn't KNOW at all, and were merely speculating like I was.

Where on earth are you getting this? I read a chart why would I need to speculate anything. You on the other hand have been speculating quite alot instead of simply reading the chart.

So, word of advice from me, just… wait.

I'm fine with the author saying they are equal, you are the one who needs to wait.

[SabZ]

HAHA…

that all you got? Seriously, what you're saying just makes my theory look better. "No I read it"... read it, but didn't think to carefully enough about how it came down.

Read the whole of the previous page... it all crushes your last few posts.

Uh... I'm off now. Same time, same thing tommorow?... probably.

[Archtyrant]

Oh my goodness..

Some people are in pure denial here.

Come on, don't you know what an ESTIMATION is?? Or did you want Oda to draw 1000 divisions in his chart??

Please.. use some analytical ability when debating. It's like we're saying "ok, apples can be red or green" and you say "NO NO NO SOMEONE TOOK THIS PHOTO OF A GREEN APPLE SO APPLES MUST BE GREEN" . Like, what?

When you play a game, and 2 of your characters are at, say, level 50. Does it mean that neither is stronger than the other?

And Nami vs Kalifa IS relevant because it is a part of Oda's work! It shows that Strength isn't everything! Like you said, yes speed is important, but Zoro did NOT brush Soru off like it was nothing. You're just showing your denialism by insisting he did.

Look, I'm not saying that Zoro can't be equal to Luffy. In fact, I can't see Zoro losing to Luffy either. But please.. argue more intelligently will you?? Because now you're simply not convincing. I think any neutral party who comes in now would attest to that. I know your ego is at stake since there are just so many others who disagree with the 3 of you (Phenomenol, OIP and Final End), but think: why are so many people doing so? Isn't it because your arguments are just not sound? It's simply difficult to argue with a bunch of people who can't even comprehend simple statements.

[Ms. Suave Debonair]

How can you two go on without realising how pathetic both of you look?

These are both theories that you have. One might be a bit more concrete than the other but that doesn't matter because they are both theories. This pointless areguement isn't going to solve anything or get you any further. You came to the conclusion about 4 pages ago yet you still carry on with this tiresome tirade of idiotic banter. Leave it be, move on to something else, find something else to ponder over.

[Nauykuyr]

@Bad-Beat:

How can you two go on without realising how pathetic both of you look?

These are both theories that you have. One might be a bit more concrete than the other but that doesn't matter because they are both theories. This pointless areguement isn't going to solve anything or get you any further. You came to the conclusion about 4 pages ago yet you still carry on with this tiresome tirade of idiotic banter. Leave it be, move on to something else, find something else to ponder over.

Everyone pretty much agrees that it is speculation and theorizing. Only Punch, Final End, and Phenom seem to have a problem with realizing it.

The problem isn't with the theories, it's with them claiming theory as fact. It's hard to explain to them that their theories are speculation (they're deriving more information than what they are told). Seriously, they're not even worth arguing against until they can understand basic concepts of logic.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

So reading oda's chart is speculation? If anyone is wrong it's anyone doubting or adding their own theory to a chart not written by them. I don't care what the chart could've been, i only care for what it is.

[BlackGalleon1]

Ok, before I start, let me mention that I do not plan to interfere in the debate about whether or not Luffy is greater than or equal to Zoro. I merely want to address the stupid assumption that Luffy's gears make him godlike amongst the other mugiwara.

Recently, I have been seeing posts that say something like "Zoro, Sanji, Franky might be equal to base Luffy, but if Luffy goes into gear 2 or 3, he would totally pwn them easy". Let me be the first to call that absolute BS. First of all, let me state that Luffy's Gears are an upgrade that makes him faster and stronger/more powerful. But what some seem to forget is that almost everyone in the crew gained an 'upgrade' that heightens their combat abilities. Allow me to elaborate

• Usopp: Usopp's fighting abilities are derived from his weapon of choice, his slingshot (obvious exceptions include Usopp Hammer and Usopp Noise). This was upgraded to the Kabuto (we have yet to see this in full action but from what we have seen it is possible to suggest that Firebird Star is an enhanced form of his Flame/Blaze Star)
• Nami: All of Nami's combat abilities come from the clima-tact of hers. With her tact upgraded to the perfect clima-tact, her abilities as a whole were upgraded (seen when she KOed the marines upon enter Enies Lobby, and with Mirage Tempo Fata Morgana) as opposed to only learning one or two new attack techniques.

These two had upgrades on their weapons, as upgrades to the bodies (like the others I am about to address) would be out of character and probably less efficient/effective.

• Chopper: Chopper's battle style revolves around him utilising his zoan fruit to tranform into different forms/points, of which he initially had seven of (with the help of his Rumble Balls). In his fight against Kumadori, however, he ingested three, allowing him to reach an eighth form, Monster Points. This his upgrade, giving him a huge increase in strength and speed, with which he easily KOed Kumadori, breaking his tekkai gou in the process.
• Sanji: We all know that he fights only using kicks. During his fight with Jabra/Jabura, he activated his Diable Jambe, an upgrade that Sanji describes as having "demonic" destructive power. How do I know its an upgrade and not just a simple attack technique. First, he did more than one attack in that form (Flambage Shoot, First Rate Mincemeat), and second, before he used the D.J. he used attacks like second and third rate mincemeat. Using Diable Jambe he disposed of Jabra with a couple of kicks, whilst Jabra was still using tekkai.
• Zoro: As a swordsman, he uses swords to fight. However, his sword can't be upgraded in the same manner as Usopp's and Nami's; his upgrade had to come from himself, in the form of his Demon Ki/Asura. How we know it is an upgrade and not just an attack is by the fact everyone had an upgrade so it would be stupid not to follow the trend and give Zoro one, and that he used his demon ki/wtfasura to upgrade his Oni Giri, were it looked like his sword were bending. With his Demon Ki/Asura, Zoro was able to own Kaku in one attack; the single attack was able to nullify Kaku's strongest attack (which cut the tower in half), but also go on to hit Kaku, finishing the battle.
• Luffy: As FFA continues to repeat, is a combat genius whose abilities are derived from creative use of his DF in conjuction with his strength and speed. However, before attaining his upgrade, Gears, he was powerless when compared to the CP9 members (displayed in the Galley La HQ). With his Gears upgrade Luffy was able to, with Gear 2, increase his strength and speed (contrary to some people's belief, Gear 2 is not simply soru, but the toughening of his body allowing him to use techniques like soru), and with Gear 3, gained monsterous strength and size at the cost of speed. With this upgrade Luffy was able to defeat Rucchi/Lucchi after painstakingly tough battle.
• Robin and Franky did not receive upgrades because Robin did not fight and Franky was too new.

As I mentioned before, what the mugiwara received at Enies Lobby was an upgrade and not another single powerful technique. The difference between an upgrade and 'another technique' is that the upgrade expand their current combat abilities allowing them to not only create new techniques, but to enhance their current techniques making them more powerful/deadly.

–-----------------------------------

Now for the 'de-godification' of Luffy's gears

• First, I saw a post where the poster was using the fact that Luffy destroyed a ship using Gear 3 as proof of Luffy's superiority in power. My answer: Big whoop. Zoro cut a train, and T-Bone had the repution as Shipcutter. Destroying a ship is no big deal now. Nuff said (no need to mention Mihawk)
• Beforeentering Enies Lobby and receiving their upgrades, non of the mugiwara broke tekkai (Sanji came the closest). Luffy had to use Gear 2 to break Blueno's tekkai (keep in mind that he had 830 douriki). Blueno infact almost survived the attack using Gear 2, and Luffy was about to activate Gear 3, only Blueno fainted before that took place. Choppers upgrade easily pwn Kumadori (810 douriki) and his tekkai gou. Sanji beat the tekkai of a 2180 douriki man with couple of kicks, and Zoro did not need an upgrade, he could have cut Kaku's (2200 douriki) tekkai using ishi sonson or his gorira(sp) arms.
• Sanji and Zoro effortlessly disposed of Jabra and Kaku using their upgrades, Luffy almost lost to Rucchi (he would have it it wasn't for Usopp). This does not prove that Sanji and/or Zoro could have beat Rucchi, just that their upgrades are much closer in power power than people care to admit.
• Luffy's Gears have critical drawbacks (which we have yet to see in Diable Jambe and Demon Ki/wtfasura). Gear 2 decreses his life whilst Gear 3 reduces his speed as well as reverts him into midget form.
• By using douriki of the opponets fought to measure the difference in power between the mugiwara would Franky is nearly three times weaker than Zoro and Sanji and is weaker than Chopper.

Using this logic, it is possible to say that the ratio of power among the mugiwara has stayed the same as it was before, whatever that ratio was.
–-----------------------------

I have to say that it is 3am here in the UK and I am half asleep, so forgive whatever mistakes I have made. Also, since I am about to go get some sleep, any response would be dealt with later.

[wolfwood]

mebbe its just me whos a little slow but i dont see how them both having 6 in strength(as in they can lift the same amount of weight) makes them equal in a fight, now im sure its been brought up before but i didnt feel like reading 15+ pages chockful of reiteration just to find out so if someone could please just explain this for me i would appreciate it greatly,

also im so goddamn sick of hearing the word "canon" burped up with every post in this thread that word has lost whatever meaning it once had and just makes me winch everytime i hear it.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

Nice post blackgalleon1

@wolfwood:

mebbe its just me whos a little slow but i dont see how them both having 6 in strength(as in they can lift the same amount of weight) makes them equal in a fight, now im sure its been brought up before but i didnt feel like reading 15+ pages chockful of reiteration just to find out so if someone could please just explain this for me i would appreciate it greatly,

Whitebeard is the worlds strongest (strength) man, so if whitebeard can beat anyone strength must mean fighting ability. If it was just how much he could lift, he would just be some strong man. So it can't be typical lifting power it must mean how good a fighter you are or your fighting level.

Now I'm not bothered anymore people can believe what they want to, but don't try to use belief as proof because it isn't.

[Pants-eater]

The plot decides what sorts of people Luffy and Zoro fight.

Luffy will never beat that Ball guy.
Zoro will never beat Buggy.

[regasatanum]

Anyway, in response to the 6 = 6 DUMB EQUATION

6 INDEED EQUALS 6 but that doesnt prove anything with PRECISION.

Lets rate the character in One Piece Character with either GOOD or BAD.

WHITEBEARD is a GOOD fighter.
Sanji is a GOOD fighter.

GOOD = GOOD!!! Sanji and Whitebeard! are equal!!!

Unless u tell me they are not GOOD fighter, else u agree they are EQUAL.

[Pants-eater]

If Whitebeard was on the list he would also be a 6.

But, Oda isn't dumb enough to put Whitebeard equal to Zoro. So he'll simply make a bigger scale to fit the bigger number of people.

Anyway, in response to the 6 = 6 DUMB EQUATION

6 INDEED EQUALS 6 but that doesnt prove anything with PRECISION.

Lets rate the character in One Piece Character with either GOOD or BAD.

WHITEBEARD is a GOOD fighter.
Sanji is a GOOD fighter.

GOOD = GOOD!!! Sanji and Whitebeard! are equal!!!

Unless u tell me they are not GOOD fighter, else u agree they are EQUAL.

Good is too thin and ambiguous.

[Phenomenol]

@Archtyrant:

Oh my goodness..

Some people are in pure denial here.

Come on, don't you know what an ESTIMATION is?? Or did you want Oda to draw 1000 divisions in his chart??

Please.. use some analytical ability when debating. It's like we're saying "ok, apples can be red or green" and you say "NO NO NO SOMEONE TOOK THIS PHOTO OF A GREEN APPLE SO APPLES MUST BE GREEN" . Like, what?

When you play a game, and 2 of your characters are at, say, level 50. Does it mean that neither is stronger than the other?

And Nami vs Kalifa IS relevant because it is a part of Oda's work! It shows that Strength isn't everything! Like you said, yes speed is important, but Zoro did NOT brush Soru off like it was nothing. You're just showing your denialism by insisting he did.

Look, I'm not saying that Zoro can't be equal to Luffy. In fact, I can't see Zoro losing to Luffy either. But please.. argue more intelligently will you?? Because now you're simply not convincing. I think any neutral party who comes in now would attest to that. I know your ego is at stake since there are just so many others who disagree with the 3 of you (Phenomenol, OIP and Final End), but think: why are so many people doing so? Isn't it because your arguments are just not sound? It's simply difficult to argue with a bunch of people who can't even comprehend simple statements.

So…..do you wait a couple of pages until the storm dies down and then type up a boring rant?:wassat:

Prove to me that Oda just gave an "estimation?" Also your apple argument is weak, everyone and their momma knows apples can be red or green and Oda did NOT create apples he created Luffy and Zoro putting a simple number of six by their strength which means equal. The manga SUPPORTS Oda's data book.

Nami and Kalifa has nothing to do with Zoro and Luffy, Zoro did Brush Soru off like it was something he sees everyday, go actually read or watch the fight. Also I really don't care if others disagree, Most here always disagree with the truth. It is YOU guys who's Ego's are on the line because you simply refuse and challenge CANON evidence. The data book is written by ODA himself, it is you who can't understand simple statements and logic.

[gqjive]

@ONEinchPUNCH:

Nice post blackgalleon1

Whitebeard is the worlds strongest (strength) man, so if whitebeard can beat anyone strength must mean fighting ability. If it was just how much he could lift, he would just be some strong man. So it can't be typical lifting power it must mean how good a fighter you are or your fighting level.

Now I'm not bothered anymore people can believe what they want to, but don't try to use belief as proof because it isn't.

Dude its just a title. So now that Oda created that title, he is stuck with that definition of strength for the rest of the series.

And, the word strength and the world strongest in the title "World strongest man" are used in different contexts so they have different meanings.

Also, the data book isnt apart of the manga. So now if Oda creates another manga, if he uses the word strength, it means fighting ability? Anyway thats not my point.

My point is, these attributes you are getting from the data book are to describe the characteristics of the SH crew. They are just that, Attributes!!! Some of the other attributes are adventurism, dexterity, intelligence, fashion sense.

If you look at the word strength as an "attribute" then its obvious that the book is refering to the physical strength of the character. aka, how much they can lift or etc, and NOT their fighting ability. So all the data book is really saying is that Zoro and Luffy have the same physical strength. And this, i believe is true.

[regasatanum]

@gqjive:

Dude its just a title. So now that Oda created that title, he is stuck with that definition of strength for the rest of the series.

Also, the data book isnt even in the manga. So now if Oda creates another manga, if he uses the word strength, it means fighting ability? Anyway thats not my point.

My point is, these attributes you are getting from the data book are to describe the characteristics of the SH crew. They are just that, Attributes!!! Some of the other attributes are adventurism, dexterity, intelligence, fashion sense.

If you look at the word strength as an "attribute" then its obvious that the book is refering to the physical strength of the character. aka, how much they can lift or etc, and NOT their fighting ability. So all the data book is really saying is that Zoro and Luffy have the same physical strength. And this, i believe is true.

I agree. Intelligence and dexterity are important in a fight

Zoro

Strength: 6
Intelligence: 2
Dexterity: 4

Luffy

Strength: 6
Intelligence: 1
Dexterity: 1

Now who is a better fighter ? Don't doubt Oda.

Now now data book theorists… Either u stay loyal to the stat and agree Zoro is better or retract your '6 = 6' theory.

[gqjive]

@regasatanum:

I agree. Intelligence and dexterity are important in a fight

Zoro

Strength: 6
Intelligence: 2
Dexterity: 4

Luffy

Strength: 6
Intelligence: 1
Dexterity: 1

Now who is a better fighter ? Don't doubt Oda.

You dont know. Are you asking who is an all around better fighter, or who can will win if they fight each other?

Obvious there are other attributes that Luffy and Zoro have that are not included in the data books. You cant really say who is a better fighter with only 3 pieces of data.

And when Oda wrote these databooks, he was just giving us statistics on the SH crew, it wasnt intended to show whom was the best fighter. of course this is my speculation, as im sure some people on this forum will point out.

[regasatanum]

@gqjive:

You dont know. Are you asking who is an all around better fighter, or who can will win if they fight each other?

Obvious there are other attributes that Luffy and Zoro have that are not included in the data books. You cant really say who is a better fighter with only 3 pieces of data.

And when Oda wrote these databooks, he was just giving us statistics on the SH crew, it wasnt intended to show whom was the best fighter. of course this is my speculation, as im sure some people on this forum will point out.

Yes. I agree.

Thats why those who claim zoro and luffy are equal just because of Strength 6 are reading the stats selectively.

I cant really prove they are not equal, but to say they are equal because of the stats isnt very convincing.

[SabZ]

@ONEinchPUNCH:

Nice post blackgalleon1

Whitebeard is the worlds strongest (strength) man, so if whitebeard can beat anyone strength must mean fighting ability. If it was just how much he could lift, he would just be some strong man. So it can't be typical lifting power it must mean how good a fighter you are or your fighting level.

What if Whitebeard is so insanely strong, that he relies on strength alone in battle. How do you know that strength = fighting ability. Oda hasn't stated it… wait... are you SPECULATING?!

If you divide the SH PLs by 6, the answer wouldn't be 6. 6 is the number of bounderies placed between each part (a sixth). From one boundery to another (5 to 6) most likely has more than one number. Luffy could surpass Zoro like this.

Prove to me the chart was made without any of the analysis above. And I mean PROVE it, like saying "Oda said he created the chart only, without deeper analysis planning". I'm speculating that Oda did a detail analysis and created borders, you're speculating that he didn't.

Speculation = Bad proof when wanting to prove Luffy = Zoro.

Wait for a quote in the manga, instead of the chart (which can backfire on your theory, as proven).

[Pants-eater]

Zoro is half as curious as Luffy.

That, I highly doubt as Zoro would much prefer sleeping whilst Luffy is being restrained by Nami and Sanji from running to the mysterious funky island.

[Archtyrant]

.. I can't even be bothered to respond to their posts anymore. I think most of us understand the rough estimation behind the pie chart, and its either pure stupidity or pure denial that's stopping some people from admitting that its true. And I should hardly think any of us here are stupid at all.

I also agree that Luffy won't have an easy fight at all if he fought any of the SHs. Gears and all are the sort of thing that he developed BECAUSE he wanted to save his nakama.

Lucci: Foolish, doing something like that will only shorten your lifespan.

Luffy: But if i can save Robin, then nothing like that matters at all.

Or something along those lines. I just cant see Luffy gaining the resolve he had in developing the Gears to fight any of his nakama, because that would be kinda counter-productive.

And Sorus do have different speeds for each individual too. Its like sprinting; each racer can have the same frequency, but ultimately its the one who has the greatest leg or arm(for canoeing) strength who will be the fastest racer.

Anyway, if we put the SHs to each having kill or die resolves when figting each other, then I highly doubt Luffy would have an easy time with any of them. It's actually quite hard to determine any sort of winner, because OP is a show with morals, and the winner of the fight is usually the one who has the strongest, longest enduring resolve and belief in his ideals. If Luffy and Zoro fought mindlessly, then I really cant imagine any sort of outcome. Luffy's fights had always fought with the determination to win, and it's really quite hard to imagine him fighting for nothing. It's not like a computer game, where mathematics and techniques are the sole factors in determing the winner of a battle.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

What if Whitebeard is so insanely strong, that he relies on strength alone in battle. How do you know that strength = fighting ability. Oda hasn't stated it… wait... are you SPECULATING?!

Whitebeard is the best and only person to tie with Roger, so being called strongest man in the world isn't just his strength. He's proven this against shanks showing technique, control and speed with a mere slash of his sword.

If you divide the SH PLs by 6, the answer wouldn't be 6. 6 is the number of bounderies placed between each part (a sixth). From one boundery to another (5 to 6) most likely has more than one number. Luffy could surpass Zoro like this.

I've said you may think whatever you please it won't change the fact 6=6, it actually fills ALL available space in the chart. How can you surpass something that has used up all the space?

Don't bother responding to this, we won't reach an agreement so lets just aggree to disagree for now.

Prove to me the chart was made without any of the analysis above. And I mean PROVE it, like saying "Oda said he created the chart only, without deeper analysis planning". I'm speculating that Oda did a detail analysis and created borders, you're speculating that he didn't.

I just read what is written, no speculating. But like I said you may think whatever you please, we'll agree to disagree.

Speculation = Bad proof when wanting to prove Luffy = Zoro.

I'm reading not speculating

Wait for a quote in the manga, instead of the chart (which can backfire on your theory, as proven).

I'll use anything written by the author, if he didn't want them equal he would have used your theory and made an in-depth chart. And even then he could have made them the same only he knows.

Now don't bother saying the same thing again, we will agree to disagree for now. If you're going to respond bring up something else the thread offers that you want to talk about.

[Radical jack]

OK time to address a few points.

Funny how you TRY and change the argument, All Soru users can do that!!!! did you not see the CP9!!! Zoro casually handled all of those techniques, Luffy is no different. matter of fact he has no balance and Lucci lets him no this.

I would like you to tell me what soru is because I don't think you know

They lost because either their technique, fighting ability, stamina or will was inferior. Although if they couldn't keep up with their opponent they would have lost straight away.

How can't you see that?

exactly my point.How can you prove zoro and luffy are exactl equal in these traits,with the upgraded gear 2

WHAT!!? Yeah taking swords away from a SWORDSMAN is fine, but taking a away a DEVIL FRUIT USERS DEVIL FRUIT makes you fail?

You need to start reading the manga instead of using poor comeback, which are constantly proven wrong

whose taken swords away from zoro?Were saying luffy can break them in a fight(he's broken 2 unbreakable armors,and a iron spear, made of same material.)and zoro's swords has broken twice in battle so it can happen.You rthe one saying "what if we magically take his powers away,then what will he do?sorry for the insult but that sounded like an argument final end would use

Now for the 'de-godification' of Luffy's gears

• First, I saw a post where the poster was using the fact that Luffy destroyed a ship using Gear 3 as proof of Luffy's superiority in power. My answer: Big whoop. Zoro cut a train, and T-Bone had the repution as Shipcutter. Destroying a ship is no big deal now. Nuff said (no need to mention Mihawk)
• Before their upgrades, non of the mugiwara broke tekkai (Sanji came the closest). Luffy had to use Gear 2 to break Blueno's tekkai (keep in mind that he had 830 douriki). Blueno infact almost survived the attack using Gear 2, and Luffy was about to activate Gear 3, only Blueno fainted before that took place. Choppers upgrade easily pwn Kumadori (810 douriki) and his tekkai gou. Sanji beat the tekkai of a 2180 douriki man with couple of kicks, and Zoro did not need an upgrade, he could have cut Kaku's (2200 douriki) tekkai using ishi sonson or his gorira(sp) arms.
• Sanji and Zoro effortlessly disposed of Jabra and Kaku using their upgrades, Luffy almost lost to Rucchi (he would have it it wasn't for Usopp). This does not prove that Sanji and/or Zoro could have beat Rucchi, just that their upgrades are much closer in power power than people care to admit.

Bolded 1

ok luffy did it before his upgrade here

franky did it also here

sanji did it

chopper did it here too

and you already mentioned zoro so that covers everybody except ussop and nami

bolded 2.

Effortlessly is luffy and bellamy and zoro and t-bone.Saying they effortlessly beat them was is not accurate at all.Sure they didn't strugglre like mr 1. and bon clay, but they gave him a struggle.

not one time in this post did you mention lucchi's douriki was almost double all the other cp9,Lucchi's mastery of all roukishi techiques(life release form and roku gun).The fact gear 2nd luffy owning lucchi before lean form and this

although I agree with most of your points.Some of it is flawed.

The plot decides what sorts of people Luffy and Zoro fight.

Luffy will never beat that Ball guy.
Zoro will never beat Buggy.

who ohm? or mr 1 ? cause he can beat both of them

breaking tekkai is virtually the same as putting a dent in mr 1's face

nobody ever said gear 2 would trash everybody.JUst that its the small gap that gives him the edge over them.

Fuck the yellow book. I'm waiting for a quote in the manga. For all I know, the yellow book could be another rough overview. Stop raping the charts.

my sentiments exactly

[DesertSpada]

Luffy also destroyed two buildings without ANY leverage or space to move his arms. Also, these wern't small buildings either. Also, yes, Lucci douriki is almost twice that of Zoro's opponent and yeah everything that Radical jack said pretty much.

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@Radical:

whose taken swords away from zoro?Were saying luffy can break them in a fight(he's broken 2 unbreakable armors,and a iron spear, made of same material.)and zoro's swords has broken twice in battle so it can happen.You rthe one saying "what if we magically take his powers away,then what will he do?sorry for the insult but that sounded like an argument final end would use

AD HD showed his intelligence with this

Originally Posted by AD-HD Pirate

Can Zoro destroy a ship without his swords? I don't think so.

Which I responded to with this

I usually don't answer you but this is ridiculous, take away luffy's Devil fruit let's see how far he gets.

And you answered with this

my goodness,this reply makes you fail so much.

And I responded with

WHAT!!? Yeah taking swords away from a SWORDSMAN is fine, but taking a away a DEVIL FRUIT USERS DEVIL FRUIT makes you fail?

You need to start reading the manga instead of using poor comeback, which are constantly proven wrong

Who looks stupid now?

[Phenomenol]

@Radical:

I would like you to tell me what soru is because I don't think you know

Soru is explosive movement just like Kuro's "Shakushi"!!!

exactly my point. How can you prove zoro and luffy are exactl equal in these traits,with the upgraded gear 2

Gear 2 is nothing special, all of his attacks evolve and he is able to move like Soru, something Zoro had already seen. Zoro has been upgraded as well along with techniques, something Luffy does not even have.

whose taken swords away from zoro?Were saying luffy can break them in a fight(he's broken 2 unbreakable armors,and a iron spear, made of same material.)and zoro's swords has broken twice in battle so it can happen.You rthe one saying "what if we magically take his powers away,then what will he do?sorry for the insult but that sounded like an argument final end would use

Bolded 1

ok luffy did it before his upgrade here

franky did it also here

sanji did it

chopper did it here too

and you already mentioned zoro so that covers everybody except ussop and nami

bolded 2.

Effortlessly is luffy and bellamy and zoro and t-bone.Saying they effortlessly beat them was is not accurate at all.Sure they didn't strugglre like mr 1. and bon clay, but they gave him a struggle.

not one time in this post did you mention lucchi's douriki was almost double all the other cp9,Lucchi's mastery of all roukishi techiques(life release form and roku gun).The fact gear 2nd luffy owning lucchi before lean form and this

although I agree with most of your points.Some of it is flawed.

What? where do you get this "Luffy can break Zoro's swords" crap from? Zoro got his swords broken by Mihawk, a guy who Luffy can't even talk too so don't act like Luffy can just all of a sudden break Zoro's swords because if he could Luffy would have done so in Whiskey peak. It doesn't really matter if Lucci had a higher Doriki, Te-awase's only a method to measure the level of your "athletics!!" nothing more. Gear 2nd Luffy wasn't owning anyone, Lucci basically was kicking Luffy's cheeks up and down the entire fight.

who ohm? or mr 1 ? cause he can beat both of them

breaking tekkai is virtually the same as putting a dent in mr 1's face

nobody ever said gear 2 would trash everybody.JUst that its the small gap that gives him the edge over them.

Tekkai is Iron, their is a big difference between steel and iron. Daz Boness is much more durable than Tekkai! Not too mention the fact that Daz Boness is a WALKING SWORD!!! Luffy even with his Gears would have trouble even touching Daz, let alone beat him.

my sentiments exactly

Why are you waiting for a quote in the manga when you would just ignore it and use your own theories?:wassat:

[AD-HD Pirate]

I can't believe that you guys are saying that Lucci is weaker than Zoro.

[Radical jack]

@ONEinchPUNCH:

AD HD showed his intelligence with this

Which I responded to with this

I usually don't answer you but this is ridiculous, take away luffy's Devil fruit let's see how far he gets.

And you answered with this

And I responded with

WHAT!!? Yeah taking swords away from a SWORDSMAN is fine, but taking a away a DEVIL FRUIT USERS DEVIL FRUIT makes you fail?

You need to start reading the manga instead of using poor comeback, which are constantly proven wrong

Who looks stupid now?

MY mistake.oip I thought you said this statment

usually don't answer you but this is ridiculous, take away luffy's Devil fruit let's see how far he gets

.

in reply to this statment

And btw, Luffy is capable breaking Zoro's swords

.

didn't really see that other comment

[Final End]

What if Whitebeard is so insanely strong, that he relies on strength alone in battle. How do you know that strength = fighting ability. Oda hasn't stated it… wait... are you SPECULATING?!

What!…. you bring this back up again? in manga strength = overrall. Whitebeard fights with his Kwan Do!......I didnt see him throw any punches when him and Shanks clashed.

If you divide the SH PLs by 6, the answer wouldn't be 6. 6 is the number of bounderies placed between each part (a sixth). From one boundery to another (5 to 6) most likely has more than one number. Luffy could surpass Zoro like this.

Oda dont tell us to divide anything! 6 = 6 Oda dont tell us to work anything out.

Prove to me the chart was made without any of the analysis above. And I mean PROVE it, like saying "Oda said he created the chart only, without deeper analysis planning". I'm speculating that Oda did a detail analysis and created borders, you're speculating that he didn't.

Repugnant!….......

Speculation = Bad proof when wanting to prove Luffy = Zoro.

Data book says they are equals. 6 = 6

Wait for a quote in the manga, instead of the chart (which can backfire on your theory, as proven).

Your the only one with a "theory" saying the same thing over and over.
"Oda wants us to divide and subtract!" when it says nothing like that in the data book.