Attack on Titan: Why Genocide Is Sometimes Kind of Okay

gyuukarubi

You can't think of a better ending other than the one that makes the entire series basically pointless and meaningless? The one that destroys the character arc of the main character? That fundamentally brings out ideas that were never build up and throws other stuff out the window? Not to mention how it fundamentally tries to make the most useless and boring character like Mikasa into like an important plot relevant character when her character has been nothing more than a generic killing machine that wants senpai to notice her.

I usually don't care about fans creating their own ending when they are dissatisfied with the actual ending but this is one of the rare moments where the ending created by the fans has a better grasp of the previous story stuff then the actual writer. Where they actually respect the story, themes and characters compare to the writer who seems like someone that literally forgot what he established in the first place.

This is some serious teenage edgelord material.

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Accurate.

In other words, fans think they know the purpose and intent of the series better than its own creator. Isn’t that the definition of hubris?

To be honest, I think that some of those fans built up fantasies in their heads of what Attack on Titan was about. I also feel that they may have some twisted idea of what Isayama was trying to do with it.

Don’t you remember the sense of utter despair in the story after Eren killed Hoover and the Survey Corps retook Shiganshina? The entirety of the Survey Corps was wiped out. We thought Armin was dead. Even after the moment of hope after Armin’s revival, Floch’s harsh truths stung all the more following it. Eren’s horrified face after kissing Historia’s hand told us that was something was utterly wrong… followed by Eren’s despair at seeing the sea.

I would argue that astute readers could have predicted Eren’s character arc from the moment the story revealed that he could turn into a Titan. Attack on Titan’s manga has ALWAYS been bleak, macabre, nihilistic, and utter darkness with only shimmers of hope.

Fans who feel that they have a better understanding of the characters and story unfortunately were mistaken… and other fans approached the series with less delusion.

Cyclone_Baroness

I think that out of all the things in the end. Mikasa being with Jean is kinda amusing. Since he liked her from the start. I'm pleasantly surprised she didn't die after a lonely life of pining over Eren.

pariston_hill

Attack on Titan’s manga has ALWAYS been bleak, macabre, nihilistic, and utter darkness with only shimmers of hope.

And because that were supposed to accept an end that says that genocide is viable solution to racial conflicts and that humanity will never find a peaceful path to the cicle of conflict?

zeltrax225

The creator doesn't even know what he wants lol as clearly shown by his coping and backpedaling

gyuukarubi

@pariston_hill:

And because that were supposed to accept an end that says that genocide is viable solution to racial conflicts and that humanity will never find a peaceful path to the cicle of conflict?

Do you think that Isayama thinks Eren is in the right? He definitely doesn’t. Attack on Titan is a story about the protagonist’s descent into darkness after a major tragedy. He even points the reader towards thinking that nearly everything was Eren’s fault.

Paradis being destroyed was their reckoning. He bought his friends time… but created thousands of “Erens” just like he did when he first attacked Marley (aka Gabi).

Isayama is showing that war leads to tragedy… which leads to more war and tragedy. And it always continues. This is true in the real world, too.

KageKageKing

You guys really need to check Platinum End's ending tbh.

zeltrax225

I would if its not such a mess and terrible in everything except character designs
I have no idea how the pair who peaked at death note and bakuman could create such a mess
but whos to say maybe people like it but its too edgey for me

HeartOfDarkness

@gyuukarubi:

Attack on Titan is a story about the protagonist’s descent into darkness after a major tragedy.

That he himself created for some reason…....A character that so far in the entire series has been established as someone that always has a reason for doing what he does.....ends up causing the death of his own mother...because.....reasons.

This is true in the real world, too

That does not solve the issues of the ending nor the very clear inconsistency between the rest of 138 chapters and the last chapter.

Mikasa being somehow the most "important" character, Ymir "loving" Karl, Ymir being like Mikasa, Eren "loving" Mikasa when it's literally the least explored aspect of the entire story etc….. are some of the biggest problems. Hell, even Isayama just lazily shoved in the "titan" aspect in the follow-up/extended last chapter when he introduced that few volumes ago, and then just dropped it during the final chapters.

Just saying that it's "realistic" is by far the biggest and laziest argument. Anyone, without even thinking or going into these pretentious tantum about how war/violence leads to more war/violence, would've naturally been super confused by the last chapter due to how obvious it's inconsistencies are.

And guess what? Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaa manga has nihilism as one of the biggest, if not the biggest, theme in the manga. And it has an actual point to convey with that beyond just repeating what a fifth-grader sees as a cool and "deep" message. Maybe try reading that manga and see that nihilism could be used to explore/convey something other than "it's all pointless".

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@gyuukarubi:

Fans who feel that they have a better understanding of the characters and story unfortunately were mistaken… and other fans approached the series with less delusion.

I can literally post videos upon videos of people breaking down the ending and how it fundamentally goes against the things established in the series and ruins lots of great character moments.

While the people who praise the ending either seems to fall to the same cliche of "it's realistic" and ignores how the writing choices, earlier established things or in general cherry pick moments without the proper context and what not.

Do you want me to post some examples? Because I think THAT would be great and I personally would be interested to see if you can tackle any of the issues beyond "guy it's realistic and nihilistic and it doesn't matter so it's good".

Here is one:

Let's see a bit more discussion then "its realistic".

I would argue that astute readers could have predicted Eren’s character arc from the moment the story revealed that he could turn into a Titan

I didn't particularly see anyone talk about Eren being destined and following the path laid in order for him to commit genocide and lead Mikasa to Ymir.

Or that Ymir was in "love" with Karl and that would be the reason why Ymir couldn't break the cycle and the one that would "help" her do it wouldn't be the main character….It would be some generic character.....whose relationship with Eren is somehow supposed to be paralleled with Ymir and Karl.....because clearly Mikasa is in a abusive relationship.....

I would be interested to see who predicted that.....

Lord Gaimon

the new op is so good definitely the best one

zeltrax225

Obligatory bump that even if you don't watch anime regularly, this is now the perfect time to catch up on Attack on Titan.
The animation and directing is insanely good and is pretty much the very best in recent years. This series is also now one that has captured a huge portion of the world's population right at this moment. There's a possibility of an anime only ending and regardless of your thoughts on the ending, this is somewhat of a historical moment in the community and in the medium as a whole. It's the second GoT finale all over again, it's a lot of fun to join in and watch the end unfold. That's about it.

Ivotas

It seems that I've missed a lot of discussion here. Do I understand it correctly, the volume release has a different ending from the final chapter's first release?:blink:

Lord Gaimon

@Ivotas:

It seems that I've missed a lot of discussion here. Do I understand it correctly, the volume release has a different ending from the final chapter's first release?:blink:

it has some extra pages in the end, nothing big

Ivotas

@Lord:

it has some extra pages in the end, nothing big

Are you those the pages that shows in future generations? If yes, I thought those also came out before the volume.

Lord Gaimon

@Ivotas:

Are you those the pages that shows in future generations?

something like that

Ivotas

@Lord:

something like that

I see. If that's what people have a problem with I don't see why.

Lord Gaimon

@Ivotas:

I see. If that's what people have a problem with

nah, it's a little more complicated than that, ending dislikers fall mostly into four camps (in order of how common they are):
1-people who projected themselves onto the main character and were upset when he turned out to be a loser
2-people who think it's not anti-fascist enough
3-people who think it's not fascist enough
4-people who have grievances with certain plot mechanics.

there are people with more substantial criticisms of the series but their problems concern more than just the ending.

fana

I'm in the "People thinking Eren's masterplan was dumb" camp.

Lord Gaimon

@fana:

I'm in the "People thinking Eren's masterplan was dumb" camp.

that means you probably fall in the fourth catagory, but i wouldn't call anything eren did a "masterplan" lol he's not that kind of character

Ivotas

@Lord:

nah, it's a little more complicated than that, ending dislikers fall mostly into four camps (in order of how common they are):
1-people who projected themselves onto the main character and were upset when he turned out to be a loser
2-people who think it's not anti-fascist enough
3-people who think it's not fascist enough
4-people who have grievances with certain plot mechanics.

there are people with more substantial criticisms of the series but their problems concern more than just the ending.

I wonder which camp I would fall in then. I have no problems with Eren turning into villain but I'm having a huge problem with Armin and everyone else showing some sort of understanding and dare I say gratitude, once they learned Eren's true motivations. It's still a genocide Armin you moron.

pariston_hill

It think the series is fascist enough already for how much popularity it had.

Lord Gaimon

@Ivotas:

I wonder which camp I would fall in then.

number 2

I have no problems with Eren turning into villain but I'm having a huge problem with Armin and everyone else showing some sort of understanding and dare I say gratitude, once they learned Eren's true motivations. It's still a genocide Armin you moron.

Armin was just comforting his dying friend, he called what eren did a terrible mistake in that scene and actively fought to stop it, we didn't need a didactic speech about how genocide is bad because that was already established.

Ivotas

@Lord:

number 2

Armin was just comforting his dying friend, he called what eren did a terrible mistake in that scene and actively fought to stop it, we didn't need a didactic speech about how genocide is bad because that was already established.

I have to reread that part but I'm quite sure, that after everyone's memory was restored, there was a kind of "you made the sacrifice of becaming a villain for us?" feeling amongst Eren's friends. It felt like with the memory restored they think lesser bad of Eren than when they had to stop him. And that because instead of killing everyone, he just wanted to kill the majority so that the survivors can treat Eldians as the heroes. And that doesn't make it more acceptable.

I agree that Armin doesn't have to go on a didactic speech on why it is wrong. But the fact that he seems lesser dismissive of Eren's genocide is what irks me.

zeltrax225

if you pose the question of what would you do if you were in eren's shoes to people who disliked the ending, i think there would be a chance of a healthier discussion.
Or not, or it just makes it easier for you to sort the bandwagon guys out. Personally, I think the ending should be one where the rumbling actually succeeded but after so long and so many back and forth, I've come to be more accepting of the ending.

auem

I will watch the anime if it will have different ending.
Manga ending left too much of a bad taste to consider this story again in any form.

Shandian

@auem:

I will watch the anime if it will have different ending.
Manga ending left too much of a bad taste to consider this story again in any form.

Well said, awful endings can ruin awesome stories. Game of thrones TV series is good proof of it, even if first 4-5 seasons are one of best TV shows out there final two seasons were so bad that I don't think I can watch GoT TV show episodes for a few years. It maybe a good think that Winds of Winter book won't ever be published so earlier books remain stellar.

Lord Gaimon

@Ivotas:

I have to reread that part but I'm quite sure, that after everyone's memory was restored, there was a kind of "you made the sacrifice of becaming a villain for us?" feeling amongst Eren's friends. It felt like with the memory restored they think lesser bad of Eren than when they had to stop him. And that because instead of killing everyone, he just wanted to kill the majority so that the survivors can treat Eldians as the heroes. And that doesn't make it more acceptable.

I agree that Armin doesn't have to go on a didactic speech on why it is wrong. But the fact that he seems lesser dismissive of Eren's genocide is what irks me.

the only comment i thought was weird was annie's ,the rest were fine imo

desa

@zeltrax225:

if you pose the question of what would you do if you were in eren's shoes to people who disliked the ending, i think there would be a chance of a healthier discussion.
Or not, or it just makes it easier for you to sort the bandwagon guys out. Personally, I think the ending should be one where the rumbling actually succeeded but after so long and so many back and forth, I've come to be more accepting of the ending.

I understand why someone would kill everyone to protect his own. I dont blame the personal motivation. But once you have world war 2 imagery and are trying to discuss genocide I need the story to actually put a clear rejection of it somewhere either from Armin or his friends about how this kind of extreme action shouldnt be taken. But instead its played as a sacrifice that all the characters we care about are grateful for. That's a big problem to me when you are talking about genocide.

Ivotas

@Lord:

the only comment i thought was weird was annie's ,the rest were fine imo

I don't remember what exactly Annie said what I'm afraid. But looking back at what my innitial reaction on that chapter was, Armin gave off the impression of "Eren's actually not that bad a person as he wanted to make us believe" kind of vibe, which I consider is a problematic take from the author.

zeltrax225

hi, just wanted to let everyone know that part one of the final final season is up and it's glorious.

zeltrax225

@desa the anime actually helped put this in a more approachable, understandable light, they are not necessarily grateful for what he did, but in many ways their inaction/action has led to eren to do what he do. A lot of people were involved in the accumulation of what led to the final straw. It's less of gratitude but more of guilt. And I would say that creators shouldn't shy away from creating what was influenced from world wars because we actually did get a lot of good fiction from human history itself.

Genocide is a human act and so is war, slaughter and all the other monstrous acts we do to each other. It is not as inhumane as it is human. Personally, I detest and think of it as our own arrogance to want to bury it, and not examine it.

Eren, is of course, the representation of that taken to the extreme but what the characters are saying wasn't "thank you for doing that" as much as "thank you for being the ONE to do that" which in turns resulted in the world seeing that their hatred towards paradise wasn't justified and Armin group killing Eren = saviours of the world which gives them foothold for a better future. It is basically understanding where he is coming from.

I feel like a lot of the fanbase puts too much emphasis on the words they used while forgetting the nuance of the Japanese language and the very actions that the group did before: They killed and betrayed their own kind in paradise, they lost and sacrificed a lot of lives when they did not have to but because it was the right thing to do. In many ways, they were in complete opposition to Eren's actions. And you can't even say what he did was unnecessary because the whole Paradis dilemna has no solution. Zeke's solution was, at its bare bones, a non solution.

Once again, I believe the ending happens the way it did because Isayama is still at the core an optimistic person and he does want to create something that inspires and have an ending that is not full of despair. If put in his shoes, I honestly don't think any writer can do a better job to solve the problem. There's no world police with the nuclear option, there's no Narutoesque character, there's no time for understanding because the island has been isolated since forever, so there's no way out.

zeltrax225

The last episode is out if anyone is interested.
I don't have much to say except that it was an experience.
It's really good. Kept all of the source material except for one or two little changes (one which affects character impression a lot).
AoT....defined a generation or at the very least, an entire decade or so.
Hate it or love it, it's influence cannot be denied. I loved the entire thing and the whole journey but I guess with this, except for maybe a rewatch in the future, this is goodbye.

algebro

The finale was incredible. It fixed the tonal issues a lot of people had with the manga ending and really elevated what it had to work with. Eren is such a compelling villain and the fact that he realized his solution wasn't the answer but the "best" that he could do was well stated. I've always disagreed with people who felt the manga was pro genocide considering the entire conclusion was his best friends and closest comrades rebelling against their nation to kill him but the anime took it a step further showing that even he didn't think he was right. This man was truly lost in the non sequential omnipresent time sauce.

With such a well executed finale this is absolutely going to be remembered as one of the greatest anime of all time. It reminds me of FMA Brotherhood where the scope and the scale of the plot keeps expanding as you become engrossed in the world. So many great characters throughout and iconic well animated action scenes. It will be a while before we see another tentpole anime on this level. It's the anime version of GOT sticking the landing.