the recoil will probably break all of Usopp's bone…...
but I figure Luffy to be able to get back up....after a while....
Usopp is a mugiwara! Forever!!
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I don't think a Reject can take down Luffy…...... who was clearly holding back during their fight at Water 7.........
God dammit, that only proof of that statement is that "Luffy didn't own Usopp instantly." Yet the point of that fight was to show what Usopp could do, regardless of whether or not he could beat Luffy. Actually, what was the point of the entire fight if Luffy was holding back?
I don't give me anything about "killing intent" cause Luffy doesn't have that. Merely using "bazooka,"–a move that could have knocked Usopp through the next building--was enough of a sign that he wasn't holding back. I mean c'mon, if those moves hit they the fight would have been over, yet Usopp countered them.
It's really not so much as "Luffy was holding back" but "Luffy was trying to finish the match as soon as possible."
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I would argue that if Luffy had really wanted the fight to finish, he would have finished it sooner…....
but you got a point there......
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Compared to Luffy vs. Nami, Usopp did pretty well, all things considered.
Nami would be about as tough as this pink haired girl:
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**A reject would destroy Luffy, as well as Usopp. 10 times is a huge differance.
I can't understand why people keep trying to find an exuse for saying Luffy was holding back. People simply can't admit that Usopp is strong, just not physically.
Ussopp wasn't just doing well against Luffy, he was completley owning him. It's true that he didn't give Luffy any fatal injuriees, but Luffy didn't get him once before tthe final blow. Not once. That's what just a few hours of planning can so, and it's not like a genius like Usopp can't think of that during battle. The only thing hindering him is his own fear.
What else do you need?**
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I not saying Usopp is weak either…...
but I am saying that Usopp isn't going to beat Luffy, because if Luffy were to lose to him, that would mean Luffy isn't ready nor isn't fit to become the Pirate King......
I admit Usopp is strong in a sense, but he isn't going to beat Luffy with just planning and dials..... -
I not saying Usopp is weak either…...
but I am saying that Usopp isn't going to beat Luffy, because if Luffy were to lose to him, that would mean Luffy isn't ready nor isn't fit to become the Pirate King......
I admit Usopp is strong in a sense, but he isn't going to beat Luffy with just planning and dials.....No one ever said he would ever be able to beat Luffy. :blink:
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@Octogon:
No one ever said he would ever be able to beat Luffy. :blink:
Yes, that was never the point. Usopp is still most likely the weakest Strawhat, depending on how you look at Nami (does her punches in the head count as a factor?) or Chopper (would he even fight another crewmember?).
The point is, there is little reason to think that Usopp won't own future villians and whatnot–maybe even a few big players. If we see a shichibukai who fights with a gun, then Usopp will fight him...or Franky. It depends on the gun-type.
But you see, each SH is basically like Goku. If you look at his overall career, he's lost evey battle that he didn't "need" to win. He lost every tournament he competed in until the last one–where the fate of the world was on the line. He lost (arguably) his fight against Cell, because Gohan could handle it.
Each SH is like. Simply put, when they need to win, they win. Usopp didn't need to win. Sanji took care of Jyabura. What he needed to do what snipe those marines around Robin, and he did. When he needed to defeat Chuu and the Mr. 4 pair (w/ Chopper) he did. Basically, Usopp will be there when you need him. And that's why it's wrong to think that he won't improve or get stronger like the other SHs.
This is a factor that each SH holds in common. The SHs always rise to the occasion when the situation calls for it. Usopp's occasion was just..a little meh this time. Although, the arc still isn't really over…
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**The only thing I disagree with is I think Usopp is on the higher teir of the SH. Give a little distance and nami/chopper are instantly dead. Give enough distance and he would be able to make the top three work.
Usless you were talking about close range, then yeah he's the weakest.**
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@Octogon:
**The only thing I disagree with is I think Usopp is on the higher teir of the SH. Give a little distance and nami/chopper are instantly dead. Give enough distance and he would be able to make the top three work.
Usless you were talking about close range, then yeah he's the weakest.**
No, right now he's lower tier, with 8 members Usopp is only higher then two, and I have some reservations about Nami and Chopper. Like, how can we compare Nami when she's punching all the stronger guys in the head all the time. If a fight started, would this "comic relief" strength disappear? Anyway, Nami wouldn't directly fight any SH anyway, she's just trick them into getting tied up or something.
And Chopper, I think his personality is keeping him from being stronger. He doesn't have confidence, and I think that if attacked by any of his fellow SHs, he'd freeze up from shock. In that sense, he's the weakest. Physically though, he probably has the strength or match any Strawhat, especially now that he has that monster point. Really, Chopper just needs confidence and battle experience to get stronger–one could argue that physically he's already there.
Now for Usopp, we shouldn't jsut say "given enough range" because in the future, he most likely won't be given enough range--at the start of the fight. Part of Usopp becoming stronger is learnign ways to distance himself from his opponenets and developing new ways to confuse his enemy. Then he can snipe them efficiently.
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hopefully, he will get good enough when his fight with Auge is near…...
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No, right now he's lower tier, with 8 members Usopp is only higher then two, and I have some reservations about Nami and Chopper. Like, how can we compare Nami when she's punching all the stronger guys in the head all the time. If a fight started, would this "comic relief" strength disappear? Anyway, Nami wouldn't directly fight any SH anyway, she's just trick them into getting tied up or something.
**It's obvious Nami's comic relif punch can't be used in serious fights. I didn't see her bash Calipha's hean in.
And the only SH that would completley own him is Robin.**
And Chopper, I think his personality is keeping him from being stronger. He doesn't have confidence, and I think that if attacked by any of his fellow SHs, he'd freeze up from shock. In that sense, he's the weakest. Physically though, he probably has the strength or match any Strawhat, especially now that he has that monster point. Really, Chopper just needs confidence and battle experience to get stronger–one could argue that physically he's already there.
Umm, Chopper already has confidence. Read his skypeia figh. He's changed.
Now for Usopp, we shouldn't jsut say "given enough range" because in the future, he most likely won't be given enough range–at the start of the fight. Part of Usopp becoming stronger is learnign ways to distance himself from his opponenets and developing new ways to confuse his enemy. Then he can snipe them efficiently.
**He's been able to give him self distance in the past and he can do it again. He's smart and now he has the weapons.
I mean look at the usopp/luffy fight. Could Nami and Chopper even give Luffy troube evn with hours of planning?
There are situations where Usopp is on the higher tier and others when he is on the lower. For example, while Usopp was on the top of the tower even the high-tier SH would have shitloads of trouble to beat him.
Also, I'm not taking the nuberof SH into account when I talk about tiers. If we go by that, then sure he's on the lower tier. But that's not how it works.
The biggest thing making him weak is his fear. The Luffy/Usopp fight is an example of how powerful Usopp could be if he let go of his fears.
So in conclution, Usopp is nowhere near weak. He just hinders himself with fear. When he overcomes his fear, he becomes a monster.**
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Well we can hope franky joins SH and usopp stays in SH then franky could help usopp to invent all kinda nasty weapons :p
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Usopp really hasn't done anything to deserve a top tier ranking at this point, but that's not to say that he won't. If Usopp takes out the Buster Call ships that would certainly warrant top tier ranking. As a top tier I think Usopp would be something like the wizard (a wizard with super human aiming) of the group. When it comes to pure offensive power no one can match the wizard. Taking down the BC would certainly prove that point. But wizards are not tanks. They're physically weak and they suck at close range battles. So they're not invincible. Also, some of a wizard's more powerful attacks require time to pull off. I can imagine a parallel situation with Usopp where he would require time for gas from one of his inventions to fill a room before lighting it with a flame star setting off a huge explosion (recall the huge explosion he set off during his fight with Luffy); or one where he would require time to charge the impact dials in his staff (Kabuto) by banging it multiple times on a surface before firing off a tremendously powerful attack. Of course this is all speculation at this point…
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This post is deleted!
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but Luffy didn't get him once before tthe final blow. Not once.
Luffy landed two blows before the final punch. One to the face, and one to a reject dial (which may or may not count if you count the recoil)
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Luffy landed two blows before the final punch. One to the face, and one to a reject dial (which may or may not count if you count the recoil)
IMPACT dial, and no it doesn't count it's a strategic choice. And that's the other thing: he two TWO PUNCHES from luffy, which is damn tougher than you're average human.
And if you're gonna go deep into detail in the Luffy-Usopp fight, consider the following: USOPP WAS HORRIBLY, HORRIBLY INJURED. I'd LOVE to see a rematch with a healthy usopp.
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If Usopp fought Luffy again, completely healthy, he would still lose, probably even worse now that Luffy knows Gears.
And no matter how the fight goes I would still hate to see them ever fight again, I don't know why anyone would wish to see such a painful thing again.
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If Usopp fought Luffy again, completely healthy, he would still lose, probably even worse now that Luffy knows Gears.
And no matter how the fight goes I would still hate to see them ever fight again, I don't know why anyone would wish to see such a painful thing again.
I agree…... friends don't fight each other for no apparent reasons......
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If Usopp fought Luffy again, completely healthy, he would still lose, probably even worse now that Luffy knows Gears.
And no matter how the fight goes I would still hate to see them ever fight again, I don't know why anyone would wish to see such a painful thing again.
Lose? Now THERE'S an understatement!!! Usopp would have all of his bones BROKEN. Luffy would have Jet Geared Usopp into the next life if even Gear 2 got a direct hit!
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having thought about this again, i've decided that to say that "luffy held back" is wrong, but to say "luffy went at usopp with all he had" is more wrong. we've seen luffy take a lot more pain than that of tacks and we've also seen luffy more agile. we saw that he felt he was fighting his friend when he refrained from the one punch finish with the ketchup star. if usopp never knew luffy and they had that same fight, it'd be over much quicker and to be honest, i don't beleive usopp would ever get luffy to go to gear second or third, EVER!
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hence, the holding back part from Luffy….... if Luffy were to go on all out....do you really think Usopp will get to overcome Luffy?
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having thought about this again, i've decided that to say that "luffy held back" is wrong, but to say "luffy went at usopp with all he had" is more wrong. we've seen luffy take a lot more pain than that of tacks and we've also seen luffy more agile. we saw that he felt he was fighting his friend when he refrained from the one punch finish with the ketchup star. if usopp never knew luffy and they had that same fight, it'd be over much quicker and to be honest, i don't beleive usopp would ever get luffy to go to gear second or third, EVER!
Yeah, but that Kethcup star occured at the start of the fight, but Luffy even started his real assault. You could say he got serious there. That's why I'm saying Luffy didn't hold back, because from that point he used finishing moves only.
And what do you mean more agile? He seemed as agile as nomal, he dodged a bunch of exploding stars afterall. Luffy at that point was always sketchy in speed, probably slowly then Zoro and Sanji (again, pre-gear). The attacks that hit him were the surprise explosions (too big to dodge) and the cactus star (hit while attacking) and the impact.
And no one is arguing that Usopp can beat Luffy, just that he would give Luffy a hell of a fight. Then again, only Zoro is in the running to beat Luffy right now.
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The odds of a primary character defeating the protagonist of a typical shounen formula are very low. However, that's not the discussion.
Usopp would give Luffy just as much trouble as any other Strawhat would. Usopp said it best: "Luffy, I know all of your moves!" When you travel with a person that long, it doesn't take long for one to understand their fighting methods. The Strawhats could all give each other a hell of a fight, simply because they know and understand the capablities of their allies.
Zoro would know to be prepared for hands growing out of his ass, Chopper would know to immobilize Sanji's legs, etc.
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@Master:
Lose? Now THERE'S an understatement!!! Usopp would have all of his bones BROKEN. Luffy would have Jet Geared Usopp into the next life if even Gear 2 got a direct hit!
That's normal for Usopp though. He's always getting all his bones broken. Nothing a full body cast doesn't cure immediately. XD Usopp is a fricken tank. But that doesn't give him the ability to win. He needs a better offensive ability.
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Usopp needs a better weapon than his pea-shooter…..
I believe Kabuto isn't the best weapon yet.........
maybe he will upgrade it later.........
one thing about Kabuto is, I think it's a bit big.....
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I'm under the impression that Usopp will get armor like Krieg, only it will be made of seastone. And it'll have thousands of gadgets that Usopp can pull out of it.
That, or he could just eat the Kyo Kyo no Mi (First syllable of Giant) and become one with the Elbaf warriors he admires so much.
Usopp Smash!
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I don't think he needs armor….... when he can get a beating and still able to get up......
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That's not the point of the armor. Seastone. Kairoseki. It would prevent him from getting hurt by DF users. On top of that, he could be like Krieg and store weapons in it.
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@Fire Fist:
That's not the point of the armor. Seastone. Kairoseki. It would prevent him from getting hurt by DF users. On top of that, he could be like Krieg and store weapons in it.
Nah, Usopp just needs new tools. He's like the Maguver of fighters, he needs to find the right combination of weapons to beat his opponents.
For example, hammer+rubber band+wine+fire+Usopp hammer beats Chu.
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Yeah, but that Kethcup star occured at the start of the fight, but Luffy even started his real assault. You could say he got serious there. That's why I'm saying Luffy didn't hold back, because from that point he used finishing moves only.
that's a key point there. he used finishing moves only, knowing that Usopp was literally a single blow away from defeat he decided to make it spectacular as opposed to the way it ended which was to simply wind him. In a true fight, you don't just throw finishing moves unless you're either cocky or for lack of better wordage "holding back".
And what do you mean more agile? He seemed as agile as nomal, he dodged a bunch of exploding stars afterall. Luffy at that point was always sketchy in speed, probably slowly then Zoro and Sanji (again, pre-gear). The attacks that hit him were the surprise explosions (too big to dodge) and the cactus star (hit while attacking) and the impact.
Luffy was always slower than Sanji but a lot quicker than Zoro. but the point being Luffy has shown some tredmendous feats of agility and only used his speed and weight in order to dodge, not once did he use that agility to attack.
And no one is arguing that Usopp can beat Luffy, just that he would give Luffy a hell of a fight. Then again, only Zoro is in the running to beat Luffy right now.
you keep saying this, but it's not the argument so why does it keep getting referred to. you talk about Usopp giving luffy a hell of a fight and the truth is that, that opinion is nonesense for all of the reasons stated above.
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that's a key point there. he used finishing moves only, knowing that Usopp was literally a single blow away from defeat he decided to make it spectacular as opposed to the way it ended which was to simply wind him. In a true fight, you don't just throw finishing moves unless you're either cocky or for lack of better wordage "holding back".
Crap, we're getting into using hte same reasons to support two diffirent arguments again–finishing moves are holding back? It could also be a way of trying to finish the match quickly...
I doubt that was Luffy's strategy, since Usopp wasn't winded until he used the impact dial. The first time that Luffy used a "finisher"--gatling--Usopp countered it will no damage to himself. Besides that, while gatling would have ended the match it's also a speed move, which means that there was no disadvantage for Luffy to use it, strategically.
Then, Luffy contected a GG pistol--which was far from enough to finish Usopp it seems-- to set him up for the slower GG Bazooka, which Usopp blocked again. In the end though, Usopp seemed to get "winded" by accident, that is I doubt Luffy planned it.
Really, it seems like Luffy just won by stamina alone, which is something that only he could do with his rubber body. That's not a good strategy if you're holding back.
Also, Zoro was faster then Luffy--like in Whiskey Peak. Besides, Luffy used his "agility" to hit Usopp with a quick GG pistol anyway. But really, Luffy was as fast as usual in that fight..gatling was pretty much his max speed. (pre-gear)
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You guys are both using pretzel logic and arguing your own opinions with irrelevent semantics.
In other words you're saying nothing. You can stop any time.
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You guys are both using pretzel logic and arguing your own opinions with irrelevent semantics.
In other words you're saying nothing. You can stop any time.
wait a minute, pretzel logic on AP forums?! Repetitive statements?! Pardon my french, but
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Oh how perfect a post that'd be to end this thread, zeroxtb XD
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this thread will never end, unless Usopp managed to pwned at least a Shichibukai, and the fanboys will shout "WE TOLD YOU SO."
while the neutrals will be glad this is all over…..
and the anti-fanboys will be finding other stuff to complain about...Oda isn't going just let Usopp go....because he is/was a mugiwara....an at the end of Enies Lobby..... he will be a mugiwara..... again.....
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this thread will never end, unless Usopp managed to pwned at least a Shichibukai, and the fanboys will shout "WE TOLD YOU SO."
while the neutrals will be glad this is all over…..
and the anti-fanboys will be finding other stuff to complain about...Oda isn't going just let Usopp go....because he is/was a mugiwara....an at the end of Enies Lobby..... he will be a mugiwara..... again.....
This should be the ending topic…but it won't. That's the problem, it's mostly fanboyism disguised as logic here--on both sides. It's the side that convinces that they are logical that wins--which may be impossible in a work of fiction.
The next time Usopp wins a fight people will probably say stuff like "that villian sucked anyway," just like people are discrediting Usopp fight with the Mr. 4 pair (w. Chopper) now. I mean, do we not count it just cause it was so long ago? So what, by that logic Nami doesn't have a backstory anymore!
Still though, this Enies Lobby thing has me thinking--do people here have a sense of teamwork here? I mean, the SHs despite appearances all worked on one common goal here--getting Robin. Beating a CP9 was a part of that goal, while Usopp and Franky got Robin themselves.
I wonder who the next character to get this "Usopp treatment" is next. In Skypiea it was Sanji, here it's Usopp. So...Chopper next?
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new arc might be Zoro….because he needs to fix his katana......... I suppose.....
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new arc might be Zoro….because he needs to fix his katana......... I suppose.....
So what, Zoro gets his ass kicked by Tashigi?
OH,:pouty: that could be a legit storyline. Replace "kicked" by "competivly matched with no winner in sight" and you have another paralell to Kuina and Zoro's strive to be the stronger swordman.
Speaking of fanfiction, I also have some ideas on how Usopp might get his fight in despite the arc so far, but I'll leave them be.
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Or he might get a new sword. Of his three katana, Zoro probably had the least atachment to the Yaburshi, which was given to him by the store owner. His other swords are his sword of promise, and the cursed sword which "chose"him. So he might get an even better sword with his cut of the 100 million belli that he can attach an importance to.
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I hope they start switching roles a bit. Like Zoro fighting a guy like Bellamy and Luffy beating a guy like Sarquiss and Usopp beating the third guy whilst Sanji rushes ahead and gets the goal done. Rather than Luffy, Zoro and Sanji fighting whilst Usopp gets something done.
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I hope they start switching roles a bit. Like Zoro fighting a guy like Bellamy and Luffy beating a guy like Sarquiss and Usopp beating the third guy whilst Sanji rushes ahead and gets the goal done. Rather than Luffy, Zoro and Sanji fighting whilst Usopp gets something done.
You can wait for that. Put it in the "Usopp will do something awesome!!!" category. Wishful thinking.
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You can wait for that. Put it in the "Usopp will do something awesome!!!" category. Wishful thinking.
S'mostly a toss up. Many fans do not enjoy when the traditional shounen formula is betrayed, so odds are that Aldrich is correct. Anything is possible, but it's highly doubtful that Usopp will ever battle the main villian of the arc.
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I believe Usopp really will do something awesome….. later...... not now though......
his cowardice is still with him....
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@Octogon:
I can't understand why people keep trying to find an exuse for saying Luffy was holding back. People simply can't admit that Usopp is strong, just not physically.
Ussopp wasn't just doing well against Luffy, he was completley owning him. It's true that he didn't give Luffy any fatal injuriees, but Luffy didn't get him once before tthe final blow. Not once. That's what just a few hours of planning can so, and it's not like a genius like Usopp can't think of that during battle. The only thing hindering him is his own fear.
What else do you need?
If usopp have been consistent, ie he could fight other people, real enemies that is, the way he fought Luffy, people would be able to accept Usopp's strength more easily.
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If usopp have been consistent, ie he could fight other people, real enemies that is, the way he fought Luffy, people would be able to accept Usopp's strength more easily.
He can't really fight people the way he fought Luffy, not from what we've seen anyway. The reason he did so well against Luffy was because of his knowledge of Luffy's abilities. Usopp had planned out everything he was going to do before the fight. If he doesn't know how his opponent fights he can't do this. Of course we haven't seen everything his new weapon can do.
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You can wait for that. Put it in the "Usopp will do something awesome!!!" category. Wishful thinking.
aww… I'd say Usopp does awesome-somethings pretty often.
The awesome-somethings just aren't beating people up.
Which, y'know? I don't have a problem with. The loss of your non-fighter characters can spell the end of a shonen manga's greatness- certainly its intelligence. Just look at Dragonball... :ninja:
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Usopp is already very well close my favorite character (Sanji). Every real fan of the show likes Usopp. End of story.
I would like to bring up a fight from Episode 40 in which Usopp fought Chuu, a merman. Now, he used stragety to fight him, not like Zoro and Sanji, who just went in and kicked the crap out of people. That fight proved that Usopp was able to stand as a Straw Hat, and is not as much of a coward as people think he is.
I'd also like to site a scene from Eneis Lobby.
! In Chapter 419, just when Spandam is about to drag Robin across the bridge into the Gates of Justice, Usopp stands miles away on top of the Judiciary Tower, and blows Spandam and groups of Marines to bits. This not only saved Robin from the Gates of Justice, he also shot the Keys to Franky, who used them to undo Robin's handcuffs.
! To top it off, he rubbed his nose and said a cool catch phrase; "DELIVERY CONFIRMED."Usopp may very well be the weakest Straw Hat, but he is not weak. On many levels, he excels in ways the 3 main fighters could never hope to achieve.
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the whole Enies Lobby proves one thing… the mugiwaras worked together to free Robin....each doing what they do best..... that's what Oda was trying to do......when Nami was in trouble, Chopper appears, when Sanji got his ass handed to him, Nami took over, and when Usopp gets trashed, Sanji got his back....... and the most important one is when Spandam is dragging Robin, Usopp was the one the helped her..... BEFORE Franky got there......
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So, I take a nap and got a fever, then I find the topic I was posting in closed! Here's my response that was already finished that didn't get in:
They seemed to have not cared that much but then, bang, the Luffy vs Usopp moment happened and they started to.
Exactly, Oda made it an issue for us to think about. Would anyone really have hated on Usopp because he lost to the Franky Family? No, he's suffered tough times before, especially at Chuu and Kuro's hands, so it wasn't really all that painful.
Then Usopp stands up to Luffy and fights him, which suddenly introduced character depth no one was prepared for, which reeled in a whole mess of fans just for W7; Usopp had been secretly harbour feelings of weakness & despair, and his fight with Luffy was sort of an example to himself to confirm the truth.
Following this, Usopp becomes Sogeking so he can at least "pretend" to be strong, but in doing so he found himself doing exactly that; he wasn't just strong, he was brave as well. He confronted the CP9 by risking his life to talk to and save Robin, following his defeat of Corgi.
That was all great; but, once Sogeking hit Enies Lobby, his new character started to fall apart, which was the whole problem. What's the point in baiting everyone into thinking Usopp's going to progress as a character if he's going to end up going "back to normal" by the end of the arc? It's the same thing with trying to cast doubt into our minds about the Franky Family surviving Buster Call; we know Paulie and we saw them go into that crevase, but until Oda brought up the prospect of them being dead did we actually have reason to doubt they were alive.
What makes Sogeking worse though is that Oda promised us back in Little Garden that Usopp wanted to change, and during this long and tedious arc he lured us into thinking that this was "the next step" on his road to changing.
If that wasn't the case, the whole arc was pretty much to waste. All he needs to do is give Usopp a sappy welcome back into the crew to kill any credible development for him this arc.