Speaking of which…I'm really, really hoping that there's some catch to Brienne apparently taking Jaime to her, and that she's not just totally deceiving him and leading him off to be murdered. At the very least, tell him what's going on. On several different occasions, her narrative in AFfC seems to hint that Brienne's falling/fallen for Jaime (kinda harder to tell how he feels about her), and I'm a huge fan of their friendship. Really hope that doesn't all fall to ruin by this whole Stoneheart thing. Do we know which of them (or if both of them) are getting POV chapters in TWoW?
A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)
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Jaime's had POV chapters in three books. Brienne's had them in one (albeit quite a few chapters). I expect both of them to receive POV chapters but if one of them's losing them, it's Brienne.
Also, Jaime is mentioned to have left with Brienne in someone else's chapter at the end of ADWD. I think it's in a Cersei chapter.
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I know a lot of people will complain that this is just another travelogue, but the potential symbolism/foreshadowing is through the roof in this one. At the very least it's a nice change of pace from the show.
Just finished reading the chapter. I don't really see aynthing more in depth about it. ALl i see is another boring travelogue.
Since we are on this topic what does everyone think of Aegon and his company? I feel like this just another thing GRRM has added to make the story more unpreidctable and convoluted then it needs to be. I don't think aeogon will get anywhere really, and it's doubtful if he is even a real targaryan.
I think Dany and Jon are the main Targaryans here at play. The thing is it doesn't matter what you claim to be if you don't have the power nobody is going to believe you. Part of what makes Dany's claim so storng is that she has dragons. Which are still largely out of her control.
WOuld be cool to see Tyrion use those dragons. Seems more likely that he is about to use them in the TV show.
For once the greyjoys are interesting.
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Not every chapter needs to contain a horrific omg look what that bastard did, a description of a man dying slowly, an edgy sex scene or another shocking twist of events.
I sort of enjoyed this chapter, it had a slow pace but seems to be foreshadowing a number of things too. Its a setup chapter, I guess. My favourite released TWoW chapter so far is the Sansa one. Nice to see Sansa and Littlefinger's plots in motion.
Is that Arianne in the picture? She looks fine af.
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@le:
Not every chapter needs to contain a horrific omg look what that bastard did, a description of a man dying slowly, an edgy sex scene or another shocking twist of events.
I sort of enjoyed this chapter, it had a slow pace but seems to be foreshadowing a number of things too. Its a setup chapter, I guess. My favourite released TWoW chapter so far is the Sansa one. Nice to see Sansa and Littlefinger's plots in motion.
Is that Arianne in the picture? She looks fine af.
no, but there needs to be plot progression. Refer to the last two books for thousands of pages of nothing happening. Plot progression doesn't mean shock value.
ALso, what exactly is this foreshadowing?
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Elia fucking things up? Daenerys fucking things up? Young aegon fucking things up? Cognington being ruthless? Ariadne trying to be a decent player?
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Elia fucking things up? Daenerys fucking things up? Young aegon fucking things up? Cognington being ruthless? Ariadne trying to be a decent player?
zzzzz
I think dorne sucks. But it sucks even more in the TV. The greyjoys are interesting for once. And i wonder if the TV show will go on ahead with the invasion of mereen so he can marry Danyrys.
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Some can like the rapey pirate vikings that worship chutulu, others can like the socially progressive sand people who are hellbent on vengance.
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Some can like the rapey pirate vikings that worship chutulu, others can like the socially progressive sand people who are hellbent on vengance.
you're making it sound like there is anything wrong with that. It's a fantasy show with lots of violence. And these socially progressive people are boring as fuck since GRRM hasn't really done anything with them. The greyjoys are relevant because they are actually DOING something.
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Some can like the rapey pirate vikings that worship chutulu, others can like the socially progressive sand people who are hellbent on vengance.
It is true that the Greyjoys (or Iron Islands in general) have the most interesting lore in Westeros tho.
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The Ironborn are fascinating in how they swing from incredibly shrewd traders to fanatic racial supremacists every other generation.
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I'd argue high garden is interesting too and casterly rock. Aren't we going to be shown caterly rock eventually? I wonder if it will happen in the tv show. But yeah the tyrells are way more interesting and relevant.
It's cool how they are not afraid to die in the water even though armor is pretty much a drawback to have when near water. I suppose they are not really good fighters at land so I wonder how they'd do in the fight for mereen.
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The Tyrells are like the least interesting major house in Westeros. Olenna's cool and Margaery's clever, and I'm fond of hotheaded Loras, but the rest of the family is just boring. Mace is a bumbling idiot, Willas is the nice guy who finished last, and Garlan just seems like an agreeable bro. Sure they're important and maybe there are some skeletons in the garden, but compared to secret heirs, secret affairs, fratricide, patricide, spousal murder, fratricide again, and rampant Dornish shenanigans, the Tyrells are annoyingly unified. If I had to choose between a Highgarden and Oldtown plot, I'd go with the maesters.
Casterly Rock is awesome and I'd love to explore it in the books properly.
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The Tyrells (and the Starks back in the day) fill the niche of "family with pretty much no internal tensions and is actually nice to their peasants". In fact, I think the Reach has the least assholes-per-square-mile of all seven kingdoms. Like…only Randyll Tarly.
Mace is a good man and I support him in all his wacky adventures.
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Randy and whomever currently runs the "let's kill the dragons" conspiracy, are the only known assholes in the reach.
And honestly eliminating the nuke lizards is not an evil thing.
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I don't think any of the main houses treat their smallfolk poorly. By waging war with each other they treat everyone else's smallfolk like garbage though. I have a hard time picturing Tywin not understanding the concept of keeping the little people happy but at the same time he has no problem sending Clegane to rape and pillage the Riverlands.
I like that Highgarden is free of internal struggles. It makes them stronger than the Lannisters even if they were equal in resources and I think that lack of internal conflict speaks well about the Tyrells as a family. I wouldn't want to spend time in Highgarden but I enjoy all the characters who are from Highgarden when they're playing the game.
The house with the least interesting characters is Tully or Aryn for me. They're weak, boring, and not really playing the game. Just getting used by people who are.
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@Cyan:
The Tyrells (and the Starks back in the day) fill the niche of "family with pretty much no internal tensions and is actually nice to their peasants". In fact, I think the Reach has the least assholes-per-square-mile of all seven kingdoms. Like…only Randyll Tarly.
Mace is a good man and I support him in all his wacky adventures.
And the Florents, too.
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All the Florents we meet and hate are technically Dragonstone bannermen so they don't count
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All the Florents we meet are also failed players or fanatics. I've never taken one seriously.
Highgarden and the Reach are very much in the vein of classic knights fairy tales, like Camelot. It's good for variety but makes them personally one of the least compelling families.
I've always been partial to the Greyjoys and Martells. Might have something to do with their kickass house words.
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Aryn is supposed to be important because of sansa and beilish. But with there being barely any plot movement i can see how you think they are boring. Really they are boirng, becuse beilish and sansa is supposed to make it interesting.
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Poor Jon Arryn. You're the reason Westeros is the way it is and everyone who cared about you is dead.
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What does everyone think of these major changes done to Lord beilishes and Sansa's story.
Remember in teh book Sansa is never in harms way. He sends Jaine pool I believe a fake sansa who passes off as her, but not actually sansa.
It seems more in character for Beilish to do that and avoid getting sansa in harms way. Although, we dont know much at all about what happens after that since winds hasn't come out yet, I wonder how it plays out in the books that they decided to change so much.
Maybe the book is so huge and half of it spend Lord beilish doing politics at the Vale that they just decide to on with war instead. Which I don't doubt will eventually happen in the books to.
Christ episode 4 no plot development. I was hoping some real winds of winter material but it seems like nothing will happen until like episode 9 or something with some dance with dragons elements still in (greyjoy helping out Tyrion?).
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Grrm read a new Aeron chapter at Balticon, and somehow it made its way into the internet. It's called "The Forsaken".
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Euron officially poised as the penultimate villain before the White Walkers.
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@Cyan:
Euron officially poised as the penultimate villain before the White Walkers.
As I'm trying to find the chapter mentioned by aka, how does he accomplish this?
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A link of an approximate transcript, for those curious
Jesus, Euron makes Ramsay look like the Tooth Fairy. I've seen a theory that he's being influenced by the Others to weaken Westeros because good god that man is power mad.
Short summary:
! Aeron's getting dragged around from dungeon to dungeon as Euron makes his way south. He's starving and crawling with parasites, and thinking back on his dead brothers.
! Euron has left the Shield Islands behind and is preparing for a battle with the Redwyne and Hightower fleets near the Arbor. Euron straps his pregnant young captive and Aeron to the prow of the Silence at the end of the chapter, presumably to die. He's also been collecting priests of other religions and cutting out their tongues, including Pyat Pree.
! Euron's been drinking lots of shade-of-the-evening. He's got a new shark tooth crown, a Crow's Eye banner, and a set of Valyrian Steel armor.
! Aeron's been forced to drink the shade-of-the-evening too sometimes, giving him some crazy dreams full of probable symbolism, including Euron sitting on the Iron Throne while creatures dragons, krakens, and sphinxes kneel, dwarves go full Hieronymus Bosch at his feet, and the forest burns behind him. Another dream has Euron getting Cthulhu-face while a shadowy feminine figure with hands of pale fire stands beside him.
! Oh, and Euron confirms he's killed three of the seven Greyjoy brothers and molested Aeron as a child. -
Euron is what Ramsay would be if Ramsay had any ambition beyond "have fun".
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Euron is Ramsay with flair
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A link of an approximate transcript, for those curious
Jesus, Euron makes Ramsay look like the Tooth Fairy. I've seen a theory that he's being influenced by the Others to weaken Westeros because good god that man is power mad.
Short summary:
! Aeron's getting dragged around from dungeon to dungeon as Euron makes his way south. He's starving and crawling with parasites, and thinking back on his dead brothers.
! Euron has left the Shield Islands behind and is preparing for a battle with the Redwyne and Hightower fleets near the Arbor. Euron straps his pregnant young captive and Aeron to the prow of the Silence at the end of the chapter, presumably to die. He's also been collecting priests of other religions and cutting out their tongues, including Pyat Pree.
! Euron's been drinking lots of shade-of-the-evening. He's got a new shark tooth crown, a Crow's Eye banner, and a set of Valyrian Steel armor.
! Aeron's been forced to drink the shade-of-the-evening too sometimes, giving him some crazy dreams full of probable symbolism, including Euron sitting on the Iron Throne while creatures dragons, krakens, and sphinxes kneel, dwarves go full Hieronymus Bosch at his feet, and the forest burns behind him. Another dream has Euron getting Cthulhu-face while a shadowy feminine figure with hands of pale fire stands beside him.
! Oh, and Euron confirms he's killed three of the seven Greyjoy brothers and molested Aeron as a child.So, he's basically the Antichrist?
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@S.C.:
So, he's basically the Antichrist?
He really, really wants to be the Antichrist.
Euron is an Ironborn, though, so he'll probably fuck it up.
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I knew Euron would be a major player guy's the most fucked up character in the series. He Makes every fucked up monster in this series look like saints. They really messed up Euron in the show guess they love Ramsy too much.
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So, Winds of Winter still won't be out this year.
But apparently in his copious freetime Martin has put together a different 1000 page book about Westeros.
http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/
FIRE & BLOOD comes out in November and will cover all the Targaryen kings. It'll contain all short stories, some of which have been published before, and hundreds of pages of new material. But not a typical novel, a history. So, sort of Martin's version of Silmarillion, though not going back to the creation of the world or battles with angels.
Ya know, I'm a heavy proponent of the the writer is not our slave, it takes the time it takes, have to do other projects to keep it fresh and all that…. but even I have a threshold and that's that Martin did a completely different 1000 pages GoT book before finisihing the main story. If it was just a little thing like Dunk and Egg, or a 100 page novella... or something completely different and an outer space Haviland Tuff story to cleanse his pallette, or editing some more Wild Cards, or him doing one more Beauty and the Beast story, great! But a full blown 1000 page GoT novel that isn't GoT (and plans to do a second half!) is just.... argh. Did the show getting ahead of him just take all the pressure off?
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Holy fuck. And we give Oda grief for taking breaks and stuff.
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Winds isn't coming out until at the earliest 2020.
Dance is never coming out.
Dunk and Egg will never be finished.
We're never getting those fucking ice spiders.
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I have no problem with the book taking five or six years to write. It takes the time it takes. ANd I don't want to be one of those assholes that harps on Martin's age (he's almost 70) or worries that it'll never finish. I'd rather it take a while and be good forever instead of being meh like the last one.
But now at minimum we'll be hitting 8 years before the next one. The entire tv show will have started and finished in that time. It's just… threshold of patience and understanding being reached.
Aso, Kingkiller Chronicle. Exact same problem and timeframe. Same exact issue with bonus books coming out before finishing the actual story. Patrick Rothfus, what gives?
At least we have Brandon Sanderson cranking novels out like clockwork.
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What I read about Rothfus is that he had to "dismantelle" the whole book in these years, I don't get it and it will be most likelly something like the merenesse knot.
I'm thinking on skipping the targaryen book. The story on that one is that Elio and Linda are the ones writting it on notes that he has of the kings, but even that …
Arg, I'm salty about this. IDC.
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Good lord, I just checked the last time someone posted here. Two years ago, and not a inch close to Winds of Winter.
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What I read about Rothfus is that he had to "dismantelle" the whole book in these years, I don't get it and it will be most likelly something like the merenesse knot.
Supposedly the entire trilogy was written before the first one came out. But that's… clearly not actually the case at this point.
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He either has no clue how to bring all the plots together to finish the story out, obviously has the big points planned, but maybe no clue how to connect them well, or is waiting on how the series finale will be received etc.
But ultimately I gave up hope. Books will never be finished.
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@S.C.:
Holy fuck. And we give Oda grief for taking breaks and stuff.
Wait. Who does what?
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Basically the fame and pressure got to GRRM's head. I don't know if he's too worried about making it perfect or if he's just completely deprioritized it, but something has clearly gone wrong. We got updates on GRRM inching towards completion for the first couple years but it feels like the last two have been total radio silence.
Can we just get Brandon Sanderson to ghostwrite this series too?
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Can we just get Brandon Sanderson to ghostwrite this series too?
I'd rather we keep getting Stormlight books. Already they've officially moved to a 3 year schedule instead of the 2 Sanderson originally hoped… and Wheel of Time delayed the second book a lot.
But Sanderson also cranks out 2 or 3 books a year when he's not doing the massive tomes so he can be forgiven.
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I've seen some people say that, well, once the show concludes the story they'll have no reason to read the books anymore. I don't feel that way at all. The drip in quality is very noticeable (and the rise in quality when they adapt a book story arc and do it well). The show - from what I've read - have only been given a few end-game details; everything else is their own. So I want to read the remainder of the books, I want to see how George handles Jon, how he handles Jaime, Lady Stoneheart and even Young Griff.
And I understand writing them is difficult, and have become more difficult as the books went along. He had to involve all 7 realms, had to introduce new Iron Island(?) characters, a huge Dorne plot, an Young Griff plot that surely can end only one way. It's a complicated and interwoven web.
I'm patient but why on earth did he have to get sidetracked with writing a Targeryen history book …
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I've had a bad feeling ever since the show was first announced. Definitely not gonna pay for the book once it comes out. Take that!
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The show was what made me aware of the franchise, but once I moved to the books I dropped the show entirely (I think two or three episodes into the second season), so that won't be a problem for me. But I fear GRRM may end up thinking "you know what? Let's say the story moved on to the show and that's how it actually ends. People already got an ending, I will just focus on adding side stories".
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I don't think that's how George thinks. He's doing westeros stuff out of obligation to the fans, I feel.
I read a few of his pre ASOIAF stuff and his short sci fi stories were pretty good. Dark and bleak as well.
My guess is that if he could do what he wants, he'd do another sci fi short story or something that doesn't involve wind or winter.
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Georgieboy is also pressuring himself to actually do things differently from the show in order to keep surprising fans. He's on record saying he's gone back and rewritten things in TWoW in order to diverge from the show.