Yes but isn't it bad for an episode to rely so much on a viewer who doesn't know aything about the angels? In the twoparter there is so much content that it doesn't matter if you already know everything about the angels everything else is still good.
Doctor Who
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The point is they go from
creepy statues with timetravel paradox powers
to
unobservant generic monsters that snap necks.It's not that they're dependent on mystery to be creepy and interesting… its just that Moffat actively ignored the things that worked in the first place and changed their rules randomly. So of course by the time you backwards saw their first appearance they seemed underpowered.
If their freezing in place rules had remained intact, and they hadn't resorted to just... killing people... they would have kept a lot of their menace and uniqueness.
But nope, Amy can just stand in the middle of them with her eyes closed and stumble around for a while, and they just don't notice... rather than their freezing being an instinctual thing.
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Angels should be put to rest, preferably for ten years.
And Moffat should stop trying to reinvent slenderman.Meanwhile, who is hyped for arguably best dalek episode in ages?
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I try not to be hyped for anything, it tends to cause unrealistic expectations. I am, however, excited for a new episode of doctor who, which is almost always a good thing.
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No harm in unrealistic expectations when subject in question has great chance to met them.
Although, yeah, might be wise position. -
In all seriousness, I just want the daleks to be as scary as how imagined they would be when I first heard of them. My friend described them to me before I even knew what Doctor Who was, and he told me one dalek was enough to destroy a planet. I'm not saying the daleks need to adhere to my friends description in order for me to like them, but just hearing that, plus seeing a picture of one, came across as a really scary and neat concept.
And then actually seeing their newer episodes kinda killed it for me. The S1 episode is great, but that's about it. Maybe Asylum of the Daleks, but they were more scary due to how demented they were.
On top of that, I'm not a huge fan of the voice of the regular ones. The "officer" class (Victory of the Daleks variants) have a fantastic voice that actually sounds menacing. I feel the current voices are becoming a little hard to take seriously. -
The Daleks have never been scary, honestly. The Cybermen, on the other hand, were kind of scary back in the 60's.
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Into the Dalek was pretty good. End fight was rather naff though.
Conclusion was pretty evocative of the eccleston ep "Dalek", which was great for me as I loved that episode.
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It hasn't aired here yet…we have 5 more hours to go.
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I tried finding a decent live stream of BBC America, but could only find some lousy ones. So I'm just going to wait until iTunes has it up, which is usually Sunday.
The Daleks have never been scary, honestly. The Cybermen, on the other hand, were kind of scary back in the 60's.
They were awesome in that one episode where Simon Pegg and his friends went on a pub crawl to like, 12 different bars and inadvertently caused a post-apocalyptic world.
:ninja:
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Good ep. Hopefully we see Rusty again. Just goes to show, less is more with the Daleks. One of maybe five is menacing, an army is just a joke.
Capaldi is good, no argument, but he's still not quite grabbing me yet as the Doctor. I'm sure he will in time.
Strange that Matt Smith is the first one I've had trouble letting go apparently. (Pertwee is one of my favorites, so… I dunno.) Heck, I latched onto 8 and the War Doctor just fine.
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Something felt off for me. I still am not sure there has been that moment yet to define Capaldi as the Doctor. He definitely does a great job but there is something missing. I do miss the music from Smith's Era though… a lot.
I could have done without all of the Danny Pink stuff though...
So far, I felt like both episodes were OK... but it is missing something.
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I could have done without all of the Danny Pink stuff though…
Well, thats setting up for him to appear later. So… better than him just coming out of nowhere with a relationship with Clara when the time comes?
In all the ways that Amy and Rory's best friend Mels didn't work coming out of nowhere.
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True, well, maybe have the scenes written a bit better. There are ways though to set things up where it isn't so awkward… I dunno, I just couldn't wait for it to be over. The scene at the end didn't bother me though.
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! Episode was better than last week's (low bar), still was only okay though imo.
! I liked that it took its time to breathe and just have characters have moments instead of jumping all over the place. I also liked how it took its time to slowly deliver some philosophical dialogue instead of just cramming a bunch of gibberish spoken at a million times a second.
! There were some plot holes and inconsistencies. Capaldi felt kinda cold and cruel at times like when that one soldier got wiped and he gave him some radiation pills just before just to track his liquid corpse…
! Big fucking plothole, so you get the Doctor to fix the Dalek and he fixes the Dalek and then the Dalek starts destroying everything and you act surprised...DURRRRRRRRRRRRRR I know Daleks are like indestructible so maybe you didn't have any containment cells on the rebel ship so maybe you should have tried NOT fixing it then. I guess it's a matter of "hey, do you want this Dalek episode to happen or not?"
! Thematically, I have an even bigger issue. The episode is trying to make a point that anything even a Dalek is capable of being good. But to do this, you have to seriously damage a Dalek and alter it physically...then it's not really showing its potential for good as much as being brainwashed/manufactured to be good...is it? I dunno, it came off as weird and inconsistent. -
I'd be a lot more annoyed with those scenes if we didn't know this guy was coming back. If it was just isolated alone within the episode it would have been really weird.
I also assume those are the Moffatt written scenes since they're arc related.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@TLC:
! Episode was better than last week's (low bar), still was only okay though imo.
! I liked that it took its time to breathe and just have characters have moments instead of jumping all over the place. I also liked how it took its time to slowly deliver some philosophical dialogue instead of just cramming a bunch of gibberish spoken at a million times a second.
! There were some plot holes and inconsistencies. Capaldi felt kinda cold and cruel at times like when that one soldier got wiped and he gave him some radiation pills just before just to track his liquid corpse…
! Big fucking plothole, so you get the Doctor to fix the Dalek and he fixes the Dalek and then the Dalek starts destroying everything and you act surprised...DURRRRRRRRRRRRRR I know Daleks are like indestructible so maybe you didn't have any containment cells on the rebel ship so maybe you should have tried NOT fixing it then. I guess it's a matter of "hey, do you want this Dalek episode to happen or not?"
! Thematically, I have an even bigger issue. The episode is trying to make a point that anything even a Dalek is capable of being good. But to do this, you have to seriously damage a Dalek and alter it physically...then it's not really showing its potential for good as much as being brainwashed/manufactured to be good...is it? I dunno, it came off as weird and inconsistent.Well, given that they're genetically altered and programmed to begin with… The hope is that if it was possible to reach one and change it, through whatever means, especially if it was something that could be done naturally, it'd be possible to reach more. Once you know the trick, then... you can try again.
! And while it needed the radiation poisoning to go against its programming and keeping from locking things down… the witnessing a birth of a star WAS a legit thing that DID change that Dalek... the hardwired programming just clamped down on it immediately when it could.
! Not really a repeatable event as it turned out, but the creature at its core, when not completely hardwired to the machinery, COULD change in a few aspects. The actual species themselves CAN change outside of the system wiring that Davros came up with. Hell, they used to be humanoid! -
Pretty solid episode. Liked it better than last week's.
! I really don't get though why it never occurred to anyone that the Dalek could have just been lying.
! And yeah, Capaldi still has yet to completely sell me as The Doctor, but he's doing a fine job regardless.
! Really looking forward to another historical episode next. Feels like a long time since we last had one of those. -
I wonder why
! they deleted scene with Rusty self-destructing and taking dalek ship with him.
Dalek!Oswin and Rusty for companions for a season.
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I wonder why
! they deleted scene with Rusty self-destructing and taking dalek ship with him.
So the character could come back later in another story obviously. Be a shame to throw away that potential AGAIN.
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I thought it was very good. Of course I had few issues last week which some did, but I think this was one of the best non-special Doctor Episodes I have seen in a very long time.
What did you guys think of "if only you weren't a soldier" thing? I immediately thought of the Brigadier and UNIT…friends he loved and respected but rarely saw eye to eye with. Was it still too harsh? I know some people in the military that didn't like it, though I don't think it's inconsistent...and I also think it's probably leading to something specifically with Danny.
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I'd be a lot more annoyed with those scenes if we didn't know this guy was coming back. If it was just isolated alone within the episode it would have been really weird.
I also assume those are the Moffatt written scenes since they're arc related.
I figured he was coming back based on how he was introduced, but I really haven't done any reading on the upcoming season and wouldn't have known if they didn't introduce him as they did.
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So, after hanging around various forums and social media, this is been basically what I see:
Person 1) This is amazing and brilliant, this is the best Doctor Who we've seen in ages!
Person 2) I can't watch this anymore, it's it's a terrible mess, the show I love is gone.
Person 3) Peter Capaldi is brilliant, he was born the play the Doctor, he is completely holding together the show! But I can't stand Clara, what a waste of space, she can F*ck off.
Person 4) Not really liking Capaldi, he's just not the Doctor to me, only Clara is holding the show together for me, Jenna Coleman is the best part of the show. -
Which person are you?
I'll take best of both worlds.This is amazing and brilliant, this is the best Doctor Who we've seen in ages! But I can't stand Clara, what a waste of space.
I enjoy new series immensely, but still worry that hordes of persons 2 & 4
aka Tumblrruin the reaction enough for Moffat to change it to either "beloved" zany series 7 style or make it even more edgy out of spite, which would be not good (and he is petty enough to do that). -
Which person are you?
I'll take best of both worlds.I'm the one on the left for panels 1&2, neither on panel 3 (I don't love Rose or Clara), and the one on the right in panel 4.
I enjoy new series immensely, but still worry that hordes of persons 2 & 4
aka Tumblrruin the reaction enough for Moffat to change it to either "beloved" zany series 7 style or make it even more edgy out of spite, which would be not good (and he is petty enough to do that).I wouldn't worry about it, the same people complaining now are essentially the same people complaining about Moffat in the last 3 seasons. Tumblr hasn't been too bad, really, at least not where I read. They still hate Moffat but they love Peter and Jenna.
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I saw people complain about Doctor being Evil Murder Man of Murder, about him teasing Clara and about "soldiers" remark (despite that is obviously linked to his own insecurity after Rusty encounter, as well as setup of Danny arc). Oh, and that it's Dalek rip-off.
…Not a single valid complaint.
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I saw people complain about Doctor being Evil Murder Man of Murder, about him teasing Clara and about "soldiers" remark (despite that is obviously linked to his own insecurity after Rusty encounter, as well as setup of Danny arc). Oh, and that it's Dalek rip-off.
…Not a single valid complaint.
Well that last one is half valid. This episode certainly wouldn't have happened without "Dalek". But I think it has enough new ideas to set itself apart, even if the punchline is much the same(to the point that I knew what the dalek would say when the doctor hooked his mind up to it).
The other complaints are stupid though. Saying he's evil because he doesn't say "I'm sorry I'm so sorry" when he can't save someone is absurd. I like his tone more, reminds me a bit of mccoy or eccleston. That "he's the first layer" line was pure gold.
Soldiers thing makes it sound like they've never watched who. Letts/Dicks and RTD have both covered this before. Only difference is once again the tone
What did you guys think of "if only you weren't a soldier" thing? I immediately thought of the Brigadier and UNIT…friends he loved and respected but rarely saw eye to eye with. Was it still too harsh? I know some people in the military that didn't like it, though I don't think it's inconsistent...and I also think it's probably leading to something specifically with Danny.
It makes sense for him. The only unit guys he let travel with him on a regular basis were Liz and Jo who were civilians, and Harry who was a doctor. He's got to be thinking if he takes a soldier with him he's risking a future "pro-human" resolution like the brig stopping the silurians(gotta love 44 year old continuity).
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How come Rusty sees the divine creation when he looks in the Doctor's mind ?
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Well that last one is half valid. This episode certainly wouldn't have happened without "Dalek". But I think it has enough new ideas to set itself apart, even if the punchline is much the same(to the point that I knew what the dalek would say when the doctor hooked his mind up to it).
It was the same punchline, but thinking about it, I don't think it was meant the same way as the first Dalek. The first Dalek was clearly using it as an insult against him, this Dalek seemed to think that hatred against the daleks was not a bad thing, but at the same time I felt like he was genuinely admiring some good qualities about the Doctor. It's another ambiguous statement.
With Danny and the soldier thing, they're obviously setting Danny up to be an admirable person. I am not sure if he's going to end up proving the Doctor's prejudice right or wrong, or maybe both.
How come Rusty sees the divine creation when he looks in the Doctor's mind ?
Reference to "The Other", maybe? RTD and Moffat haven't been too keen on those ideas, though.
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Well, the first time was "YOU WOULD MAKE A GOOD DALEK"… intending simply "you would make for a good killer" and this time it was "YOU ARE A GOOD DALEK". "You actually are literally one of my species but with a nicer side".
There's a subtle difference in meaning there, but significant I think in terms of what the Dalek is trying to convey.
Would be nice if Clara had mentioned that she was once a good Dalek… but I'm starting to think all her alt lives have basically been phased out now... similar to Rory's 2000 years. (And her uber hacking that she should still have in this life.)
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Reference to "The Other", maybe? RTD and Moffat haven't been too keen on those ideas, though.
And this season also introduced the paradise XD
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How come Rusty sees the divine creation when he looks in the Doctor's mind ?
Doctor has singlehandedly been quite a destroyer of stuff when he's felt inclined.
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The same novels with the idea of "The Other" also featured a personification of Death as sort of a god of Gallifrey…Torchwood had a personification of Death as well, but I don't think any relation was intended.
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I enjoyed the episode. Definitely one of the better Dalek stories, and I was worried since the concept of a good dalek wasn't executed the best in the past.
Perfectly fine with the actions that the Doctor made, it's getting ridiculous seeing some people cry out how the Doctor "would never do that!" to
! the people he let die, even though there were valid reasons. The Doctor was never a 100% pacifist peace keeper of the galaxy, I think I recall Pertwee once shooting two aliens to death, and he wasn't cornered or anything.
! I can see where they'd build up that expectation, though, since the previous Docs 10 and 11 were generally advocating peaceful and positive results.I loved that there was only a handful of daleks that made the situation dire, and that there was only 1 dalek fleet ship and not billions. Like Robby said, less is more.
It was also very interesting to see that the dalek saw
! hatred in the Doctor's mind. It's not exactly new since the same thing was said in Asylum w/ Smith, but the way Capaldi felt some guilt and remorse was intriguing. Even though the hate is what moved Rusty to destroy all the daleks and saved everyone, 12 still felt pretty bad about it. The fact that he feels guilty for all that hate shows him to be more of a nice guy at heart than anything.
Love to see Rusty return in the future sometime. Wouldn't mind if he became the new K-9 of the TARDIS.
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Clara is really head over heels about Danny isn't she. I mean she was smilling the entire episode, despite the fact that people died and only showed brief curiousity in being inside a Dalek.
I don't know whether its intentional but I think they're showing that she's begginning to loose that wonder the Doctor looks for in a companion?
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Clara is really head over heels about Danny isn't she. I mean she was smilling the entire episode, despite the fact that people died and only showed brief curiousity in being inside a Dalek.
I don't know whether its intentional but I think they're showing that she's begginning to loose that wonder the Doctor looks for in a companion?
Jenna Louise Coleman did say…
! That she'll be leaving the show at season's end.
My theory: Remember that time when Danny was being called a 'lady killer?'That wasn't a metaphor either.
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Jenna Louise Coleman did say…
! That she'll be leaving the show at season's end.
I haven't seen any official word in that yet. It could be temporary, too.
My theory: Remember that time when Danny was being called a 'lady killer?'
That wasn't a metaphor either.
Interesting idea…maybe what he was crying about.
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The same novels with the idea of "The Other" also featured a personification of Death as sort of a god of Gallifrey…Torchwood had a personification of Death as well, but I don't think any relation was intended.
Holy shit. Is the Doctor the Great Other, and Missy the maiden of Heaven? A battle between heaven and hell that would make Rassilon piss his pants!? :ninja:
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Probably not, but who knows. ;)
I still tend to think that "heaven" has something to do with that virtual world that River is in being corrupted.
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I really enjoyed this episode.
I semi-groaned at the idea of yet another story featuring the Daleks in such a short space of time, but this was something different and showed the Daleks as a real threat again.
I'm starting to really dislike Clara though, particularly for her self-righteousness.
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I semi-groaned at the idea of yet another story featuring the Daleks in such a short space of time, but this was something different and showed the Daleks as a real threat again.
I really wish the Nation estate would allow the bbc to have a series without a dalek in. Having to include them in every single series hurts them
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I really wish the Nation estate would allow the bbc to have a series without a dalek in. Having to include them in every single series hurts them
Did Season 6 have a Dalek episode in it?
If there was then I'm totally blanking on it.
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Did Season 6 have a Dalek episode in it?
If there was then I'm totally blanking on it.
No, season 6 merely had a single Dalek make a brief appearance in The Wedding of River Song, making it the closest we've gotten to a truly Dalek-free season of the new series.
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Did Season 6 have a Dalek episode in it?
If there was then I'm totally blanking on it.
No focused episode, but they were part of the assembly of threats in The Wedding of River Song.
Moffatt's said he wanted to take a break from the Daleks because they do lose their threat when they lose so frequently but…
gotta have them every season. Or risk losing the rights apparently? http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Daleks_-_list_of_appearances
Though it seems like they had a couple seasons where they went absent in the old show, 5, 6, 7, 8, then 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, and 19, 23 and 24. (Granted, Genesis of the Daleks was in season 12, and how do you top that anytime soon?) So I'm not sure at exactly what point the estate started insisting they show up regularly, but it wasn't on the old show.
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On the other hand, the Daleks were defeated by a Dalek for once. So the honor is safe.
By the way, I don't know if it was just a weird acting performance, but Clara seems to be enjoying too much the grapnel ride that costed the life of the second soldier.
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I really enjoyed this episode.
I semi-groaned at the idea of yet another story featuring the Daleks in such a short space of time, but this was something different and showed the Daleks as a real threat again.
I'm starting to really dislike Clara though, particularly for her self-righteousness.
Hmm, what do you mean by self-righteousness and why does it annoy you?
I've seen her be honest with the Doctor. Appeal to his humanity and be the carer actually.
I like her in this two episodes she's more fleshed out and we can see her have actual character. Like the whole talking before she thinks thing.
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I agree with kevo…Clara just seems, more, normal? The Doctor is being far more self-righteous.
Although when she said "carer", I think she was thinking more of this: A carer is anyone who cares, unpaid, for a friend or family member who due to illness, disability, a mental health problem or an addiction cannot cope without their support. :happy:
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Her slap was well executed.
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Moffatt's said he wanted to take a break from the Daleks because they do lose their threat when they lose so frequently but…
gotta have them every season. Or risk losing the rights apparently? http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Daleks_…of_appearances
Though it seems like they had a couple seasons where they went absent in the old show, 5, 6, 7, 8, then 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, and 19, 23 and 24. (Granted, Genesis of the Daleks was in season 12, and how do you top that anytime soon?) So I'm not sure at exactly what point the estate started insisting they show up regularly, but it wasn't on the old show.
When RTD brought it back, he had several rounds of tortured negotiation with them that often made front page news - at first it was even thought that doctor who would have to restart without the daleks ever being available.
Eventually the deal was done and the rumours were that RTD had to agree to use the Daleks at least once a series. Everyone thought the rumour was ludicrous back then and laughed them off, but after RTD had his big blowoff with The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, which would have been the perfect time to rest them, he used them almost straight away in waters of mars and then moff used them every single series, which doesn't sound like something either of them would do.
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I always took the whole Nation Estate thing as a rumor, I couldn't ever find a reliable source that says they're required to have Daleks every episode. Although seeing the trends, it definitely would explain a lot.
Good way to kill the scare of your most iconic enemy.
Probably not, but who knows. ;)
I still tend to think that "heaven" has something to do with that virtual world that River is in being corrupted.
Ooo I like that. Originally, I though Heaven was something that had to do with robots/androids, considering the season finale contains Cybermen, and is titled Death in Heaven. But the recent tease of Heaven in the dalek episode kinda shot that down considering that soldier was human.
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@Mr.:
The Doctor was never a 100% pacifist peace keeper of the galaxy, I think I recall Pertwee once shooting two aliens to death, and he wasn't cornered or anything.