This week on GoT: ideological artillery!
Shame there's no Belwas. Strong Belwas is strong. And missed :(
This week on GoT: ideological artillery!
Shame there's no Belwas. Strong Belwas is strong. And missed :(
Strong Belwas missed indeed…
! First getting it out of the way, I didn't like:
After 4 season I finally dropped a tear watching Got. The farewell from Tyrion was amazing! Oh My Pod!!!
The champions fight was stupid but nicely done.
I still have trouble with the guy constantly saving Aria while being rude to stranger. What's wrong with him?
Two things I wasn't expecting, Snow needs to go back to the north and the collar throwing. It's good to be surprised from time to time.
Oh and here is a funny "honest" trailer for Got (without spoiler).
This week on GoT: ideological artillery!
Shame there's no Belwas. Strong Belwas is strong. And missed :(
Yeah, would've been better. Her reason for not sending Grey Worm should count for Daario as well…
I was really, really unhappy that they turned the sex scene into a form of rape. In the book, Cersei doesn't refuse him like she does here. Jaime is a good character, and the writers have added some form of cruelty here that was really not needed. They've done this on other occasions, too, and I do not like it.
After 4 season I finally dropped a tear watching Got. The farewell from Tyrion was amazing! Oh My Pod!!!
The champions fight was stupid but nicely done.
I still have trouble with the guy constantly saving Aria while being rude to stranger. What's wrong with him?
Two things I wasn't expecting, Snow needs to go back to the north and the collar throwing. It's good to be surprised from time to time.Oh and here is a funny "honest" trailer for Got (without spoiler).
Lost it at Lord Friend Zone xD
I've been calling Ser Jorah 'Ser Nice Guy' since series one. He really helps typify that trope.
Anyhow, I'm in agreement about the handling of the C/J scene. This is pretty good on it: http://www.wired.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-rape/
He didn't realize? That's fucking terryfing.
"So yeah, i was making go into this bus and they would go someplace. The busses came back empty and sometimes smeared with blood. Who would have thought i was partaking genocide? "
uh…is that too much? If it is maybe this post should be deleted. I know there's a line. It's just that i start running whenever i see it :(
Comment in that link: "Someone needs to get laid."
HOLY SHET.
HOLY.
SHET.
[[URL="http://s56.photobucket.com/user/prismal/media/octopusreaction3.jpg.html"]
Just….why? how can someone take away that from the article?
Also, Stannis blanches at hiring sellswords … and Davos points out he's willing to use blood magic. Er, I know they needed to seed the Golden Company and all, but it's so contradictory. Stannis hired Salla apparently perfectly happily, who's a pirate, but won't hire the most professional mercenary company on the grounds that they're ... sellswords??
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Yeah, would've been better. Her reason for not sending Grey Worm should count for Daario as well…
I was really, really unhappy that they turned the sex scene into a form of rape. In the book, Cersei doesn't refuse him like she does here. Jaime is a good character, and the writers have added some form of cruelty here that was really not needed. They've done this on other occasions, too, and I do not like it.
I don't think Jaime is not cruel though … I mean he wouldn't go around raping randomers, but it's not a randomer, it's his sister. And the Lannister siblings do kind of hate each other.
I don't think Jaime is not cruel though … I mean he wouldn't go around raping randomers, but it's not a randomer, it's his sister. And the Lannister siblings do kind of hate each other.
Those two don't. They've always been there for each other and taken comfort in each other, which makes the changing of this scene so terrible. Why do they see reason to add sexual cruelty to the content, when it's portrayed as always consensual in the books? This is stupid and just shows that the show's writers like to show "bad things" for the sake of it, and what better way than to show women as victims?
Check out this article: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/game-of-thrones-rape EDIT:
this article shows it better, and has some lines from the scene in the books in it: http://www.thewire.com/entertainment/2014/04/footnotes-of-ice-and-fire-the-backstory-on-breaker-of-chains/360986/
You can clearly see that it is not a rape scene. It just bothers me, maybe more than it should, but for me this is a MAJOR change to a character's motivations and adds some even worse sexual cruelty to his already twisted character that really was not needed. It's a poor choice by the editors and producers.
A pretty good episode, but like everyone else, I have issues with the changing of the tone of the scene with Jaime and Cersei.
It doesn't make much sense to take the guy with the redemption story arc, when people are really coming around to him, and have him rape the female character who everybody hates, and will continue to hate.
It just puts an unnecessary blotch on Jaime's leaf turning, for no good reason whatsoever.
Yeah, would've been better. Her reason for not sending Grey Worm should count for Daario as well…
I was really, really unhappy that they turned the sex scene into a form of rape. In the book, Cersei doesn't refuse him like she does here. Jaime is a good character, and the writers have added some form of cruelty here that was really not needed. They've done this on other occasions, too, and I do not like it.
Great! Tell us more about the difference of the HBO and the book, I'm really interested and will always look out for it. I didn't read all the books, I always get sleepy, too many characters, too many names and somehow I got lost reading it. So yea. Haha
I think this episode just clearly showed that yes even though the hound and jaime were kinda doing good things, they are still not good people. Jaime still pushed a kid out a window afterall. It's game of thrones, no one is really all good or all bad. And people will do bad things from time to time even if they are on a redemption course.
It would have been better if Jamie just didn't show up in these past episodes, but up till now, what were his and Briene's scenes that couldn't be done after? The hand fitting, the sword scene, him and tyrion bonding, Joffrey making fun of him and the tradition of the book, his father disowing him, his small weeding contribution, her apologizing to Margerie, and them both talking about Sansa.
That's it. Actually that's a lot, why did they feel the need to move around so much shit for this scene to work?
It would have been better if Jamie just didn't show up in these past episodes, but up till now, what were his and Briene's scenes that couldn't be done after? The hand fitting, the sword scene, him and tyrion bonding, Joffrey making fun of him and the tradition of the book, his father disowing him, his small weeding contribution, her apologizing to Margerie, and them both talking about Sansa.
That's it. Actually that's a lot, why did they feel the need to move around so much shit for this scene to work?
I still don't get it either why does the HBO writers inserted Jaime way too early in the scenes. He's supposed to arrived after Joffrey is dead
Great! Tell us more about the difference of the HBO and the book, I'm really interested and will always look out for it. I didn't read all the books, I always get sleepy, too many characters, too many names and somehow I got lost reading it. So yea. Haha
I actually only picked up the books after Joffrey's death because I HAD to know who and why right away so I can't really say much about what was changed before… However, I read an article that talked about the addition of certain things Joffrey did. In the books, he's still mad and cruel, but he's 13 years old. That kind of gets forgotten in the TV show. And his death is therefore kind of more twisted, I'd say - he's done terrible things, but he was not responsible for Robb's murder at his wedding, and he was not the one that sent poisoners after Daenarys. Also, they don't have the scene where he is ordering the two prostitutes to whip themselves in the books, and he doesn't do target practice with them either. The show creators somehow felt it was necessary to add this so we'd hate the character even more... But he's 13!! ...
I think this episode just clearly showed that yes even though the hound and jaime were kinda doing good things, they are still not good people. Jaime still pushed a kid out a window afterall. It's game of thrones, no one is really all good or all bad. And people will do bad things from time to time even if they are on a redemption course.
I understand that we're supposed to know this, and it makes sense - of course they're not "good" people, but at least in Jaime's case, he has his own code of honour. He IS a proper knight, after all. He DOES love his sister, twisted as it may be - he wouldn't RAPE her the way they showed it here. He forced himself on her a bit, yes, but in the books she gave in and her refusal at first was only because she was scared of getting caught - she does love and want him the same way he does her, after all, and the last episode completely missed the mark on that one.
He did shove Bran off the tower, and he's done some other bad things, sure, but they all follow some rational reasoning, when something more important is at stake for him, or Cersei. They really love each other. She actually tells him that she would want nothing more than to actually marry him, like the Targaryans do all the time, but it's impossible since then her children and family would lose all rights to the throne…
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I still don't get it either why does the HBO writers inserted Jaime way too early in the scenes. He's supposed to arrived after Joffrey is dead
Probably only to have more screen presence as an actor, and so they don't have to show those scenes of him talking to his father and being disowned later, when they have so much more that needs to be told…
I actually only picked up the books after Joffrey's death because I HAD to know who and why right away so I can't really say much about what was changed before… However, I read an article that talked about the addition of certain things Joffrey did. In the books, he's still mad and cruel, but he's 13 years old. That kind of gets forgotten in the TV show. And his death is therefore kind of more twisted, I'd say - he's done terrible things, but he was not responsible for Robb's murder at his wedding, and he was not the one that sent poisoners after Daenarys. Also, they don't have the scene where he is ordering the two prostitutes to whip themselves in the books, and he doesn't do target practice with them either. The show creators somehow felt it was necessary to add this so we'd hate the character even more... But he's 13!! ...
Probably only to have more screen presence as an actor, and so they don't have to show those scenes of him talking to his father and being disowned later, when they have so much more that needs to be told…
I see, thanks for adding more differences from the book and HBO's. Will check out this thread for more thanks Juvar!
So the writers well did a good job for establishing Jaime's fate in King's Landing. But Jaime coming in later in King's Landing only to find out that Tyrion, his best friend/bro is being set for trial is what I've been anticipating.
I actually only picked up the books after Joffrey's death because I HAD to know who and why right away so I can't really say much about what was changed before… However, I read an article that talked about the addition of certain things Joffrey did. In the books, he's still mad and cruel, but he's 13 years old. That kind of gets forgotten in the TV show. And his death is therefore kind of more twisted, I'd say - he's done terrible things, but he was not responsible for Robb's murder at his wedding, and he was not the one that sent poisoners after Daenarys. Also, they don't have the scene where he is ordering the two prostitutes to whip themselves in the books, and he doesn't do target practice with them either. The show creators somehow felt it was necessary to add this so we'd hate the character even more... But he's 13!! ...
Although that specific thing doesn't happen, Joffrey's general cruelty and sadism are shown or referred to plenty of times. He's basically just as twisted in the books as in the TV series, I would say. Also, he is actually older in the TV series, like most characters.
I understand that we're supposed to know this, and it makes sense - of course they're not "good" people, but at least in Jaime's case, he has his own code of honour. He IS a proper knight, after all. He DOES love his sister, twisted as it may be - he wouldn't RAPE her the way they showed it here. He forced himself on her a bit, yes, but in the books she gave in and her refusal at first was only because she was scared of getting caught - she does love and want him the same way he does her, after all, and the last episode completely missed the mark on that one.
He did shove Bran off the tower, and he's done some other bad things, sure, but they all follow some rational reasoning, when something more important is at stake for him, or Cersei. They really love each other. She actually tells him that she would want nothing more than to actually marry him, like the Targaryans do all the time, but it's impossible since then her children and family would lose all rights to the throne…
Jaime's also impulsive and reckless. I don't really think the scene was the right choice, but I can see it making a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things if he regrets it afterwards …
They didn't want to show Joffrey killing kittens in the show.
Killing prostitutes is A.O.K though.
It's like that episode from Criminal Minds, that they get pretty explicit with the dead bodies, of any age and gender, but don't dare to show a dead puppy.
He didn't realize? That's fucking terryfing.
"So yeah, i was making go into this bus and they would go someplace. The busses came back empty and sometimes smeared with blood. Who would have thought i was partaking genocide? "
uh…is that too much? If it is maybe this post should be deleted. I know there's a line. It's just that i start running whenever i see it :(
Comment in that link: "Someone needs to get laid."
HOLY SHET.
HOLY.
SHET.[[URL="http://s56.photobucket.com/user/prismal/media/octopusreaction3.jpg.html"]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/prismal/octopusreaction3.jpg
Just….why? how can someone take away that from the article?
Yeah. Exactly. It's horrifying. Those kind of reactions make me want to take several steps back from the fandom. B&W really need to consider what it means when they get that response.
@Print:
Yeah. Exactly. It's horrifying. Those kind of reactions make me want to take several steps back from the fandom. B&W really need to consider what it means when they get that response.
From my life experiences (not that many tho) i've reckon that one can't just take step backs or everything will stay the same. Maybe it's best to just run into the guys and fuckin sock in the face with a knee to know they are being fucking stupid? Uh, still i don't know. I'm just a casual viewer. I keep forgetting the name of Lord Friend Zone and Karl Drago, real state seller.
It's easier to draw battle lines when you're not so personally affected, though.
Yeah, you're right in that.
Jaime's also impulsive and reckless. I don't really think the scene was the right choice, but I can see it making a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things if he regrets it afterwards …
if you think using rape is an okay way to show character development, you are the worst kind of person
Fuck the director for thinking this was okay
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I could have handled creepy sex by a dead body but this shit was fucked up
So in the book it's not a rape…but it's still incest near Jame and Cersei's dead child, right? So Jame is a weird and horrible guy in the book as well, right?
@taBills:
if you think using rape is an okay way to show character development, you are the worst kind of person
Why is that not okay? (in general, not in this specific instance)
The biggest problem (the others are pretty horrible too, don't think they're not) is not recognizing rape. And we're not talking about some creepy frat dude of some stupid internet annonyomous user. This is a guy in charge for things that are watched by millions and influence a lot of people…and he can't fucking recognize rape. That means this is where we are as a society. How the fuck can we prosecute and help prevent one of the worst crimes if people can't recognize it?!?! It's wrong, so fucking wrong in so many levels and everyone must know it :S
So in the book it's not a rape…but it's still incest near Jame and Cersei's dead child, right? So Jame is a weird and horrible guy in the book as well, right?
Yeah but he's horrible in the sense that he loves in a fucked up way, and rape isn't love.
His response is not to stop loving her, not to stop believing that he is victim to the gods. Instead, Jaime rapes his sister, passing that sense of unendurable pain on to her. He must know that this is the worst possible way that he could hurt her. Jaime knew that Robert raped Cersei, and in the novels, he wanted to kill Robert for it. Not only does raping Cersei remind his sister of her repeated, humiliating violation, Jaime is poisoning their own relationship, the thing that had been Cersei’s antidote to the miseries of her marriage. It is an exceptionally cruel thing for Jaime to do. - Alyssa Rosenberg, Washington Post.
So in the book it's not a rape…but it's still incest near Jame and Cersei's dead child, right? So Jame is a weird and horrible guy in the book as well, right?
Incest and rape is really completely different mate, especially in this instance, since in the GoT universe this was kind of common between noble houses. It's weird and disgusting from our perspective, not from theirs in the same way. Rape, however, is rape. And there shouldn't be any in this scene, it's just false and wrong. Gotta mirror taBill's view and say fuck the directors for changing such a major thing about Jaime.
Incest and rape is really completely different mate, especially in this instance, since in the GoT universe this was kind of common between noble houses. It's weird and disgusting from our perspective, not from theirs in the same way. Rape, however, is rape. And there shouldn't be any in this scene, it's just false and wrong. Gotta mirror taBill's view and say fuck the directors for changing such a major thing about Jaime.
But Jaime is still the bastard who refused to save Sansa and Aria as promised only because her mother was dead. Right?
I mean, could the direction of the episode change the fact that Jaime is curently a bad guy with no sense of honor.
But Jaime is still the bastard who refused to save Sansa and Aria as promised only because her mother was dead. Right?
I mean, could the direction of the episode change the fact that Jaime is curently a bad guy with no sense of honor.
just because you're a bad guy doesn't mean you're a rapist especially when you're shown to frown upon it in the previous season :/
This show has a lot of bad guys but most of the morally ambiguous ones all draw the line somewhere.
But Jaime is still the bastard who refused to save Sansa and Aria as promised only because her mother was dead. Right?
I mean, could the direction of the episode change the fact that Jaime is curently a bad guy with no sense of honor.
Seriously?
Jaime is not a "good guy" nor a "bad guy" - most characters in this series aren't. They all have their little faults and twists, some more, some less. But pretty much all of them are understandable, to some extent, and most of them have a certain rationality behind their actions, as cruel as they might seem at times. Jaime couldn't have saved the Stark sisters if he had wanted to because Arya is long gone, and technically when he arrives in King's Landing in the books, Sansa has disappeared as well.
Jaime is twisted, but he's a knight with his own honour. He's NOT a "bad guy", nor is he "good". Incestrous love might seem wrong, but it's got nothing to do with being either good or bad. They love each other. However, raping her (as in the series, as NOT in the book) is not love. Which is why, yes, this changes a lot about we perceive Jaime as a character, and it's all wrong.
@taBills:
just because you're a bad guy doesn't mean you're a rapist especially when you're shown to frown upon it in the previous season :/
This show has a lot of bad guys but most of the morally ambiguous ones all draw the line somewhere.
I think the only ambigous thing is the definition of a "rape". I never witnessed a rape (thank god), but I am sure it's way more violent than the scene we saw. We can agree that GoT is a serie where violence and sex isn't a taboo. Yet the scene was almost "soft". No sex nor boobs exposed and Cersei gave up after less than a minute. Her only opposition was to push Jaime and to say:"it's not right". Both character are a mess in this scene, regardless from this scene being a rape. I don't know how it's written in the book, but if the autor succeeded to make this scene romantic and Jaime look like a gentleman, he deserves a price.
Seriously?
Jaime is not a "good guy" nor a "bad guy" - most characters in this series aren't. They all have their little faults and twists, some more, some less. But pretty much all of them are understandable, to some extent, and most of them have a certain rationality behind their actions, as cruel as they might seem at times. Jaime couldn't have saved the Stark sisters if he had wanted to because Arya is long gone, and technically when he arrives in King's Landing in the books, Sansa has disappeared as well.
Jaime is twisted, but he's a knight with his own honour. He's NOT a "bad guy", nor is he "good". Incestrous love might seem wrong, but it's got nothing to do with being either good or bad. They love each other. However, raping her (as in the series, as NOT in the book) is not love. Which is why, yes, this changes a lot about we perceive Jaime as a character, and it's all wrong.
Well I don't read the books. Obviously I don't really get the extent of damages. For me it wasn't out of character.
The only qualities I can think of concerning Jaime: he is handsome, he prefers duel than assassination and he isn't a complete d*ck to Tyrion. I don't need a lesson about how "the world isn't all black and white". It's just that curently, I have no esteem for a character who constantly disappointed me. And I wasn't even surprised by this scene.
Jaimie took down the mad king rather than letting him do untold horrors to the land. He's fiercely loyal to those he cares about. And after his time with Brienne he suffers and changes quite a bit for the better.
He's not evil, just selfish and sheltered within his own world view.
I think the only ambigous thing is the definition of a "rape". I never witnessed a rape (thank god), but I am sure it's way more violent than the scene we saw. We can agree that GoT is a serie where violence and sex isn't a taboo. Yet the scene was almost "soft". No sex nor boobs exposed and Cersei gave up after less than a minute. Her only opposition was to push Jaime and to say:"it's not right". Both character are a mess in this scene, regardless from this scene being a rape. I don't know how it's written in the book, but if the autor succeeded to make this scene romantic and Jaime look like a gentleman, he deserves a price
first you say it's in Jaimie's nature to rape, then you say it wasn't actually a rape, then you say it was a rape but just 'soft' rape because we didnt see titties
You have no idea what you're talking about and you can go fuck yourself too
@taBills:
first you say it's in Jaimie's nature to rape, then you say it wasn't actually a rape, then you say it was a rape but just 'soft' rape because we didnt see titties
You have no idea what you're talking about and you can go fuck yourself too
Wow! That's not nice, like not at all!
You guys are reading the book, I don't. Maybe the scene is completely wrong considering some future exposition that has yet to happen in the tv serie. But from my point of view, it doesn't go against anything we've seen in the past.
And if I wasn't clear, no I don't think it was a rape. As long as I know there wasn't a script of the episode published on the net with a didascalie saying: "Jaime rapes Cersei". I am free to believe it wasn't one.
So in the book it's not a rape…but it's still incest near Jame and Cersei's dead child, right? So Jame is a weird and horrible guy in the book as well, right?
Not that bad. It's grosser (Cersei in her days, Jamie without having bathed in 2 months), it's awkward, I won't touch the incest, as to them it doesn't matter. But it's the point that these lovers finaly find eachother after all the crap that they have been through. Besides, funerals are weird moments in life, you fell like crap and would try tons of stupid things to feel better.
Talking about the book scene. In the series scene Cersei kind of gave up defending and was exchanging between trying to separate themselves, and caresing him, but a "yes take me" or a "let's do this quickly" or just an explicit kiss by her.
Asha spoilers:
! I guess that the people's reaction will mean that they won't show her scene of roleplaying later.
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But Jaime is still the bastard who refused to save Sansa and Aria as promised only because her mother was dead. Right?
I mean, could the direction of the episode change the fact that Jaime is curently a bad guy with no sense of honor.
Save them to who exactly? their non brother Jon Snow? Their dead castle? Their prissioner uncle? Their crazy aunt?
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You aren't getting the issue. Even without the book, that scene shows clearly a character who was maturing and becoming a better person impose himself sexualy against his lover against her will, in a tone of hate and spite.
A pretty good episode, but like everyone else, I have issues with the changing of the tone of the scene with Jaime and Cersei.
It doesn't make much sense to take the guy with the redemption story arc, when people are really coming around to him, and have him rape the female character who everybody hates, and will continue to hate.
It just puts an unnecessary blotch on Jaime's leaf turning, for no good reason whatsoever.
Yeah right up until he was attacking her I was mentally rooting for him and hissing at her.
Like "haha she's shit Jaimie, I bet you'll show in this scene that there's a growing gap between you since you're no longer a murderous machavellian psycho like her! You're the good dude now…...you're the......what the fuck???"
If that was seriously unintentional I'm speechless.
They need to re-shoot that scene, or re-edit or something.
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I think this episode just clearly showed that yes even though the hound and jaime were kinda doing good things, they are still not good people. Jaime still pushed a kid out a window afterall. It's game of thrones, no one is really all good or all bad. And people will do bad things from time to time even if they are on a redemption course.
lolllll at even beginning to compare the two things.
The Hound still being a surly misanthropic gray character is totally in character and should have shocked nobody.
Jaimie raping Cersei is completely out of character and as stated WASN"T EVEN INTENTIONAL.
GoT isn't good because characters just randomly do bad shit and are grey lol. These things have to be in character.
Like me not being surprised at Ygritte cold blood murdering a father right in front of his seven year old son. That's a HORRIBLE thing, that's far worse than the Hound robbing someone. But given who she is and the Wildlings way of life there's nothing surprising about it.
The primary problem with the rape scene even beyond it being unintended, was it not making sense.
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But Jaime is still the bastard who refused to save Sansa and Aria as promised only because her mother was dead. Right?
I mean, could the direction of the episode change the fact that Jaime is curently a bad guy with no sense of honor.
No sense of honor? Hello there person who is missing the majorest plot point of the character of Jaimie Lannister!
Also lol, who is he supposed to return them to. There's literally nobody to return them to.
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Wow! That's not nice, like not at all!
You guys are reading the book, I don't. Maybe the scene is completely wrong considering some future exposition that has yet to happen in the tv serie. But from my point of view, it doesn't go against anything we've seen in the past.
And if I wasn't clear, no I don't think it was a rape. As long as I know there wasn't a script of the episode published on the net with a didascalie saying: "Jaime rapes Cersei". I am free to believe it wasn't one.
Your point of view is fucking clueless and genuinely objectively horrible on the rape subject.
Wow! That's not nice, like not at all!
You guys are reading the book, I don't. Maybe the scene is completely wrong considering some future exposition that has yet to happen in the tv serie. But from my point of view, it doesn't go against anything we've seen in the past.
And if I wasn't clear, no I don't think it was a rape. As long as I know there wasn't a script of the episode published on the net with a didascalie saying: "Jaime rapes Cersei". I am free to believe it wasn't one.
so what part of that seemed consensual to you? Or say if you were with a girl and she was saying, no, stop, and fighting you off would you just keep going and think nothing off it.
I don't know Jaimie saw a kid watching him have sex - grabbed the kid who was dangling lifted him as if to save him and threw him to the ground - then went back to sex with his sister.
The dude might have been slightly redeemed when he believed he was captured and at the mercy of others.
His also shown a fairly consistant attitude of selfishness.
I don't think its out of character for him - to him his sister is his - regardless how badly the scene was done - I don't see it being fixed by next episode since these were probably filmed ages ago.
So I rewatch the scene and obviously Cersei doesn't want to do it. And no matter how violent is Jaime or how much she tries to resist him, if she doen't want to be there, it must be considered as a rape. I'm sorry if I shocked someone when I said it wasn't one.
But as a non-reader I still don't know why you guys are so upset and I would like to read this specific part to understand. (No spoiler please)
@maxterdexter:
You aren't getting the issue. Even without the book, that scene shows clearly a character who was maturing and becoming a better person impose himself sexualy against his lover against her will, in a tone of hate and spite.
As you did, I saw Jaime's character maturing and improving during his journey with Brienne. That's why a lot of people consider this scene as out of character or as regression. But I wasn't particularly surprised since Jaime's character has been regressing right after his return to the palace. You are disappointed by Jaime in this episode, I'm not. Simply because I was already disappointed 2 episodes before.
@Monkey:
No sense of honor? Hello there person who is missing the majorest plot point of the character of Jaimie Lannister!
Also lol, who is he supposed to return them to. There's literally nobody to return them to.Your point of view is fucking clueless and genuinely objectively horrible on the rape subject.
The only honorable thing he did (that I remind of) was to challenge Ned Stark to a duel when his soldiers could easily kill him.
About Sansa, let's imagine that there was absolutely no possible way to save her from this place. Did you see Jaime being sorry about her ? The guy do not even think that he has a debt to pay.
@Taggerung:
so what part of that seemed consensual to you? Or say if you were with a girl and she was saying, no, stop, and fighting you off would you just keep going and think nothing off it.
No.
So I rewatch the scene and obviously Cersei doesn't want to do it. And no matter how violent is Jaime or how much she tries to resist him, if she doen't want to be there, it must be considered as a rape. I'm sorry if I shocked someone when I said it wasn't one.
But as a non-reader I still don't know why you guys are so upset and I would like to read this specific part to understand. (No spoiler please)As you did, I saw Jaime's character maturing and improving during his journey with Brienne. That's why a lot of people consider this scene as out of character or as regression. But I wasn't particularly surprised since Jaime's character has been regressing right after his return to the palace. You are disappointed by Jaime in this episode, I'm not. Simply because I was already disappointed 2 episodes before.
The only honorable thing he did (that I remind of) was to challenge Ned Stark to a duel when his soldiers could easily kill him.
About Sansa, let's imagine that there was absolutely no possible way to save her from this place. Did you see Jaime being sorry about her ? The guy do not even think that he has a debt to pay.
No.
The whole point of Jaime as a character is that despite his completely shit reputation, he is actually a honourable guy, he just doesn't show it to many people.
We've mainly been shown this since Season 3, when his redemptive story arc began.
Jaime has already stated that he would have kept his promise to return the Stark girls to their mother but 1) Only 1 Stark girl is present and 2) there's nobody left to return them to.
This whole rape scene is just counter-productive and badly written.
The whole point of Jaime as a character is that despite his completely shit reputation, he is actually a honourable guy, he just doesn't show it to many people.
We've mainly been shown this since Season 3, when his redemptive story arc began.
- Doesn't kill Ned in the streets of King's Landing.
- Tricks Locke into not raping Brienne.
- Reveals to Brienne how he saved the entire population of King's Landing.
- Goes back and saves Brienne from the bear.
- Refuses to step down as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, despite Tywin's insistence.
- Refuses to kill Tyrion in cold blood.
Jaime has already stated that he would have kept his promise to return the Stark girls to their mother but 1) Only 1 Stark girl is present and 2) there's nobody left to return them to.
This whole rape scene is just counter-productive and badly written.
And ACTUALLY, none of the 2 Stark girls is present. The rewrite here was stupid for this matter, and the rape scene was completely inexcusable. As you said before, even forgetting about the books for a second, this is just not right at all and Jaime is NOT the kind of person to rape anyone, much less his beloved sister. Whoever had this idea needs to apologise.
And ACTUALLY, none of the 2 Stark girls is present. The rewrite here was stupid for this matter, and the rape scene was completely inexcusable. As you said before, even forgetting about the books for a second, this is just not right at all and Jaime is NOT the kind of person to rape anyone, much less his beloved sister. Whoever had this idea needs to apologise.
Well since they rewrote it slightly and Jaime arrived back before Joffrey's death, Sansa was still there to be sent back to any member of her family that still lived.
Terrible call by Weiss and Benioff to rewrite this scene.
Well since they rewrote it slightly and Jaime arrived back before Joffrey's death, Sansa was still there to be sent back to any member of her family that still lived.
Terrible call by Weiss and Benioff to rewrite this scene.
Exactly. It skewes up all the events and especially the moments between Jaime and Cersei, it just doesn't fit. Add in the rape scene and you make out Jaime to be a much more terrible character than he is supposed to be at this point.
! actual book spoilers here, don't open.
! >! Hell, he saves Tyrion from his death sentence afterwards, and he likes Cersei MUCH more than Tyrion. He WOULD NOT harm his own blood, much less Cersei. It's WRONG. He would never rape anyone!
Exactly. It skewes up all the events and especially the moments between Jaime and Cersei, it just doesn't fit. Add in the rape scene and you make out Jaime to be a much more terrible character than he is supposed to be at this point.
! actual book spoilers here, don't open.
! >! Hell, he saves Tyrion from his death sentence afterwards, and he likes Cersei MUCH more than Tyrion. He WOULD NOT harm his own blood, much less Cersei. It's WRONG. He would never rape anyone!
! book spoilers
! He's supposed to love Tyrion just as much as Cersei, he's pretty much the only Lannister who actually treats Tyrion with any kind of love and respect, hence why he goes out of his way to save his life.
! Your point about harming his own blood still stands though.
Why is that not okay? (in general, not in this specific instance)
http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2014/04/23/rape-in-fiction-or-oh-game-of-thrones-really/
The only honorable thing he did (that I remind of) was to challenge Ned Stark to a duel when his soldiers could easily kill him.
Oh ok, guess we're going to just ignore that he saved the entire population of probably the biggest city in the continent by killing the Mad King and his pyromancer.
An act that even though it's one of the most heroic things in the series…he got treated like shit for and still gets treated like shit for.
And it's ALMOST like his sarcastic asshole personality where he stops giving a shit about honor is BECAUSE he did an amazing heroic feat and even had the Mad King's enemies treating him like scum. All because of antiquated silly ideas about honor that somehow upholds serving a psychopathic monster who was going to burn millions alive unquestionably.
If Game of Thrones were updated to modern times Jaimie would be unquestionably seen as a brave hero. But since it's feudal 1200's NotEurope "HE BROKED DA OATH :blink:??"
Pft. He saved millions of lives before the narrative starts. That doesn't count for anything!
And Arya started as an innocent goodguy, so the hundreds of deaths she's caused, many by her own hand, aren't bad!
If the narrative started with Arya in the place she's in by book 5, (trying to not give details in this thread) she'd be unlikeable and not given any sympathy or be liked by anyone. And if Joffrey wasn't a total monster and the narratives started from Cersei's POV sooner instead of Caitlin's, she might be more sympathic?
POV and narrative bias mostly.
@Monkey:
Oh ok, guess we're going to just ignore that he saved the entire population of probably the biggest city in the continent by killing the Mad King and his pyromancer.
An act that even though it's one of the most heroic things in the series…he got treated like shit for and still gets treated like shit for.
And it's ALMOST like his sarcastic asshole personality where he stops giving a shit about honor is BECAUSE he did an amazing heroic feat and even had the Mad King's enemies treating him like scum...is BECAUSE everyone treats him like scum. All because of antiquated silly ideas about honor that somehow upholds serving a psychopathic monster who was going to burn millions alive unquestionably.If Game of Thrones were updated to modern times Jaimie would be unquestionably seen as a brave hero. But since it's feudal 1200's NotEurope "HE BROKED DA OATH :blink:??"
LoL it was actualy one of the things I have forgotten. The fact that it wasn't on screen didn't helped me. He is obviously a hero regardless from your allegiance. I'm not going to deny it. But in the last 3 episodes, he was nonetheless (IMO) one of the worst guy ever. And I think it's sad considering how much I liked him when he was with Brienne.