Yo. This show might be the greatest anime I have ever watched. It was so FREAKING epic. I'm gonna change my avatar to something Code Geass related.
DAMN
For anyone that doesn't like the series or the second season, why is that so?
Yo. This show might be the greatest anime I have ever watched. It was so FREAKING epic. I'm gonna change my avatar to something Code Geass related.
DAMN
For anyone that doesn't like the series or the second season, why is that so?
Please change your avatar to this:
!
lol
15 cahractacharcters
For anyone that doesn't like the series or the second season, why is that so?
Because it's a tonally inconsistent melodrama that just comes off as a manufactured product to sell to as many people as possible.
Also, we already have a Code Geass thread that has since been long forgotten.
Because it's a tonally inconsistent melodrama that just comes off as a manufactured product to sell to as many people as possible.
Also, we already have a Code Geass thread that has since been long forgotten.
How though. The only major issue I see is Jeremiah's reasoning for joining Lelouch.)
And I thought I was late on the draw today.
…....................
How though. The only major issue I see is Jeremiah's reasoning for joining Lelouch.)
I really probably shouldn't, but….
! Well, as far as tone goes, let's start by establishing exactly what Code Geass supposedly is (that is, what kind of story it is). Apparently it's a Gundam-inspired battle-mech war drama. And it's actually fairly intense, what with its blatant show of racism, subjugation, and genocide.
! So who's bright idea was it to have CLAMP do the design for the show? I'm sorry, but CLAMP's art style is very ill-suited for this kind of story. CLAMP's characters are scrawny, bright-eyed, have rainbow varieties of hair, and almost look alien in how idyllic and cutesy they look. CLAMP's style is more suited for fantasy and light-hearted slice-of-life stories, which - Surprise! - is generally what they do.
! Not to mention all that Ashford nonsense is completely out-of-place. In one episode, you have the entire school running around in what look like butt hats (of course, that episode was pretty much a mockery of the show itself) and then in the next episode you have one of those students brutally murdered in a really heart-wrenching scene.
! To me it just seems like they were putting in as much stuff as they could to appeal to as many people as possible, even if it made no sense. "Hey, people like CLAMP, so let's get CLAMP to do the design!" "Hey, let's put in some goofy high school antics to appeal to people who like that!" "Hey, let's put in some cool mech battle for people who like that!" "Oh! And let's not forget the over-the-top fanservice!"
! Also, while obviously I can't prove it, the show really did seem to take more than few cues from Death Note (again, another thing that was popular at the time that Sunrise was probably cashing in on).
! Now, story and character-wise, I'll admit that the first season is actually pretty decent. The second season, however, was just a train wreck from beginning to end.
! I mean, the season with basically a retread of the first few episodes of the first season to help initiate the audience (something about a schedule change; whatever). Then we got the China arc, which proved to be totally pointless and then throughout the whole rest season it just becomes this weird series of random occurrences, plot cul-de-sacs, and characters behaving illogically, just for the sake of the characters doing the next thing the writers want them to do.
! To name a few examples:
! -The Black Knights immediately rejoining Zero after he had abandoned them for a year made no sense
-Just like the China arc from which he sprung, Xing-ke himself was totally pointless and disappeared from the story after that arc was completed.
-What was the point of Gino and Anya joining Ashford? That went nowhere.
-The way in which Shirley regained her memories was random and made no sense.
-What even was the point of killing off Shirley? Lelouch subsequently blaming and razing the Geass compound (another plot cul-de-sac) made no sense. After that he totally forgets about it and doesn't even follow through on his plan to kill Rolo.
-C.C. losing her memories was another random occurrence that only lasted as long as the writers needed it to.
-The Black Knights betrayal of Zero was moronic and made no sense.
-Charles's revelation of his instrumentality plan or whatever was totally idiotic and completely contradicted his previous actions.
! Oh yeah, and Lelouch tricking Schneizel by having him talk to a 10-minute long video of myself is just a big middle finger to the audience.
! There's a lot more I could say about the series, but I think I've made my point. Oh, but one last thing I'll say is that Code Geass was really weird about who it decided to kill off and let live.
! -Okay, so a good deal of the bad guys die, that's a given, but I really question the wisdom of letting Schneizel live, even with him being mind-wiped
-While non-combatant characters like Euphemia and Shirley die, pretty much all of the good guy soldiers (who we care about) live. Even Xing-ke who was shown to be terminally ill made it out.
-Bringing Nunnally and Sayoko back to life made no sense. Escape pod my ass.
-Why the hell did they bring some nothing character like Guilford back to life?
-They at least had the decency to kill off Rolo, but I don't buy the sympathetic nature of his death for a minute. At that point his character was pretty much totally irredeemable.
Funny- I read all of the above post and I'd still rate CG 10/10.
I thought the CG thread was bumped a couple weeks ago due to the recent spin-off anime that's been coming out. Meh.
But CG did have it's faults,but I'd still rate it as one of my overall favorite animes.
I actually sort of agree with Nobodyman. When I originally watched Code Geass, I loved the first half, but was very disappointed with the second, and I had little clue why people seemed to love the it. Nobodyman summed it up very well.
But, I don't hate CGR2, I think it had great things, like the very end, the deaths, the focus on quite a few minor characters, and the like. It just never compared to R1 for me.
With Nobodyman, eh, I felt as if you let a little bit too much of personal preference show in your post. I originally disliked the artstyle in general and the design for Lelouch, but I decided, so what, Art is subjective, that shouldn't make the show bad. So in terms of the art and fanservice with this type of show, eh, I don't have that much of a problem. Sure, was it shoehorned in sometimes? Yeah. Was it as bad as other shows where there was no reason? Not that much.
It's like as if you wanted to be the author of the show itself, if that makes any sense, based on your criticisms. Now mind me, I haven't taken any sort of course on what makes good literature, but hey, events happen in real life that break of the mood of things. So the episode of them running around wasn't bad IMO.
In terms of Lelouch's pre-recorded messages/videos, the one with Kallen was legit, though I do agree on the one with Schneizel. The China arc, along with Xingke wasn't bad either. I mean, did the pay a little more attention to it than they should of? Yeah, to an extent. But it wasn't useless. Britannia was trying to get the Chinese federation to join them. Zero had to get involved because Brittannia doing that would make it that much harder for the Black Knights to fight against 3/4 of the world.
With Nobodyman, eh, I felt as if you let a little bit too much of personal preference show in your post.
Hold that thought.
I originally disliked the artstyle in general and the design for Lelouch, but I decided, so what, Art is subjective, that shouldn't make the show bad.
Then, by your logic, aren't we all showing our "personal preference" whenever we critique something?
Yes, it's true that art is subjective, but it's also true that images and designs tend to make us feel a certain way. People don't laugh when looking at Edvard Munch's Scream, and people aren't filled with horror when they look at Edward Hopper's Nighthawks.
What if Code Geass had Doraemon style characters? Would that still just be another excusable case of art being subjective?
So in terms of the art and fanservice with this type of show, eh, I don't have that much of a problem. Sure, was it shoehorned in sometimes? Yeah. Was it as bad as other shows where there was no reason? Not that much.
"Well, this was bad, but it wasn't as bad as this!" really isn't a valid excuse.
It's like as if you wanted to be the author of the show itself, if that makes any sense, based on your criticisms.
Funny. This is the 2nd time I've heard someone use this defense in a week on two different series. And, like the first time, it's not true. What about my argument indicates that I want to write for the show? I've only pointed out things that I think don't work: the art style, the inconsistent tone, the plot holes, etc.
Now mind me, I haven't taken any sort of course on what makes good literature, but hey, events happen in real life that break of the mood of things. So the episode of them running around wasn't bad IMO.
Just because something is true to life doesn't mean it should be inserted into the story. Should a story show a person going to the bathroom or sleeping for 8 hours just because?
In terms of Lelouch's pre-recorded messages/videos, the one with Kallen was legit, though I do agree on the one with Schneizel.
Kallen? I thought he only did that with Mao and Schneizel?
The China arc, along with Xingke wasn't bad either. I mean, did the pay a little more attention to it than they should of? Yeah, to an extent. But it wasn't useless. Britannia was trying to get the Chinese federation to join them. Zero had to get involved because Brittannia doing that would make it that much harder for the Black Knights to fight against 3/4 of the world.
But what point did it serve in the long run? See, the problem with the China arc is that it was totally inconsequential to the overall resolution of the story. If that's all it was about was preventing Britannia from gaining a foothold in some country that happened to be really strong, then it may as well have been any country. And it could've been done in one or two episodes. It'd be one thing if China or Xing-ke played some major role later on, but as I said, they were quickly forgotten. Ultimately, it's just filler.
I find Code Geass to be quite enjoyable as long as you don't think about it too much. There are quite a few moments where it felt the writers wrote themselves into a corner and had to bullshit themselves out of it.
Nobodyman is right though, season 2 was garbage.
Also, to clarify, I don't think Code Geass is a terrible series. The first season I'm fine with for the most part and think it ranges from decent to good. Season 2, however, was totally ridiculous, with only a few fairly cool to tide it over.
Overall, between the two seasons, I think the show is decent.
Yo. This show might be the greatest anime I have ever watched.
You should watch more anime.
The only memorable things about it were Table-kun and Wakamoto's voice acting.
You should watch more anime.
The only memorable things about it were Table-kun and Wakamoto's voice acting.
His voice acting is memorable in every anime he does. So just Table-kun.
You should watch more anime.
The only memorable things about it were Table-kun and Wakamoto's voice acting.
What should I watch then.
What should I watch then.
We have a large recommendation thread that you should check out if you haven't already. I am generally wary of recommending stuff to other people without knowing more about their tastes.
P.S. The series that I enjoyed watching the most this year was about tea ceremonies in the Sengoku period.
CG1 was good.
CG2 was meh, then confusing, then ok.
My posts are in the bold.
"Hold that thought.
Then, by your logic, aren't we all showing our "personal preference" whenever we critique something?
Yes, it's true that art is subjective, but it's also true that images and designs tend to make us feel a certain way. People don't laugh when looking at Edvard Munch's Scream, and people aren't filled with horror when they look at Edward Hopper's Nighthawks.
What if Code Geass had Doraemon style characters? Would that still just be another excusable case of art being subjective?"
Actually, you proved the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that personal preference shouldn't be used when critiquing a show. Of course, there are limits, which is why I also understand and agree to an extent to what you're saying. It's just one of those things where, for a plot intensive show, art style as a criticism should probably be lower on the list.
"Well, this was bad, but it wasn't as bad as this!" really isn't a valid excuse."
I said that because you were kind of nitpicking and making a minor thing bigger than it should have been (a little bit).
"Funny. This is the 2nd time I've heard someone use this defense in a week on two different series. And, like the first time, it's not true. What about my argument indicates that I want to write for the show? I've only pointed out things that I think don't work: the art style, the inconsistent tone, the plot holes, etc."
I know I may be beating a dead horse and might be leading to a very moot point, but, yeah, personal preference. A majority of your issues seem to be preference rather than actually true plot points, like bad plot holes or blatant asspulls.
Just because something is true to life doesn't mean it should be inserted into the story. Should a story show a person going to the bathroom or sleeping for 8 hours just because?
When you say it like that, it makes me question "What is a story", you know? Must you include only major events? The minor ones add extra depth to the experience and extra insight as to how the environment is in the show.
Kallen? I thought he only did that with Mao and Schneizel?
Episode 3 of Code Geass season 1. He used recorded a message that was sent to Kallen. I was saying how that one was good, but the one with Schneizel was a little BS to an extent.
"But what point did it serve in the long run? See, the problem with the China arc is that it was totally inconsequential to the overall resolution of the story. If that's all it was about was preventing Britannia from gaining a foothold in some country that happened to be really strong, then it may as well have been any country. And it could've been done in one or two episodes. It'd be one thing if China or Xing-ke played some major role later on, but as I said, they were quickly forgotten. Ultimately, it's just filler."
Again, you wanna flesh out the world. Not showing anything just because it might become irrelevant in the long run isn't. I know what you mean though. I don't know if you read Fairy Tail or not, but an example of you're saying is when Lisanna is back to life in Edolas in an emotional scene, just to be irrelevant. Even then, that's more of a problem with how the mangaka handles the characters in that show.
Actually, you proved the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that personal preference shouldn't be used when critiquing a show. Of course, there are limits, which is why I also understand and agree to an extent to what you're saying. It's just one of those things where, for a plot intensive show, art style as a criticism should probably be lower on the list.
Even if it's lower on the list, it's still something to make note of. Art should complement the premise. How would you feel if something like Berserk were drawn with CLAMP's art style? Or Card Captor Sakura drawn Hokuto no Ken brutality style? The art doesn't really work well with the tone of the story.
I mean, CLAMP was literally brought in to make designs just to appeal to as many people as possible, as Lelouch was designed to be a "cool" protagonist, which is what Nobodyman is saying. The show as a whole is just meshing a lot of things together to appeal to as many demographics as possible, but a lot of the stuff they don't throw in don't work well with other stuff.
I know I may be beating a dead horse and might be leading to a very moot point, but, yeah, personal preference. A majority of your issues seem to be preference rather than actually true plot points, like bad plot holes or blatant asspulls.
If that were the case, how would you rate something "objectively?" In fact let's reverse this idea and say how you rate something as extremely good without showing your "personal preference?" Of course Nobodyman's showing his personal preference! But what he tends to show is more a lot of stuff that makes a story work well within its own structure.
And really, a story doesn't need plot holes or asspulls in order to be poorly written. A lot of people like to look for plot holes and asspulls as the sole qualifier for terrible writing, but they tend to overlook things like the tone and how everything meshes together as a whole.
> When you say it like that, it makes me question "What is a story", you know? Must you include only major events? The minor ones add extra depth to the experience and extra insight as to how the environment is in the show Of course, you can always show momentary lulls in a story to add depth, but when you juxtapose a scene of high school hijinx next to an episode of tragedy the show is just jarring in its momentum.
If you want an action story with robots and drama, that's fine. After all, Sunrise is famous for the Gundam series. If you want a lot of slice of life vignettes or high school stories, that's cool, too. But shoving both at the same time weakens both.
And, yes, small reprieves can give some insight into characters, but when it doesn't fit with the rest of the momentum of the show, it is nonsense. I don't think Nobodyman necessarily objects to small breathers in a story. In fact, a pause can and is used to build. The problem lies more in the fact that episodes aren't strung together very well. When you go from one extreme to the other in a matter of moments, it falls completely out of place.
> Again, you wanna flesh out the world. Not showing anything just because it might become irrelevant in the long run isn't. I know what you mean though. I don't know if you read Fairy Tail or not, but an example of you're saying is when Lisanna is back to life in Edolas in an emotional scene, just to be irrelevant. Even then, that's more of a problem with how the mangaka handles the characters in that show. So what separates this from Lisanna, then? Xing-Ke and Lisanna are ultimately in the same situation as far as plot goes. They're basically pushed to the side.
Stories that build the world well are actually much tighter in writing than they may appear. It gives the audience a better window into the world, yes, but when exploring the world, there may be other points that contribute to the grand scheme of things. Developing character, delving deeper into the tone and themes of the work, etc. And this works within the scope of the whole story as well. But when you just insert an arc and then have it play no role later on in the story, what was the point? Did you introduce an important character that plays a big role later on? Does China's alliance with the Black Knights help to decide any of the following vital conflicts? And did we really explore more of the world by going to China?
And there's a difference between fleshing the world and padding. Fleshing out the world actually does have some relevance to the structure of the story because it develops and gives insight to the characters or the world they live in instead of just placing the characters in some place they haven't been before and having a fight that doesn't particularly contribute to the overarching goal. Admitting its irrelevance is saying that it doesn't fall anywhere within the story. Do you really know more about China from that arc? Did they really build more of the world by having China become completely inconsequential but visiting for a few days?
Honestly, if you can take out an arc or episodes and more or less have it not affect how you see a character or affect the story, then it serves more as padding to meet their episode quota or as just poor writing.
Actually, you proved the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that personal preference shouldn't be used when critiquing a show. Of course, there are limits, which is why I also understand and agree to an extent to what you're saying. It's just one of those things where, for a plot intensive show, art style as a criticism should probably be lower on the list.
I'm sorry, but you're not making any sense to me. How did I prove your point? And how is the art style a meager point? Anime is a visual medium, isn't it? You can have a good story, but if the art is ill-suited then it become distracting and hard to take the show seriously.
I said that because you were kind of nitpicking and making a minor thing bigger than it should have been (a little bit).
The fanservice was not a major point of my argument. It was one of many factors of what, I feel, is the overall attitude of the show's creators; that Code Geass is just a manufactured product to sell to as many people as possible. That farcical attitude makes it difficult for me to take the show seriously.
I know I may be beating a dead horse and might be leading to a very moot point, but, yeah, personal preference. A majority of your issues seem to be preference rather than actually true plot points, like bad plot holes or blatant asspulls.
Again, you keep pulling up this "personal preference" stuff without explaining what you mean or explaining how I am basing opinions on "personal preference." And I have described several plot holes and asspulls in regard to the story, but critiquing a series is not limited to the plot itself. Art, characters, pacing, themes, all play major roles in storytelling.
When you say it like that, it makes me question "What is a story", you know? Must you include only major events? The minor ones add extra depth to the experience and extra insight as to how the environment is in the show.
Yes, you are correct about that. And I wouldn't mind if there were some light-hearted segments to depict Lelouch's life at Ashford, but the season 2 episode in particular was so nonsensical and over-the-top that it effectively broke the tone of the show. See, I'm fine with the idea, but they had to keep it subdued.
Episode 3 of Code Geass season 1. He used recorded a message that was sent to Kallen. I was saying how that one was good, but the one with Schneizel was a little BS to an extent.
It was total BS. He tricked his literally genius brother into having an extended conversation with a videotape of himself. No one could possibly account for everything the other person would say in that amount of time (plus the variables of pauses and other outside factors), even if they weren't a genius.
Again, you wanna flesh out the world. Not showing anything just because it might become irrelevant in the long run isn't. I know what you mean though. I don't know if you read Fairy Tail or not, but an example of you're saying is when Lisanna is back to life in Edolas in an emotional scene, just to be irrelevant. Even then, that's more of a problem with how the mangaka handles the characters in that show.
No, I don't read Fairy Tail anymore. I read the first 12 volumes and it left me fairly unimpressed. And I've heard the rest of the series is garbage.
But based on how you described that scenario, it sounds pretty similar to Xing-ke. After the China arc, he really became totally irrelevant. And fleshing out your world is fine and all, but at the end of the day do we really care about China, or Xing-ke, or the jailbait princess?
I rated CG with a 8/10 and i think it deserves it
I get what you guys are saying now, Nobodyman, and purple hermit.
CG1 was good.
- Good premise
- Good lead
- Good execution for the most part
- Nice cliffhanger
- Evil laugh
CG2 was meh, then confusing, then ok.
- Shitty resolution to said cliffhanger
- Rolo and all that was meh
- The union or legion or w/e of people with Geasses and shit came out of nowhere
- The Ragnrok Connection and Jupiter was confusing- That pink weapon of mass destruction was meh
- Spinzaku was funny
- Final battle was pretty dumb
- The ending made no sense given all the data based on the canon itself would suggest Lelouch became immortal the moment he obtained dual Geass and his father's code
I thought you only gained immortality when the previous "C.C" died? No?
Also, the whole Ragnorok Connection thing wasn't confusing. What was confusing was Lelouch's counter decision and response. No future and all that,
Did anyone actually understand the messages this show portrayed?
-The Black Knights immediately rejoining Zero after he had abandoned them for a year made no sense
-Just like the China arc from which he sprung, Xing-ke himself was totally pointless and disappeared from the story after that arc was completed.
-What was the point of Gino and Anya joining Ashford? That went nowhere.
-The way in which Shirley regained her memories was random and made no sense.
-What even was the point of killing off Shirley? Lelouch subsequently blaming and razing the Geass compound (another plot cul-de-sac) made no sense. After that he totally forgets about it and doesn't even follow through on his plan to kill Rolo.
-C.C. losing her memories was another random occurrence that only lasted as long as the writers needed it to.
-The Black Knights betrayal of Zero was moronic and made no sense.
-Charles's revelation of his instrumentality plan or whatever was totally idiotic and completely contradicted his previous actions.
What? The entire organization questioned why he left, Tohdoh defended him asking if it was genuinely that important. In the wide scope, it kind of was, his sister was kidnapped which would have been used against him inevitibly anyway.
Xing-ke entire scenario was to reflect the humanity back to lelouche. Not only that but he was a major general who gave Lelouche a hard frekin time at the end. Also the arc was entirely necessary as it was essentially conquering china as a whole. By the end of the anime the entire point was to conquer the world and rest the hate on HIS shoulders. If you notice, after that arc he starts to appreciate Shirley and his fondness of her, only to be taken away.
The ashford gimmick was to simply put more tension on the "thought to be awaken" lelouche. I agree it was overused but it gave flesh to the characters towards the end there, especially with Kallen.
They developed a prototype Geass Canceller, although the Geass was to be the King's power, it did break/resisted, so it wasn't irreversible.
He acknowledges it, he definitely acknowledges it. This is a big point because he starts to lose the closest people around him and allows him to accept a much bigger duty, self sacrifice to redeem princess Eurphemia, which means seperation of everyone else closed to him. Shirley was one of his initial breaking point's. Both characters you critisize as unnecessary deaths were Lelouche's love interests, stated for both.
Unfortunately I don't remember why she even ran into her own memories, or what she was hiding from. So I'll just let that one go.
The reason why, even though he gave results, they hated him was, they didn't know if they were acting for themselves or if they were a puppet. Not only that but he was solely responsible for the genocide princess Euphy. That's a hard pill to swallow, especially for Ohgi because he wanted that oppurtunity.
8)..Okay this one you'll have to elaborate on since it's a very complex thing he was trying to do. Charles didn't care about anything presently happening, he became emporer to conquere these relics. So now he used this instrument to bring back the times that him and Marianna wanted. That means everyone who died would come back, and why he was so apathetic about life itself. In the end it doesn't matter to him, and all of his actions as emperor were going after these relics to have the power of a god and make everyone honest. Prince Scheizenel or however you spell his name wanted everything stagnent with his nuke satellite, while lelouche look towards the future.
Code Geass was one of the first animes that I watched, still, I'm with almost everyone.
The first season was actually good; I still remember how Euphemia's death (I think that's her name) was, somehow, emotional (besides the whole massacre) because it was well executed, as how the whole season was.
The second season, however, I think it's only decent; I could explain with a lot of points and stuff, but I'll just compare it with another anime that Sunrise somehow screwed: Tiger & Bunny. Maybe it's a wrong comparison to do, but the feeling of frustration from watching the both is similar. The ending for Code Geass was still good, it ended making it worth of watching it (different from Tiger & Bunny, where it's kinda of clear that they tried to cash a possible second season but ended ruining it), but the whole execution of the second season could've been better to avoid said frustration.
I thought Code Geass in general was one of those things people liked mostly ironically.
- What? The entire organization questioned why he left, Tohdoh defended him asking if it was genuinely that important. In the wide scope, it kind of was, his sister was kidnapped which would have been used against him inevitibly anyway.
Yeah, but as long as they don't know who their leader is, then it doesn't matter if his reasoning or the "wider scope" is genuine or not. Did Lelouch have a legitimate reason for being away? Sure, why not! Having your memories rewritten is kinda a big deal. But they don't know that, and, aside from a small bit of questioning, they take him back with open arms, the guy who left for a whole year after ditching them in the largest and most crucial battle up to that point.
- Xing-ke entire scenario was to reflect the humanity back to lelouche. Not only that but he was a major general who gave Lelouche a hard frekin time at the end. Also the arc was entirely necessary as it was essentially conquering china as a whole. By the end of the anime the entire point was to conquer the world and rest the hate on HIS shoulders. If you notice, after that arc he starts to appreciate Shirley and his fondness of her, only to be taken away.
Schneizel already does a good job at what you're saying, which I think is saying that Lelouch is shown with more humanity by having a tough time. And really, Lelouch has a lot of problems besides Schneizel. Besides, you really shouldn't have to write in a character for just one arc to build him as a great general just to show that a character is "human." And sure, Lelouch needs to "conquer" China, but for what? China doesn't play any sort of big role later on in the story. Is their China alliance crucial in the defeat of Britannia? They may as well have given some statement and a few battle scenes saying "hey we're teamed up with the EU" and it would have made about as much of the same impact as gaining China.
And let's go with the idea that the whole point of Lelouch's plan from the beginning was to gather all the world's hate on him, even while he was in the black knights (which is absurd). This plan doesn't really make sense in general because he didn't conquer China, he got them to ally with the Black Knights. He's not gathering these nations as part of his Zero plan until he actually becomes emperor, and at that point, China's liberation by the Black Knights still doesn't make much of a difference.
And lol, what does Shirley have to do with whether China went nowhere or not? You could just put Lelouch literally anywhere away from Ashford for some time if you wanted to make that point.
- The ashford gimmick was to simply put more tension on the "thought to be awaken" lelouche. I agree it was overused but it gave flesh to the characters towards the end there, especially with Kallen.
There's plenty of ways to flesh out characters on the side without putting in characters into the situation, and this was one piece of tension that never really built up and went anywhere.
- He acknowledges it, he definitely acknowledges it. This is a big point because he starts to lose the closest people around him and allows him to accept a much bigger duty, self sacrifice to redeem princess Eurphemia, which means seperation of everyone else closed to him. Shirley was one of his initial breaking point's. Both characters you critisize as unnecessary deaths were Lelouch's love interests, stated for both.
He just goes crazy on the Geass order for revenge, which is pretty much the exact opposite of some sort of acceptance of self sacrifice. The Zero plan does come up later, but at this point they just write in that those deaths affected Lelouch so that he can enact his plan. Shirley's death doesn't emphasize the importance of self sacrifice. It's not a breaking point where Lelouch starts to act more in the interests of preserving the people around him or leaving them alone. Hell, he doesn't even follow up on killing Rolo. It was just casually brought up again as a way for him to bring up his "masterful" plan and his rationale behind it.
But the point isn't just that Euphemia and Shirley's deaths are brought up later as fuel for Lelouch's Zero plan or whatever. It's that a lot of the people actually doing the fighting actually survive (and are either implausible or don't serve any point in surviving) while a lot of people on the sidelines die. The Black Knights more or less survive, Xing Ke with his terminal illness survives, even Nunnally manages to outrun a Nuke. It was just a strange selection to choose as to who dies or lives.
- The reason why, even though he gave results, they hated him was, they didn't know if they were acting for themselves or if they were a puppet. Not only that but he was solely responsible for the genocide princess Euphy. That's a hard pill to swallow, especially for Ohgi because he wanted that oppurtunity.
Who are you gonna trust immediately, the guy who's been leading you up til now, or your most hated enemy? Evidently, they thought Schneizel was more trustworthy than Lelouch. Even if it is questionable that they take Zero back so quickly, I'd take up the guy who's in charge of the organization over the guy who definitely is against the whole point of your fight.
8)..Okay this one you'll have to elaborate on since it's a very complex thing he was trying to do. Charles didn't care about anything presently happening, he became emporer to conquere these relics. So now he used this instrument to bring back the times that him and Marianna wanted. That means everyone who died would come back, and why he was so apathetic about life itself. In the end it doesn't matter to him, and all of his actions as emperor were going after these relics to have the power of a god and make everyone honest. Prince Scheizenel or however you spell his name wanted everything stagnent with his nuke satellite, while lelouche look towards the future.
…isn't that the whole point that Nobodyman's making? It was a very complex plan, and when he unveiled everything before he was killed. Before this, Charles was a ruler whose philosophy was of natural selection and stuff like social darwinism. Letting the fact that a lot of the ideas for instrumentality was confusing on its own, basically when he and Marianne explain the plan to Lelouch and Suzaku, they ended up rewriting Charles' character. "Oh you know how I was talking about how people are inequal and some are better than others? JK lol I want everyone equal and happy by making a life without lies!" There isn't anything prior to this that even implies that was his plan or was part of his character, and it was just a complete 180 from what we knew about him before just so that they can write in how he was in cahoots with Lelouch's mother and that they were both just trying to look out for Nunnally and Lelouch right before they died.
Blah blah blah, anyway, I share a lot of the same sentiments of most people here. The first season was pretty fun, and it had a lot of twists and turns that were pretty engaging. Season 2 just left me thinking "huh...?" most of the time, especially in the second half of it. The writing became much less tight and bloated, which resulted in something that felt a lot more cramming whatever they could into it. Tone is one major problem behind it, and it suffers an identity crisis between explaining its magical powers and mystical constructs and resolving the conflict in a convoluted way so as to fit into Lelouch's character.
@Purple:
Yeah, but as long as they don't know who their leader is, then it doesn't matter if his reasoning or the "wider scope" is genuine or not. Did Lelouch have a legitimate reason for being away? Sure, why not! Having your memories rewritten is kinda a big deal. But they don't know that, and, aside from a small bit of questioning, they take him back with open arms, the guy who left for a whole year after ditching them in the largest and most crucial battle up to that point.
Lelouche created the greatest resistance syndicate ever known in the world, the battle he lost was crucial, and a lot were pissed and felt abandoned. Tohdoh, a respected leader, backed him up, which brought confidence back. It kind of makes sense, he has won nearly every battle and made them who they are. Even when he's gone they cling to him. They only assume it was important because there was no legitimate reason for him to abandon them unless it was. That's why they accept it, not because of his simple answer, but Tohdoh's support, who's the most respected of the entire group.
@Purple:
Schneizel already does a good job at what you're saying, which I think is saying that Lelouch is shown with more humanity by having a tough time. And really, Lelouch has a lot of problems besides Schneizel. Besides, you really shouldn't have to write in a character for just one arc to build him as a great general just to show that a character is "human."
It was world building, a new character with the best of both worlds and lelouches apprehensive of taking the political logical way and just letting him have it. It was character building especially since Lelouche technically lost.
@Purple:
And sure, Lelouch needs to "conquer" China, but for what? China doesn't play any sort of big role later on in the story. Is their China alliance crucial in the defeat of Britannia? They may as well have given some statement and a few battle scenes saying "hey we're teamed up with the EU" and it would have made about as much of the same impact as gaining China.
…Yes considering china was the only country in the world that would give refuge to millions of "Zero's". Xing-ke was like the chinese zero, who didn't agree with their government. It showed that the entire world was really in shambles over this political crap. The entire point of it wasn't to expand lelouches humanity (which by the way is no way done through schneizal) but world build everything.
@Purple:
And let's go with the idea that the whole point of Lelouch's plan from the beginning was to gather all the world's hate on him, even while he was in the black knights (which is absurd).
Wow you really didn't understand the story all that well at all. His initial plan was to give him and nunnally a place to live in peace, as they were royalty and to find out about the murder of their mother. They feel as though they were under the belief they would most likely be assassinated or get nunnally be abandoned because of her weak state.
It wasn't until a number of events (including nunally "blowing up") that he decided to harbor this hate and have suzaku purge it and represent himself as zero.
@Purple:
This plan doesn't really make sense in general because he didn't conquer China, he got them to ally with the Black Knights.
He allied initially for asylum, both in the second episode and when they were taken by aircraft carrier. It wasn't until Scheinzal was using the princess as a political pawn to get access to the knights did Zero retaliate, which pissed off Xing-ke. It gave the knight's really a home initially, and that's why that arc was important. He later allied with them as they killed off the goddamn royalty after they admitted to using their princess as a tool. I forgot the political term for it.
@Purple:
He's not gathering these nations as part of his Zero plan until he actually becomes emperor, and at that point, China's liberation by the Black Knights still doesn't make much of a difference.
If I recall china became an extension of the black knights. So it really was Lelouche Brittania VS Black knights Vs I unno pure bloods.
@Purple:
And lol, what does Shirley have to do with whether China went nowhere or not? You could just put Lelouch literally anywhere away from Ashford for some time if you wanted to make that point.
You should probably consider rewatching the anime a few times. Lelouche calls Shirley for advice on what he should do with the couple, where shirley told him love is power and crap. This did leave an influence on his decision and reflected a humane decision rather than a political one. Which would have made him a hypocrite based on the fact he killed china's leader for that reason.
@Purple:
There's plenty of ways to flesh out characters on the side without putting in characters into the situation, and this was one piece of tension that never really built up and went anywhere.
There's plenty of ways to fix the economy, there's plenty of ways to gain eternal peace, blah blah blah. That's not a reason, that's a whine. It gave a relationship between the air pilot guy and kallen which brought perspective.
@Purple:
He just goes crazy on the Geass order for revenge, which is pretty much the exact opposite of some sort of acceptance of self sacrifice.
Yeah, the only reason he even started this war was for the person who just died, because of a kid who, ultimately caused lelouches problems to begin with. I already stated that it isn't suddenly "ZERO PLAN", he chose that plan because he had nothing else to lose.
@Purple:
The Zero plan does come up later, but at this point they just write in that those deaths affected Lelouch so that he can enact his plan. Shirley's death doesn't emphasize the importance of self sacrifice. It's not a breaking point where Lelouch starts to act more in the interests of preserving the people around him or leaving them alone. Hell, he doesn't even follow up on killing Rolo. It was just casually brought up again as a way for him to bring up his "masterful" plan and his rationale behind it.
But the point isn't just that Euphemia and Shirley's deaths are brought up later as fuel for Lelouch's Zero plan or whatever.
They are both lelouches "love interests", stated so by himself. By losing those, and even sazakus trust, he lost sympathy for humanity. When nunally "died", he lost all sense of humanity all together. He wanted blood and he got it. That's why he told Kallen he used her, even though it wasn't truth. After those 3 death's, he began cutting everyone off, the zero plan was later established, but the intention was there as soon as nunally died.
@Purple:
It's that a lot of the people actually doing the fighting actually survive (and are either implausible or don't serve any point in surviving) while a lot of people on the sidelines die. The Black Knights more or less survive, Xing Ke with his terminal illness survives, even Nunnally manages to outrun a Nuke. It was just a strange selection to choose as to who dies or lives.
If I recall nunnally wasn't anywhere near it, it was just staged as such. The people who died were necessary (excluding Euphy, that was just an accident he had to exploit).
@Purple:
Who are you gonna trust immediately, the guy who's been leading you up til now, or your most hated enemy? Evidently, they thought Schneizel was more trustworthy than Lelouch. Even if it is questionable that they take Zero back so quickly, I'd take up the guy who's in charge of the organization over the guy who definitely is against the whole point of your fight.
Considering that Schneizal offered them the freedom of Japan for Zero, a guy who manipulated and had caused one of the most recent red weddings in history. Pretty obvious there.
@Purple:
…isn't that the whole point that Nobodyman's making? It was a very complex plan, and when he unveiled everything before he was killed. Before this, Charles was a ruler whose philosophy was of natural selection and stuff like social darwinism. Letting the fact that a lot of the ideas for instrumentality was confusing on its own, basically when he and Marianne explain the plan to Lelouch and Suzaku, they ended up rewriting Charles' character. "Oh you know how I was talking about how people are inequal and some are better than others? JK lol I want everyone equal and happy by making a life without lies!" There isn't anything prior to this that even implies that was his plan or was part of his character, and it was just a complete 180 from what we knew about him before just so that they can write in how he was in cahoots with Lelouch's mother and that they were both just trying to look out for Nunnally and Lelouch right before they died.
Of course he believed that, the world to him was that, he had a god complex. His solution to it was to remove the lies to make everyone equal. When you're about to go back in time and bring everything back to what their perception of perfection is, death doesn't matter and all men are inferior to you because you have that power.
I also believe he fueled that to give him an excuse for him to expand across the world to get those alters. He fueld war and that pompous attitude to not only distract the world but to give him the power/resources to make his true dream true.
- They developed a prototype Geass Canceller, although the Geass was to be the King's power, it did break/resisted, so it wasn't irreversible.
Not the Geass Canceller itself, but the way in which it happened.
So Shirley is just walking down some random street and Jeremiah just so happens to be testing it out in some random apartment/hotel nearby. Like, why would he even be doing that?
EDIT: Actually, Jeremiah was the best part of Season 2.
Not the Geass Canceller itself, but the way in which it happened.
So Shirley is just walking down some random street and Jeremiah just so happens to be testing it out in some random apartment/hotel nearby. Like, why would he even be doing that?
EDIT: Actually, Jeremiah was the best part of Season 2.
I'd have to rewatch the episode but I'm pretty sure he knew who she was because they were researching lelouche
We can go on debating all of this in detail, but the main point behind our gripes isn't whether or not they can make sense. There can be an explanation, and there it can make as much sense as possible, but the execution is terrible and it feeds into something that is inconsistent within its own structure.
Even if it makes sense for example that Charles had a God complex, there's nothing hinting at it. There's nothing setting us up to believe that Charles had that plan all along and that he cared to make people equal. It doesn't matter what his solution was, the story never showed that side of him up until he activated the sword of akasha, and in the same episode he was killed. His whole backstory as being in cahoots with Marianne to defeat "God" can make sense (although his explanation at the time didn't sell me that killing the collective human unconsciousness would make everything gentler, especially when they were trying to sell the idea to Suzaku as "reuniting with Euphemia" which is true and false at the same time), but it's just thrown all at once with little development that it doesn't work very well. In that same way, Rolo's death was cheapened because they tried to portray him as sympathetic at the very last moment when pretty much every moment showed him as a scumbag otherwise.
It's like how a lot of series now offer a villain's backstory right before they're defeated in an attempt of what many people call "flesh them out," but because it's thrown right before they die, what sort of sympathy are they trying to generate when they're right about to die? It makes the feeling completely inconsistent and while it may "flesh" them out, it does have the possibility of weakening the character. Just because you can add it doesn't mean you should. It doesn't make them more human necessarily, and it doesn't cause sympathy to arise.
Even if Jeremiah, for example, was out and about to research Lelouch and happened to think that Shirley had a geass cast on her, why her? He could've picked some other schmuck to de-Geass that Lelouch was probably experimenting on. Shirley just happened to be there and Jeremiah just happened to use it on her? Why? Because they needed her to regain her memories so that she can be brutally murdered.
I admit it's been awhile since I've watched the series, so I can't hit every single point, but the execution of things from what I recall was definitely not something top notch offered by the series, and in the end caused things to be inconsistent within itself as to the tone set.
Edit: as for that Jeremiah bit, it definitely was more than just a bit random that she happened to be walking along, as he was just trying it out while talking to V.V. He even says he doesn't know who's under Geass Influence.
SereneSun, I do like your points.
It seems as if a lot of the people who deem certain stories with "poor writing" really just don't understand it. It's similar to how you have people who say all Final Fantasy games have bad stories, when in reality, only a few of them do. Most of them usually good stories or okay stories that just need some fleshing out.
On the subject of artstyle, any artstyle is fun as long as they are able to show the emotion of the characters and represen the setting, which I think Code Geass did a wonderful job at.
It seems as if a lot of the people who deem certain stories with "poor writing" really just don't understand it.
Or, you know, maybe some stories just have poor writing.
Or, you know, maybe some stories just have poor writing.
i think he meant for some stories that people don't understand. not all obviously, some are just bad like fairy tail.
Final Fantasy games have good plots in the sense that everything fits in within its own internal structure. That is to say, a lot of the plots are very simple, but they serve the gameplay and allow for a freedom to explore about while fighting towards an end goal. 1, 3, and 5 in particular have very simple stories, and they're not going to win awards for anything, but they have a charm to them that resonates with the rest of the world they built. They're not going to win any awards for them, but the rest of them prior to 11 or so were also good at giving a grand scope of things. The key is the medium involved. Video games give full control to a player to allow them to immerse themselves in the world, which opens up another can of worms in terms of how you pace it and keep up the momentum. But it should be expected that these sorts of series evoke a sense of wonder because part of the fun involved is just exploring.
Anime is a visual medium as well but with its own pacing to work out for half hour stories per week. People can't just pick up a controller and explore the world at their leisure, which is how the director comes into play by commanding its writing. Even if there was sense behind things provided by an explanation doesn't mean anything if everything behind it is poorly plotted out relative to the rest of the story. Especially because you have only so much time to tell a story, such as 25 episodes or so, each step should be building a solid foundation towards the next step in conjunction with the last piece. If they had the time (and they did! unless they wanted to use that time to develop XingKe and the Chinese out like they spent in season 1 with the black knights), why not use it to truly and actually flesh out character motivations like Charles'. It just became all Evangelion in the snap of the fingers.
In comparison, looking at something like One Piece for example, can you say that half of its story didn't have something that is eventually built upon later or references something earlier? Davy Back Fight aside, you've got setups for things, befriending countries, getting new crewmembers, most things lead to ramifications in the world, even as Oda builds the world. Same with Lord of the Rings or any other story with a grand world to explore. Of course, these are much larger works, so they have much more room to wiggle around, but they stay true to their core.
To me, Code Geass is enjoyable in season one. The premise is set, it's already building the world one step at a time, it's developing characters consistently, and we have some clear development of characters and consequences based on one event. Lelouch kills Clovis -> Cornelia shows up -> Euphemia shows up to help out and does -> falls in love with Suzaku -> Suzaku has it out for Zero. On the side, Zero builds up his army -> More people in Japan take to his side -> it's looking to be building up to some large end fight in the climax. Everything is consistent within itself. And of course for the enemies, you've got royalty who believe to stand above the people, and an emperor who believes in the natural right for rule along those lines. In fact, it kinda reminds me a lot of Ozai from AtLA, except Ozai never got a secret spirit world merger plan with Ursa and that's why he sent off Zuko. He was just a huge dick.
And I'll stick with that the art style is just representative that they were trying to hook both the school drama and mecha crowds at the same time by placing both in to milk it for all its worth, but whatever.
Now, is R2 the worst I've ever read/watched? Of course not. But placing it 10/10 best anime ever when there are much more evocative, much better written, much better explored and "fleshed out" worlds and characters is a biiiiiiiiig stretch.
i think he meant for some stories that people don't understand. not all obviously, some are just bad like fairy tail.Yes, but Code Geass just had poor writing.
@Purple:
Yes, but Code Geass just had poor writing.
I think you're seriously exaggerating when you say that Code Geass has poor writing.
I think you're seriously exaggerating when you say that Code Geass has poor writing.
Season 2 had some really piss poor writing. No exaggeration.
Season 2 had some really piss poor writing. No exaggeration.
I don't get how it's piss poor.
Maybe I'm just saying that because I have this show I'm working on with a story I've planned ahead in, yet, I have a feeling there would be people bashing on it for stuff similar to you guys. I have feeling people will complain at just how different and radical the main story is, instead of trying criticize the actual quality of the writing itself.
Code Geass is anything but radical and different. It litterally mixed everything that worked at the time into one anime.
What's so radical about Code Geass? Is it that it has mecha and a melodramatic storyline? Chess? Pizza Hut?
Our issues aren't about how different or radical it is. In fact, if it were more like a lot of other stuff shat out by various production companies as of late, it'd probably be even more panned.
maybe i'm just saying that because i have this show i'm working on with a story i've planned ahead in, yet, i have a feeling there would be people bashing on it for stuff similar to you guys. I have feeling people will complain at just how different and radical the main story is, instead of trying criticize the actual quality of the writing itself.
i have this show i'm working on
i have this show i'm working on
In case you guys thought I was talking about Code Geass being radical and different. Chances are you are talking about what will make the criticisms similar if CG isn't radical and wild and different.
I'm saying that the same reason why you guys bashing on Code Geass is similar to the show I'm working on. Not that Code Geass is different. It's just that you guys kind of like to question the logic of things and say "i would have preferred this" "or do this" or "this is just dumb and stupid" rather than
But that insinuates that we're only criticizing season 2 for being radical or that our gripes are on those things that make it different. From a storytelling point of view, it's just garbage.
But my advice to you is to take criticism for what it is for your work and see how to improve it. Or work with an editor if you're scared of going out there. There will be people who probably will criticize it for being out of the norm, but take in suggestions on what is weak within the story. After all, it was only with a lot of internal criticism and suggestions that Star Wars' original trilogy came about as it did as opposed to George Lucas handling everything.
OH yeeeah if Lucas never got any criticism for his original trilogy…boy howdy would we have a completely different product.
Can I get a link to the criticisms, or should I just use Wikipedia
I don't get how it's piss poor.
Maybe I'm just saying that because I have this show I'm working on with a story I've planned ahead in, yet, I have a feeling there would be people bashing on it for stuff similar to you guys. I have feeling people will complain at just how different and radical the main story is, instead of trying criticize the actual quality of the writing itself.
All I can say on this topic is….Criticism...GET USED TO IT or GIVE UP because criticism is part of the job.
Can I get a link to the criticisms, or should I just use Wikipedia
You could or you could just watch redlettermedia
When you're on the production side, there's no good or bad criticism from your consummers, because in most cases you simply won't be able to tell "no you're wrong my work is deep you just can't see it". If they don't like it, whatever the reason, it means that you failed somewhere.