There's a BIG difference between a small mini-arc like Davy Back and a main arc like Skypeia or Alabasta.
So no, shounen logic does not dictate that Foxy > Enel at all.
Though it does state that Lucci > Enel > Crocodile > Arlong.
There's a BIG difference between a small mini-arc like Davy Back and a main arc like Skypeia or Alabasta.
So no, shounen logic does not dictate that Foxy > Enel at all.
Though it does state that Lucci > Enel > Crocodile > Arlong.
I think that if Arlong fought Crocodile in the sand, Arlong would lose, but if Crocodile fought Arlong at Arlong Park, crocodile would have won, being so close to the ocean and his pool (it's unlikely crocodile could dry out the whole ocean).
All arlong would have had to do was use the watergun tactic he used on Sanji and Zoro, it would have been effective against crocodile, and so would the move where he went in the water and then leaped out at superspeed and tried to stab luffy, in fact that would have owned crocodile.
There's a BIG difference between a small mini-arc like Davy Back and a main arc like Skypeia or Alabasta.
I know that. Eversince the Strawhats got to the Grand Line there were two classes of antagonists, the mega arc antagonists (Crocodile, Enel, Lucci) and the mini arc antagonists (Wapol, Bellamy, Foxy).
What I tried to explain here is that One Piece has some exceptions for the Shonen Logic. It´s not like DragonBall where it is clear that the next best villain is by far stronger then the previous one. For antagonists of one kind One Piece uses something that could be classified as a scissors, stone, paper principle. There is no definite prove that the later villain is definitely stronger then the previous one. It could be, it could not be that´s the beautiful thing about One Piece.
Enel could beat Crocodile, but on the other hand Crocodile could beat Enel. Lucci could beat both of them, but on the other hand each of them could beat Lucci. The fact that Luffy defeats each of them in a chronologic order doesn´t mean shit here, because he defeats each villain on a different way whereas the shonen formula indicates that the protagonists wins with the same skills only more powerful then before = Goku: "Next time I use a bigger fireball".
That doesn´t apply for One Piece. Shonen logic would be if Luffy would defeat Enel and Lucci with the same approach he used against Crocodile and that was water. Without water he wouldn´t have defeated Crocodile. So to follow shonen logic he has to use water against Enel but he fails in the first attempt because he´s weaker then Enel. Then he needs to train until he is stronger and tries again with the same approach and finally defeats Enel. Same goes for Lucci then.
Sorry but that´s not the case here. He defeated Enel because he was made of rubber. That is an approach that would have worked even before he defeated Crocodile. He defeats his enemies because he gets through to their weaknesses. Crocodile´s weakness was water, Enel´s was rubber. Once he had that at his hands he knew how to deal with them.
Lucci is another caliber. He´s not a logia user. He´s a zoan fighter. Using water or rubber against Lucci won´t do him any good. He has to punch through his Tekkai, he has to dodge his Rankyaku, he has to see him comming when he does a high speed leopard Soru. In other words, the key to defeat Lucci is to be better then him in the terms of strenght, speed, reaction…= athletics.
However beeing faster, stronger etc. wouldn´t have helped against Enel and Crocodile if he wouldn´t have rubber or water to use against them.
You see for each opponent there´s a different approach on how to defeat them. I agree that Luffy get´s stronger in each fight, but that alone doesn´t help him to defeat his opponents in a classic shonen-esque manner. One Piece is different here then other stories. The scissors, stone, paper style definitely applies here.
I have to disagree there, Ivotas. While it's true that Luffy uses a different approach each time, I still hold that each of the later villains could take down the earlier villains. They all use various abilities, yes, but that's what makes One Piece good, that each fight is different. It's not the same thing over and over and over.
However, that doesn't mean that the villains aren't stronger each time. It just means that Oda is good at coming up with varying fights.
So, you're on board with Arlong and Jinbei being equals then as well?
Now I really can not understand this quote and logic, How in the hell could someone in the Shichibukai a pirate that was a great threat to the government be equal with Arlong. Jinbei is clearly stronger than Arlong, Arlong was sent out by Jinbei to conquer East Blue.
Yosaku is a total idiot he knows nothing just because he says they were equal is a bunch of crap. Yosaku and Johnny also thought that Zoro could beat Mihawk and they knew he was Shichibukai. So it is obvious they do not know what they are talking about.
He never said they were equal, that Arlong was close to strength with him… and that can mean a lot of things. I'd explain but I have trouble putting these kinds of thoughts into words.
Yet again we come back to the timing and bounty thing. You'd like to believe Jinbei is far superior because he's still big in their world and Arlong had a small bounty. But it wasn't about strength. You think Arlong would still be placed at 20 while Bellamy hit 55 million if he actually tried?
And so Yosaku underestimated Mihawk. Everything he says is wrong now? That's like me saying he's always somewhat right because he knew there were chefs at Baratie. As of right now, the only things we know about Jinbei came from him, so…
Yeah, I agree with Ivotas. Luffy may grow stronger, but that doesn't mean there's an order to his enemies.
…I still hold that each of the later villains could take down the earlier villains...
There is nothing wrong with that. They could own the previous villains. But they could also lose to them. That´s the beauty of One Piece.
Though there have to be different classifications of the villains. Krieg and Arlong are one class. Crocodile, Enel and Lucci another. Wapol, Bellamy and Foxy are somewhere in between though I think they are closer to the East Blue dudes then to the Grand Line antagonists.
Within these classes I think anyone could beat the other. Outside of that I´d say the Grand Line dudes would own the others no matter in what evironment they fight.
i'm so surprised when rockman came out again,i thought it was broken down.
So cool~!there should be a great battle in chapter 400^^
Yet again we come back to the timing and bounty thing. You'd like to believe Jinbei is far superior because he's still big in their world and Arlong had a small bounty. But it wasn't about strength. You think Arlong would still be placed at 20 while Bellamy hit 55 million if he actually tried?
And so Yosaku underestimated Mihawk. Everything he says is wrong now? That's like me saying he's always somewhat right because he knew there were chefs at Baratie. As of right now, the only things we know about Jinbei came from him, so…
Yeah, I agree with Ivotas. Luffy may grow stronger, but that doesn't mean there's an order to his enemies.
Yosaku knew that Hawkeye was the world's greatest Swordsman
Yosaku knew that he was Shichibukai
And you are telling me that he underestimated Mihawk a little please that is clealry a fool talking. Hell yes Yosaku is wrong about the Jinbei situation and the chefs Baratie situation is not the same thing. What he says does not make sense. That is like saying Bellamy is Doflamingo's Equal.
Come on now?
There is nothing wrong with that. They could own the previous villains. But they could also lose to them. That´s the beauty of One Piece.
Though there have to be different classifications of the villains. Krieg and Arlong are one class. Crocodile, Enel and Lucci another. Wapol, Bellamy and Foxy are somewhere in between though I think they are closer to the East Blue dudes then to the Grand Line antagonists.
Within these classes I think anyone could beat the other. Outside of that I´d say the Grand Line dudes would own the others no matter in what evironment they fight.
Let's expand on this further.
Crocodile vs. Lucci = Lucci would lose in most cases. Lucci is a physical fighter and it's been proven with Crocodile that he is very hard to hit. If Lucci fought Crocodile, it would be a tight battle, but once Lucci hit on the same solution Luffy did, using liquids to seal Crocodile's ability, Lucci could win. On the other hand I don't take Lucci to be someone Robin would have saved Lucci from the sink-hole Crocodile made if Lucci had found himself in Luffy's place during the first encounter Luffy and Crocodile had.
Enel vs. Lucci = Lucci crispy critter. It was proven time and time again leading up to the Enel vs. Luffy fight that anyone who attacked Enel without being grounded would be zapped to kingdom come. Also keep in mind, unlike all the other villians Enel in One Piece, Enel was simply driven off. Luffy is to Gol D. Roger as Enel is to Whitebeard. Enel and Luffy are the top dogs in the One Piece universe. Well… Luffy is getting there, but will be there.
Enel vs. Crocodile on the surface looks like a stalemate, but upon closer inspection you'd realize Enel would defeat Crocodile. It's been proven Enel can produce highly consentrated amounts of heat, thus he could in theory turn Crocodile to glass and then shatter Crocodile.
thus he could in theory turn Crocodile to glass and then shatter Crocodile
We can't be sure of that. Unless Oda show us something like that, it is simply impossible to determine who among them could win.
Though there have to be different classifications of the villains. Krieg and Arlong are one class. Crocodile, Enel and Lucci another. Wapol, Bellamy and Foxy are somewhere in between though I think they are closer to the East Blue dudes then to the Grand Line antagonists.
I disagree. I think Wapol was far beneath even the East Blue villains. And I think Foxy would never give so much trouble to Arlong, Krieg or Kuro, since they would just not agree to the whole Davy Back Fight and not play in Foxy's terms. (Maybe Buggy would play in Foxy's terms, but he would also use trickery to win). Now Bellamy may be another story, but I still can't see him owning any of the East Blue villains.
@Shen:
Let's expand on this further.
Crocodile vs. Lucci = Lucci would lose in most cases. Lucci is a physical fighter and it's been proven with Crocodile that he is very hard to hit. If Lucci fought Crocodile, it would be a tight battle, but once Lucci hit on the same solution Luffy did, using liquids to seal Crocodile's ability, Lucci could win. On the other hand I don't take Lucci to be someone Robin would have saved Lucci from the sink-hole Crocodile made if Lucci had found himself in Luffy's place during the first encounter Luffy and Crocodile had.
I'd like to add that Lucci is a HELL of a lot better than Luffy was back then as a physical fighter. He wouldn't have been run through to begin with.
Also, he's a CP9 agent and, unlike Luffy, most definitely knows about logia users and that they have weaknesses.
I'd say this one is mostly in the bag for Lucci, unless Crocodile gets in a lucky hit (as Lucci can Soru around his ass all day) and drains the moisture.
@Shen:
Enel vs. Lucci = Lucci crispy critter. It was proven time and time again leading up to the Enel vs. Luffy fight that anyone who attacked Enel without being grounded would be zapped to kingdom come. Also keep in mind, unlike all the other villians Enel in One Piece, Enel was simply driven off. Luffy is to Gol D. Roger as Enel is to Whitebeard. Enel and Luffy are the top dogs in the One Piece universe. Well… Luffy is getting there, but will be there.
And, once again, Lucci is bigger and badder. And, most of all, faster. I doubt One Piece is so realistic that lightning will be moving the speed of light. In other words, somebody fast (like CP9's best fighter) can probably dodge the lightning.
And Lucci's clever. He could probably find a way around Enel's logia fruit. Grounding, rubber, I dunno, but there are ways.
Of course, depending on how Oda would do the lightning, my first point might be moot. Then it comes down to how much Lucci could take before he figures a way to counter Enel. But, then again, Lucci is one TOUGH sunnuva… so at that point, I'd say it's 50/50.
@Shen:
Enel vs. Crocodile on the surface looks like a stalemate, but upon closer inspection you'd realize Enel would defeat Crocodile. It's been proven Enel can produce highly consentrated amounts of heat, thus he could in theory turn Crocodile to glass and then shatter Crocodile.
So a guy made of sand can't ground electricity?
Playing devil's advocate here…. but... Crocodile is clever. Enel isn't. Crocodile might beat Enel by outthinking him.
Foxy could just get in a suprise Noro Noro and bang the shit outta most of those guys. And if Crocodile fought Lucci in the desert, I'm sure it'd be more to him than just a lucky hit. like you said, he's clever.
But those guys lost anyway. It (should be?) is all about the current enemies now, anyway.
Wow, this has gotten… wierd.
I feel but one thing to say...
So prediction prediction for 400+:
Changsho. Get a rowboat, learn Japanese (or do you know it?), and go be Oda's apprentice/follower/disciple/dog.
That is, verily, awesome.
There is nothing wrong with that. They could own the previous villains. But they could also lose to them. That´s the beauty of One Piece.
Though there have to be different classifications of the villains. Krieg and Arlong are one class. Crocodile, Enel and Lucci another. Wapol, Bellamy and Foxy are somewhere in between though I think they are closer to the East Blue dudes then to the Grand Line antagonists.
Within these classes I think anyone could beat the other. Outside of that I´d say the Grand Line dudes would own the others no matter in what evironment they fight.
Don't count Foxy out of any fight. His battle with luffy was anybody's game up until the final blow. The man is smart, and he's tricky. I'm sure he could devise a way of taking on any enemy Luffy's fought so far. Especially Arlong, that fight would rock. "SHARK DA-noro, noro" "NINETAILRUSH!" "FUCKING HUMAAAAAAAA-"
But I digress. Foxy has a lot in common with buggy, and not just in fashon sense (ZING!) Both Foxy and Buggy have a kind of adaptability that the more "serious" enemie's lack. When Arlong lost, yes he was carted off by the navy or whatever but still, the guy just diappeared. Buggy and Foxy went "we'll get that bastard next time…and their will be a next time."
In the end, it's that determination that makes them closer to being Luffy's equals than Crocodile or Arlong.
@Cap'n:
goddammit why do you idiots argue over every miniscule non-important aspect of the story.
Man, you watch 12 Oz Mouse for God's sake. As such, you have exactly zero moral authority when it comes to ever critizing anybody else's hobby.
I'd like to add that Lucci is a HELL of a lot better than Luffy was back then as a physical fighter. He wouldn't have been run through to begin with.
Also, he's a CP9 agent and, unlike Luffy, most definitely knows about logia users and that they have weaknesses.
I'd say this one is mostly in the bag for Lucci, unless Crocodile gets in a lucky hit (as Lucci can Soru around his ass all day) and drains the moisture.
And, once again, Lucci is bigger and badder. And, most of all, faster. I doubt One Piece is so realistic that lightning will be moving the speed of light. In other words, somebody fast (like CP9's best fighter) can probably dodge the lightning.
And Lucci's clever. He could probably find a way around Enel's logia fruit. Grounding, rubber, I dunno, but there are ways.
Of course, depending on how Oda would do the lightning, my first point might be moot. Then it comes down to how much Lucci could take before he figures a way to counter Enel. But, then again, Lucci is one TOUGH sunnuva… so at that point, I'd say it's 50/50.
So a guy made of sand can't ground electricity?
Playing devil's advocate here.... but... Crocodile is clever. Enel isn't. Crocodile might beat Enel by outthinking him.
This has got to be the most Clever post that I read all day.
First thankyou Paulie for having an open mind, and letting whoever the person post this realize a few things about the anime universe. I really do appreciate your Logic Once again I thankyou.
Oh one question, what do you mean by actually Grounding? I know what you are talking about but need more specifics.
"Grounding" refers to dissipating lightning into harmlessness by redirecting it into the earth…
In a fight against Enel (on land or the holy land, which is earth) he can redirect the lightning by using metal to redirect the current into the ground.
For Crocodile... well, he IS ground. He's as likely to be immune to Enel as Enel is "likely" to turn him to glass. But in either case, Crocodile still has brains over Enel, so I don't think it matters... one way is just easier for him.
"Grounding" refers to dissipating lightning into harmlessness by redirecting it into the earth…
In a fight against Enel (on land or the holy land, which is earth) he can redirect the lightning by using metal to redirect the current into the ground.
For Crocodile... well, he IS ground. He's as likely to be immune to Enel as Enel is "likely" to turn him to glass. But in either case, Crocodile still has brains over Enel, so I don't think it matters... one way is just easier for him.
Oh I see thankyou, but I do not think Ener's lighting can harnish that kind of heat.
Cause after all Ener's attacks their was no fire to be seen after the lightning had struck the ground or opponent. I doubt his lightning could heat up like that.
Honestly I think Luffy had more trouble with Foxy than Eneru.
I think you're right..but only because Luffy was immune to so many of Enel's techniques…
On Kreig vs. Alrong. I'd like to repeat what someone else said, that Yosaku said Alrong was stronger was Oda's way of saying he was stronger. In shounen anime there is other some sort of plot divice to show off one's strength, and this was Alrong's only way to show that he was stronger than Krieg since he was just defeated and at the time "the strongest in east blue."
I think it would be a great and painful fight but I think Arlongs strength would win out. Vs kreig's arrow the effects would be the same as Luffy's--sinking in but not killing. Against MH5...swiming in nearby water. Against the battle spear...would this hurt him so badly? And the mermen don't swim to stay on fire very long (Kreig's flamethrower) judging from Chuu vs. Ussop.
Throughout Arlong's fight with Luffy, Alrong seemed to have a strength advantage until Luffy used "berserk mode", where the fight ended instantly. Couldn't Arlong break Kreigs arm as well, seeing as he endured a gatling gun which "softened" Kreig's armor?
Come to think of it, what would Kreig do vs. an enraged Alrong? Those weapons would piss him off quick, could Kreig defeat against the saw-toothed sword that Arlong uses?
Also, consider a fight crew vs. crew. Mermen are stronger than the average man, as seen in their taking over of Nami's village. The normal crew mates would go down quick leaving only pearl, gin, and Kreig. With Hatchi, Chuu, and Kuroobi with Alrong and several mermen--they'd be outnumbered. But I guess this paragraph is too much speculation.
Of course, they'll never have the chance to fight. What I really wonder about is Kuro vs. Krieg--couldn't just slit Kreig's throat with his speed or would Kreig catch him in time? I guess the One Piece Villians are really more designed to fight the Strawhat rather than each other.
So..any more thoughts on this chapter?
I disagree. I think Wapol was far beneath even the East Blue villains…
That´s why I thought I see them closer to the East Blue villains then to the Grand Line ones but I still take them as a league for themselves.
On the topic of Wapol he is the character with the largest variety in battle power. It completely depends on what he´s eaten. What we saw him use against Luffy was not the max of his powers. If he would have looked like this I´m sure he would have been a better fight. Luffy would have defeated him anyway but his battle power would have definitely be higher then it was actually. Therefore it is difficult to determine a fix point where his battle power lies when it is such an object of variety.
This discussion of amperagexvoltage sadly can't be proven. While we have people that survived Enel's attack with a slightly crisped skin he made pieces of land disappear before even having access to the Advent of Thunder. Furthermore we have that gold shaping thing. For that to happen i assume he had to heat the gold to a certain level then "shape it" (this method is unclear but being eletricity you could create mini polarized spots in the places you want gold to fill).
To liquify gold you need to reach 1064.18 °C(1947.52 °F) and according to wikipedia to make silica aka sand into glass you have to reach 2000ºC(3600ºF) but with a little potassium you could lower this to 1000ºC.
So it all comes down to brains and i think Croc beats Enel in this. Enel isn't exactly dumb, he made Maxim (i believe it was his desings) and had good athletics… he just had the bad luck of fighting his natural enemy.
Also i have no idea how the fact of crocodile "being" ground can interfere in the heating process.
So, IMO, this like so many other "fights" in OP goes to the readers choice. I take Croc with the pimp coat against eminem.
Don t forget Enel's Mantra !!
I don t really know how does it work, but i am not sure that Croc could surpass it!!
Moreover Enel's Mantra is powerup with his logia ability…. so you have to be really dumb to hit him or have unpredictable move.... Who else than luffy is better for that?
Don t forget Enel's Mantra !!
I don t really know how does it work, but i am not sure that Croc could surpass it!!
Moreover Enel's Mantra is powerup with his logia ability…. so you have to be really dumb to hit him or have unpredictable move.... Who else than luffy is better for that?
Hatchan.
Moreover Enel's Mantra is powerup with his logia ability…. so you have to be really dumb to hit him or have unpredictable move.... Who else than luffy is better for that?
Gedatsu for one; he's stupid and unpredictable. Even Luffy comes across as a Mensa Candidate compared to somebody who forgets how to blink.
I want to see a Mr. 4 versus Mantra user matchup. Not Ener because he's too powerful and has the attention span of a rhesus monkey on crack, but I'd be interested to see how a lesser Mantra user would fare against Mr. 4.
They may well go insane trying to figure out what he's planning to do.
IIIIIIIIII TTTTTHHHHIIIIIINNNNKKKK IIIII''''LLLLL HHHIIIITTTT HHHHIIIIMMMM…...
Since I'm trying to stay clear of the spoiler thread, I thought I'd post something that's been bothering me this whole week…..
In the last page, Franky grabs Rocketman on it's nose, with his back facing towards the wall of Judicial Tower. Since Franky's back will be the first thing crashing through JT's wall, is it possible that he'll be injured and possible incapacitated for the fight against CP9?
Since I'm trying to stay clear of the spoiler thread, I thought I'd post something that's been bothering me this whole week…..
In the last page, Franky grabs Rocketman on it's nose, with his back facing towards the wall of Judicial Tower. Since Franky's back will be the first thing crashing through JT's wall, is it possible that he'll be injured and possible incapacitated for the fight against CP9?
No.
Give him a break, he prolly hasnt read the spoiler XP
Give him a break, he prolly hasnt read the spoiler XP
Of course he doesn´t. That was his first sentence in his post now was it. :mellow:
Oops. Seems I'm skimming too fast.
Since I'm trying to stay clear of the spoiler thread, I thought I'd post something that's been bothering me this whole week…..
In the last page, Franky grabs Rocketman on it's nose, with his back facing towards the wall of Judicial Tower. Since Franky's back will be the first thing crashing through JT's wall, is it possible that he'll be injured and possible incapacitated for the fight against CP9?
I won't ruin it for you, but the matchups have already been confirmed and franky does have a fight. I won't tell you who.
Eh, actually, Chopper…. oh well. No spoilers here.
Eh, actually, Chopper…. oh well. No spoilers here.
Chopper too, IMHO. Check my last post on the spolier thread
Eh, your last post in the spoiler thread talks about you thinking how hattori will be included in lucci's move repertoire. Check my last post in the thread…
I won't ruin it for you, but the matchups have already been confirmed and franky does have a fight. I won't tell you who.
….That's still part of a spoiler. Don't mention any AT ALL.
The person asked if it was possible, not for a definite answer. If someone wants a definite answer they could just go to the thread themselves, so that people who don't wanna know a thing can stay good.
Eh, your last post in the spoiler thread talks about you thinking how hattori will be included in lucci's move repertoire. Check my last post in the thread…
This is insane…:laugh:
It is impossible to track anyone's post in that thread. It is flowing too fast. Everytime I leave the forum and return a few hours later, there's two or three new pages there.
lol the spoiler thread for the next chapter has twice as many pages as the disc. on the current chapter :/
That's because all the new posters want to discuss the new stuff only not some old thing that was out before the forums moved :laugh:
I won't ruin it for you, but the matchups have already been confirmed and franky does have a fight. I won't tell you who.
Phew, good thing you didn't post the spoiler, except for the part that was a spoiler.
Something I will find funny this week is to see people on the chapter thread discussing the same things that are being discussed in the spoiler thread. Everything will repeat itself, specially people surprised with what happens and who is going to do what to who. ^_^
I won't spoil anything to you, but next chapter will be good (as if there was ever a bad chapter in One Piece…)
I had a feeling that it's gonna be a good chapter, especially since there have been 600 posts in the spoiler thread in only a day and a half….. ;)
I won't ruin it for you, but the matchups have already been confirmed and franky does have a fight. I won't tell you who.
I'm glad I've been proven wrong. It would've been kinda lame for Franky to finally get away from CP9 only to get injured again…..
Sorry to bump such an old thread, but did everyone see the amazing colour job done by NULL on the spread?
Sorry to bump such an old thread, but did everyone see the amazing colour job done by NULL on the spread?
Um, no. Can you link it, by any chance?
Um, no. Can you link it, by any chance?
There is a ddl for chapter 399 on their website http://www.n-u-l-l.net/