I spent time staring at that page, but the form かって栄えた is completely alien to me. Is nigiru supposed to be 握る here? If it's possible, it could also mean 'the kingdom that seized all the keys [to whatever]'
Chapter 395 "Ohara vs. the World Government" Discussion
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Where exactly do these retards get the idea that Clover's information was 'flawed.'
If Clover thought what he knew was flawed, he wouldn't say it. He's not an arrogant type of person like that, this was his life's research along with several other people all working together and even voyaging (Olvia) to discover more and more info. What they knew, they knew.
If Clover says the name of the old civilization is the key towards figuring everything else out, then it is. If he knew the name of the old civilization (he did), then he knew the name of that civilization.
There's no evidence at all that Clover was shitting himself with his life's work, and there's tons of evidence that he was right on the mark (the destruction of his entire Island).
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**theinvisibleworm, I suggest you learn to read more carefully before you call people useless names.
@stephens:
Clover: Before I die, let me speak with the "Gorousei"… with the leaders of the world!!
As incomplete and flawed as it may be,
I would like to give them my hypothesis
on the "Lost 100 years" as found by the long-running research of Ohara, the holy land of archaeology!!!The name migt be the key. But there are holes and flaws. whether you like it or not.**
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They then confirm his hypothesis by killing him, which is the point. That's not totally obvious? Octogon, evidence of folley in Clover's theory would be something like the Gourosei telling him, "we're sorry Clover, you're wrong." Then killing him. Instead, they solemnly said "Kill him" right before he said the name. They obviously had a lot of respect for Clover.
What would the flaws be? What does the manga give you, other than Clover's own humility, that evidences flaw his theory?
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Yes, he has the concept. But he is still missing some things, like the ideals. But even without evidence like that, his hypothesis was confirmed with the command to kill him.
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They then confirm his hypothesis by killing him, which is the point. That's not totally obvious?
**No it's not. Clover had grasped the concept. Of course the goursei would eliminate all threat to their power. We don't know if they are hiding something more, but they probaley are. they were gioing to destroy Ohara even before they heard clovers hypothesis. Like I said there was a 1/10000000000000000
Chance someone from Ohara who knew the anicient language, knew clovers hypothesis AND had intentions of finding the true history would escape from CP9, the buster call ships and 5 vice-admirals.You can't deny what Clover said. Now, can you?**
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I just did deny what Clover said, that's called humility. It's his theory which means he did believe it, don't be stupid. It's something he believed from his research, he was being humble and acknowledging that it was incomplete (I never said it was COMPLETE, but he did know at least up to the fact that the name was the key) and POSSIBLY flawed. He wasn't saying, "THIS IS WRONG BUT HERE'S MY THEORY!" he was saying, "this might not be on the mark, but let me tell you what I've come up with over the years."
It's a manner of humility and nothing more, man. You're right, they ordered the whole island destroyed before that. That makes it more obvious that he was right, since they obviously didn't want CP9 or ANYONE to hear Clover specifically, even though the Island was going to die (and obviously Clover too) finish his statement. Why not? Because he was wrong? Wtf? Ps, he said "as it may be", not "THIS IF FLAWED AND INCOMPLETE OMG."
He's just not an arrogant shit (like me for instance) who thinks that all of his opinions are 100% correct no matter what. Lots of educated people are like that.
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My original translation of 394 read:
@My:
Clover: Before I die… let me speak with the head of the world, the "Gorousei".
For a long time, Ohara, the holy land of archaology, has continued its research...
Clover: It's only halfway complete, but
I have formulated a hypothesis on the "100 Year Blank" and want to report it.However, looking at it again, I think I'm going to change it to:
@New:
Clover: Before I die… let me speak with the head of the world, the "Gorousei".
For a long time, Ohara, the holy land of archaology, has continued its research...
Clover: While it's halfway speculation,
I have formulated a hypothesis on the "100 Year Blank" and want to report it.夢半ばながら implies that Clover might be speculating a bit ("it's half in a dream", "I'm half dreaming", "it's part dreams"–meaning he's dreamed up half of it), not that his theory is flawed or incorrect.
Hope this clarifies things.
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Horay, thank you sir. Half of it was speculation, which was confirmed by the Gourosei's specific order to kill Clover individually off the spot. In other words, Clover had pieces of a puzzle from the Poneglyph and regular history, he speculated by putting those together without all the pieces.
Turns out, he was right. He gets killed before he can get off the most important piece of what he discovered.
Well that solves that, hopefully!
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I just did deny what Clover said, that's called humility. It's his theory which means he did believe it, don't be stupid. It's something he believed from his research, he was being humble and acknowledging that it was incomplete (I never said it was COMPLETE, but he did know at least up to the fact that the name was the key) and POSSIBLY flawed. He wasn't saying, "THIS IS WRONG BUT HERE'S MY THEORY!" he was saying, "this might not be on the mark, but let me tell you what I've come up with over the years."
**It wasn't complete. this is obvious. And tell me where it says he was being humble? the fact is he said it. They ONLY way for one to TRULY know the true history is to read the rio ponyglyph.
Of course it wasn't on the mark. It couldn't have had been. but like I said he had grasped the concept. and you had just agreed with me.
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It's a manner of humility and nothing more, man. You're right, they ordered the whole island destroyed before that. That makes it more obvious that he was right, since they obviously didn't want CP9 or ANYONE to hear Clover specifically, even though the Island was going to die (and obviously Clover too) finish his statement. Why not? Because he was wrong? Wtf? Ps, he said "as it may be", not "THIS IF FLAWED AND INCOMPLETE OMG."
Again you are saying he was being humble. I don't see why you can't accept a simple fact. It had been stated clerly as can be. Even the goursei emphasized the word theory.
He's just not an arrogant shit (like me for instance) who thinks that all of his opinions are 100% correct no matter what. Lots of educated people are like that.
**My point exactly….
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@Selphish: All I meant was that there were things about the history he wasn't aware of. That he didn't know everything. That there are many things about it he didn't discover that were imporatan. So on and so forth.
Both of your translations still say that he wasn't completley correct in every aspect. Either way some of it was speculation.**
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Simple fact? What the fuck?
Where is there anything that says he IS wrong? EVEN going off the original translation Stephen gave, it said "MAY" not "IS", learn English and stop being a retard.
The whole idea is, Clover had, let's say 70% (or even just 50%) of the puzzle. He used what he had to come up with a theory. This theory then turned out to be correct, the Gorosei's saying of "theory" was defensive, and this was obvious, and now you're just spewing bullshit.
PS, you're just as much an arrogant shit, but you're basing the idea that clover was wrong off of nothing. You're saying, "Clover was at wrong about things" even though there is no evidence that he was.
He was speculating about some of it, sure, but that doesn't make him wrong. Smart men are good at speculating, you know.
The gorousei, as I've said over and over, confirmed his theory by killing him without letting him finish even though, had they let him finish, he would have died anyway.
You're the one ignoring the obvious. It's possible that Clover was wrong about like one thing, but I doubt it, and there's no EVIDENCE that he was.
So to conclude, you're full of shit. (bold face and caps lock are fun)
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@Wikipedia:
In science, a body of descriptions of knowledge is usually only called a theory once it has a firm empirical basis, i.e., it
1. is consistent with pre-existing theory to the extent that the pre-existing theory was experimentally verified, though it will often show pre-existing theory to be wrong in an exact sense,
2. is supported by many strands of evidence rather than a single foundation, ensuring that it probably is a good approximation if not totally correct,
3. makes predictions that might someday be used to disprove the theory,
4. is tentative, correctable and dynamic, in allowing for changes to be made as new data is discovered, rather than asserting certainty, and
5. is the most parsimonious explanation, sparing in proposed entities or explanations, commonly referred to as passing Occam's Razor.Yes, a theory is able to be disproven, and it might even be entirely incorrect. However, it is supported by many strands of evidence rather than a single foundation, ensuring that it probably is a good approximation if not totally correct.
So far, Clover has proven to be credible and impecable in his word. We have no reason thusfar not to believe what he is saying.
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Gravity is a theory, for instance.
In other words, most theories are literally accepted as fact until proven false, because they are so emperically and observationally backed.
Robin will discover what Clover discovered, and then she will take it a step further. You don't know what's on the Rio Poneglyph, that could just be the very last bit, there is apparently still plenty that can be discovered without the rio poneglyph, through observation and inference and study, as demonstrated by Clover learning the name of the ancient civilization presumably without ol' rio.
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Simple fact? What the fuck?
Yes SIMPLE fact. If you even know the meaning of simple.
Where is there anything that says he IS wrong? EVEN going off the original translation Stephen gave, it said "MAY" not "IS", learn English and stop being a retard.
I never said he was wrong, just that his theory was by no means complete and there were things he left out. Things he didn't know of. Like I said he had grasped the concept, where did I sy he was wrong? Your the one that needs to learn to read, its not as hard as you think.
The whole idea is, Clover had, let's say 70% (or even just 50%) of the puzzle. He used what he had to come up with a theory. This theory then turned out to be correct, the Gorosei's saying of "theory" was defensive, and this was obvious, and now you're just spewing bullshit.
Again I tell you to read. I never said it was wrong. I did day he had grasped the concept.
PS, you're just as much an arrogant shit, but you're basing the idea that clover was wrong off of nothing. You're saying, "Clover was at wrong about things" even though there is no evidence that he was.
Again I NEVER said he was wrong. Your being an ass for no reason. You've been agreeing with me this whole time and fail to realize it. Your the arrogant shit.
He was speculating about some of it, sure, but that doesn't make him wrong. Smart men are good at speculating, you know.
Again Learn to read.
The gorousei, as I've said over and over, confirmed his theory by killing him without letting him finish even though, had they let him finish, he would have died anyway.
My point exactly. Because the name of the kingdom was where the goursei decided he was too dangerous to live. They knew he has learned oo much. but that doesn't mean he has learned all.
You're the one ignoring the obvious. It's possible that Clover was wrong about like one thing, but I doubt it, and there's no EVIDENCE that he was.
**In EVERY translation. There is something mentioned about speculation, flaws etc. this alone says there were things he didn't know. things he hadn't learned of.
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@ Selphish: es we don't. but I am 100% sure there are things he didn't know or were unsure about.**
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This of course means that your redacting your original view, which is, "Of course it wasn't on the mark. It couldn't have had been."
Right? Oh wait, you're retarded and now claiming the it is possible that he was 100% right instead of what I quoted above, but trying to save face. Congrats.
ps, I never once stated that he had learned all, read my first post again and drink some kind of amphetamine so that your brain can function correctly.
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If you have nothing better to do than argue until the next chapter comes out, then please stop posting. I understand that you both feel strongly about your positions, but your just using up server space by arguing like this. Instead, maybe you could get drunk-like me! and speculate on whether or not Nami was inspired by a character in 'Red Vertigo' (a porn film), or whether Jaguar D. Saul's name was inspired by Saul Hernandez, frontman for the Mexican rock band Jaguares.
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I'm having more fun than you know, and don't worry, the server can handle it. :)
I'd rather speculate about my place of origin, namely, was I born from a Kurt Vonnegut novel, or not?
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@_Meh_:
If you have nothing better to do than argue until the next chapter comes out, then please stop posting. I understand that you both feel strongly about your positions, but your just using up server space by arguing like this. Instead, maybe you could get drunk-like me! and speculate on whether or not Nami was inspired by a character in 'Red Vertigo' (a porn film), or whether Jaguar D. Saul's name was inspired by Saul Hernandez, frontman for the Mexican rock band Jaguares.
Or get drunk like me and figure out how im gonna buy OP action figures with what little i have left.
Its retarded to call people retards on an internet forum.
Im sleepy.:sleep:
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Its retarded to call people retards on an internet forum.
Im sleepy.:sleep:
I agree, which is why I never do that.
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How's that for distributed IQ?
Fuck you main queue!
I guess I'm just not as internet hardcore as the two of you.
My poetics go unnoticed, but I'll keep running from that bell of yours, Aesop.
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A truly entertaining exchange of words over yet another trivial argument.
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A truly entertaining exchange of words over yet another trivial argument.
things like this amuse me
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It's a hypothesis. The way Clover was proving it was by guaging the reaction of the gorousei. By that, I'd say he was dead-on.
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well at the point of giving the speech, Clover obviously couldn't be 100% on his hypothesis but after the reaction it gets from the Gorousei, it's pretty safe to assume that his hypothesis was correct.
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This of course means that your redacting your original view, which is, "Of course it wasn't on the mark. It couldn't have had been."
Right? Oh wait, you're retarded and now claiming the it is possible that he was 100% right instead of what I quoted above, but trying to save face. Congrats.
ps, I never once stated that he had learned all, read my first post again and drink some kind of amphetamine so that your brain can function correctly.
**Looking at some of your other posts I can see arguing with you will go nowhere.
Calling others names like this on an internet forum is, like others have said, retarted. I even said Clover was right, and that you were basiccly agreeing with me. and yet you still did what you did. I'm sorry to say that was just pathetic.
All I said was that he didn't completle his hypothesis. and there were things he didn't know of. I never said what he said was wrong.**
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From our beloved Octogon.
Of course it wasn't on the mark. It couldn't have had been. but like I said he had grasped the concept. and you had just agreed with me.
Both of your translations still say that he wasn't completley correct in every aspect.
So umm, how many more quotes of you saying his theory was flawed and couldn't have been 100% correct do I need to provide before you explode in contradiction? I could point out how you even contradict yourself with your opinion of insulting people online, but I'm too lazy.
Besides, man, you're the one who replied to my post saying that anyone who thought he was wrong had no basis for thinking so by posting a statement from Clover which you idiotically interpreted as a guarantee that his work was incomplete and flawed. So, you're full of shit as usual (your diaper is getting full).
I've been saying he's 100% correct until proven otherwise, and you're saying he just 'grasped the concept', learn the difference and stfu.
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From our beloved Octogon.
So umm, how many more quotes of you saying his theory was flawed and couldn't have been 100% correct do I need to provide before you explode in contradiction? I could point out how you even contradict yourself with your opinion of insulting people online, but I'm too lazy.
Besides, man, you're the one who replied to my post saying that anyone who thought he was wrong had no basis for thinking so by posting a statement from Clover which you idiotically interpreted as a guarantee that his work was incomplete and flawed. So, you're full of shit as usual (your diaper is getting full).
I've been saying he's 100% correct until proven otherwise, and you're saying he just 'grasped the concept', learn the difference and stfu.
**You do realize that he didn't finish writing his hypothesis don't you? He said so himself. I do believe he was correct. But there is no way every single thing he had said was exactly correct. this is what I mean by "grasped the concept"
For example the weapons could have had been a greater threat to the WG than he thinks. Perhaps the kingdom spread the ponyglyphs before the Alliance actually atacked.
I'm just going to end it here. It's use less to talk to someone who seems to want to stay ignorant.**
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hmm..let's try and get this sorted
in 394 Clover wants to talk to Gorousei about what he thinks he has found out about the lost 100 years. Now this is through research he has done with the other archeologists in Ohara. He can't be 100% certain that it is correct because he can only assume by what he has learnt in the past about the ancient texts and their meanings.
In 395, he talks to the Gorousei about these findings. Now, he can't know everything there is about the 100 years and the ancient Kingdom because he hasn't read all the poneglyphs in the world, not to mention the Rip Poneglyph that is the one that completes the story. what he says to them is most likely accurate because the Gorousei gives the order to shoot/ fire. Whatever. You see in one of the frames that one of the Gorousei members might not have liked doing this, which means that what he says must be true otherwise they wouldn't have had to give that order.
I don't believe the Gorousei would give the command to use the bsuter call if they didn't have confirmation on the knowledge the people of Ohara had.
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@Bad-Beat:
hmm..let's try and get this sorted
in 394 Clover wants to talk to Gorousei about what he thinks he has found out about the lost 100 years. Now this is through research he has done with the other archeologists in Ohara. He can't be 100% certain that it is correct because he can only assume by what he has learnt in the past about the ancient texts and their meanings.
In 395, he talks to the Gorousei about these findings. Now, he can't know everything there is about the 100 years and the ancient Kingdom because he hasn't read all the poneglyphs in the world, not to mention the Rip Poneglyph that is the one that completes the story. what he says to them is most likely accurate because the Gorousei gives the order to shoot/ fire. Whatever. You see in one of the frames that one of the Gorousei members might not have liked doing this, which means that what he says must be true otherwise they wouldn't have had to give that order.
I don't believe the Gorousei would give the command to use the bsuter call if they didn't have confirmation on the knowledge the people of Ohara had.
Exactly, but the fact that they didn't give the command to shoot until he was about to say the kingdoms name is important as well. This probaley means that what clover said isn't what really upsets the gouresi. I don't think the goursei are scared that the people will know that there was a kingdom before them. but there is something else. I'm not sure what thogh.
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I don´t understand what this entire fuzz is about. Clover apparently hit the bullseye with an incomplete theory.
If he wouldn´t have hit a vital spot the Gorousei wouldn´t have killed him and if his theory was complete then Robin wouldn´t have any mystery left to reveal.
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I don´t understand what this entire fuzz is about. Clover apparently hit the bullseye with an incomplete theory.
If he wouldn´t have hit a vital spot the Gorousei wouldn´t have killed him and if his theory was complete then Robin wouldn´t have any mystery left to reveal.
My point exactly and what I've been telling theinvisibleworm this whole time.
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Yeah I think it's obvious he hit an important part in his hypothesis that caused Gorousei to kill him, but there's no way Clover would know everything about the lost 100 years and other things.
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I don´t understand what this entire fuzz is about. Clover apparently hit the bullseye with an incomplete theory.
If he wouldn´t have hit a vital spot the Gorousei wouldn´t have killed him and if his theory was complete then Robin wouldn´t have any mystery left to reveal.
Really all of this only means one thing. We need the next chapter as soon as posible. XD
Kinai.
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Speaking of which, does the next chapter come out this week, or next?
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I think it's the next week. T_T
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My position:
There's no evidence at all that Clover was shitting himself with his life's work, and there's tons of evidence that he was right on the mark (the destruction of his entire Island).
(that is to say that I believe Clover didn't just grasp the concept, but rather, he figured everything out up to the fact that the name of the ancient civilization is key to all 100% accurately, not just conceptually, that he hit Ivotas's proverbial bullseye with his theory and that this was confirmed by the Gourosei's reactions)Octogon's position before he started flip-flopping with revisionism:
"The name migt be the key. But there are holes and flaws. whether you like it or not."
or
"Of course it wasn't on the mark. It couldn't have had been. but like I said he had grasped the concept."
(since he likes to ignore his own statements I'm making sure to post ones from two of his posts, I made sure to boldface the important parts since he lacks the reading comprehension to grasp his own writing)Ivotas's position:
"I don´t understand what this entire fuzz is about. Clover apparently hit the bullseye with an incomplete theory."So explain again how you were telling me what Ivotas just said, instead of it being me saying what Ivotas said? Are you really this big of a liar? You said he got the "concept" whereas I said he hit the bullseye (to use Ivotas's words), that is to say, that he was 100% correct with his theory.
My original point was that while there was still plenty more to the mystery, every part of the mystery that Clover addressed in his theory, he addressed 100% correctly. I said that anyone who disagreed with that was retarded, then you went and argued with me.
You know, I don't really like to lose arguments, but clearly your more averse to it than even me, since you're willing to flat out lie just to save face.
Come off your high horse, Octogon, you're really just a dumbass liar with a penchant for self-righteous arrogance that even makes me look away in disgust.
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Excuse me…I don't mean to be rude about anything but could you please stop addressing anyone or everyone a "RETARD", "STUPID" or whatever else you have put in. I find it regardless of whether you are right or wrong or the other party is right or wrong, just cool it with the name calling. Cos, I definitely dun see anyone else calling others that.
Its just a thread...don't have to get all offensive. Have fun.
Thank you
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I guess I'm the first then, and I'll do it whenever necessary. It's just a thread, no need to get all offended, right?
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Nah (nothing taken)…it just doesn't seem that nice, thats all... :)
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Ths week have no op,is it?
Well,my first note is this one.
My english is so poor,forgive me. -
Actually zhaoye615, I think that we will have an OP raw this week, but we didn't have one last week. It should show up on this site on thursday or friday, but if you live in Japan I imagine you can get it sooner.
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nay. we ain't havin' one this week. last week's chapter (395) leaked out early. that one was supposed to come out this week, so it will be another week wait from now before we get another one.
the schedule was supposed to be something like
394 – week off -- 395 -- week off -- 396
but instead 395 leaked out during the first week off, so now it has become:
394 -- 395 -- week off -- week off -- 396
we're currently in transition from the first week off to the second week off. patience, young padawans.
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You never know though, 396 itself may leak early…
(Not promising anything but it could happen !)
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Which would be lovely to be sure but unfortunately I can't recall a Holiday Season where that occurred. Either way I'm off the early releases here for a while. Back to picking up newstand JUMPs on Monday morning for the next few weeks!
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Shounen Jump comes out on Mondays?
I had absolutely no idea! :O
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You never know though, 396 itself may leak early…
(Not promising anything but it could happen !)
I'd hope so, but I don't think it'll leak any earlier than usual. Jump's back to the regular Monday sale date, starting with issue #8. So it'll probably be back to leaking onto the net on Thursday or Friday (19/20th).
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Next time I'll try and avoid reading leaked episodes just so I don't have to wait 3 weeks for a new chapter again :laugh:
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I guess I'm the first then, and I'll do it whenever necessary. It's just a thread, no need to get all offended, right?
Actually that will get you banned, so behave.:glare:
Shounen Jump comes out on Mondays?
I had absolutely no idea! :O
yeah and we get the scans even before it's out
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I guess I'm the first then, and I'll do it whenever necessary. It's just a thread, no need to get all offended, right?
Actually, when a person starts the childish name calling, thats when i choose to ignore any and all posts made by him/her.
You have made intelligent posts before this, what brought about the immaturity i wonder <_<with a penchant for self-righteous arrogance that even makes me look away in disgust.
This could also be considered a hypocrytical statement by some.
Not saying you are, but cool off a bit.
Name calling in no way helps in getting you'r point across. -
@omae:
Which would be lovely to be sure but unfortunately I can't recall a Holiday Season where that occurred. Either way I'm off the early releases here for a while. Back to picking up newstand JUMPs on Monday morning for the next few weeks!
Do you live in Japan? I was just wondering