there are so many people fighting for "worst character" in this series it hurts to think about it
time to take a reborn break.
there are so many people fighting for "worst character" in this series it hurts to think about it
time to take a reborn break.
Enma doesn't need to be saved, he needs to be put out of his misery. (death)
Chapter's out on Manga Stream.
Would it kill the author to have Chrome do anything? (I doubt that needs to be spoiler-tagged; since her introduction, she hasn't done anything but rely on Mukuro to show up)
I loved this chapter simply for the few pages we got of Mukuro. My favorite character has entered the fray, and hopefully we'll see him use his vongola gear within the next chapter or two~
I have heard that Amano is safe but who knows when the next chapter will be out due to the earthquake an honestly I don't care if a chapter comes out.
LoL silenced raged.
Would it kill the author to have Chrome do anything? (I doubt that needs to be spoiler-tagged; since her introduction, she hasn't done anything but rely on Mukuro to show up)
Chrome is basically just Mukuro's vessel and Amano's outlet for creepy fetishes (bondage this chapter, Mammon/Viper's tentacles, mind control and master/slave recently… apparently creepy organless shit from time to time...).
And is Amano trying to make Enma and Tsuna into Sasuke and Naruto? Incompetent Tsuna is bad enough, but now we have crazy creepy murderer Enma who has to be "saved"... ugh... The moment Tsuna says he's dieing with Enma, I'm calling shenanigans.
Tsuna = Naruto
Enma = Sasuke
Daemon = Madara
Gokudera = Hinata
Chrome = Tenten
I have to agree with Silence's statement that there are too many characters competing for "worst" in this manga. It's like Amano tries not to develop her characters. That was fine up through Varia, but afterward it quickly got annoying, especially with, you know, the main protagonist who's still a whiny pathetic bitch...
It's not quite as bad as Naruto and Sasuke - at least Tsuna and Enma were friends before all of this, instead of being rivals who spontaneously were considered lifelong best friends midway through the story with only a little build-up.
What this series really needs is backstorys. I feel like I really don't know the character outside of what they fight with an what there interests and quirks are.
What this series really needs is backstorys. I feel like I really don't know the character outside of what they fight with an what there interests and quirks are.
Only Gokudera and Tsuna have had any really sort of Backstory. Ryohei was said to have been in a fight when he was young which caused his scar and she made him promise not to fight again (which he obviously broke), we don't know much about Yamamoto's past but we do know his dad was an Assassin at one time, and it's hinted it was for the Vongola. We know Mukuro's backstory and Chrome's, but next to nothing about Hibari. Lambo's too young to have a backstory.
As for the Arcobaleno, we actually get part of their back story from the Anime Arcobaleno arc. Reborn was actually an unnamed Hitman for Vongola (the only one to address him as an Adult is Luce, and she calls him Mr. Hitman). After the incident that changed them into infants, Reborn went on a journey for a year because he was so distraught at being a newborn, but eventually came to accept his new (eternal) body. He returned and had Shamal erase his memories, and gave himself the name "Reborn" to signify him wiping his past.
We know Colonello was a member of the Comsubin, the Italin Frogmen Marine forces, and that Lal Mirch was his trainer and superior. We know Luce was the head of the Giglio Nero prior and up to the Arcobaleno Incident, and was pregnant with Aria up until mere days before the event took place. It's possible, even, that Aria's birth was what started the chain of events, but we don't know that for sure.
We know very little about the other Arcobaleno. Skull was a stuntman before he became an Arcobaleno, and he mentions in one Anime episode he has bad memories of Kokuyo Land, which indicates during his stuntman career he probably performed a lot there. He's also known as "Immortal Skull", and can actually buff up to the point of invulnerability if threatened; Verde was an independent Scientist, either an outside contractor or part of an unknown Mafia family; Viper was a member of Varia and just as obsessed with money as an adult; the Anime episode actually shows him watching a stock ticker on a smart phone during their meeting just prior to the Arcobaleno Incident; Fon was a Champion Martial Artist and may or may not be associated with the Triad. He is a master of Gyoza Kempo and also Red Lotus Kempo (he's seen using it in the Anime). He was the master of I-Pin.
That's really all we know.
sigh isn't a reborn thread with out constant complaints from reborn fans.
sigh isn't a reborn thread with out constant complaints from reborn fans.
We're having a DISCUSSION, if you don't mind, in the Reborn! DISCUSSION thread. Bet you wouldn't have something to say if it was the Naruto or Bleach thread.
And also?
It sure is a step better than it was during the Future Arc man, suck it up.
Stop in randomly to see if this series has picked up since I dropped it.
Universal shitting on series for the reasons that I dropped it.
Opinions confirmed. Thanks for saving me the time, guys.
We're having a DISCUSSION, if you don't mind, in the Reborn! DISCUSSION thread. Bet you wouldn't have something to say if it was the Naruto or Bleach thread.
And also?
It sure is a step better than it was during the Future Arc man, suck it up.
It doesn't seem like a discussion to me as opposed to a couple of people just complaining. I don't watch/read bleach or naruto. So of course I'd have nothing to say in those threads.
It doesn't seem like a discussion to me as opposed to a couple of people just complaining. I don't watch/read bleach or naruto. So of course I'd have nothing to say in those threads.
Seems like you complaining to me. :V
@Fire Fist:
Only Gokudera and Tsuna have had any really sort of Backstory. Ryohei was said to have been in a fight when he was young which caused his scar and she made him promise not to fight again (which he obviously broke), we don't know much about Yamamoto's past but we do know his dad was an Assassin at one time, and it's hinted it was for the Vongola. We know Mukuro's backstory and Chrome's, but next to nothing about Hibari. Lambo's too young to have a backstory.
As for the Arcobaleno, we actually get part of their back story from the Anime Arcobaleno arc. Reborn was actually an unnamed Hitman for Vongola (the only one to address him as an Adult is Luce, and she calls him Mr. Hitman). After the incident that changed them into infants, Reborn went on a journey for a year because he was so distraught at being a newborn, but eventually came to accept his new (eternal) body. He returned and had Shamal erase his memories, and gave himself the name "Reborn" to signify him wiping his past.
We know Colonello was a member of the Comsubin, the Italin Frogmen Marine forces, and that Lal Mirch was his trainer and superior. We know Luce was the head of the Giglio Nero prior and up to the Arcobaleno Incident, and was pregnant with Aria up until mere days before the event took place. It's possible, even, that Aria's birth was what started the chain of events, but we don't know that for sure.
We know very little about the other Arcobaleno. Skull was a stuntman before he became an Arcobaleno, and he mentions in one Anime episode he has bad memories of Kokuyo Land, which indicates during his stuntman career he probably performed a lot there. He's also known as "Immortal Skull", and can actually buff up to the point of invulnerability if threatened; Verde was an independent Scientist, either an outside contractor or part of an unknown Mafia family; Viper was a member of Varia and just as obsessed with money as an adult; the Anime episode actually shows him watching a stock ticker on a smart phone during their meeting just prior to the Arcobaleno Incident; Fon was a Champion Martial Artist and may or may not be associated with the Triad. He is a master of Gyoza Kempo and also Red Lotus Kempo (he's seen using it in the Anime). He was the master of I-Pin.
That's really all we know.
Thanks for the info on the Arcobaleno since I wasn't going to watch the anime anytime soon.
It doesn't seem like a discussion to me as opposed to a couple of people just complaining. I don't watch/read bleach or naruto. So of course I'd have nothing to say in those threads.
complaining and talking about details that need improvement and how they could be improved is definitely a discussion, not every thing needs to be positive for people to talk about it
Pics
!
Hotlinking is not permitted young man. :I
Never me good sir :ninja:
Wait, they're gonna fight already? I feel like it's so soon… But that's probably because I don't read this for a few weeks and then everything seems so much faster.
Chapter's out at mangastream.
That was a pretty good chapter. I was disappointed that Mukuro and Spade didn't fight this chapter, however since Spade is the main villain of this arc I'm okay with Mukuro getting the final boss fight. I just realllllllllly wanna see his vongola gear (mostly for cosplay purposes admittedly, but I just really wanna see the outfit, accessory that his gear is, and see what it's main ability is). I liked the action this chapter had to offer, and I can't wait to see Tsuna's vongola gear finally in action.
So yeah, good chapter this week.
On p7, I think the lion pokemon went into a state of euphoria, upon meeting enma, which turned him cockeyed. Anyway, was an alright chapter
Ok, so it was a decent chapter. Got the ball rolling on the Enma fight, Tsuna wasn't a blabbering idiot because Enma was his friend so he was more bearable than usual even if Enma needs to go jump off a cliff after these recent chapters… But omg i couldnt tell those were black holes without Reborn's superb insight (/sarcasm).
Also how are things with the gravity of a star/black hole not sucking in the surroundings and only affecting Tsuna? Flame magic I guess, but really? I mean BB has an attack called "Black Hole" but it isn't literally making one and typically his gravity either pulls in everything (the town and other large scale situations) or we see it aimed at an enemy (Ace, guards, etc) whereas Enma just threw out random hazards that magically only suck in Tsuna (and Nattsu?). Basically suspension of disbelief with strong gravity powers works when it's directed at an object OR sucks in everything (imo at least) and Enma doesn't seem to be doing either, just a hazard blockade of black holes that aren't sucking the Reborn world into nothingness. At least make the sideliners narrating the whole damn fight have to contend with the gravity to make it more believable. Enma would see them all as enemies in his psycho state, so I don't buy "Enma can target the gravity" as an excuse for not, at least, doing that much.
Idk maybe that gravity rant is just me, but that's the main thing that stuck out in an otherwise decent chapter.
I kinda just want to skip this whole Enma fight. So lame and thinking about how things got here it still seems a bit forced.
Got me wanting (which I guess it's suppose to) to see Muroku and Daemon much more instead.
Hi, I was thinking about reading Reborn but now I hear from some people that it's really bad. I would just like to know what it is that makes it so bad to some people because I honestly thought it looked good. I've only read one chapter which was meh but I've learned not to judge a long-running series by its first chapter.
I'll admit that the premise is a little ridiculous but I don't mind since it's a Shonen battle manga. I just want to know why it's so bad to some people. Some people like Hiroy even say that it's worse than Bleach and I actually find that hard to believe.
If anyone wants to defend the series and list positive qualities be my guest as well.
@Kareem:
Hi, I was thinking about reading Reborn but now I hear from some people that it's really bad. I would just like to know what it is that makes it so bad to some people because I honestly thought it looked good. I've only read one chapter which was meh but I've learned not to judge a long-running series by its first chapter.
I'll admit that the premise is a little ridiculous but I don't mind since it's a Shonen battle manga. I just want to know why it's so bad to some people. Some people like Hiroy even say that it's worse than Bleach and I actually find that hard to believe.
If anyone wants to defend the series and list positive qualities be my guest as well.
A sometimes unlikeable protagonist, has it's very own version of Gerard, Aizen and each arc degrades into a tournament arc. Quite liked the story at the beginning but since the future arc the quality of the manga has been floundering, although the art has consistently been good.
With the black hole thing, it might just be sucking in enemies with active dying will flames, unless some of the other vongolas are active
Still probably not worse than Bleach. I might read it just because I seem to be the one of the few manga readers who hasn't and I'd like to comment on it. But I should probably focus on better series.
One thing I've noticed about manga is that there are great manga like One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist, Berserk and crappy manga like Bleach, Fairy Tail and Naruto Part 2. It's just the bad stuff seems to be just as likely to become popular if not more so.
That's why people who are naive about manga say that it always turns bad at some point, because they only read the popular stuff.
@Kareem:
Still probably not worse than Bleach. I might read it just because I seem to be the one of the few manga readers who hasn't and I'd like to comment on it. But I should probably focus on better series.
One thing I've noticed about manga is that there are great manga like One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist, Berserk and crappy manga like Bleach, Fairy Tail and Naruto Part 2. It's just the bad stuff seems to be just as likely to become popular if not more so.
That's why people who are naive about manga say that it always turns bad at some point, because they only read the popular stuff.
It's not worse than bleach but the story doesn't seem like it's going anywhere. Each arc has the basic formula of power up, then tournament. I started Reborn ages ago and I'm just reading it for continuation's sake, same with Bleach and Naruto. I wouldn't recommend picking up the series and reading it from scratch, there are better manga to read, just have a look through the recommendations thread.
I don't quite get the last sentence of your post.
@Kareem:
Still probably not worse than Bleach. I might read it just because I seem to be the one of the few manga readers who hasn't and I'd like to comment on it. But I should probably focus on better series.
One thing I've noticed about manga is that there are great manga like One Piece, Fullmetal Alchemist, Berserk and crappy manga like Bleach, Fairy Tail and Naruto Part 2. It's just the bad stuff seems to be just as likely to become popular if not more so.
That's why people who are naive about manga say that it always turns bad at some point, because they only read the popular stuff.
Reborn is an abomination. I've read a LOT of manga of all kinds, and even in terrible ones I can find something to enjoy. But the only way I think Reborn could be worse is if it was a harem manga with loli pantyshots. Hibari and Yamamoto are the only redeeming features of this manga.
Other bad manga, even Naruto (usually), take the time to set up and establish the absolute bare bones of the fighting system. In One Piece, you'll see Devil Fruits. You know well what their strengths and weaknesses are, or at least that there's a power out there somewhere to counter it. You know what to expect from the three types of Devil Fruits. In Naruto, there's chakra, 5 elements, and ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu, each with their own checks and balances to each other. In Hunter X Hunter, you have what is probably the best chakra system in all of shounen, in the form of Nen, which is extremely creative, extremely balanced, extremely complicated but at the same time makes perfect sense. There is a world, and when things happen in that world, there's at least some level of consistency within that world.
I'm not sure whether I would agree that Reborn is worse than Bleach, but I would probably agree that it's at least as bad. Having started out as a gag manga for the first 60 chapters, Reborn went the route of becoming a battle manga, but unlike in all the other shonen series - it didn't have the benefit of all those chapters of establishment while you're still learning about the world. It just shoehorned things in. In many ways, it introduces plot points like Naruto part 2 does. Outta the fucking blue.
So as a series, it lacks a lot of very basic building blocks and when you look at it, you see a lot of holes.
What's worse, because the whole fighting system is sort of winged, battles become less about who fights the smartest or uses their ability to the utmost, but a complete writing crapshoot. The strongest characters will (literally) run into a brick wall (literally) and lose battles with no build-up. A fight could last 2 chapters or 6, and then a character (usually one of the protagonists) will inexplicably take a dive. In Naruto, you know shit is getting real when Naruto goes Kyuubi. Gear 2 means it's on, with Luffy. But in Reborn, a character using his latest power-up (and there's one at least every arc) will lose just as easily as if he hadn't at all - it's frustrating, and disjointed - and not at all unlike the war arc in Bleach.
As a battle manga, it fails completely. Sadly, it isn't funny either: its concept of humor consisting of an [extremely annoying] baby making fart and poop jokes.
The writing is just really bad. Unavoidably. It's not as bad as, say, Air Gear, but it wants to be. You can count the fights that have included more than 3 participants on one hand, but rarely are characters really indisposed, so you'll have an entire cast standing around providing extremely basic exposition for every fight and hammering you over the head with symbolism over and over and over again. Reborn! has no concept of "Show, Don't Tell," and so it is consistently unconvincing. Like remember how in Bleach, Kubo made a point of having Aizen predict everything down to what someone had for breakfast that morning? Know how it got to the point where plausible deniability went soaring out the window and no matter what was being written, you just couldn't believe it was being shilled as the truth because it was just too absurd? It's like that - only all day every day here in Reborn country.
Characters say, "Gokudera-kun is so reliable desu" while your mind is shouting "bullshit!" because the character has literally won 2 fights and lost or pulled a draw in something in the neighborhood of 15 (not kidding). You may say to yourself "well it's good that the good guys lose sometimes, that doesn't happen often in other manga" but not so here, because even though more than half of the main cast is terrible 90% of the time, contrived plot twists and limp-dick writing always lead to the good guys winning and rainbows and sunny skies and fart jokes.
Characters don't develop, Tsuna is probably the worst shonen protagonist I've ever read, and I've read a lot. He's everything that was ever conceivably bad about Usopp, whiny, and so constantly surprised you might think he was wandering through life on LSD.
All this may seem a bit extreme to you. Maybe it is, idk. But I really haven't even broken it down yet. I haven't even TALKED about the absolutely random pokemon battles involving genjutsu sea slugs that were added to give "spice" to the plot. I haven't even TALKED about the Time Travel Ten Years Into the Future arc.
If anything, my vehemence is a desperate plea for you to listen to the hyperbole for once, listen to the people who are trying to spare you the pain, just find a different mark, just find a different quarry.
This manga aspires to do interesting things but bungles them all, resulting in a shounen where everything is half-assed and the other half is just ass.
Stay away.
Ok I get the idea thanks for the heads up. I just wanted a detailed list of what is wrong with Reborn the same way people have made detailed lists of the flaws of Naruto, Bleach and Fairy Tail. I though Reborn looked fun from the images and anime openings I saw but I suppose to an extreme anime/manga newcomer Bleach would look good if you knew nothing of the story and just saw the images and openings.
What I meant by my last comment of my last post was that some people look at Naruto, Bleach and other popular manga that suck or go downhill and think that that's the best manga has to offer. It's just a shame that most of the popular manga besides One Piece suck and a lot of really good manga like Toriko, Bakuman, Soul Eater and a few others aren't that popular.
I wonder if I should even say anything. shrugs. I love how you don't mention the dying will flames at all in your breakdown of battle system. Good job it's also funny how you can't find anything to like about the manga buttttttttttttt you're able to like Hibari and Yammamoto. shrugs. IDK why I come here expecting not to see this shit.
@Kareem:
Ok I get the idea thanks for the heads up. I just wanted a detailed list of what is wrong with Reborn the same way people have made detailed lists of the flaws of Naruto, Bleach and Fairy Tail. I though Reborn looked fun from the images and anime openings I saw but I suppose to an extreme anime/manga newcomer Bleach would look good if you knew nothing of the story and just saw the images and openings.
What I meant by my last comment of my last post was that some people look at Naruto, Bleach and other popular manga that suck or go downhill and think that that's the best manga has to offer. It's just a shame that most of the popular manga besides One Piece suck and a lot of really good manga like Toriko, Bakuman, Soul Eater and a few others aren't that popular.
They stay popular because their respective fanbases don't want to admit that their favourite manga has turned into a pile a crap in terms of quality. Then gullible people get swallowed in by fantards spouting how 'awesome' their manga is. That's just the way it is, and will be until the manga's end. You'll still get people defending crap like that because they 'relate to it, or have feelings of nostalgia when looking back on something that was decent in the past.
I wonder if I should even say anything. shrugs. I love how you don't mention the dying will flames at all in your breakdown of battle system. Good job it's also funny how you can't find anything to like about the manga buttttttttttttt you're able to like Hibari and Yammamoto. shrugs. IDK why I come here expecting not to see this shit.
Legendary, me boyo,
you don't want me to mention the dying will flames.
and anyway, what i said a few pages back is really all that you need to hear:
And yet, the whole Flame system is one great big convoluted mess of attributes and elements which don't really matter or don't have clear counters and was never really well explained at all.
I do not see that snippet in your post I looked over it about 5 times I still don't see it now. I may be going crazy.
Reborn is an abomination. I've read a LOT of manga of all kinds, and even in terrible ones I can find something to enjoy. But the only way I think Reborn could be worse is if it was a harem manga with loli pantyshots. Hibari and Yamamoto are the only redeeming features of this manga.
Other bad manga, even Naruto (usually), take the time to set up and establish the absolute bare bones of the fighting system. In One Piece, you'll see Devil Fruits. You know well what their strengths and weaknesses are, or at least that there's a power out there somewhere to counter it. You know what to expect from the three types of Devil Fruits. In Naruto, there's chakra, 5 elements, and ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu, each with their own checks and balances to each other. In Hunter X Hunter, you have what is probably the best chakra system in all of shounen, in the form of Nen, which is extremely creative, extremely balanced, extremely complicated but at the same time makes perfect sense. There is a world, and when things happen in that world, there's at least some level of consistency within that world.
I'm not sure whether I would agree that Reborn is worse than Bleach, but I would probably agree that it's at least as bad. Having started out as a gag manga for the first 60 chapters, Reborn went the route of becoming a battle manga, but unlike in all the other shonen series - it didn't have the benefit of all those chapters of establishment while you're still learning about the world. It just shoehorned things in. In many ways, it introduces plot points like Naruto part 2 does. Outta the fucking blue.
So as a series, it lacks a lot of very basic building blocks and when you look at it, you see a lot of holes.
What's worse, because the whole fighting system is sort of winged, battles become less about who fights the smartest or uses their ability to the utmost, but a complete writing crapshoot. The strongest characters will (literally) run into a brick wall (literally) and lose battles with no build-up. A fight could last 2 chapters or 6, and then a character (usually one of the protagonists) will inexplicably take a dive. In Naruto, you know shit is getting real when Naruto goes Kyuubi. Gear 2 means it's on, with Luffy. But in Reborn, a character using his latest power-up (and there's one at least every arc) will lose just as easily as if he hadn't at all - it's frustrating, and disjointed - and not at all unlike the war arc in Bleach.
As a battle manga, it fails completely. Sadly, it isn't funny either: its concept of humor consisting of an [extremely annoying] baby making fart and poop jokes.
The writing is just really bad. Unavoidably. It's not as bad as, say, Air Gear, but it wants to be. You can count the fights that have included more than 3 participants on one hand, but rarely are characters really indisposed, so you'll have an entire cast standing around providing extremely basic exposition for every fight and hammering you over the head with symbolism over and over and over again. Reborn! has no concept of "Show, Don't Tell," and so it is consistently unconvincing. Like remember how in Bleach, Kubo made a point of having Aizen predict everything down to what someone had for breakfast that morning? Know how it got to the point where plausible deniability went soaring out the window and no matter what was being written, you just couldn't believe it was being shilled as the truth because it was just too absurd? It's like that - only all day every day here in Reborn country.
Characters say, "Gokudera-kun is so reliable desu" while your mind is shouting "bullshit!" because the character has literally won 2 fights and lost or pulled a draw in something in the neighborhood of 15 (not kidding). You may say to yourself "well it's good that the good guys lose sometimes, that doesn't happen often in other manga" but not so here, because even though more than half of the main cast is terrible 90% of the time, contrived plot twists and limp-dick writing always lead to the good guys winning and rainbows and sunny skies and fart jokes.
Characters don't develop, Tsuna is probably the worst shonen protagonist I've ever read, and I've read a lot. He's everything that was ever conceivably bad about Usopp, whiny, and so constantly surprised you might think he was wandering through life on LSD.
All this may seem a bit extreme to you. Maybe it is, idk. But I really haven't even broken it down yet. I haven't even TALKED about the absolutely random pokemon battles involving genjutsu sea slugs that were added to give "spice" to the plot. I haven't even TALKED about the Time Travel Ten Years Into the Future arc.
If anything, my vehemence is a desperate plea for you to listen to the hyperbole for once, listen to the people who are trying to spare you the pain, just find a different mark, just find a different quarry.
This manga aspires to do interesting things but bungles them all, resulting in a shounen where everything is half-assed and the other half is just ass.
Stay away.
PREACH!!
(that rant was awesome)
even though i'm a fan of this series, I can still agree with these flaws.
I do not see that snippet in your post I looked over it about 5 times I still don't see it now. I may be going crazy.
what i said a few pages back is really all that you need to hear:
what i said a few pages back
a few pages back
A little crazy. .
Just out of curiosity Silence, how do you feel about Mukuro? I'm kinda in the same boat about only reading it to see what happens with certain characters, but I'm just a hell of a lot more interested in his story than Hibari's or Yamamoto's, lol (not that I don't like both of them too). So it's just me but I think he's a redeeming character personally. Now Chrome is obviously a different story…
Reborn is an abomination. I've read a LOT of manga of all kinds, and even in terrible ones I can find something to enjoy. But the only way I think Reborn could be worse is if it was a harem manga with loli pantyshots. Hibari and Yamamoto are the only redeeming features of this manga.
Other bad manga, even Naruto (usually), take the time to set up and establish the absolute bare bones of the fighting system. In One Piece, you'll see Devil Fruits. You know well what their strengths and weaknesses are, or at least that there's a power out there somewhere to counter it. You know what to expect from the three types of Devil Fruits. In Naruto, there's chakra, 5 elements, and ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu, each with their own checks and balances to each other. In Hunter X Hunter, you have what is probably the best chakra system in all of shounen, in the form of Nen, which is extremely creative, extremely balanced, extremely complicated but at the same time makes perfect sense. There is a world, and when things happen in that world, there's at least some level of consistency within that world.
I'm not sure whether I would agree that Reborn is worse than Bleach, but I would probably agree that it's at least as bad. Having started out as a gag manga for the first 60 chapters, Reborn went the route of becoming a battle manga, but unlike in all the other shonen series - it didn't have the benefit of all those chapters of establishment while you're still learning about the world. It just shoehorned things in. In many ways, it introduces plot points like Naruto part 2 does. Outta the fucking blue.
So as a series, it lacks a lot of very basic building blocks and when you look at it, you see a lot of holes.
What's worse, because the whole fighting system is sort of winged, battles become less about who fights the smartest or uses their ability to the utmost, but a complete writing crapshoot. The strongest characters will (literally) run into a brick wall (literally) and lose battles with no build-up. A fight could last 2 chapters or 6, and then a character (usually one of the protagonists) will inexplicably take a dive. In Naruto, you know shit is getting real when Naruto goes Kyuubi. Gear 2 means it's on, with Luffy. But in Reborn, a character using his latest power-up (and there's one at least every arc) will lose just as easily as if he hadn't at all - it's frustrating, and disjointed - and not at all unlike the war arc in Bleach.
As a battle manga, it fails completely. Sadly, it isn't funny either: its concept of humor consisting of an [extremely annoying] baby making fart and poop jokes.
The writing is just really bad. Unavoidably. It's not as bad as, say, Air Gear, but it wants to be. You can count the fights that have included more than 3 participants on one hand, but rarely are characters really indisposed, so you'll have an entire cast standing around providing extremely basic exposition for every fight and hammering you over the head with symbolism over and over and over again. Reborn! has no concept of "Show, Don't Tell," and so it is consistently unconvincing. Like remember how in Bleach, Kubo made a point of having Aizen predict everything down to what someone had for breakfast that morning? Know how it got to the point where plausible deniability went soaring out the window and no matter what was being written, you just couldn't believe it was being shilled as the truth because it was just too absurd? It's like that - only all day every day here in Reborn country.
Characters say, "Gokudera-kun is so reliable desu" while your mind is shouting "bullshit!" because the character has literally won 2 fights and lost or pulled a draw in something in the neighborhood of 15 (not kidding). You may say to yourself "well it's good that the good guys lose sometimes, that doesn't happen often in other manga" but not so here, because even though more than half of the main cast is terrible 90% of the time, contrived plot twists and limp-dick writing always lead to the good guys winning and rainbows and sunny skies and fart jokes.
Characters don't develop, Tsuna is probably the worst shonen protagonist I've ever read, and I've read a lot. He's everything that was ever conceivably bad about Usopp, whiny, and so constantly surprised you might think he was wandering through life on LSD.
All this may seem a bit extreme to you. Maybe it is, idk. But I really haven't even broken it down yet. I haven't even TALKED about the absolutely random pokemon battles involving genjutsu sea slugs that were added to give "spice" to the plot. I haven't even TALKED about the Time Travel Ten Years Into the Future arc.
If anything, my vehemence is a desperate plea for you to listen to the hyperbole for once, listen to the people who are trying to spare you the pain, just find a different mark, just find a different quarry.
This manga aspires to do interesting things but bungles them all, resulting in a shounen where everything is half-assed and the other half is just ass.
Stay away.
Totally deserves three.
Anyway Kareem if you want a great shonen that kicks the living fuck out of Reborn (as well as Naruto, Bleach and Fairy Tail though that isn't really hard) here's several.
Mahou Sensei Negima (yes you guys all knew it was coming): Really hard series to get into with lots of fan-service of 14 year old girls and a terrible beginning but the pay-off is worth it because by chapter 40 it detonates in quality and is now one of the best shonen around which in terms of story, art skills, combat, characterization, world-building etc. can go toe to toe with One Piece any day. Oh and it's totally better than Fairy Fail (like Heaven and Marianas trench level difference).
History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi: Has quite a simple plot but great art with insanely good perspectives and dynamics, great characterisation, great great fights and one of the most well-balanced, well handled power ranking system I have ever seen in a shonen. Hasn't quite reached the high it has in the Fortuna arc but hasn't reached any lows either but is consistently awesome.
Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro: Starts as a grisly mystery manga but turns to shonen half way through (around chapter 100). Highly original manga with very gorey, very freaky yet very fascinating and captivating imagery and symbolism, great plot which gives totally new interesting perspectives on situations, very detailed world-building and oh the main character is the most pimpin' awesome protagonist ever. It's also original because he's a super-mega top tier strong demon though he gets weaker as the series progresses instead of stronger because of what the human world does to him.
Lucifer and Biscuit Hammer: Flawless series which kinda suffers from never really expanding its scope but nevertheless it is a self-contained piece of incredible story-telling, world-building and heart-warming characterisation.
There those are my top 2-5 (I assume you've read One Piece). That'll give you something to chew on for a while. Don't waste your time reading over-rated dreck. Inject a little quality into your reading list.
Edit: See you've gotten into Negima dude. Good on you. Have fun with it:)
Find it strange that they show us Tsuna's gear before mukoro's one… well this fight will be intersting.. glad tsuna did not hesitate to attack Enma i was scare we were going to have 3 chapter of tsuna trying to convince enma without fighting back
Just out of curiosity Silence, how do you feel about Mukuro? I'm kinda in the same boat about only reading it to see what happens with certain characters, but I'm just a hell of a lot more interested in his story than Hibari's or Yamamoto's, lol (not that I don't like both of them too). So it's just me but I think he's a redeeming character personally. Now Chrome is obviously a different story…
How do I feel about Mukuro.
You know, the most honest answer is I don't really know? lol
I mean, naturally he's one of the better villains this series has had, and when he shows up he always makes an impact - almost always for the better. Considering his potential to be OP, it is probably in theory good to have a way of keeping him from being in the main lineup. Considering how he hates the shit out of the mafia, that he isn't there rubbing shoulders with all the other Guardians is reasonably in character for him. So far as the character goes, I like his moxy considering he's projecting himself from jail most of the time, lol.
That said, I got a laundry list of issues with Dokuro Chrome, who is in the top 4 of the most terrible characters in this series. That they're kind of a package deal makes enjoying Mukuro really hard, because he's usually cleaning up her pathetic messes. The illusionary organs idea was such a cool one, but that the character has such a crippling weakness and that it's invoked without fail every single arc to turn her into the Woobie that must be rescued…! The sexism doesn't help. This, and the fact that her personality consists of "i'm shy" and "Mukuro-samaaaaan~" makes my eyes and ears bleed. Maybe my brain, too.
I like illusion users who work for the good guys because normally it's the exclusive domain of obnoxious villains to add forced suspense to a series. In many series, people who use illusions are a convenient way to prevent an author from creatively having to think of different fighting styles or to have an automatic fake-out card to go "but is he really dead?" Something Reborn does do well is not have illusion users be the end all and be all or all over the fucking place – and then the future arc happened.
idunno, it's hard. I find it easy to dislike the Illusion users in this series, Mukuro and Viper are probably the only ones I don't. But since Chrome comes with Mukuro... it's hard.
Yes Negima is very good, I wasn't too impressed with it at first, like most people. But around chapter 40 it gets much better and I'm about halfway through and I can definitely see why people think it's one of the best Shonen right now. The best thing about it are the characters, each one distinct and likeable. Akamatsu can balance his very large cast, something lesser writers (Kishi, Kubo) are not capable of.
Negima is definitely recommended. If you're reading Reborn, Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail and other overrated crap, then stop right now and read Negima. (Ok, I haven't read Reborn but I think I've learned to stay away from it). Just remember that most of the people who say it's crap (maybe even everyone) only read the first two volumes and pronounced the whole thing worthless. It gets much better.
How do I feel about Mukuro.
You know, the most honest answer is I don't really know? lol
I mean, naturally he's one of the better villains this series has had, and when he shows up he always makes an impact - almost always for the better. Considering his potential to be OP, it is probably in theory good to have a way of keeping him from being in the main lineup. Considering how he hates the shit out of the mafia, that he isn't there rubbing shoulders with all the other Guardians is reasonably in character for him. So far as the character goes, I like his moxy considering he's projecting himself from jail most of the time, lol.
That said, I got a laundry list of issues with Dokuro Chrome, who is in the top 4 of the most terrible characters in this series. That they're kind of a package deal makes enjoying Mukuro really hard, because he's usually cleaning up her pathetic messes. The illusionary organs idea was such a cool one, but that the character has such a crippling weakness and that it's invoked without fail every single arc to turn her into the Woobie that must be rescued…! The sexism doesn't help. This, and the fact that her personality consists of "i'm shy" and "Mukuro-samaaaaan~" makes my eyes and ears bleed. Maybe my brain, too.
I like illusion users who work for the good guys because normally it's the exclusive domain of obnoxious villains to add forced suspense to a series. In many series, people who use illusions are a convenient way to prevent an author from creatively having to think of different fighting styles or to have an automatic fake-out card to go "but is he really dead?" Something Reborn does do well is not have illusion users be the end all and be all or all over the fucking place – and then the future arc happened.
idunno, it's hard. I find it easy to dislike the Illusion users in this series, Mukuro and Viper are probably the only ones I don't. But since Chrome comes with Mukuro... it's hard.
Yeah, it sucks that he comes packaged with Chrome most the time. But since he is his own character I like to keep them separated mentally both because he's significantly more badass that she'll ever be, and because eventually he'll be his own character again (especially if they go to the Vindice prison like I believe they will next arc). And yeah, the future arc littered the place with useless illusionists. But just remember… Mukuro did it first, lol (so by firsts logic that makes him the best). Plus when Mukuro uses his they're a lot more badass.
So yeah, thanks for answering that for me. Sounds like I can safely say you're alright with and even kinda like Mukuro, but only if you don't package him with Chrome, lol.
Mukuro is hands down one of the better characters in the series just don't lump him with chrome.
awesome characters in this series
yamamoto
hibari
ryohei
mukuro
xanxus
squalo
the arcobaleno
and lambo and gokudera have their moments
but the problem is these are good for this series there's quite a diffrence between good characters and then funny/bad ass characters
like I always argue with my friends mihawk is a badass character, he gives you a cool chill when he calmly states something, he always impresses with his powers, we know him mainly through his title and his fights, that's fine, he fills the role of a badass character very well, but he's not a good character, he doesn't have personality besides the typical badass, stay calm cool collected be strong attitude, he hasn't been noted to have dreams, or even a backstory he's a very pale character (this describes half the characters in Bleach) he's a two dimensional character who plays his part
where as on the other hand there's characters like hilulk who may have only appeared for a little while but showed us an amazing amount of character and personality and really made us feel for the character, I was truly sad when he died he filled his role perfectly a solid example of a good character
and then of course there's gag characters who are there simply to play a gag and get us to laugh, we all know examples of these
the problem is in this series… and Felch to many characters are simply gag and badass stereotypes we may find them funny or cool but at the end of the day there not good or great characters
Good characters:
Hibari
Yamamoto
Mukuro
Ryohei
10-years+ Lambo
Arcabaleno
Shamal (I liked him, but he's magically disappeared for a while)
Bad characters:
Chrome (completely useless shy girl that Amano vents her pent up fetishes on before calling Mukuro)
Tsuna (in the running for worst protagonist in the history of fiction)
Enma (ugh…)
Lambo (obnoxious and only rarely amusing)
Kyoko (does nothing but make Tsuna jizz in his pants)
Haru (does nothing but be annoying as hell, desuuuuu!)
"Do these characters still exist?"/"Where'd they go?" characters:
Shamal
Lancia (he had potential, but all he's been important for is... an attack-blocking ring and randomly showing up to save the day in the Varia arc)
Present Gamma(and his Family; I was expecting relevance when we returned to the present after his role in the Future; instead fucking Byakuran of all people seems to be the resident new face from the Future arc that we'll see on and off in the present)
Fuuta
I-Pin
and while we are listing these characters let us all remember the unwritten rule about never ever talking about he who shall not be named except to tell people not to name or mention him
Good characters:
Hibari
Yamamoto
Mukuro
Ryohei
10-years+ Lambo
Arcabaleno
Shamal (I liked him, but he's magically disappeared for a while)Bad characters:
Chrome (completely useless shy girl that Amano vents her pent up fetishes on before calling Mukuro)
Tsuna (in the running for worst protagonist in the history of fiction)
Enma (ugh…)
Lambo (obnoxious and only rarely amusing)
Kyoko (does nothing but make Tsuna jizz in his pants)
Haru (does nothing but be annoying as hell, desuuuuu!)"Do these characters still exist?"/"Where'd they go?" characters:
Shamal
Lancia (he had potential, but all he's been important for is... an attack-blocking ring and randomly showing up to save the day in the Varia arc)
Present Gamma(and his Family; I was expecting relevance when we returned to the present after his role in the Future; instead fucking Byakuran of all people seems to be the resident new face from the Future arc that we'll see on and off in the present)
Fuuta
I-Pin
Someone should make the type of list you just made for Naruto, Bleach and maybe Fairy Tail.