Ugh….what can I compare this invisible life force power to that is a familiar fictional example???
General 'Haki' Discussion
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Reiatsu sounds good :ninja:
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@JERK:
Ugh….what can I compare this invisible life force power to that is a familiar fictional example???
Ripple ?
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@Sea:
You fiend.:ninja:
[hide][qimg]http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u243/wob_wob/05.jpg?t=1239198523[/qimg]
[qimg]http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u243/wob_wob/06.jpg?t=1239198628[/qimg]
[/hide]Hahaha, foam is coming out of the mouth
HAKI = REIATSU -
And Luffy VS Enel and Luffy VS Crocodile were very interesting battles, and I'm not only referring to the part where we find out their weaknesses, what the hell is wrong with you?
So your abandoning the basis of your argument. Since whether or not Luffy was using haki to hit Enel then wouldn't have mattered. So Oda can still make fights interesting even if he uses haki. It's funny you say this since Enel was using mantra coughhakicough Their fight didn't even come down to Luffy vs. a logia user about how 2 DF users use their powers.
Also, those would just be sneak peaks for amazing stuff Oda could have done with other battles against better logia users.
What sneak peak? Shutting down your brain and ricocheting the attacks off a wall is interesting?
This argument doesn't even make sense anymore. You're talking about you wouldn't want Luffy to use haki due to fights against logias not being interesting. As if the use of haki will make fights less interesting based off of nothing.
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It will make the fights against Logias less interesting, not uninteresting, because bypassing a Logia defense was one of the things with more potential, when I saw all those Logias, I saw a lot of possibilities for cool, interesting and intelligent "twists", if you want, with Luffy finding good weaknesses
That stuff won't happen, Luffy will just bypass the defense because its what haki does, and that takes a lot of interest.
Sure, there will still be good stuff, after all, Crocodile VS Luffy and Enel VS Luffy were interesting fights even after Luffy having found out the weakness, but it was a lot of potential that Oda missed here.Also, I am not abandoning the basis of my argument what so ever.
From the beginning, I said that I'd like that Haki wouldn't exist so that the battles against Logias would be more imaginative instead of having a generic power to go against the different defenses, I also said that it will take away from the uniqueness of a fighting style of every one.To this post, I have yet to say anything against what I said from the beginning
I ain't changing my basis, you're just not reading what I'm writing.And what the hell does the ricocheting the attacks off a wall have to do with Logia defenses? But actually, that was a pretty interesting twist, too, I also liked that one.
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vDNzyytIw24
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So what?
Yes, its about Elemental weaknesses, and that is related to Pokemon.
It doesn't change the fact that those weakness exploring moments were interesting, and would have been even more interesting against big logias like Kizaru, Akainu, Smoker, Aokiji, Smoker and whatever Logia Oda wants to create.
Haki bypassing those defenses, whatever they are, is just an easy way out of the potential. -
@Cyan:
Ripple ?
This
[hide]
Read from left to right
Translation:
Heartless (disguised as the Chinese Emperor): Besides, we have more important thing to do.
Heavenless (Heartless's little brother): Big bro, what are you saying?
Narrator: Heartless turn back, with completely different face. A solemn countenance, incomparable grace.
Heartless's (actually the king**'s**) drive/presence/haki makes Heavenless feel immense fear and respect, unconsciously knee without even knowing why.
Heavenless: Big bro, who are you disguising as?
[/hide]
Except that it is really King's haki in general culture (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc.) -
It will make the fights against Logias less interesting, not uninteresting, because bypassing a Logia defense was one of the things with more potential, when I saw all those Logias, I saw a lot of possibilities for cool, interesting and intelligent "twists", if you want, with Luffy finding good weaknesses
Were you being sarcastic when you said Luffy vs. Enel being interesting had noting to do with Luffy being his natural weakness? Cuz he bypassed Enel's logia without haki and you claim it was still interesting. That's proof within itself that Luffy can bypass logia's weaknesses and still have just as interesting fights.
That stuff won't happen, Luffy will just bypass the defense because its what haki does, and that takes a lot of interest.
No it doesn't since he did that with Enel. Luffy bypassing a logia's weakness with haki doesn't mean it won't be as interesting as past fights against logias users.
You spending time imagining goofy and ridiculous ways Luffy would defeat Akainu and Kizaru after haki kept on being hinted at it and it was obvious Luffy had it has no bearing on Oda maintaining the quality of fights against logia users.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Were you being sarcastic when you said Luffy vs. Enel being interesting had noting to do with Luffy being his natural weakness? Cuz he bypassed Enel's logia without haki and you claim it was still interesting. That's proof within itself that Luffy can bypass logia's weaknesses and still have just as interesting fights.
Look, you might want to revisit my posts and quote me saying that the fights will be uninteresting with Haki, I'l wait, don't worry.No it doesn't since he did that with Enel. Luffy bypassing a logia's weakness with haki doesn't mean it won't be as interesting as past fights against logias users.
Not a question of being as interesting as past fights, but it will be far less interesting than what it could have been.
Of course Akainu VS Luffy will be better than Luffy VS Crocodile, even with Haki, but it would have been far better if Luffy explored Akainu's defense.
Just read my arguments, lolYou spending time imagining goofy and ridiculous ways Luffy would defeat Akainu and Kizaru after haki kept on being hinted at it and it was obvious Luffy had it has no bearing on Oda maintaining the quality of fights against logia users.
Those goofy and ridiculous ways would make the fight far more interesting than if Luffy can just hit Akainu straight on.
It made for a better "underdog" feel, and also for a better "no matter what I do, I just can't possibly touch him" feel. Even if Oda wrote something as stupid as having Luffy picking up a mirror from Duval to finish off Kizaru, it would be more intense.The fights against Logia had a lot of potential, and were something I have been waiting a long time for, until Haki was completely unveiled.
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Make One Wrong Move And It'll Kick Your Grass!
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@JERK:
Make One Wrong Move And It'll Kick Your Grass!
Who would have thought you were the same guy that was complaining against stupid comparisions between Luffy and Naruto having the same giving up attitude
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I'm still not understanding how Luffy attaining Haki is going to dumb down any possible fight he may have with Logia users?
Is his Haki gonna automatically stop Kizaru from moving at the speed of light, or Akainu's fist/palm/method of attack from melting Luffy instantly upon contact? Probably not. I can only see the fights be just as interesting with Haki as they would w/o Haki. So Luffy has the ability to punch Logias thanks to Haki. How is this any less interesting than Luffy finding out how to punch other Logias when haki wasn't "mainstream"?
Even then, I can still imagine Luffy finding out incredible ways to fight another person, even with Haki in his arsenal. It can't do anything but help him; And even with all of that, he'd still need more than Haki to fight higher tiers like the Admirals, etc.
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Look, you might want to revisit my posts and quote me saying that the fights will be uninteresting with Haki, I'l wait, don't worry.I didn't use the word uninteresting once. What are you reading? YOU said the fights wouldn't be as interesting or did you forget when YOU said that? Read that quote again cuz it has nothing to do with me saying you said the fights would be uninteresting.
Not a question of being as interesting as past fights, but it will be far less interesting than what it could have been.
Going off your oblivious expectations, sure.
Of course Akainu VS Luffy will be better than Luffy VS Crocodile, even with Haki, but it would have been far better if Luffy explored Akainu's defense.
You don't have anything supporting that claim other than how interesting you felt Enel vs. Luffy and Croc vs. Luffy were and all of your goofy and ridiculous ways Luffy could fight logia users that you imagined that would be so "intense".
Those goofy and ridiculous ways would make the fight far more interesting than if Luffy can just hit Akainu straight on.
Goofy and ridiculous aren't the ingredients for interesting fights.
It made for a better "underdog" feel, and also for a better "no matter what I do, I just can't possibly touch him" feel.
Luffy's not going to be the underdog forever.
Even if Oda wrote something as stupid as having Luffy picking up a mirror from Duval to finish off Kizaru, it would be more intense.
No it wouldn't. You don't know what intense means.
The fights against Logia had a lot of potential, and were something I have been waiting a long time for, until Haki was completely unveiled.
Don't know how that could be after you found Enel vs. Luffy so interesting
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@Muda:
I'm still not understanding how Luffy attaining Haki is going to dumb down any possible fight he may have with Logia users?
Is his Haki gonna automatically stop Kizaru from moving at the speed of light, or Akainu's fist/palm/method of attack from melting Luffy instantly upon contact? Probably not. I can only see the fights be just as interesting with Haki as they would w/o Haki. So Luffy has the ability to punch Logias thanks to Haki. How is this any less interesting than Luffy finding out how to punch other Logias when haki wasn't "mainstream"?
Even then, I can still imagine Luffy finding out incredible ways to fight another person, even with Haki in his arsenal. It can't do anything but help him; And even with all of that, he'd still need more than Haki to fight higher tiers like the Admirals, etc.
Derp?
Its less interesting because the formula of having an invincible monster that can't seem to be touched having a weakness hard to find is a great formula that worked and had potential.
What kind of question is that? -
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
I didn't use the word uninteresting once. What are you reading? YOU said the fights wouldn't be as interesting or did you forget when YOU said that? Read that quote again cuz it has nothing to do with me saying you said the fights would be uninteresting.
Going off your oblivious expectations, sure.Allow me to reformulate
"Cuz he bypassed Enel's logia without haki and you claim it was still interesting."
Yes, it was still interesting, I never said before that matches against logias without haki were uninterestingYou don't have anything supporting that claim other than how interesting you felt Enel vs. Luffy and Croc vs. Luffy were.
They were, at least to me
Goofy and ridiculous aren't the ingredients for interesting fights.
And you call yourself a One Piece fan. Derp
Luffy VS Crocodile, Luffy VS Enel, Zoro VS Kaku, every Usopp battle ever, even Luffy VS Lutchi, the most serious battle of them all, had humor, goofiness and ridiculousness.Luffy's not going to be the underdog forever. No it wouldn't. You don't know what intense means.
Yes, he will, the day Oda makes a "boss" character that is weaker than Luffy is the day that fight will sure as hell be uninteresting
Don't know how that could be after you found Enel vs. Luffy so interesting
[qimg]http://memegenerator.net/Foul-Bachelor-Frog/ImageMacro/735026/Foul-Bachelor-Frog-meme-generator-back-lawls.jpg[/qimg]They will still be interesting, but not as interesting as they could have been
I'm aiming to get you to understand after I repeat 100 times, my friend -
Allow me to reformulate
"Cuz he bypassed Enel's logia without haki and you claim it was still interesting."
Yes, it was still interesting, I never said before that matches against logias without haki were uninterestingSo explain why if he used haki in that fight it wouldn't be as interesting without?
They were, at least to me
Guess you only have yourself to blame for this sneak peak stuff you created in your head.
And you call yourself a One Piece fan. Derp
Luffy VS Crocodile, Luffy VS Enel, Zoro VS Kaku, every Usopp battle ever, even Luffy VS Lutchi, the most serious battle of them all, had humor, goofiness and ridiculousness.The goofy and ridiculous shit did not make the fights interesting. I didn't say to myself "I wonder how skilled Zoro will be as Usopp as his sword". Humor is appreciated but they don't make the fights interesting.
Yes, he will, the day Oda makes a "boss" character that is weaker than Luffy is the day that fight will sure as hell be uninteresting
I never said Oda is going to make a boss character weaker than Luffy (despite Enel being weaker than Luffy). I said he wouldn't be the underdog forever. You should figure out the difference. Cuz there is one.
They will still be interesting, but not as interesting as before
Yeah, going off your wild unfounded oblivious expectations.
I'm aiming to get you to understand after I repeat 100 times
I understand you just don't have any support to the claim other than how far your imagination can run.
my friend
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
So explain why if he used haki in that fight it wouldn't be as interesting without?
Oh, no, you're misunderstanding me, Enel's mantra ability was awesome, I loved that crap. In fact, if it wasn't for the whole "bypass logia defense" thing, Haki would be a-okay in any battle ever, even if it makes the fighters less unique
Guess you only have yourself to blame for this sneak peak stuff you created in your head.
Guess so, it doesn't change the fact it would have been more interesting, derp
The goofy and ridiculous shit did not make the fights interesting. I didn't say to myself "I wonder how skilled Zoro will be as Usopp as his sword". Humor is appreciated but they don't make the fights interesting.
So what? I never said that it was the humor itself that made them interesting, I said that even if it was silly humor that defeated someone as big as Akainu, as long as it was a logical way to bypass Akainu's defense, it would still give for a more tense battle overall with a satisfying ending.
I never said Oda is going to make a boss character weaker than Luffy. I said he wouldn't be the underdog forever. You should figure out the difference. Cuz there is one.
Enlighten me
Also Enel was weaker than Luffy.
No he wasn't, even with his Devil Fruit completely outmatched, Enel gave Luffy a run for his money.
Yeah, going off your wild unfounded oblivious expectations.
"Pft, what an idiot, expecting a fight to be more interesting than it will be, for shame"
Yes, maybe me expecting Oda to give us interesting stuff with the logias was oblivious, but it doesn't change the fact it would have been more interesting.I understand you just don't have any support to the claim other than how far your imagination can run.
Seriously, its not rocket science
Haki: Defense is shattered from the beginning, whatever Oda had planned goes on
Without Haki: Luffy has a lot of work to go through that monster ability and find a weakness, whatever Oda had planned goes on.
Maybe this is just me, but I find the later option more interesting out of the two. -
Derp?
Its less interesting because the formula of having an invincible monster that can't seem to be touched having a weakness hard to find is a great formula that worked and had potential.
What kind of question is that?And having Haki makes this "formula" null and void?[/derp]
Even if Luffy gains control of his Haki, it isn't the end all/be all. He still has to progress. You make it seem like the minute he gains control of his Haki, every Admiral and "invincible" monster with a weakness hard to find is fubar'd.
Whitebeard has (or should I say had) the same level of Haki, but Aokiji still found ways to become intangible when he approached him; Matter of fact, if I recall, he did so AS Whitebeard stabbed at him. Now whether WB even bothered using Haki is up for debate, but if having Haki is the "end all/be all", couldn't he have easily just Haki-stabbed Aokiji and have been done with it?
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@Muda:
And having Haki makes this "formula" null and void?[/derp]
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YesEven if Luffy gains control of his Haki, it isn't the end all/be all. He still has to progress. You make it seem like the minute he gains control of his Haki, every Admiral and "invincible" monster with a weakness hard to find is fubar'd.
It is, of course, Luffy will have dificulties going through the huge fists of lava and lava streams that will come at him, and he will have to keep his distance with AoKiji, and he will have to be very quick, strong and smart not to be thrown like a ragdoll by Kizaru, but the weakness aspect is not there any more, from the beginning, he can hurt the Logias, so instead of it being more of a weakness battle (which it had potential to be), it will be more of a Luffy VS Lucci battle, only with more Devil Fruits mixed in it and less martial arts (and rokushi) involved.
Whitebeard has (or should I say had) the same level of Haki, but Aokiji still found ways to become intangible when he approached him; Matter of fact, if I recall, he did so AS Whitebeard stabbed at him. Now whether WB even bothered using Haki is up for debate, but if having Haki is the "end all/be all", couldn't he have easily just stabbed Aokiji and have been done with it?
I thought that meant Whitebeard didn't have haki, or that he wasn't able to use it in that moment.
If you're right there, then all fine by me, just as long as the adversaries Luffy faces that aren't fodder will always be able to do that. -
Oh, no, you're misunderstanding me, Enel's mantra ability was awesome, I loved that crap. In fact, if it wasn't for the whole "bypass logia defense" thing, Haki would be a-okay in any battle ever, even if it makes the fighters less unique
I'm talking about Luffy not Enel.
Guess so, it doesn't change the fact it would have been more interesting, derp
That changes everything.
So what?
Given that you just said I wasn't an One Piece fan?
I never said that it was the humor itself that made them interesting, I said that even if it was silly humor that defeated someone as big as Akainu, as long as it was a logical way to bypass Akainu's defense, it would still give for a more tense battle overall with a satisfying ending.
That's not interesting but I guess it would be to you and satisfying to boot. Good thing you're not writing a work of non-fiction.
Enlighten me
Any fight ever where the victor of the fight was 50/50 on both sides. Where both sides overcome different advantages from the opponent.
Now that I think about it. Kreig was weaker too.
No he wasn't, even with his Devil Fruit completely outmatched, Enel gave Luffy a run for his money.
Luffy kicked Enel's ass and then Enel ran away. Luffy followed kicked his ass again, fucked up his plans, and then Enel gave up and went to the moon.
"Pft, what an idiot, expecting a fight to be more interesting than it will be, for shame"
Pft, what a dumbass having unreasonable expectations for future fights, not waiting for a new ability to be fully explained and has been used by voluntarily by the protagonist in an actual fight, expecting the main character to be the underdog for the rest of the manga without considering he'd eventually become as strong as his rivals.
Yes, maybe me expecting Oda to give us interesting stuff with the logias was oblivious
No you were oblivious to the hints of haki throughout the story especially since you bring up Kizaru and Akainu. If you had these thoughts before that you should've given them up by now.
it doesn't change the fact it would have been more interesting.
Nah it wouldn't.
Seriously, its not rocket science
Haki: Defense is shattered from the beginning, whatever Oda had planned goes on
So what? Haki gives logia users a wake up call and makes for better fights where they aren't one sided while the reader waits for Luffy to figure out a way to defeat it with a joke or something supported with bad logic.
Without Haki: Luffy has a lot of work to go through that monster ability and find a weakness, whatever Oda had planned goes on.
Maybe this is just me, but I find the later option more interesting out of the two.Haki makes for better, more interesting fights. Maybe it is just you.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
I'm talking about Luffy not Enel.
I see
In that case, it would have been less interesting without haki for entirely different reasons, because Luffy facing Enel without knowing what Mantra is made for a more interesting showdownThat changes everything.
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Given that you just said I wasn't an One Piece fan?
As a One Piece fan, you should know humor, goofiness and is always part of the fights, that's all I said. I never said that they were the ingredients for a interesting fight, which is what you accused me off
That's not interesting but I guess it would be to you and satisfying to boot. Good thing you're not writing a work of non-fiction.
It would have made the battle more intense because Luffy was unable to fight Akainu, no matter what he tried.
Any fight ever where the victor of the fight was 50/50 on both sides. Where both sides overcome different advantages from the opponent.
Oh, I see.
Personally, I prefer the underdog battles, they are more exciting, which is also why I didn't want Haki, because having the opponents be big monsters instead of equal fighters is better, IMHONow that I think about it. Kreig was weaker too.
I'l give you that one, although that wasn't really a "boss fight"
Luffy kicked Enel's ass and then Enel ran away. Luffy followed kicked his ass again, fucked up his plans, and then Enel gave up and went to the moon.
Enel ran away? Enel stuck Luffy in a huge ball of gold and sent him to hell, Luffy still had problems with Enel after outmatching Enel in his DF
Pft, what a dumbass having unreasonable expectations for future fights, not waiting for a new ability to be fully explained and has been used by voluntarily by the protagonist in an actual fight, expecting the main character to be the underdog for the rest of the manga without considering he'd eventually become as strong as his rivals.
But if you're admitting I'm having unreasonable expectations for future fights, aren't you admitting that the battles would have been better if they followed my unreasonable expectations?
Aren't you agreeing with me, then? :getlost:No you were oblivious to the hints of haki throughout the story especially since you bring up Kizaru and Akainu. If you had these thoughts before that you should've given them up by now.Nah it wouldn't.
There was never any indication Haki went through Logias defenses until Rayleigh VS Kizaru, I was fine until then.
So what? Haki gives logia users a wake up call and makes for better fights where they aren't one sided while the reader waits for Luffy to figure out a way to defeat it with a joke or something supported with bad logic.
Haki makes for better, more interesting fights. Maybe it is just you.Exactly the opposite.
Fights where the opponents are far stronger and seem undefeated and amazing make for better fights, because you just want to see how Luffy will pull this one off.
But I guess we're entering in the opinion part of this discussion. -
I see
In that case, it would have been less interesting without haki for entirely different reasons, because Luffy facing Enel without knowing what Mantra is made for a more interesting showdownI'm strictly talking about Luffy bypassing the logia defense with haki instead of it being wit his rubber body. Not Luffy knowing about mantra or using it.
?
It's just your opinion with nothing supporting it.
As a One Piece fan, you should know humor, goofiness and is always part of the fights, that's all I said.
When did I say they weren't?
I never said that they were the ingredients for a interesting fight, which is what you accused me off
And you replied by stating the obvious about humor being involved in OP fights what's your point? and you're right you didn't say they were the ingredients for interesting fights you claimed they made them more interesting which they do not.
It would have made the battle more intense because Luffy was unable to fight Akainu, no matter what he tried.
That's exactly why he has haki though. No need for Oda to create some bullshit reason for Luffy to win.
Oh, I see.
No longer surprised that you needed that to be said. Be prepared cuz that's where OP fights are heading.
I'l give you that one, although that wasn't really a "boss fight"
So Krieg was not the boss of that arc? Or are you saying they didn't fight? The entire conflict of the arc revolved around Kreig and his crew members. How was it not a boss fight?
It wasn't Mihawk for sure, he made a cameo. Got bored and was gonna leave until he got interested in Zoro and Luffy.
Enel ran away? Enel stuck Luffy in a huge ball of gold
And then he ran away instead of defeating his opponent.
and sent him to hell
That never happened.
Luffy still had problems with Enel after outmatching Enel in his DF
Which were overcome quite easily and had nothing to do with a matter of Enel's strength but his ability to annoy his enemy with his mantra ability.
But if you're admitting I'm having unreasonable expectations for future fights, aren't you admitting that the battles would have been better if they followed my unreasonable expectations?
No they'd just be exaggerated fights with more jokes and bad logic to justify a logia user's lost. The fact that they are unreasonable do not make them good.
Also the assumption that fights won't be as good because of it adds to the horrible opinion of it all.Aren't you agreeing with me, then? :getlost:
No. LAWLS.
There was never any indication Haki went through Logias defenses until Rayleigh VS Kizaru, I was fine until then.
You should've dashed away those foolish hopes by then. I mean wasn't that a year two or ago?
Exactly the opposite.
Nah son.
Fights where the opponents are far stronger and seem undefeated and amazing make for better fights, because you just want to see how Luffy will pull this one off.
You strike me as the type that thoroughly enjoyed Power Rangers, even after their 15th installment.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
I'm strictly talking about Luffy bypassing the logia defense with haki instead of it being wit his rubber body. Not Luffy knowing about mantra or using it.
It would have been the same
It's just your opinion with nothing supporting it.
Need I remind you that this discussion started with me saying that there are some who hoped Haki didn't exist so that the fights would be more interesting for them?
From the beginning, I admited this was my opinionWhen did I say they weren't? And you replied by stating the obvious about humor being involved in OP fights what's your point? and you're right you didn't say they were the ingredients for interesting fights you claimed they made them more interesting which they do not.
WRONG
I said that even if it ended in a hilarious way, as long as it didn't involve haki, and had some logic, it would make the fight more interesting.
And it would, because it would have the excitement and tension of having Luffy, an underdog, try to fight the big logia powerhouse.That's exactly why he has haki though. No need for Oda to create some bullshit reason for Luffy to win.
That's exactly why he shouldn't have haki though. No need for Oda to create some bullshit general power for Luffy to win.
Derp
No longer surprised that you needed that to be said. Be prepared cuz that's where OP fights are heading.
No shit, Sherlock. And that's why I was complaining.
So Krieg was not the boss of that arc? Or are you saying they didn't fight? The entire conflict of the arc revolved around Kreig and his crew members. How was it not a boss fight?
I just mean he wasn't this big powerhouse figure like Akainu, Kizaru, Crocodile, etc.
And then he ran away instead of defeating his opponent.That never happened. Which were overcome quite easily and had nothing to do with a matter of Enel's strength but his ability to annoy his enemy with his mantra ability.
Run away my ass, he sent Luffy down to the ground, that'd be saying that Whitebeard ran away from Akainu by giving him a punch and sending him through three buildings.
No they'd just be exaggerated fights with more jokes and bad logic to justify a logia user's lost. The fact that they are unreasonable do not make them good.
What bad logic? It makes sense, and Oda always stretched reality to fit good and imaginative battles, and that's the way I liked them.
Also the assumption that fights won't be as good because of it adds to the horrible opinion of it all.
Of course they won't, it'l start with Luffy already able to break through his defense, in the others, he'd have to find a nice way to break their defenses first.
No. LAWLS.
Stop saying lawls
You should've dashed away those foolish hopes by then. I mean wasn't that a year two or ago?
Oh man, oh man, you haven't been reading me.
I DID DASH AWAY FROM THE HOPES.
I'm complaining now not because I am expecting Oda to suddenly nullify Haki, I'm complaining now to justify why there are those who don't want Haki.Nah son.
Yah, son
You strike me as the type that thoroughly enjoyed Power Rangers, even after their 15th installment.
You strike me as a type who makes baseless judgement.
I never watched a single episode of Power Rangers.
Regardless, Oda can pull it off, even if the creator of Power Rangers wasn't able to.
He went the Haki way, though -
Stop saying Derps.
I always like to contribute to a good discussion.
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It would have been the same
Exactly. Just as interesting.
Need I remind you that this discussion started with me saying that there are some who hoped Haki didn't exist so that the fights would be more interesting for them?
From the beginning, I admited this was my opinionNot your best I must say.
WRONG
I said that even if it ended in a hilarious way, as long as it didn't involve haki, and had some logic, it would make the fight more interesting.
And it would, because it would have the excitement and tension of having Luffy, an underdog, try to fight the big logia powerhouse.No this is what you said:
Those goofy and ridiculous ways would make the fight far more interesting than if Luffy can just hit Akainu straight on.
I mean it's on this very page(previous; 481) lol.
That's exactly why he shouldn't have haki though. No need for Oda to create some bullshit general power for Luffy to win.
Derp
But it isn't bullshit since Oda's introduced haki in the first chap of the story and continued to show us different types throughout. It isn't some bullshit general power that he just created.
No shit, Sherlock. And that's why I was complaining.
Well if you're just complainng and have nothing of worth to say I guess I should stop. I'll enjoy the fights while you're disgruntled thinking they could've been more interesting lol.
I just mean he wasn't this big powerhouse figure like Akainu, Kizaru, Crocodile, etc.
That doesn't matter but I guess you'll just say the fight wasn't interesting.
Run away my ass, he sent Luffy down to the ground
Instead of defeating/killing him.
that'd be saying that Whitebeard ran away from Akainu by giving him a punch and sending him through three buildings.
No it wouldn't because WB wasn't planning to fly away to the moon.
What bad logic? It makes sense, and Oda always stretched reality to fit good and imaginative battles, and that's the way I liked them.
I'm just going off what you said since you're all behind Luffy using mirrors to defeat Kizaru. That's bad logic but you don't mind since that's interesting to you.
Of course they won't, it'l start with Luffy already able to break through his defense, in the others, he'd have to find a nice way to break their defenses first.
You're talking about one fight. The Croc fight. Not "others" Luffy ran away from Smoker and admitted that he couldn't beat him.
Stop saying lawls
LAWLS LAWLS LAWLS SLWAL SLWAL
Oh man, oh man, you haven't been reading me.
I DID DASH AWAY FROM THE HOPES.
I'm complaining now not because I am expecting Oda to suddenly nullify Haki, I'm complaining now to justify why there are those who don't want Haki.Good now it's time to stop complaining about the progression of the story as far as the fights go.
Yah, son
Nah, nah son, not at all.
You strike me as a type who makes baseless judgement.
I never watched a single episode of Power Rangers.If you did, you would.
Regardless, Oda can pull it off, even if the creator of Power Rangers wasn't able to.
Well you didn't get it lawls so I just say it isn't about Oda pulling it off, it's the fact that he opted not to. That alone should be indication enough that the fights are going to be as interesting as they could be.
He went the Haki way, though
Yeah, that's a good way to end this, Oda did it. Stop complaining and deal with it now.
[hide]LAWLS[/hide] -
Stop saying Derps.
I always like to contribute to a good discussion.
You're right, but its just so satisfying to say it.
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Exactly. Just as interesting.
Alright, lol, but the potential it had for future battles was also great, which is what I'm disussing here
Not your best I must say.No this is what you said:
I mean it's on this very page(previous; 481) lol.Will I need to splash "IMO" in every sentence?
But it isn't bullshit since Oda's introduced haki in the first chap of the story and continued to show us different types throughout. It isn't some bullshit general power that he just created.
I know, if Oda created ways to pass through Logia defenses, it wouldn't be bullshit either, I was just using the same generalization, meaning: I was more criticizing your dismissal in that part of the post you quoted.
Well if you're just complainng and have nothing of worth to say I guess I should stop. I'll enjoy the fights while you're disgruntled thinking they could've been more interesting lol.
Sure, I'l enjoy the battles anyways, but yeah, they won't be as entertaining
That doesn't matter but I guess you'll just say the fight wasn't interesting.
Guess what's wrong with this statement
Instead of defeating/killing him. No it wouldn't because WB wasn't planning to fly away to the moon.
DERP
First of all, how would Enel know Luffy would survive from a fall that big?
And Enel ran away to the moon after being bitchslappedI'm just going off what you said since you're all behind Luffy using mirrors to defeat Kizaru. That's bad logic but you don't mind since that's interesting to you.
Did you complain when Luffy survived a gigantic thunder passing through him? Because rubber would have melted with that crap, even in human size
And did you complain when Magma somehow passes through Fire's Logia Defense?
They are not bad logic, but they are stretched versions of reality to fit a weakness of a Devil Fruit, it worked before, it would work now.You're talking about one fight. The Croc fight. Not "others" Luffy ran away from Smoker and admitted that he couldn't beat him.
What the heck is that supposed to mean? In Luffy VS Crocodile, Luffy also couldn't touch Crocodile, and besides, if Oda went the way I said, do you seriously believe Luffy would have found Smoker's defense 700 chapters () before freaking fighting him?
LAWLS LAWLS LAWLS SLWAL SLWAL
Good now it's time to stop complaining about the progression of the story as far as the fights go.
"YOU'L LIKE WHATEVER PATH ODA GOES IN, YOU MAJOR FAGGET"
Nah, nah son, not at all.
Yeah, son
If you did, you would.
If I did.. I would? :blink:
I assume that means I would watch a lot of episodes if I watched one of them, but I ain't discussing freaking Power Rangers here.Well you didn't get it lawls so I just say it isn't about Oda pulling it off, it's the fact that he opted not to. That alone should be indication enough that the fights are going to be as interesting as they could be.
What the hell is this argument?
You're talking as if One Piece is the perfect manga, with everything in the most interesting detail possible.Yeah, that's a good way to end this, Oda did it. Stop complaining and deal with it now.
[hide]LAWLS[/hide]You know the funny part?
If you didn't complain about my statement AT ALL, this stupid discussion would have never begun
From the beginning, it was about opinions.
I can complain about what Oda didn't do, I have reasons for complaining, and you didn't change anything, in the end, this big clusterfuck of posts can be resumed in:SGRaaize: I don't like the Haki ability to destroy Logia defenses
AdmiralYounkouZig: I doDerp
Dude, what the hell are you talking about. From what I can tell this whole thing revolves around what? Luffy punching his opponent? No really, that's what I'm getting from this.
Yes
Luffy finds water, and he punches Crocodile which he couldn't do before. A fight ensues. Luffy is rubber, and punches an immensely powerful lightning man. A fight ensues. Luffy is owned by an ice man, a lava man, a light man, and a smoke man. He can't punch them. Let's say haki lets him punch them. Fights ensue in which I assume Luffy must deal with the enemies attacks and strength.
Yes
How much does Luffy "figuring out their weakness" factor into this? It seems to me these scenes would only last for one unveiling panel.
Doubt it, the more powerful Logias have different weaknesses, I hate this comparison, but it would probably be more of a Luffy VS Foxy fight, where the weakness was found in the end, or at least in the middle of the battle.
You're complaining about us missing a few pages of Luffy "figuring out a weakness," which we've seen him do already.
Its one of the most hyped aspects, the fact that Logia Users are intangible, no matter what you do, incorporating the punching logia aspects in Haki annoys me, because after seeing all these Logias hyped up, Oda decided just to forget the weakness thing and thus, one of the major aspects from Logia Fruits
This thing you're asking for is both unsubstantial and repetitive. Haki saves time and lets us get the the fight quicker.
Its a formula that would work
Interest is held by, unlike Croc and Enel, these other logias being established as being stronger then Luffy already.
WHAT?
Crocodile was stronger than Luffy,and well, Enel is arguable, but alright, I'l give you Enel.
And besides, that only gives for a better combat, not only is he stronger than Luffy, but he's not even able to be touchedI get what you're getting at though. Water Luffy was great right? Discovering that Luffy was immune to Enel was awesome right? You want more moments like that?
Not only those moments, that were awesome enough already, but imagine the potential that the bigger Logia fruits could get.
That's perfectly reasonable, but you're going negative when you don't need to be. We barely know about haki right? Why couldn't Luffy do some creative stuff with that?
Its possible, its also possible that having a haki above Luffy's haki makes logia still intangible, like Muda Muda suggested
If one of you is right, fineeee by meOr what about Akainu, Aokiji and etc's powers? It seems like you'd be a lot happier just letting go that whole "element weakness" line of thinking about everyone was doing after Luffy beat Crocodile and stopped before haki was introduced. The story has evolved since then, and thankfully twists and creativity exists from other sources.
The story evolved, but one of the major aspects I was hyped for (Logia defense) has been (probably, assuming Muda Muda isn't right) "destroyed", and now its just a given that he'l punch whatever he wants.
Oda will probably have a lot of stuff to show us, but that aspect was quickly thrown out of the window for really no reason, other than to (quoting you) "make the fights quicker". -
Are you some sort of authority figure here ya shithead? I've been reading the previous posts and all you have been saying is no one will join from the current speculated characters, you and that JERK DISEASE. What is your intention exactly? To act like smart-asses and dismiss everyone's opinion? SCREW YOU SHITHEAD!
PERONA 4 NAKAMA HOROHOROHOROHOROCAANNNEE!!!Would've taken you semi serious just with the insults but the last part killed it but yes when it comes to her I am an authority.
@SGRaaize:Alright, lol, but the potential it had for future battles was also great, which is what I'm disussing here
That doesn't mean it won't still be great since you agree that fight was just as interesting. Therefore, whether haki is used or not the fights can stilll be just as interesting as they can.
Will I need to splash "IMO" in every sentence?
Will you?
I know, if Oda created ways to pass through Logia defenses, it wouldn't be bullshit either, I was just using the same generalization, meaning: I was more criticizing your dismissal in that part of the post you quoted.
But I'm still right though. Your criticism of my dismissal is irrelevant.
Sure, I'l enjoy the battles anyways, but yeah, they won't be as entertaining
You just agreed that the Enel fight would be just as interesting had Luffy used haki to bypass his logia thus proving that you believe Oda can makes just as interesting (or entertaining now) as they can.
Guess what's wrong with this statement
Nothing but if you disagree then I'm right. Kreig was weaker than Luffy and apparently you found it interesting.
First of all, how would Enel know Luffy would survive from a fall that big?
Enel has mantra dumbass.
And Enel ran away to the moon after being bitchslapped
That's what I've been saying but at that point when he ran away he was planning to leave after destroying Skypeia.
Did you complain when Luffy survived a gigantic thunder passing through him?
Nah it was pretty obvious what was gonna happen.
Because rubber would have melted with that crap, even in human size
And did you complain when Magma somehow passes through Fire's Logia Defense?There's a difference between real world physics and physics in fiction as it pertains to logic.
Water > fire isn't the same as mirror > light
I did complain at first since in general it sounds stupid but if the premise started with magma can smother fire instead of just adding to it I can see what he did but it was still stupid.
But that's not important since I didn't like Ace and loved that Akainu killed him anyway. Could've just gave Akainu haki imo but he had complained about haki users earlier so that would've looked like a contradiction.
They are not bad logic, but they are stretched versions of reality to fit a weakness of a Devil Fruit, it worked before, it would work now.
What makes it bad is how it's spun and stretched. Mirrors to defeat Kizaru. Mirrors to defeat Kizaru. Mirrors to defeat Kizaru lawls.
What the heck is that supposed to mean?
All your hopes and this entire argument as far as haki bypassing logia dfenses rest on this one fight. It's not as if Oda's been doing this repeatively cuz that'd be boring and predictable.
if Oda went the way I said, do you seriously believe Luffy would have found Smoker's defense 700 chapters () before freaking fighting him?
I never implied that.
LAWLS
"YOU'L LIKE WHATEVER PATH ODA GOES IN, YOU MAJOR FAGGET"
No but you're the faggot complaining.
Yeah, son
Nah son. Those types of fights make for predictability and become unnecessary, hence haki.
If I did.. I would? :blink:
Yeah.
I assume that means I would watch a lot of episodes if I watched one of them, but I ain't discussing freaking Power Rangers here.
You know you're the type.
What the hell is this argument?
You're talking as if One Piece is the perfect manga, with everything in the most interesting detail possible.No I'm not. You're just complaining about something based off of false pretenses.
You know the funny part?
If you didn't complain about my statement AT ALL, this stupid discussion would have never begunI didn't complain. YOU did. I disagreed with your opinion.
From the beginning, it was about opinions.
I can complain about what Oda didn't do, I have reasons for complaining, and you didn't change anything, in the end, this big clusterfuck of posts can be resumed in:SGRaaize: I don't like the Haki ability to destroy Logia defenses
AdmiralYounkouZig: I doExcept you're reasons are silly. They ignore progression of fights in the manga in general, the protagonist improvement as a fighter, and something that Oda's been planning to use from the beginning of the story. You don't even acknowledge how boring and predictable it would be if every logia fight with Luffy is like that cuz in your world all of those fights are amazing and as interesting as they can be. I've given reasons why it's being used and why it's going that way and why you're assumptions were wrong. If you want that type of story read/watch Pokemon.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
That doesn't mean it won't still be great
Do I even need to say anything?
since you agree that fight was just as interesting.
I told you countless times already that its about the potential the fights with other logias had
Therefore, whether haki is used or not the fights can stilll be just as interesting as they can.
No, because with a Logia untouchable, Luffy would have to work far harder to get to his weakness and to defeat him, it makes the fight harder, more tense and more exciting
Will you?
Of course not
But I'm still right though. Your criticism of my dismissal is irrelevant.
You're wrong, because Oda has always done "bullshit" (stretched reality a little to fit his vision), and it has been awesome since the beginning.
You just agreed that the Enel fight would be just as interesting had Luffy used haki to bypass his logia thus proving that you believe Oda can makes just as interesting (or entertaining now) as they can.
Not at all, it was more about the potential Logia fruits had, Luffy VS Enel would be an exception because Luffy's DF outmatched Enel's, part of the Logia fruits is ignored now, because of Haki.
Nothing but if you disagree then I'm right. Kreig was weaker than Luffy and apparently you found it interesting.
Not as interesting as those where he is an underdog, though
Enel has mantra dumbass.
So what? Mantra predicts what the user is thinking or feeling in the near future, it doesn't make him predict that he will survive after falling from that.
That's what I've been saying but at that point when he ran away he was planning to leave after destroying Skypeia.
You're right, then
Nah it was pretty obvious what was gonna happen.
So what? Its also illogical
There's a difference between real world physics and physics in fiction as it pertains to logic.
Thanks for helping me here, derp
If you sent a laser beam at someone and he had a mirror or the laser went to the water, it would kill the guy who had the mirror or pass through the water.
Oda could easily make light revert in both cases in fiction, though.Water > fire isn't the same as mirror > light
What the hell is that supposed to mean?
They're both the same thing, they have logic behind it but are stretchedI did complain at first since in general it sounds stupid but if the premise started with magma can smother fire instead of just adding to it I can see what he did but it was still stupid.
Alright, I didn't.
But that's not important since I didn't like Ace and loved that Akainu killed him anyway. Could've just gave Akainu haki imo but he had complained about haki users earlier so that would've looked like a contradiction.
And besides, he mentioned that magma just finishes off fire, it wasn't haki.
What makes it bad is how it's spun and stretched. Mirrors to defeat Kizaru. Mirrors to defeat Kizaru. Mirrors to defeat Kizaru lawls.
Water would also be cool, I guess it does kinda reflect light, not precisely, but it could also work
All your hopes and this entire argument as far as haki bypassing logia dfenses rest on this one fight. It's not as if Oda's been doing this repeatively cuz that'd be boring and predictable.
The fact is that Logia defenses have been hyped through the whole manga, you would think it would play a part in the fights instead of them just being ignored when Oda feels like giving Luffy haki
I never implied that.
Then what did you mean with your statement?
LAWLS
No but you're the faggot complaining.
With reason
Nah son. Those types of fights make for predictability and become unnecessary, hence haki.
Why are you generalizing? Why would they become repetitive? Its not like all the logias have the same weakness or the same type of weaknesses, Oda could easily pull it off in an imaginative and clever way
Yeah.
:blink:
You know you're the type.
I don't know shit, I never watched Power Rangers
No I'm not. You're just complaining about something based off of false pretenses.
What false pretense?
I didn't complain. YOU did. I disagreed with your opinion.
You complained about my statement
Except you're reasons are silly.
Derp
They ignore progression of fights in the manga in general,
Here's your progression: Luffy has new attacks, his opponent is stronger than the ones before. That's good enough progression for any manga.
protagonist improvement as a fighter
His opponents are also improving
and something that Oda's been planning to use from the beginning of the story.
I don't care if Oda had it planned since the beginning of the story, for all I care, this manga could have been called "Haki: Going through Logia defenses", I would still complain if Oda hyped the potential of Logia defenses only to have Haki nullify that
You don't even acknowledge how boring and predictable it would be if every logia fight with Luffy is like that cuz in your world all of those fights are amazing and as interesting as they can be.
They don't get repetitive, they'd be imaginative and could fit whatever you want.
I've given reasons why it's being used and why it's going that way and why you're assumptions were wrong.
I know my assumptions are wrong, that was established from the beginning of the discussion, so those were unnecessary
And your reasons are that it makes for a less repetitive battle, I don't agree with that, Oda could pull of one thousand imaginative battles with logias and different scenarios.If you want that type of story read/watch Pokemon.
Not even gonna bother discussing this awful comparison JERK DISEASE started
@All "Battles would be interesting if Luffy would find every logia weaknesses"
Haki is canon. Get used to it.
I'm already used to it, and I dislike it.
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I told you countless times already that its about the potential the fights with other logias had
What other fights? You're complaining about haki bypassing logias and bring up Enel. The potential for the fights have not changed with haki added.
No, because with a Logia untouchable, Luffy would have to work far harder to get to his weakness and to defeat him, it makes the fight harder, more tense and more exciting
Using mirrors in a fight against Kizaru isn't hard it's stupid.
Then what did you mean with your statement?
I never implied anything about Luffy figuring out Smoker's weakness chapters before they fought.
This is what I said:You're talking about one fight. The Croc fight. Not "others" Luffy ran away from Smoker and admitted that he couldn't beat him.
Figure out what I meant.
With reason
A baseless one.
I don't know shit
I can tell.
I never watched Power Rangers
You would if you did.
What false pretense?
That Oda would make all fights against logias like the Croc fight and that Luffy wouldn't improve in a way where he could fight logias without bothering to find out their weaknesses(if they even have any).
You complained about my statement
I didn't complain. YOU did. I disagreed with your opinion.
Derp
I knew you agreed.
Here's your progression: Luffy has new attacks, his opponent is stronger than the ones before. That's good enough progression for any manga.
The gears aren't attacks dumbass they're improvements to Luffy's fighting ability just like haki. New attacks aint cutting it.
His opponents are also improving
Where is the proof of that? Show me where Akainu is training and pushing himself to become even more powerful. And what is the point of saying that? Just cuz his opponents improve doesn't mean you're not ignoring that Luffy is suppose to in order to fight them i.e haki.
I don't care if Oda had it planned since the beginning of the story
That's another one of your problems.
I would still complain if Oda hyped the potential of Logia defenses only to have Haki nullify that
Fell for the hype instead of actually thinking about the path the story would go down if he continued with that lame uninteresting formula in arc to arc boss fights.
They don't get repetitive
What you're suggesting is repititive, predictable, boring, and lame.
Water would also be cool, I guess it does kinda reflect light, not precisely, but it could also work
What does water reflecting light have to do with Luffy being able to touch a light man? Do you even understand why luffy was able to hit Croc?
They're both the same thing, they have logic behind it but are stretched
Not on the scale these logia powers are on.
Why would they become repetitive?
Watching Luffy be down for the count then figuring out the weakness and winning is a repetitive, boring, god awful formula. And you say you don't watch Power Rangers. Hmph.
Oda could pull of one thousand imaginative battles with logias and different scenarios.
Prove this. You have the Croc battle and what?
Oda could easily make light revert in both cases in fiction, though.
That's irrelevant. You just explained why Luffy might be able to use mirrors to reflect Kizaru's light beams. Not speak on his weakness or why mirrors would bypass his defense.
So what? Mantra predicts what the user is thinking or feeling in the near future, it doesn't make him predict that he will survive after falling from that.
You're a dumbass. He doesn't need to predict anything. Mantra also allows you to find the location of any living person in the area(for Enel the area is greatly extended) Did you not read the arc and see as how he counted down on how many ppl died? Or when he sent huge ass lighting strikes from miles away to the pin point location of a person that broke his rules or spoke against him? Enel has mantra so after doing what he did he knew Luffy was still alive. There was nothing indicating after he did that that he felt victorious in killing Luffy. Don't speak on mantra if you don't even know anything.
Not as interesting as those where he is an underdog, though
So what? That's not the argument. Luffy having haki doesn't mean he won't be the underdog against certain logia users. The logia defense isn't the only thing that made Luffy the underdog. Just don't expect him to be the underdog for the rest of the story dumbass.
-
insert gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn here
-
Who would have thought you were the same guy that was complaining against stupid comparisions between Luffy and Naruto having the same giving up attitude
I'm mocking your attitude that Logia elemental exploitation is this unique brilliant cornerstone to OP combat.
-
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
What other fights? You're complaining about haki bypassing logias and bring up Enel. The potential for the fights have not changed with haki added.
Yes they have, because the logia defense, a thing that has been hyped by Oda countless times, is worthless now.
Using mirrors in a fight against Kizaru isn't hard it's stupid.
Using water in a fight against Crocodile isn't hard its stupid
I never implied anything about Luffy figuring out Smoker's weakness chapters before they fought.
This is what I said:
Figure out what I meant.Hum… So, let me reformulate
Of course Luffy can't beat Smoker yet, it would be stupid for him to be able to beat him nowI can tell.
lol
You would if you did.
Yes, If I watched something, I would watch something
That Oda would make all fights against logias like the Croc fight and that Luffy wouldn't improve in a way where he could fight logias without bothering to find out their weaknesses(if they even have any).
That wasn't a false pretense until some months ago, and it was followed by Oda (as far as we could see) until then
I didn't complain. YOU did. I disagreed with your opinion.I knew you agreed.
Derp
The gears aren't attacks dumbass they're improvements to Luffy's fighting ability just like haki. New attacks aint cutting it.
And I have no problem with Gears, Oda could make 1000 more gears for all I care, just as long as they didn't do something stupid like go through someone's logia defense, nullify a Devil Fruit completely, make them teleport to another dimension, that kinda thing.
Where is the proof of that? Show me where Akainu is training and pushing himself to become even more powerful.
And what is the point of saying that? Just cuz his opponents improve doesn't mean you're not ignoring that Luffy is suppose to in order to fight them i.e haki.
What I meant is that the opponents are getting stronger and stronger, meaning, he's facing stronger opponents and stronger opponents
That's another one of your problems.
Fell for the hype instead of actually thinking about the path the story would go down if he continued with that lame uninteresting formula in arc to arc boss fights.Its lame to you, is this really that hard to understand? Also: "HE'S ACTUALLY SURPRISED SOMETHING ODA HYPED FOR 400 CHAPTERS IS NOW COMPLETELY NULLIFIED AND POINTLESS, WHAT A JOKE"
What you're suggesting is repititive, predictable, boring, and lame.
For you, maybe
What does water reflecting light have to do with Luffy being able to touch a light man? Do you even understand why luffy was able to hit Croc?
Not on the scale these logia powers are on.That was indeed pretty stupid of me.
And it wouldn't make much sense, either. DerpWatching Luffy be down for the count then figuring out the weakness and winning is a repetitive, boring, god awful formula. And you say you don't watch Power Rangers. Hmph.
Its an awesome formula, one that works, and one that makes the battles tense
And you're forgetting it would be varied with a lot of other stuff, like Luffy VS Lutchi style of combats, and you're also forgetting that after Luffy finds the weakness, the combat would do exactly what it would do if it didn't have Logia defense from then onProve this. You have the Croc battle and what?
So, you think Oda couldn't pull a simple formula off, with so many different logias?
That's irrelevant. You just explained why Luffy might be able to use mirrors to reflect Kizaru's light beams. Not speak on his weakness or why mirrors would bypass his defense.
When he travels in light form, he seems to only be able to speed in a line, using a mirror to make that line change directions in something that would kill him, like water
You're a dumbass. He doesn't need to predict anything. Mantra also allows you to find the location of any living person in the area(for Enel the area is greatly extended) Did you not read the arc and see as how he counted down on how many ppl died?
Or when he sent huge ass lighting strikes from miles away to the pin point location of a person that broke his rules or spoke against him? Enel has mantra so after doing what he did he knew Luffy was still alive. There was nothing indicating after he did that that he felt victorious in killing Luffy. Don't speak on mantra if you don't even know anything.
That was after he sent Luffy down, he only found out he didn't die after Luffy was down in the ground
So what? That's not the argument. Luffy having haki doesn't mean he won't be the underdog against certain logia users. The logia defense isn't the only thing that made Luffy the underdog. Just don't expect him to be the underdog for the rest of the story dumbass.
But its one of the things that makes them the strongest Devil Fruits.
Also, he will probably be an underdog until like the final battle. -
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@JERK:
I'm mocking your attitude that Logia elemental exploitation is this unique brilliant cornerstone to OP combat.
Guess what's wrong with that statement
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I'd really like to imagine how a fight where Luffy exploits an element to beat a logia would be exciting at this point. What would that give us in the future? Luffy vs. Kizaru–mirror Luffy? Luffy vs. Akainu--Luffy with an extremely good fire extinguisher? Luffy vs. Smoker--Luffy covered in nicorette patches?
I think there are a few good reasons why haki is better then these, aside from Luffy having to carry around a stupid weapon the whole battle. First, it's ripping off Croc's fight, which would be boring. Second, Croc vs. Luffy ultimately evolved into a battle where the weapon was useless--in the end Luffy beat him with his own strength via blood. Same with Enel.
How will this work with Luffy's assumed battles with other logias? I think the author even realized that having Luffy beat Croc with some random weapon was gimmickly, tackly, hollow or whatever--it sucked. Which is why in the end Luffy won with his own strength, he learned the weakness yet used his own body to do it. How can Luffy accomplish this against light, smoke, lava, or any future logias (not including Ao Kiji since that has an obvious answer).
SGRaaize, I see nothing but you clinging to an old outdated theory here. Haki will make these fights better, since those old theories suck from a storytelling point of view. What, you want Luffy to constantly cling to an outside source to beat a logia? That's awful, it'd be just like Croc said "you're no match for me with that (insert gimmick weapon here)." Yes, I remember that even Croc's brought up a good point against this idea--Luffy will never be a match for these guys if he needs a gimmick just to punch them.
The creativity you want can be found in other sources, it's no big loss when haki will only (as far as we know) negate the one ability that all logia users have. What about fighting styles man? Luffy can skip struggling just to punch them for each battle and instead struggle with who knows what? Kizaru's unique attack that no other fighter he's met before has. Akainu's crazy strong technique that no other fighter including Kizaru has, and so on. Why not focus on the unique abilities instead of just the logia defense that Croc put so much focus on in his first fight with Luffy. Yes, Luffy hitting a logia was played out back in Alabasta–now the problem isn't hitting them, it's that they're way stronger then he is anyway.
What also great is, you can still have that whole "struggling to hit the logia" thing you want. We don't know how haki works yet, so many some weird and creative things can happen with that.
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Guess what's wrong with that statement
You were acting like Oda was about to perform illegal surgery on the lungs of One Piece and sell them to Bulgarian mafia.
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I'd really like to imagine how a fight where Luffy exploits an element to beat a logia would be exciting at this point. What would that give us in the future? Luffy vs. Kizaru–mirror Luffy? Luffy vs. Akainu--Luffy with an extremely good fire extinguisher? Luffy vs. Smoker--Luffy covered in nicorette patches?
A fire extinguisher wouldn't work on Akainu, but actually a fun fact is that magma gets solid pretty quickly above soil, so after some time, Akainu would get greyish around some areas and tangible there.
About Luffy VS Smoker, that's a hard one, I'l be honest there. But Oda could make a weakness on a DF, has long as it had some logic behind itI think there are a few good reasons why haki is better then these, aside from Luffy having to carry around a stupid weapon the whole battle. First, it's ripping off Croc's fight, which would be boring. Second, Croc vs. Luffy ultimately evolved into a battle where the weapon was useless–in the end Luffy beat him with his own strength via blood. Same with Enel.
All the battles would end up like Crocodile's fight, in a strenght, but being able to destroy a Logia weakness would be a part that made the fight tougher and harder for Luffy, which would make it more intense and satisfying in the end
How will this work with Luffy's assumed battles with other logias? I think the author even realized that having Luffy beat Croc with some random weapon was gimmickly, tackly, hollow or whatever–it sucked. Which is why in the end Luffy won with his own strength, he learned the weakness yet used his own body to do it. How can Luffy accomplish this against light, smoke, lava, or any future logias (not including Ao Kiji since that has an obvious answer).
I don't think the author has that idea, considering he kept on hyping Logias defenses constantly, instead of dismissing them with Haki fairly quickly
SGRaaize, I see nothing but you clinging to an old outdated theory here. Haki will make these fights better, since those old theories suck from a storytelling point of view. What, you want Luffy to constantly cling to an outside source to beat a logia? That's awful, it'd be just like Croc said "you're no match for me with that (insert gimmick weapon here)." Yes, I remember that even Croc's brought up a good point against this idea–Luffy will never be a match for these guys if he needs a gimmick just to punch them.
I'm not exactly clinging to it, I have accepted it one hundred years ago, I remind you that this is me arguing why there are some who don't like Haki.
The creativity you want can be found in other sources, it's no big loss when haki will only (as far as we know) negate the one ability that all logia users have. What about fighting styles man? Luffy can skip struggling just to punch them for each battle and instead struggle with who knows what? Kizaru's unique attack that no other fighter he's met before has. Akainu's crazy strong technique that no other fighter including Kizaru has, and so on. Why not focus on the unique abilities instead of just the logia defense that Croc put so much focus on in his first fight with Luffy.
Why can't we have both? The intangibility and those powers, what gives?
What also great is, you can still have that whole "struggling to hit the logia" thing you want. We don't know how haki works yet, so many some weird and creative things can happen with that.
Yes, I hope so, and Muda Muda showed me a panel where AoKiji was intangible even with Whitebeard using haki, sounds very awesome and would make this argument null
The thing that annoys me the most about this whole Haki thing is that Devil Fruits already had 2 great weaknesses, that were enough, and that made the fight still unfair for the one who doesn't have Logia fruits
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@JERK:
You were acting like Oda was about to perform illegal surgery on the lungs of One Piece and sell them to Bulgarian mafia.
No I freaking wasn't
From the beginning, I was arguing as to why there are some (including me) who don't like Haki, I never said it would ruin the manga. -
The thing that annoys me the most about this whole Haki thing is that Devil Fruits already had 2 great weaknesses, that were enough, and that made the fight still unfair for the one who doesn't have Logia fruits
Wait dude, isn't haki a weakness of pretty much just logias and guys like Luffy? DF powers still work, it's just that everyone can hit them on equal terms.
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Actually, you're right, although I was wrong not on that aspect.
Water and Waterstones don't make the user lose his powers
Forgot that -
Well can somebody else that agrees with you argue? I'm more interested in what they have to say after what you've continued to regurgitate.
@SGRaaize:Yes they have, because the logia defense, a thing that has been hyped by Oda countless times, is worthless now.
For the right reasons not at all taking away from the potential of future fights with logia users. It's like you didn't read the war arc.
Using water in a fight against Crocodile isn't hard its stupid
Water allowed Luffy to touch Croc. How are mirrors going to allow Luffy to bypass Kizru's intangibility?
Hum… So, let me reformulate
Of course Luffy can't beat Smoker yet, it would be stupid for him to be able to beat him nowYeah he can't beat Smoker now. Even if he can touch him with haki.
lol
It's funny because it's true.
Yes, If I watched something, I would watch something
Told you.
That wasn't a false pretense until some months ago, and it was followed by Oda (as far as we could see) until then
Months? Summer of last year you mean which isn't a few months.
Derp
Agreeing with me again?
And I have no problem with Gears, Oda could make 1000 more gears for all I care, just as long as they didn't do something stupid like go through someone's logia defense, nullify a Devil Fruit completely, make them teleport to another dimension, that kinda thing.
LOL @ comparing bypassing logia defense to teleporting to another dimension. I think only you have hyped the logia defense that much.
What I meant is that the opponents are getting stronger and stronger, meaning, he's facing stronger opponents and stronger opponents
Yeah and?
Its lame to you, is this really that hard to understand? Also: "HE'S ACTUALLY SURPRISED SOMETHING ODA HYPED FOR 400 CHAPTERS IS NOW COMPLETELY NULLIFIED AND POINTLESS, WHAT A JOKE"
Progression. The GODs will eventually be revealed to be shams eventually. It's the same thing with the shichibukai as far as being hyped for hundreds of chaps.
For you, maybe
And millions of others.
That was indeed pretty stupid of me.
And it wouldn't make much sense, either. DerpI knew it was stupid. You on the other hand thought it was interesting, entertaining, great, and made for an intense fight. I'm glad you changed your mind.
Its an awesome formula, one that works, and one that makes the battles tense
Not forever.
And you're forgetting it would be varied with a lot of other stuff, like Luffy VS Lutchi style of combats
The Lucci fight was not the same thing. Luffy didn't suddenly realize Lucci's weakness and beat him. That fight is not a variation of what we're talking about. This isn't just about Luffy being down and out and then rallying to win cuz that's still going to happen even when he uses haki. This is about him suddenly figuring out a logia's weakness and then beating them that way which would just be a bore.
you're also forgetting that after Luffy finds the weakness, the combat would do exactly what it would do if it didn't have Logia defense from then on
Que?
Good thing he has haki to do that from the start now.
So, you think Oda couldn't pull a simple formula off, with so many different logias?
I think Oda didn't want to bore his readers with a simple formula for the rest of the story but since you're saying he would go ahead and prove it
When he travels in light form, he seems to only be able to speed in a line, using a mirror to make that line change directions in something that would kill him, like water, or something that would make him tangible, like primstones, would be pretty awesome
LAWLS For all your talk about imagination and so many ways Oda could do it, you turn Kizaru in to a dumbass that hasn't mastered his DF.
I can't believe this is awesome to you. Sounds more like you just described a gag scene in the middle of a fight between Luffy and Kizaru.
That was after he sent Luffy down, he only found out he didn't die after Luffy was down in the ground
He ran. He has mantra. He didn't assume Luffy was dead.
But its one of the things that makes them the strongest Devil Fruits.
Just one. Controlling an element of nature with no limits still has them as top tiers once they master their ability.
Also, he will probably be an underdog until like the final battle.
We already agreed that he hasn't always been an underdog in every boss fight. If you're talking only about logia users it was obvious that for the ones known so far that he might fight he would not be the favorite.
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I wonder if Luffy will get some Haki moves unique to him.
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Just going to add that luffy also need haki to show that he can beat these people any time , any place.
Luffy beating a admiral thanks to a certain location or items is not going to cut it if he wants to be PK. -
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Well can somebody else that agrees with you argue? I'm more interested in what they have to say after what you've continued to regurgitate.
I'm also sick of discussing with you, if it makes you feel any better, but not because of you, its simple because we're going in circles
For the right reasons not at all taking away from the potential of future fights with logia users. It's like you didn't read the war arc.
What's that even supposed to mean? We didn't even see a 1 on 1 battle, the closest we had to that was Whitebeard vs one of the three admirals, where he gets one attack and then the Admiral disappears, lol.
Water allowed Luffy to touch Croc. How are mirrors going to allow Luffy to bypass Kizru's intangibility?
Not necessarily intangibility
Yeah he can't beat Smoker now. Even if he can touch him with haki.
Yeah, lol.
I'm not sure where you're going with thisIt's funny because it's true.
No, its funny because its wrong
Told you.
Alright then
Months? Summer of last year you mean which isn't a few months.
This discussion got so pointless you're actually aggressive when I fail at remembering a date.
Agreeing with me again?
How could you possible imagine that "Derp" means that I agree with you?
LOL @ comparing bypassing logia defense to teleporting to another dimension. I think only you have hyped the logia defense that much.
Although they're obviously incomparable, they're both very annoying. Also, hey, they'd make the battles quicker.
Yeah and?
That he'l still be a ragdoll to guys like Akainu by the time he gets to fight them
Progression. The GODs will eventually be revealed to be shams eventually. It's the same thing with the shichibukai as far as being hyped for hundreds of chaps.
Luffy bypassing Logias with an easy way out is annoying and goes against what Oda established in the beginning (YOU CAN'T TOUCH LOGIAS, OMG)
The Shichibukais were established from the beginning fairly well with Crocodile, and any twists on them would be related to the story, as I'm discussing combat.
Meaning, they'd have to somehow turn out to be Pirates that are weak to rubber for you to be able to compare the plot progression of both.And millions of others.
I'm not in those millions, which is what this entire wall of text boils down to
I knew it was stupid. You on the other hand thought it was interesting, entertaining, great, and made for an intense fight. I'm glad you changed your mind.
I still do, but it'd make Kizaru completely invincible and would make me contradict myself
Not forever.
Oda could pull it off
The Lucci fight was not the same thing. Luffy didn't suddenly realize Lucci's weakness and beat him. That fight is not a variation of what we're talking about. This isn't just about Luffy being down and out and then rallying to win cuz that's still going to happen even when he uses haki. This is about him suddenly figuring out a logia's weakness and then beating them that way which would just be a bore.
I know its not the same thing, that's why I said its varied with the battles that would be against logias and exploring weaknesses
Que?
Good thing he has haki to do that from the start now.
It'd just add one good layer of tension, are you really that worried about losing 5 chapters to a concept as good as
I think Oda didn't want to bore his readers with a simple formula for the rest of the story but since you're saying he would go ahead and prove it
Prove you with what? Oda obviously didn't want to do so, because then he wouldn't have introduced Haki, but he could pull it off
LAWLS For all your talk about imagination and so many ways Oda could do it, you turn Kizaru in to a dumbass that hasn't mastered his DF.
I can't believe this is awesome to you. Sounds more like you just described a gag scene in the middle of a fight between Luffy and Kizaru.
That's because I'm not Oda.
He ran. He has mantra. He didn't assume Luffy was dead.
He probably did until he fell to the ground and was still alive
Just one. Controlling an element of nature with no limits still has them as top tiers once they master their ability.
But one, nonetheless, that will be completely ignored from now on
We already agreed that he hasn't always been an underdog in every boss fight. If you're talking only about logia users it was obvious that for the ones known so far that he might fight he would not be the favorite.
He'l be the underdog of the most important battles, most likely
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Many big shots, like some of the WBs, know and can use haki, yes, we know that.
But they don't master it, as they need to really concentrate to use it. That's why Vista didn't cut Akainu. And that's why they can't teach others. If they could, why didn't WB commanders teach their crew? I mean, the Kujas teach their people, don't they? Heck, I don't think all the commanders can use haki. I mean, did Ace use haki against Blackbeard?
Only few people really mastered it, like Rayleigh, Shanks, Boa, and other Kujas. Those are the only people who can teach haki to Luffy, assuming Luffy will learn it from other person.
edit: oops, did I write on the wrong thread?
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Many big shots, like some of the WBs, know and can use haki, yes, we know that.
But they don't master it, as they need to really concentrate to use it. That's why Vista didn't cut Akainu. And that's why they can't teach others. If they could, why didn't WB commanders teach their crew? I mean, the Kujas teach their people, don't they? Heck, I don't think all the commanders can use haki. I mean, did Ace use haki against Blackbeard?
Only few people really mastered it, like Rayleigh, Shanks, Boa, and other Kujas. Those are the only people who can teach haki to Luffy, assuming Luffy will learn it from other person.
edit: oops, did I write on the wrong thread?
The WB Pirates not mastering Haki is pure speculation. If anything, as old as they all are in one of the leading groups of the world I think it is more likely that they have "mastered" their Haki. But the thing is Haki is only a tiny portion of a fight and doesn't mean auto win/advantage over someone. An example would be the Boa sisters who grew up with it most of thier lives.
We no nothing about how the WB's would go about teaching someone else. I think that thought should be droped right now.
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Wait, so there was actually one guy that wanted that bullshit of "Find weakness to beat the logia" crap every time Luffy face an elemental person!?
Btw how exactly do you people think Aokiji and Kizaru nullified the damage of two direct hits by WB and/or Akainu was still unaffected by Marco and Vista killer hits when Croc clearly took that Jozu tackle as a normal human?