Kishimoto to me hasn't improved at all.
Best improvement in artwork
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Naruto has gotten waaaaaaay worse.
Granted it got better then the start, but it's gone down the shitter since then.Improvement wise Oda and Inoue are big ones.
ODA:
Just look at Oda's backgrounds. Hell look at the proportions of Zoro in comparison to the houses.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/12/06/And 29 volumes later.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/290/06-07/INOUE:
His art for Real and Vagabond has changed styles but in terms of pure artistic improvement you gotta see Slam Dunk.
http://www.onemanga.com/Slam_Dunk/5/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Slam_Dunk/261/19/
Or for the artists rather then series compare that first SD scan to this Vagabond one.
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I think Kazuki Takahashi (Yu-Gi-Oh), and Hiroyuki Takei (Shaman King) improved greatly in so little time when they were doing their series.
Definitely.
I mean Yugi didn't even have a nose to speak of in the earliest chapters.
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His art for Real and Vagabond has changed styles but in terms of pure artistic improvement you gotta see Slam Dunk.
I agree with you there, completely. I remember going from the anime ending to where the story left off in the manga and literally going "Holy SHit!" @ how different the art was from what I read back in the early volumes. The facial expressions were all photorealistic in every scene!
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Apparently there's a D.V.D that shows Inou drawing a whole entire volume of Vagabond…I want to get that d.v.d that way I can watch mastery in process.
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I wish Vagabond was more popular. Its soooo good and comes out pretty regularly. At least faster than berserk, lol. Theres not even a big thread about it or anything. Id love a vagabond video game or other merch also. :)
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Definitely.
I mean Yugi didn't even have a nose to speak of in the earliest chapters.
It would randomly disappear and then reappear (sometimes in the same chapters.) But, I also agree.
His most recent art, like the stuff he draws for the bunkoban reprints, is nothing short of amazing.
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It would randomly disappear and then reappear (sometimes in the same chapters.) But, I also agree.
His most recent art, like the stuff he draws for the bunkoban reprints, is nothing short of amazing.
Holy shit that's awesome looking
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The art in Yugioh was always pretty good. The style wasnt perfected until later but it was never bad imho. Kazuki(I think thats his name) always took the tougher, more detailed road with the art. Especially for a weekly series he was writing on his own! He even does that stylish inking!
I wish Vagabond was more popular. Its soooo good
Vagabond does well in Japan, but like I said in the other thread. It's really nothing great imho. Inoue-sensei is soooo much better at doing his own original stories. I bought like, five volumes of Vagabond and was bored most of the time despite the gorgeous art. "Real" on the other hand, caught my attention with the very first chapter.
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Yudetamago of the Kinnikuman fame. They went from the simple, cartoonish style of Kinnikuman to an incredibilty detailed style for Nesei (Ultimate Muscle), which is even noticable when you compare the two anime series.
Kinnikuman: http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/2833/kinnikuman/chapter.52511/page.2/
Kinnikuman Nesei: http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/738/kinnikuman_ii_sei/chapter.24750/page.3/I would use better examples but since Nesei has many Kinnikuman spoilers, i'd rather not use some random scene.
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there's a series I would like to get back into.
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One other series that I think improved
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It hasn't had a major change, but I'll mention that GANTZ has gotten more detail over the years.
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@Ao:
The art in Yugioh was always pretty good. The style wasnt perfected until later but it was never bad imho. Kazuki(I think thats his name) always took the tougher, more detailed road with the art. Especially for a weekly series he was writing on his own! He even does that stylish inking!
Vagabond does well in Japan, but like I said in the other thread. It's really nothing great imho. Inoue-sensei is soooo much better at doing his own original stories. I bought like, five volumes of Vagabond and was bored most of the time despite the gorgeous art. "Real" on the other hand, caught my attention with the very first chapter.
Vagabond doesn't get good until Volume 6. And it doesn't get really good until Vol. 11. The first four volumes, especially the first two are kinda eh.
But all the earlier volumes get better with reading the rest.
Real had a weak start too really, Inoue throws too many scenarios and characters at you too suddenly, it gets really good once you get used to your surroundings and things pace out well.
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I'm slowly getting into Vagabond, it's a rather interesting read I'm done with volume 1 and so far i'm liking it alot. I now want to read that book it's based on just to see how similar the two are
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Real had a weak start too really, Inoue throws too many scenarios and characters at you too suddenly, it gets really good once you get used to your surroundings and things pace out well.
Didn't feel that way at all. The opening focuses primarily on the main character and then reaches back and brings some of the minor characters from those stories into the spotlight, so I guess it can take a second to connect who is who, but it's pretty easy to follow but still entertaining. Just…way to many people getting into car accidents within a SINGLE volume! It's no more confusing than the average teenage JDrama, which is what that series strongly resembles anyway.
Real gets all the main characters and their backgrounds tied together in the opening volume, while Vagabond is the exact opposite. The slow pacing is deliberate but...after I got adjusted to the gorgeous art there wasn't much to keep me reading and hearing I'd have to purchase TEN volumes to get to the good stuff makes me sound like I got out in time to save a chunk of time and money. And I dunno...unless it's the hands-down , best samurai series ever. I dont feel the need to commit to it to that extent.
I'd be less harsh on Vagabond if the main character were able to carry the entire series by himself. But he's just another stoic, badass type. And I'm a fan of Musashi Miyamoto! History is vague surrounding his personality but he was known as a bit of an eccentric character. I would've liked Inoue-sensei, who is GREAT with characterization and quirks to give an original take on the samurai legend. I needed something to make it standout opposed to series like Blade of the Immortal or Berserk, which I kind of liked better anyway. Don't get me wrong. It's a totally solid series from the start, it just doesnt strike me as comment-worthy unless you just LOVE samurai stuff.
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I allways give series the benefit of a doubt, some series just don't start off awesome but end up becoming awesome like One Piece for example to me didn't pick up until about volume 5 which I believe would be the baratie arc.
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]Didn't feel that way at all. The opening focuses primarily on the main character and then reaches back and brings some of the minor characters from those stories into the spotlight, so I guess it can take a second to connect who is who, but it's pretty easy to follow but still entertaining.
It's not that it's hard to follow, it's that it's like being dropped in the middle of a warzone. You have to adjust to so much all of a sudden. None of the stuff in the first volume interested me until Takahashi get's in the hospital.
Inoue paced the start poorly, but once he slowed his gears way down it started becoming amazing. The three main characters stories became clear and there was no more structural nuttiness.
Real gets all the main characters and their backgrounds tied together in the opening volume, while Vagabond is the exact opposite.
Real doesn't get into it's groove until it establishes it's basic structure, which doesn't really become apparent until volume 2.
Vagabond would have been dumb to show all it's main characters right off the bat. Kojiro's revealing is part of the later series charm.
Otherwise, you get Musashi, Takuan, Otsu, and Matahachi. That's pretty much the main cast in the first book.
Not that I think Vagabond's first two volumes are good (they're boring and Musashi is a cliche at that point.) it ahs nothing to do with pacing at all.
Once Musashi stops being a dull shonen meathead the series gets good.
But I'm glad he was a dull meathead because it makes his later personality cooler in contrast.The slow pacing is deliberate but…after I got adjusted to the gorgeous art there wasn't much to keep me reading and hearing I'd have to purchase TEN volumes to get to the good stuff makes me sound like I got out in time to save a chunk of time and money.
Or you could read it online and see if you actually care. I did this with Real, Berserk, and any other series I've ever purchased.
I'd be less harsh on Vagabond if the main character were able to carry the entire series by himself. But he's just another stoic, badass type.
He changes completely. He's more like Takuan later on. Vagabond actually has a dynamic lead.
Part of the series greatness is watching him change.
Getting his ass kicked in Vol.5 triggers it.And I'm a fan of Musashi Miyamoto! History is vague surrounding his personality but he was known as a bit of an eccentric character. I would've liked Inoue-sensei, who is GREAT with characterization and quirks to give an original take on the samurai legend.
He has, it's very different from the book. Kojiro is virtually a completely different character then the book's one among other things.
The bottom line is you can't really criticize it on anything but not hooking you. You haven't read enough.
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I allways give series the benefit of a doubt, some series just don't start off awesome but end up becoming awesome like One Piece for example to me didn't pick up until about volume 5 which I believe would be the baratie arc.
OP is literally the ONLY series I've seen that took this long to get really going+improved enough that it's worth sitting through the early, more mediocre stuff. Because of OP I try to give other series an equally long chance, but it has yet to pay off as much with ANY other series. I gave Bleach 101 episodes to improve and now I completely regret it.
It's not that it's hard to follow, it's that it's like being dropped in the middle of a warzone. You have to adjust to so much all of a sudden. None of the stuff in the first volume interested me until Takahashi get's in the hospital.
That's LITERALLY how Vagabond starts–dropping you into the middle of a huge war conflict.
And the part you're talking about is in the first chapter. Saying it got interesting midway through chapter one is still pretty good. I also enjoyed that I still didn't know exactly where the story might be going after volume one. There were a lot of directions he could take it.Or you could read it online and see if you actually care. I did this with Real, Berserk, and any other series I've ever purchased.
If I read that much of a series I'm probably not going to buy it,ever. And if it's not good enough for me to purchase, I probably won't waste my time. All t he stuff i read online either isn't released in english yet or has such a horribly-written translation it hurts to read the official version. But I might give it a second try. It's really personal preferrence here. I burn out on ultra-violence really quickly unless the story is surprising me or the characters are entertaining enough that I don't care about the narrative so much.
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OP is literally the ONLY series I've seen that took this long to get really going+improved enough that it's worth sitting through the early, more mediocre stuff.
This isn't an argument.
Because of OP I try to give other series an equally long chance, but it has yet to pay off as much with ANY other series. I gave Bleach 101 episodes to improve and now I completely regret it.
I don't see what your getting at. If your defending your right to stop caring fine, but if your justifying your mere five volume experience as legit grounds to criticize the series as a whole then your not getting any water out of that stone.
That's LITERALLY how Vagabond starts–dropping you into the middle of a huge war conflict.
Yup.
And the part you're talking about is in the first chapter. Saying it got interesting midway through chapter one is still pretty good.
What?
Takahashi gets in the hospital near the end of the first book. Not the first chapter. Real is amazing, don't think I hate it or feel meh about it, but I do think the majority of the first book is kinda messy.I also enjoyed that I still didn't know exactly where the story might be going after volume one. There were a lot of directions he could take it.
You enjoyed that?
If I read that much of a series I'm probably not going to buy it,ever. And if it's not good enough for me to purchase, I probably won't waste my time. All t he stuff i read online either isn't released in english yet or has such a horribly-written translation it hurts to read the official version.
Fine, but don't whine about Vagabond then.
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I don't see what your getting at. If your defending your right to stop caring fine, but if your justifying your mere five volume experience as legit grounds to criticize the series as a whole then your not getting any water out of that stone.
I'm saying if you aren't enjoying a series for the first BATCH of volumes, it's unlikely it's going to change so drastically that you enjoy it after even MORE of the series. OP is the only time I've seen that happened, but meh..Berserk doesnt get any good until the band of the Hawk story either, so it's possible, albeit VERY unlikely.
Like I said, I'll eventually give it a second chance. But I'm not holding my breath or anything…
And I though u meant the hospital scene from the first chapter. Like I said, LOTS of scenes with car accidents and people going through rehabilitation in REAL.
You enjoyed that?
Uh…YEAH!
1.If you dont know what's going to happen next, you're more likely to check out the next book just to see where it's going.
2. Not being able to predict what direction the story is going usually means the story hasn't reached a cliched plateu where it's already become predictable. It's definitely a plus when I can't see every story beat coming a mile away.Fine, but don't whine about Vagabond then.
You're the one whining about it's merits. I was outright bashing the damn thing.
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Mentioned already, but Hagiwara's art in Bastard! had some fairly big improvements.
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Though there's a fairly large time between the sets (but Hagiwara has had quite a few years of breaks in all.)
Oh! Great is another mangaka with impressive improvement.
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Also impressive that he's doing both Air Gear (weekly) and Tenjou Tenge (monthly) simutaneously, both having much higher quality art relative to his earlier works.
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damn both of them have improved. Another artist I think got better is the mangaka for D.gray man alot of people say that she's gotten worse but I believe that her style is only getting more and more perfected by every chapter.
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I'm saying if you aren't enjoying a series for the first BATCH of volumes, it's unlikely it's going to change so drastically that you enjoy it after even MORE of the series.
Berserk, One Piece, Vagabond, Lone Wolf and Cub, Dragonball, and the reverse with Bleach where the first batch was great and it became horrible right after that.
And I though u meant the hospital scene from the first chapter. Like I said, LOTS of scenes with car accidents and people going through rehabilitation in REAL.
See you can't even keep track of what happen.
1.If you dont know what's going to happen next, you're more likely to check out the next book just to see where it's going.
That's true of plot points, not of basic character recognition and structural confusion.
2. Not being able to predict what direction the story is going usually means the story hasn't reached a cliched plateu where it's already become predictable. It's definitely a plus when I can't see every story beat coming a mile away.
This has nothing at all to do with plot, everything to do with pacing and structure. If anything I found the first volume very cliche in terms of beats. As soon as Takahashi is hit by the truck you know he's going to go through a transformation and probably end up joining the Tigers. You immediatly know that Togawa will inadvertently be Nomiya's salvation.
It's seeing how expertly, and detailed the progress of these people is that makes up the meat and potatoes of the rest of the volumes. And the actual good stuff.
Real isn't a mystery story, none of it's appeal is about surprise.
You're the one whining about it's merits. I was outright bashing the damn thing.
You read 5 volumes, I've read 29. Think about this for a moment.
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^You're stating your opinon as fact and then acting like I'm missing something. I already said I'd give it a second chance, dude. Give it a rest.
Also, I personally lOVED the opening chapter to One Piece. It was the following chapters that took things down a notch for me. So there was always potential that kept me reading for a while.I enjoy Berserk but it's not one of my all-time-top-favorites or anything. You can usually see potential in a series to be something really great and different from the beginning in one way or another. I already said Vagabond is a decent series, just nothing spectacular I could enthusiastically recommend. Even if the series improves some in a few volumes and I start following the series, I dont see my opinion doing a complete 180 or anything. With what it is, the best it could be is a really well done but not groundbreaking series. And you have to REALLY be doing something special for me to love you as a series.
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I think vagabond is a really good read just my two cents
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^You're stating your opinon as fact and then acting like I'm missing something.
24 somethings to be precise.
I enjoy Berserk but it's not one of my all-time-top-favorites or anything. You can usually see potential in a series to be something really great and different from the beginning in one way or another.
Berserk has a pretty dumb start that in no way hints at the rest of it.
I already said Vagabond is a decent series, just nothing spectacular I could enthusiastically recommend.
Why would people be listening to someone whose only read five books of a 30 something continuing serial.
Even if the series improves some in a few volumes and I start following the series, I dont see my opinion doing a complete 180 or anything. With what it is, the best it could be is a really well done but not groundbreaking series. And you have to REALLY be doing something special for me to love you as a series.
Why are you still arguing this. It's as pointless and empty as trying to make Slam Dunk out to be a slice of life series.
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^SD does have slice of life and romantic comedy elements. You're just really thick-headed. Like I said, PROFESSIONAL ANN reviewer's opinion>Deltron's, guy.
And having a weak start does hurt the overall series. I still fault OP for most of the early east blue stuff. Thing is OP has close to a thousand chapters of amazing, so it's a special case. I doubt Vagabond will last that long or be THAt good. Berserk is a good series but not worth nearly the praise people here lavish on it, either.
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I personally dislike ANN and believe that there a bunch of snobs.
Edit: Get to the Tozoin Temple and Yagyu Temple storys and your mind will change about it….maybe.
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^SD does have slice of life and romantic comedy elements.
So does Neon Genesis Evangelion, in fact it has more.
But anyone who tries to say that's it's genre should be slapped.You're just really thick-headed. Like I said, PROFESSIONAL ANN reviewer's opinion>Deltron's, guy.
Aokiji, tired of using popularity fallacies, falls back on the tried and true appeal to authority fallacy.
Besides you said this dude only said that SD volume 1 resembles a slice of life story in some ways (which I still think is bullshit given how every element is centered around basketball). He never said the series was slice of life, especially given how he was only talking about the first book of 31.
You want an example of slice of life? Real is slice of life. The basketball is entirely there to serve the life aspects, which is completely in reverse for Slam Dunk.
And having a weak start does hurt the overall series.
Vagabond's start is much more enjoyable in retrospect, because of how comparative it is. Seeing Musashi be the way he is makes the way he is later cooler. It shows how far he's come.
The whole Yoshioka storyline later enriches volume 3 significantly.The same is true with One Piece. I gaurentee the Arlong Arc will be ten times cooler then it already is after we get into the Fishman arc.
I still fault OP for most of the early east blue stuff. Thing is OP has close to a thousand chapters of amazing, so it's a special case. I doubt Vagabond will last that long or be THAt good.
You act like the first bunch of Vagabond volumes were horrible, they were awkward and "meh" at worst. I thought volume 5 was actually pretty good even. Especially given the following two books.
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Aokiji, tired of using popularity fallacies, falls back on the tried and true appeal to authority fallacy.
wanwanwan!! I don't care what anyone says, even if they're a professional and thus more informed and a much more reliable source than me! What dont you get, asshole?! I dont care who says it–I'm right! Bawlbawl!
Besides you said this dude only said that SD volume 1 resembles a slice of life story in some ways (which I still think is bullshit given how every element is centered around basketball).
Wanwan! my BRAINS can not grasp the idea of different genre elements all being contained in one little show!! I mean, there's no way a story could start off more like a romantic comedy and slowly ebb towards being an action sports one. And this could never have been an INTENTIONAL device used by the author in order to sell them on the character drama before launching into a somewhat unpopular gimmick.
Inoue-sensei focused the narrative around the characters in SD before shifting the focus of the series to basketball because at the time he started the series, it was the equivalent of doing an American sports movie based on Hurling. The average Japanese wasn't interested or familiar with the sport. He had to make the characters interesting and entertaining so you would be interested regardless of the gimmick. Thus, the opening volumes feel much more characters based/slice of life.
The only serious difference in style between REAL and Slam Dunk! is SD is much more comedic, while Real skews abit more towards drama, occasionally melodramatic. The antics on and off the court influence each other just as much in both shows. SD just gives you a lot more on the court stuff later in the series.
You act like the first bunch of Vagabond volumes were horrible
Mileage may vary depending on taste. Personally cliche is the worst offense to me. I'd rather have a series attempt uniqueness but be a huge mess than be a tightly planned series that never surprises you or does anything to really stand out.
Way to hijack the thread btw. I think I've said my peace, sooo…
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wan wan
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wanwanwan!!
Why are you barking at me in japanese.
I don't care what anyone says, even if they're a professional and thus more informed and a much more reliable source than me!
So are you upholding the fallacy? Or making some dumb statement about how kickin' apathetic you are.
What dont you get, asshole?! I dont care who says it–I'm right! Bawlbawl!
Except you aren't and I have explained why. Unless of course there is some flaw in my findings you could point out.
Wanwan!
Woof Woof to you too.
my BRAINS can not grasp the idea of different genre elements all being contained in one little show!!
Slam Dunk has no slice of life given that it's all revolved around the basketball. It's like maybe .0008 slice of life.
This is like trying to pass China off as russian country because it has a microscopic russian ethnic population.
It's like the points in Whose Line Is It Anyway.
I mean, there's no way a story could start off more like a romantic comedy and slowly ebb towards being an action sports one.
Slam Dunk was a sports manga within four chapters. And all the "non" sports stuff is setting up for sports. The introduction of Rukawa and slam dunking, and the point of the romance is to get Sakuragi motivated to play basketball. If you don't get that you don't get storytelling.
And this could never have been an INTENTIONAL device used by the author in order to sell them on the character drama before launching into a somewhat unpopular gimmick.
Or it could be a plot device used to get a typical high school hoodlum onto a basketball team, come to think of it, that's exactly what is was because that's exactly what every inch of it resulted in.
Is Harry Potter dicking around at the Dursley house a device to hook people on a character before getting to what everyone wants to see (MAGICSCHOOL)? No it's a basic part of simple storytelling. Almost every basic story has a period like this. Think of any one.
Inoue-sensei focused the narrative around the characters in SD before shifting the focus of the series to basketball because at the time he started the series, it was the equivalent of doing an American sports movie based on Hurling.
Even though he clearly sets up as being about basketball in chapter one?
Try again.
Again, starting outside the genre world is basic goddamn storytelling.The average Japanese wasn't interested or familiar with the sport. He had to make the characters interesting and entertaining so you would be interested regardless of the gimmick. Thus, the opening volumes feel much more characters based/slice of life.
Slam Dunk was never character based. Even these "slice of life" portions are blatant slapstick comedy. Not character drama.
Excepting maybe the gang fight part. But that was volumes later anyway.
The only serious difference in style between REAL and Slam Dunk! is SD is much more comedic, while Real skews abit more towards drama,
ahahahahaha
They're completely different.
Compleetly.
Slam Dunk is like 90% basketball.
Real is maybe 10% basketball.Basketball couldn't be used more differently in them. In one it's the entire focus, in the other it's a vague thematic metaphor that you don't even need to give a damn about physically speaking to be fully engaged in the story.
occasionally melodramatic.
Don't even begin comparing them on this count.
The antics on and off the court influence each other just as much in both shows.
This is basically the stupidest thing you've said yet. This is so blatantly untrue to anyone whose read these two series it's not even funny.
Off the court antics in Slam Dunk are ALL about the on court. Training, meeting other teams, studying for games, getting new team members.Stop fucking jerking off over and balooning Slam Dunk to ridiculous proportions it under no circumstance remotely resembles.
It's embarassing to watch. It's a fun exciting sports comic, and you just have to ruin it with fandom bullshit by trying to force it in boxes it doesn't belong.
SD just gives you a lot more on the court stuff later in the series.
You know, fuck it. You haven't even read Real have you.
Personally cliche is the worst offense to me.
Then why the hell do you liek Slam Dunk so much. It's unabashingly cliche.
I'd rather have a series attempt uniqueness but be a huge mess than be a tightly planned series that never surprises you or does anything to really stand out.
Slam Dunk has a unique subject matter and not one thing more.
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My point is you're not adamantly arguing your point so much as beating other people over the head with your opinions.
You're also really fuzzy about the difference between genres and genre-elements and a gimmick or concept.Look at Yuyu Hakusho, that's certainly a fantasy fighting epic, but you wouldn't be able to tell from the first batch of stories at all, would you? Stories range from romantic comedy to Yakuza teen-punk stories with the supernatural element as a backdrop.
Slam Dunk has a unique subject matter and not one thing more.
I couldnt care less about Basketball and yet, SOMEHOW SD is my favorite shonen manga. Funny how that works, eh? Not to mention, everyone I've shown SD doesnt care about basketball and loves the show, either for the a)really well done physical comedy or b)the really welldone and recognizable and charming cast of characters.
Slam Dunk! Could be about mecha or farming and the diverse cast would still drive the show, not the damn basketball.
Slam Dunk has no slice of life given that it's all revolved around the basketball. It's like maybe .0008 slice of life.
Remember volume two focusing totally around Sakuragi and the Judo captain?? That was ALLLL about B-ball. You're definitely right.
Slam Dunk was a sports manga within four chapters. And all the "non" sports stuff is setting up for sports. The introduction of Rukawa and slam dunking, and the point of the romance is to get Sakuragi motivated to play basketball. If you don't get that you don't get storytelling.
Why're you quoting me to totally agree with what I said so angrily?
throws out fishing rod towards topic-
So, I think BECK;s art improved a TON from the first few volumes to the photorealism of the middle and final ones.
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Slam Dunk was never character based. Even these "slice of life" portions are blatant slapstick comedy. Not character drama.
LOL! I know I laughed when Sakuragi's dad had a heart attack. And when Mitsui broke his ankle and when Akagi played on his broken ankle…non.stop.giggles. Or when the coach had the heart attack. DAMN that sssslapstick!! Had me in stitches the whole way through.
It's unabashingly
unabashedlyis the word there, Webster.
The only reason you may feel a modicum of cliche in SD is because it's an OLD series that has been raped when creating characters and relationship dynamics for other series(Naruto…cough).
Despite that, you seem to be missing the original elements, like the real love story being the big brother relationship between Hanamichi and Akagi or how Basketball teaches Sakuragi to be a better, more focused, less selfish human being.And despite the goofiness, the characters are true to life, which you seem to not pick up on at all. That's a big part of the reason the series has a strong slice of life-ish feel to it in the opening chapters, the characters and their relationships to one another ring pretty true. They're exaggerated for comic effect, but they still resemble humans.
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I personally dislike ANN and believe that there a bunch of snobs.
Agreed. They're pretty much just good for info and assorted little stuff. I mean, they have a whole reccurring feature of a bunch of them just chatting about random shit, like it's relevant, just because they managed to group a bunch of women who're into anime together.
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FTR, I take back what I said earlier about Berserk.
After you trudge through the long-winded fillerish arcs, the payoff arcs are so ridiculously brilliant, it's worth it. I guess filler arcs are necessary evil even when doing a manga sometimes, if you need really tight writing and character designs and all that for the bIG story arcs. Still Berserk is fantasy, so they have the luxury of being able to recreate the rules of their worlds, not to mention they both have semi-unique conepts to begin with.I'm not interested in this quasi-argument anymore since Deltron seems to lose track of what exactly he's arguing about and why, but I did want to point out that Berserk is pretty damn sweet. I get annoyed personally @ that fanbase because a lot of ppl seem to fap to that series because OMFG SEX!!GORE!!VIOLENCIA!!! But the best aspect of that series is really the storytelling.
My point about SD was that a great story isn't a necessity to a GREAT manga, though. Many of my favorite series have simplistic gimmicks and day-to-day stories and the reason they become interesting is because the characters themselves are layered and entertaining. Seeing someone like Sakuragi even put on his damn uniform becomes entertaining as hell because of his personality.
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My point is you're not adamantly arguing your point so much as beating other people over the head with your opinions.
The only difference is one is MEANYER.
And I don't care.You're also really fuzzy about the difference between genres and genre-elements and a gimmick or concept.
When have I mentioned gimmicks?
Look at Yuyu Hakusho, that's certainly a fantasy fighting epic, but you wouldn't be able to tell from the first batch of stories at all, would you? Stories range from romantic comedy to Yakuza teen-punk stories with the supernatural element as a backdrop.
And yet this doesn't make those characterize YYH. This even more true of Slam Dunk's mesely entirely basketball related slapstick high school content it has for four whole massive lumbering chapters before diving into b-ball.
I couldnt care less about Basketball and yet, SOMEHOW SD is my favorite shonen manga. Funny how that works, eh? Not to mention, everyone I've shown SD doesnt care about basketball and loves the show, either for the a)really well done physical comedy or b)the really welldone and recognizable and charming cast of characters.
Bullshit, I guarantee they were involved in the action of the games, the characters are directly tied to that, the two are nigh inseperable.
I don't give a fuck about basketball either and was caught up in the games. Largely because I like the people playing them yes.Slam Dunk! Could be about mecha or farming and the diverse cast would still drive the show, not the damn basketball.
Slam Dunk has completely one dimensional characters that's purpose are to charm people with thier catchy one faceted personality and move around performing a competeitive action which is absolute dead center of the series.
I asked this endlessly on the last thread, count how long each game is.
Come to fucking think of it have you even read the whole damn thing?
Remember volume two focusing totally around Sakuragi and the Judo captain?? That was ALLLL about B-ball. You're definitely right.
Hm yes, testing the resolve of the chararters flimsy motivation to join the team is not at all about basketball.
God, people like you are a writers dream, you couldn't see the strings and wires going on behind a story if your life depended on it.
Why're you quoting me to totally agree with what I said so angrily?
Because I don't? Don't run away from your point like you weren't trying to sneak Slam Dunk into a different genre by pointing out things that barely matter and almost certainly revolve around basketball anyway.
throws out fishing rod towards topic-
Responds again a post or two later
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LOL! I know I laughed when Sakuragi's dad had a heart attack.
Y'know, I wouldn't bring up a vague page or so of flashback of some sort that is never again referenced in the entire series outside of that one chapter as evidence for anything except how weak Inoue's non b-ball writing was in those days.
And when Mitsui broke his ankle and when Akagi played on his broken ankle…non.stop.giggles.
These directly involve the basketball you moron.
Or when the coach had the heart attack. DAMN that sssslapstick!! Had me in stitches the whole way through.
The hospital scenes were pure slapstick. I'm not even kidding.
The only reason you may feel a modicum of cliche in SD is because it's an OLD series that
It's early fucking 90's.
has been raped when creating characters and relationship dynamics for other series(Naruto…cough).
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS.
No fucking way. I'm gonna balloon that up so people skimming these mega posts see it.
Hey folks, This guy thinks Slam Dunk invented it's character archetypes and dynamics. He fucking really thinks this. Yes I'm serious. Not even kidding.
The half drooling OP fans in the manga section don't have the audacity to say that shit, not even Phenomonyl has the audacity to say that.
Despite that, you seem to be missing the original elements,
It's about basketball! Basketball wasn't/isn't popular in japan!
like the real love story being the big brother relationship between Hanamichi and Akagi
This isn't unique you child.
or how Basketball teaches Sakuragi to be a better, more focused, less selfish human being.
Are you trolling me?
I'm serious here.
And despite the goofiness, the characters are true to life,
Yes, much like any exagerrated stereotype is.
The only character who was in anyway lifelike was Mitsui, and that was because he barely had a personality to exagerrate once he was de-thugged.That's a big part of the reason the series has a strong slice of life-ish feel to it in the opening chapters, the characters and their relationships to one another ring pretty true. They're exaggerated for comic effect, but they still resemble humans.
You need to get off your ass and go read/watch/play/idontcare stories. Now and certainly before even thinking of responding to me again.
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Watsuki (the guy that did Ruroken and Busou Renkin) I believe he's gotten pretty damn good over the years
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This post is deleted!
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^yeah I actually really like the Cowboy manga he did. The art atleast, I think the story was pretty meh…
I dun wanna reveal my identity on this board or anything, but trust me...Deltron you need to take a few more writing classes, guy. You're missing the the beef and focusing on the soup of the story.
You seem to be misunderstanding the points I'm making and kind of contradicting the points you're trying to argue yourself along the way.FTR, BASKETBALL isnt a genre, toughguy. "Comedy, Action, Slice-of-Life, Romance," those are story genres...
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Watsuki is kinda like Takei, they both have their really good manga ( Ruroken, Shaman King) and everything else just doesn't make it. Well at least Busou Renkin got to be around 10 volumes and I have no idea on how well embalming is doin.
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I dun wanna reveal my identity on this board or anything, but trust me…Deltron you need to take a few more writing classes, guy.
I'm a Screen/playwriting major.
The hell are you.You're missing the the beef and focusing on the soup of the story.
And in a typical shonen it's nearly all soup.
SD? Mostly soup.
Real? Mostly beef.Your delusional if you think SD has much beef at all.
You seem to be misunderstanding the points I'm making and kind of contradicting the points you're trying to argue yourself along the way.
That's fascinating, how about you point these out for me.
FTR, BASKETBALL isnt a genre, toughguy. "Comedy, Action, Slice-of-Life, Romance," those are story genres…
Action isn't really a genre either. Unless your writing education involved Blockbuster aisles.
SD is in the sports genre. Which you were splooging over before when talking about how it was a trailblazer. -
You should really give it up. You're going on arguing about how I was trying to paint SD as slice-of-life when I NEVER SAID THAT. I said it contained elements of slice-of-life as well as romantic comedy and even gangster manga, which you already agreed with as your whole flimsy argument degraded around you.
you really missed the point of what I was saying for the same reason you dont "get" what SD does that's special but fap to something like Vagabond so hard; YOUR COMPREHENSION IS very, very, very shallow/low. WTF Is that shit about the characters in SD all being cliche? Stop brandishing words you don't fully comprehend, please? In 1990 none of those archtypes had been used to the point of oversaturation especially not in the way the series presents them. I think you should actually read manga from the late 80's before you make a statement like that. A big part of the reason Dragonball and SD became the most popular series of the time was because they were genrebending series in the first place.
Even now, have you even read a decent amount of sports series? They tend to kick off with the middle of a game or match, not the way SD with fleshed out character introduction after character introduction. Even that statement about Mistui being the only realistic character because he has no descernable personality was dumb.Unabashinly dumb. The characters in SD have a genuine feel to their personalities because their relationships with one another are complex, genius. Relationships aren't cut and dry and there are tons of misunderstandings between characters. And even the characters who in this day and age border on cliche like Rukawa(which is mainly because modern shonen manga uses that archtype in EVERY other series) still have unique nuances and character quirks that seem to be totally lost on you.
Have there been dark-haired, cooler than thou, prettyboy shonen rivals before SD? Yes.
Were they narcoleptic ones? FUCK No. By your shallow and flawed definition of cliche, every damn protagonist in OP is cliche because those character types existed before. Cliche is when the concept has been used to the point of oversaturation!Do you know how many people I know who suck at their Major and are still passing all their classes? Don't trot that bullshit out like it gives you any sort of authority or creedance here. Your supernova of convoluted arguments and flimsy tower of bullshit should have ended when I said, I would give Vagabond a second try. Yet you keep trying to make this argument that SD is suuuuch an inferior series when it's really just not your personal taste.
Sakuragi is a cliche character? Such EPIC Bullshit. Yes, in the sense that there have been series with thug protagonist but that's where the similarities end. Inoue-sensei gave him the lion's share of distinctive character quirks, the same way ODa does with every damn character in OP, in order to make him stand out as unique. The way Toriyama and Inoue took genres which authors tended to skew super-serious at the time and made them lighthearted is a MASSIVE part of why those series became so accessible and thus, popular. Why the hell else do you think a country( where basketball is as obscure and unpopular as mahjong in america) would go apeshit over a basketball manga to the point that it become the bestselling book in the entire country??
Inoue knew he had to sell them on the comedy and characters BEFORE the basketball elements. That's the point of what I was saying about it containing strong elements from other genres in the opening volumes. He KNEW there wasnt a built-in audience for the series like with popular sports. SD is a testament to the idea that you can sell ANY gimmick if you know how. That's my final word on this, but it felt necessary since you seem to miss the entire point of what I was saying and either not realize what you're arguing about or trying to pretend you were having a factual debate when you're really just shouting your opinion.
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This is amusing to watch.
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This is amusing to watch.
Indeed :devil:
(16 more arguments brought to you by: Deltron 3030 and AO Kiji)
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From where I'm standing as a neutral observer(never read SD or Vagabond), Deltron is clearly winning and Ao kiji keeps running around in circles, saying irrelevant stuff in an attempt to bury the true issues at hand of the argument.
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hey look a gay thread