What is the Greatest Manga of all time? (not a popularity contest)
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What's the greatest manga of all time, yet you say it isn't a popularity contest…
It's not. This greatest manga thread is simply based on one's taste.
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I thought the modern view of Middle Ages is that it wasn't that bad back then, and we should abandon the term "Dark Ages" altogether. Or something like that. But I won't argue, I prefer living in current day Europe. By far.
Dark Ages refers to the early middle ages after the western roman empire fell and before the frankish kingdom. Things were pretty chaotic and culturally absent for awhile in Europe.
Arabia, India and China were ballin' at the time though.
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neither does one piece but it's there.
I haven't read nearly enough manga to make what I would consider to be an accurate top ten list, but as far as anime goes, One Piece is easily the best shonen I've ever seen, about tied with the original Dragonball for me. Dragonball would have the edge if your counting stuff like impact on the industry, but no other shonen I can think of compares to those two. From looking at the original list, the only other top ten contenders on there would probably be Jo Jo and Berserk, and maybe Monster. So if you can give me a list of ten manga better than One Piece I'd love to hear it.
Edit: Anyone know if Lupin III ever had a manga? Love that show…
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If selling would really indicate the greatness of sth, Titanic would officially be called the greatest movie ever created…
What a smart guy you are!Some would consider Titanic the greatest movieof all time or atleast ONE of the greatest. Saying "Japan's favorite manga" isnt one of the best and shouldn't even be contending is just flat-out stupidity. A manga that until recently held the record for best selling volume of all time? Yeah, there's no way that should even be nominated for BEST.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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@Skull:
Edit: Anyone know if Lupin III ever had a manga? Love that show…
Yeah, quite a few volumes, actually.
No one scanlates the classics, dammit. :getlost:
Banner by 8bit of Otakuboards. I'm using it here too because it's that awesome.
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@Deltron:
The more into history I read the less Berserk seems over the top.
Yes you bet your ass there were nobles and even multiple POPES that were violent sexual deviants. Miura hasn't even showed the clergy being that depraved yet, Berserk is lighter then reality lol.
And the demons and shit he comes up with aren't even as fully disturbing as the crap you see in some renaissance art of hell, Hieronymus Bosch ladies and gentlemen.Eh, Bosch's stuff that I've seen seems more trippy than disturbing. Miura's is more aimed to be viscerally horrific. Often incorporating random body parts (including the naughty ones), appendages, and making gross little crevices.
But yeah, Berserk is pretty tame compared to real life, but I still love how honest it is. Because let's face it, if, let's say, a gang of bandits kidnap an attractive woman, you KNOW what they're gonna do with her. Hint: They're not gonna tie her up and snicker evilly at her. Most series avoid what you know they'd do with her. Berserk does not. Berserk's honest about it. They're gonna fuck her raw, and Berserk is gonna let you know that.
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@Skull:
So if you can give me a list of ten manga better than One Piece I'd love to hear it.
That'd be difficult to do since I don't hold any one manga in high regard over another, even if I did I haven't read that many mangas I would consider better One Piece.
I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284
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@Deltron:
Dark Ages refers to the early middle ages after the western roman empire fell and before the frankish kingdom.
Yeah… thanks? But I'm pretty sure most are aware what it's supposed to mean, tho. I mean, I were usually awake during History classes too. :ermm:
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That'd be difficult to do since I don't hold any one manga in high regard over another, even if I did I haven't read that many mangas I would consider better One Piece.
Wouldn't that mean that it's the best series you've ever read? Or at least that you can't say it doesn't deserve to be in that list since you yourself admit you haven't read a lot of manga and even if you did, you don't even compare them anyway so you cannot judge whether a series is good enough to be compared to higher quality-series.
You're not really making a lot of sense:blink:
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@THC:
From what I've heard is the best: Nausicaa
From what I've personally read: Berserk and maybe Monster if it keeps getting better from where I've left off.
Most enjoyable: Either One Piece or Soul Eater (though I prefer watching the anime)
Unfortunately for me it didn't:/ Though Mr. Urasawa has a habit of running out of steam after an incredible beginning.
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@THC:
That's depressing.
I hear 20th Century Boys and Pluto are the same way. Urusawa has to think his stuff through better I guess.
I'm still going to finish Monster though.
Of course, I recommend it. Just don't keep your hopes up for a climactic ending. For what it's worth, the ending was better than 20th Century Boys in my opinion.
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@Skull:
So if you can give me a list of ten manga better than One Piece I'd love to hear it.
You can start off with some Guyver.
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@Ao:
Some would consider Titanic the greatest movieof all time or atleast ONE of the greatest. Saying "Japan's favorite manga" isnt one of the best and shouldn't even be contending is just flat-out stupidity. A manga that until recently held the record for best selling volume of all time? Yeah, there's no way that should even be nominated for BEST.
Popularity doesn't mean shit.
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@Deltron:
Popularity doesn't mean shit.
That's right.^^
Like I said, this entire thread is just based on an individuals own taste.One Piece shouldn't even be on any "Greatest manga" list cause it ain't even finished yet.
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@Thousand:
Wouldn't that mean that it's the best series you've ever read?
No
@Thousand:
Or at least that you can't say it doesn't deserve to be in that list since you yourself admit you haven't read a lot of manga
To make a top 10 list of mangas besides One Piece I consider to be the greatest something you suggested I could do, which I can't do as a result of not reading too many mangas that could be considered great.
How would it look if I said I thought Naruto or Mai Hime were two of the greatest manga series of all time. I like Both series but even I wouldn't call them the greatest mangas ever made, much less consider putting them on a list like that.
@Thousand:
and even if you did, you don't even compare them anyway so you cannot judge whether a series is good enough to be compared to higher quality-series.
Then we're back to the point before Choperman explained himself why I don't think One Piece should be on this poll.
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Naruto is only good for 16 books.
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That'd be difficult to do since I don't hold any one manga in high regard over another, even if I did I haven't read that many mangas I would consider better One Piece.
Really? So you don't rank manga based on quality in your mind at all? The manga equivlanet to something like the Reign The Conquerer anime would be just as good as One Piece, Dragonball, etc? Nobody could ever come up with a perfectly accurate and fair list but its still fun to make your own based on your own experiences.
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Popularity doesn't mean shit.
As "COOL" as that sounds to say, it isn't true.
Popularity doesnt equal THE BEST, but it definitely IS a skill to create something with broad enough appeal to maintain popularity. Especially if you're using obscure or unpopular subject matter – I'm taking about Slam Dunk being the best selling manga in a country where basketball was completely unpopular.
If you're a massive hit, you ARE or DID do something right at one point in the series' creation. Stop trying to be EDGY deltron.Everything on that list is on there, because it's a megapopular series.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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As "COOL" as that sounds to say, it isn't true.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
WAW WAWWWW
Popularity doesnt equal THE BEST, but it definitely IS a skill to create something with broad enough appeal to maintain popularity.
Nope.
Especially if you're using obscure or unpopular subject matter – I'm taking about Slam Dunk being the best selling manga in a country where basketball was completely unpopular.
Doesn't mean it's quality manga.
If you're a massive hit, you ARE or DID do something right at one point in the series' creation.
What did he do right, that's your argument. Not that it's popular.
Stop trying to be EDGY deltron.
I'm not edgy or trying to be, it's just this forum is filled with pussified retards such as yourself that make me look like a cross of Marlon Brando and Einstein in comparison.
Everything on that list is on there, because it's a megapopular series.
Who gives a shit. Argue it's qualities.
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I'm not edgy or trying to be, it's just this forum is filled with pussified retards such as yourself that make me look like a cross of Marlon Brando and Einstein in comparison.
You don't really come across as clever so much as small-minded and stubborn. If something manages to grasp mainstream in a fad heavy country and hold onto it uptil the finale, it's definitely doing something right. Pretty much ever series that has dips in wiritng quality or original ideas, have dips in readership whether they maintain popularity or not.
But it's cool. You're a clever and witty guy with such amazing retorts as "Nope" and the amazing ability to link to statistics sheets instead of building an argument using your own mental resources.
FTR, I was never making the argument that popularity meant it was GREAT. But something that is thebest selling of all time in any genre definitely derserves to be nominated for the best of all time in that genre.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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You don't really come across as clever so much as small-minded and stubborn.
Said the guy argueing against hundreds of years of logic.
If something manages to grasp mainstream in a fad heavy country and hold onto it uptil the finale, it's definitely doing something right.
What is Slam Dunk doing right?
Pretty much ever series that has dips in wiritng quality or original ideas, have dips in readership whether they maintain popularity or not.
Explain Naruto and Bleach.
But it's cool. You're a clever and witty guy with such amazing retorts as "Nope" and the amazing ability to link to statistics sheets instead of building an argument using your own mental resources.
Your retarded. You didn't even read the link did you, I don't know what the fuck statistics sheets your talking about, especially since your the one making a numbers argument.
I also don't know where the "BUILD YER OWN ARGUMENT" comes from give I already explained if popularity hints at something then it's that something you should be using.Your the one vaguely hinting at an argument but refusing to make it you stupid hypocrite.
Go on, tell me again how it means SOMETHING LOL.
FTR, I was never making the argument that popularity meant it was GREAT. But something that is thebest selling of all time in any genre definitely derserves to be nominated for the best of all time in that genre.
So in a best albums of all time you agree that the High School Musical soundtrack should be up there.
Read the link you idiot.
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Explain Naruto and Bleach.
Bleach enjoy only LOW TIER popularity in Japan.
You can get low tier popularity with good art and cliches. I'm talking about MAINSTREAMhood for the entire run of the series.Naruto obviously did things right in the opening – taking a cliched beyond cliched concept and presenting it in an original way for the first time in a decade as well as a "unique" choice for protagonist. The thing is, Naruto takes a swandive in quality early on.
So in a best albums of all time you agree that the High School Musical soundtrack should be up there.
In a list of the best children's albums, definitely.
By your logic, that poll should be completely blank.
What is Slam Dunk doing right?
What is One Piece doing right?
Anyway, your antics are less intelectual "schooling" and more internet dick-waving, Deltron.
I was just pointing out how absurd it is to not mention a best manga debate without including Dragonball, One Piece or Slam Dunk considering their the top three bestselling series in the entire genre.Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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Bleach enjoy only LOW TIER popularity in Japan.
http://comipress.com/article/2008/12/31/3733
Banished to the abysmal depths of NUMBER FIVE.
You can get low tier popularity with good art and cliches. I'm talking about MAINSTREAMhood for the entire run of the series.
Bleach is mainstream as hell.
Naruto obviously did things right in the opening – taking a cliched beyond cliched concept and presenting it in an original way for the first time in a decade as well as a "unique" choice for protagonist
What the hell are you talking about?
How is Naruto's premise original let alone within the last ten years of it's debut.The thing is, Naruto takes a swandive in quality early on.
And is still selling like crack cocaine in Compton.
In a list of the best children's albums, definitely.
No, in a best seller list period.
Hear that?
It's the sound of your theory caving in.By your logic, that poll should be completely blank.
When the hell did my logic dictate that.
What is One Piece doing right?
Imaginative landscapes, relative consistency of quality and excitement, fulfilling of story promises made early on, well paced revealings of world aspects, incredibly well drawn even within a limited schedule, refreshingly irreverent tone at almost all times etc etc tec
Anyway, your antics are less intelectual "schooling" and more internet dick-waving, Deltron.
Maybe you could help me learn how to be intelectual.
I was just pointing out how absurd it is to not mention a best manga debate without including Dragonball, One Piece or Slam Dunk considering their the top three bestselling series in the entire genre.
And I was just pointing out that that's a shitty fucking reason to include them.
Why aren't you pouting about Kochi-Kame not being included. -
I probably should read more Bleach at some point. I quit reading it pretty early on but I recall enjoying the author's strong sense of style.
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@Deltron:
http://comipress.com/article/2008/12/31/3733
Banished to the abysmal depths of NUMBER FIVE.http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-11/japanese-comic-ranking-february-3-9/2
Lets stay current now.
Besides, number five is pretty good.Imaginative landscapes, relative consistency of quality and excitement, fulfilling of story promises made early on, well paced revealings of world aspects, incredibly well drawn even within a limited schedule, refreshingly irreverent tone at almost all times etc etc tec
Only the bold matters in a good manga and even that's a falsehood in your post regarding One Piece. The rest is just flubber.
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-11/japanese-comic-ranking-february-3-9/2
Kinda hard to believe that BAKI is in the top 20.
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-11/japanese-comic-ranking-february-3-9/2
Isn't that sales for the US or for February in Japan? They were talking about sales/popularity in Japan.
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Kinda hard to believe that BAKI is in the top 20.
I never read BAKI, is it any good [Though your post seems to say it isn't]?
@dirt:
Isn't that sales for the US or for February in Japan? They were talking about sales/popularity in Japan.
So is the link.
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-02-11/japanese-comic-ranking-february-3-9/2
Lets stay current now.
Besides, number five is pretty good.1. December 2008 is current.
2. Your showing the sales of particular volumes. I was showing overall sales.
3. How can you not tell I was being sarcastic.
4. Why are you even telling this to me, he was denying it's popularity.
5. HRRRROnly the bold matters in a good manga
Well that's a load of bullshit.
and even that's a falsehood in your post regarding One Piece.
I added "relative" even with bumps on the road like Enies Lobby, DBF, and Amazon Lilly the overall consistency in One Piece for a series at 54 volumes is fucking amazing.
The rest is just flubber.
Thanks for the inept confused breakdown of my post bro.
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What the hell are you talking about?
How is Naruto's premise original let alone within the last ten years of it's debut.That's not even what's said and you quoting it, just made it worse. I said original take on a "cliched concept." How is the Naruto take on Ninja's NOT original? You're being really biased if you don't think Kishimoto did something unique when he threw away the adult men in black garbs who just hack and slash and made them the hand-sign-utilizing-miltary squads. The headbands and touches like that were all "clever" tools to help the series standout.
You're totally misunderstanding. I was talking about taking the cliched concept of "Manga Ninjas" and doing something new with it. As much as Naruto sucks after like the first few arcs, it DID try something different. Now pretty much all anime ninjas are just variations of the Naruto-version.
And is still selling like crack cocaine in Compton.
Early on Naruto was doing A LOT better than it is now. I remember all the hubub about Naruto was because when it started, it was giving OP a run for its money, it's still second, but there's a huge gaps in sales between the two.
No, in a best seller list period.
Hear that?
It's the sound of your theory caving in.Really? It sounds an awful lot like you bending ideas and 6 degreesing your ass off to fit your own POV. Children's Albums is a genre, like manga is a sub genre.
Also, I'm sure if I was a tween girl, I would think it was the best album ever, so what's your point? It's personal taste when saying the "Best ever."Dude, I know you're getting a raging hardon from arguing and getting in the last word, but what is the point? I was chiming into say "Uh, yeah, Slam Dunk belongs on there, genius. It happens to be as popular as Dragonball in most other countries, in Korea it's MORE well known."
Imaginative landscapes, relative consistency of quality and excitement, fulfilling of story promises made early on, well paced revealings of world aspects, incredibly well drawn even within a limited schedule, refreshingly irreverent tone at almost all times etc etc tec
lol, Are you threw with the reach around? Do you really need to say stuff like this on a OP forum. As much as I love OP, there were plenty of problems with it in the beginning - slow pacing, drawing a LOT from Dragonball in the beginning with the characters and stories, there were some post-Arlong arcs in the manga with reeeally rushed-looking inking, and the series really doesn't become what it is now until like two years in with the Arlong arc. Slam Dunk on the other hand, starts off being hilarious with the very first page, of the very first chapter, guy.
It's a much, much harder task to make a down to earth, slice of life-style story become as well-received and popular as Slam Dunk did. Not to mention, the entire concept of basketball, was something NOONE in Japan cared about or was really all that interested in, most editors tried to talk the creator into using a different sport or another concept. Inoue-sensei couldn't rely on special powers, wild landscapes, or flashy gimmicks. He became popular based on really charming characters and storytelling. Just because you can only enjoy energy blast and escapist fantasies, don't talk down about the creator or the series because you personally don't enjoy the genre. What did Slam Dunk do right? Umm..he managaed to equal and in certain cases trump Dragonball's sales, and capture everyone's attention without a single person getting slammed through a fucking mountain. I'd like to see YOU write a fucking realistic sports series that draws young boy's attention more than Bulma's tits and muscleheads suplexing each other through planets and shit.
As great as OP is and Dragonball was to a lesser extent, it's waaaay fucking easier to hit it big when you're doing escapist fantasy and can create flashy powers and the rules of the world, then when you're doing a story grounded in reality. Give credit where credit is due. Shonen manga creators rip off SD just as much as they bite Dragonball, even now.
Why aren't you pouting about Kochi-Kame not being included.
It probably should be up there. -_-
I wasn't the one who started flailing that it should be up there, I was talking to the person who was arguing that SD and DN don't even belong up there before you started your PMS-ish rant about how popularity doesnt mean shit. That was NEVER my point. This entire poll is based around popular SHONEN manga, and if that's what THIS SPECIFIC POLL IS BASED ON, which it is, then it should definitely be up there.Now go ahead and have the last word, you know you can not fucking resist.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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That's not even what's said and you quoting it, just made it worse. I said original take on a "cliched concept." How is the Naruto take on Ninja's NOT original?
"Ninjas" aren't a concept. You see where I thought you meant the young-hero-journey or something.
Early on Naruto was doing A LOT better than it is now. I remember all the hubub about Naruto was because when it started, it was giving OP a run for its money, it's still second, but there's a huge gaps in sales between the two.
And it's still number two. Why does this only come down to competition between Naruto and One Piece. What about other still running greatness like Vagabond and Berserk.
Really? It sounds an awful lot like you bending ideas and 6 degreesing your ass off to fit your own POV. Children's Albums is a genre, like manga is a sub genre.
It sounds like you desperatly want to believe the High School Musical album isn't one of the best selling albums of all time.
Also, I'm sure if I was a tween girl, I would think it was the best album ever, so what's your point? It's personal taste when saying the "Best ever."
But you have to be able to make an argument for it.
Dude, I know you're getting a raging hardon from arguing and getting in the last word,
Y'know, as someone who spent a day or two between repsonses only to come raging back as if he changed his mind about stopping I wouldn't be saying this.
but what is the point? I was chiming into say "Uh, yeah, Slam Dunk belongs on there, genius. It happens to be as popular as Dragonball in most other countries, in Korea it's MORE well known."
Which was a retarded reason to include it.
lol, Are you threw with the reach around? Do you really need to say stuff like this on a OP forum. As much as I love OP, there were plenty of problems with it in the beginning - slow pacing, drawing a LOT from Dragonball in the beginning with the characters and stories,
What early stories resemble Dragonball.
And yeah, some of the East Blue stuff was awkward but what's your point.
there were some post-Arlong arcs in the manga with reeeally rushed-looking inking,
No there weren't. Are you basing this off godawful online scans lol.
and the series really doesn't become what it is now until like two years in with the Arlong arc.
So?
Slam Dunk on the other hand, starts off being hilarious with the very first page, of the very first chapter, guy.
One Piece had a great start too. The Buggy arc was the first time it got kinda weak.
Again what's your point. Having a better start would mean Naruto is better then One Piece or even Bleach.
One Piece built on itself better.
It's a much, much harder task to make a down to earth, slice of life-style story become as well-received and popular as Slam Dunk did.
Jump has had assloads of basically well to do sports manga. And well to do romance manga. And Kochi Kame is just about a cop.
Inoue-sensei couldn't rely on special powers, wild landscapes, or flashy gimmicks. He became popular based on really charming characters and storytelling. Just because you can only enjoy energy blast and escapist fantasies, don't talk down about the creator or the series because you personally don't enjoy the genre.
What the fuck are you talking about.
I haven't talked down Slam Dunk at all. And I sure as shit haven't talked down Inoue, I'm a gigantic fan of Vagabond.What did Slam Dunk do right? Umm..he managaed to equal and in certain cases trump Dragonball's sales,
Goddamn you suck.
You don't even know why you like this manga.
It shouldn't be like pulling fucking teeth for you to say "I like the pictures, and teh characters and blah blah" but you just won't stop jerking off to how much money it's made.Who gives a shit. Talk about the manga. Not how many new cars Inoue bought with it.
and capture everyone's attention without a single person getting slammed through a fucking mountain. I'd like to see YOU write a fucking realistic sports series that draws young boy's attention more than Bulma's tits and muscleheads suplexing each other through planets and shit.
Don't ever use this horrible arguement, let alone against someone who majors in screenwriting.
Now talk about the goddamn manga already. Your like a fucking 50 Cent fan.
As great as OP is and Dragonball was to a lesser extent, it's waaaay fucking easier to hit it big when you're doing escapist fantasy and can create flashy powers and the rules of the world, then when you're doing a story grounded in reality. Give credit where credit is due. Shonen manga creators rip off SD just as much as they bite Dragonball, even now.
None of this has to do with quality. Slam Dunk has historical clout in achieving what it did being what it was. Now how about talking about it's qualities.
It probably should be up there. -_-
Why.
I wasn't the one who started flailing that it should be up there, I was talking to the person who was arguing that SD and DN don't even belong up there before you started your PMS-ish rant about how popularity doesnt mean shit.
Popularity doesn't mean shit.
That was NEVER my point. This entire poll is based around popular SHONEN manga, and if that's what THIS SPECIFIC POLL IS BASED ON, which it is, then it should definitely be up there.
Yes that's why Berserk and Monster are up there, there's nothing about "POPULAR" or "SHONEN" there. Why are you blatantly lying.
Now go ahead and have the last word, you know you can not fucking resist.
Why would I not respond to begin with lol? Your saying things I disagree with. That's how debate works you idiot.
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Popularity and current sales mean very little. VERY often, all it means is that something has a better word of mouth, and so more people are likely to be exposed to it, and thus know about it, but more people knowing about it does't make the actual work better.
Harry Potter is easily the best selling, most well known book series in the world right now, with the most anticipated volumes up until their releases. Does that fact alone make them the best? No. I've read them all, and I enjoyed them, the world and the characters, but the books suffered a lot of cliche, padding, and bad pacing in places where the editor was afraid to say no. They did a GREAT many thing right, a lot of the series popularity is deserved, but nowhere in the leagues of insane popularity that it reached. I only ended up reading them because my friends had read them and I wanted to be able to follow the conversations. It is only BECAUSE The series was so popular, that it got as popular as it did. Its a strange loop that feeds on itself, but so it is.
The Dark Knight was the second highest grossing film ever, but its not nearly as good a great many other movies. Its good for what it is, very good in fact, the best JOKER movie to date, but Godfather did mobster crime stories better, Goodfellas did it funnier, and Mask of the Phantasm was a better Batman movie. Just because it made more money does not inherantly make it better.
Or… the often brought up High School Musical. Which is merely a new version of Grease set in modern day instead of the 50's. Its ridiculous phenomenal success doesn't make it great, or even good.
Shakesphere is the only 500 year old+ author thats taught in schools outside of ancient greek plays... but thats because America comes from Britain and its what we know and our teachers teacher's teacher's taught it to them. We completley ignore equally important, and in some cases, older, better and more epic works from India, China, Japan, and Russia. Romance of the Three Kingdoms has a cast of thousands, death, intrigue, and is based on historical events and is one of the four great works of China, but Romeo and Juliet is the name people will recognize if you ask anyone on the street in america. (I suppose King Leer might be the more apt genre and scope appropriate example in this case, except people don't know King Leer either.)
Rocky Horror Picture Show FAILED HORRIBLY, until it started kitch midnight showings where it built an audience based around insulting the movie. Still a lousy movie, but no one would know of it today if it hadn't managed to become popular in it own crazy way.... by being BAD, but good with a large crowd.
Citizen Kane was barely even released in theaters for the first 10 years of its existence and was practically forgotten about. It wasn't until 30 years later that it was unearthed and recognized as one of the most pioneering and greatest movies of all time.
Most classically famous writers and painters don't get recognized until long after their deaths, and die penniless, unknown, and sometimes from suicide.
Is the bible THE good book, or just A good book? Its got huge longevity and circulation, but...
Something being well known does not in and of itself make it better than something less well known. Popularity is contagious and only means something has caught the eye of enough people to get a push. It does NOT inherantly make something good. (Like having to read lousy boring books in school that even the teacher doesn't like, just because they're known and recognized.)
"If it sold well" isn't even a discussion point, since a simple example of numbers pretty much takes care of any debate. If you're going to argue a point about how good something is, say WHY its good, not that it sold well.
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@Deltron:
1. December 2008 is current.
2. Your showing the sales of particular volumes. I was showing overall sales.
3. How can you not tell I was being sarcastic.
4. Why are you even telling this to me, he was denying it's popularity.
5. HRRRRIt doesn't matter. You're right, we both agree that popularity means nothing, so it's a moot point.
Well that's a load of bullshit.
That's what I said to your next statement below…
I added "relative" even with bumps on the road like Enies Lobby, DBF, and Amazon Lilly the overall consistency in One Piece for a series at 54 volumes is fucking amazing.
Keep going…..Duval, Thriller Bark, Skypiea were overall weak arcs.
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That's what I said to your next statement below…
No seriously, explain why the other things I pointed out didn't matter. I'm fascinated.
Keep going…..Duval, Thriller Bark, Skypiea were overall weak arcs.
Duval?? Duval wasn't a freaking arc, it was a 5 chapter or so pit stop/intro sequence for Shabondy. I'm not going to count a 5 chapter event as breaking sequence or even mattering in a 500 something mega-series.
Skypiea was awesome. The only problem it had was it's lack of relevance to any major plot points. Otherwise it was probably the most swashbuckling arc in the series, with the best island world.
Thriller Barque had it's ups and downs, overall it was alright.
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@Deltron:
No seriously, explain why the other things I pointed out didn't matter. I'm fascinated.
Imaginative landscapes, fulfilling of story promises made early on, incredibly well drawn even within a limited schedule, refreshingly irreverent tone at almost all times etc etc tec
Besides your bold [and the other statements that were false] non of the other qualities you mentioned helps the story continue to balance action, intrigue and character development well.
Duval?? Duval wasn't a freaking arc, it was a 5 chapter or so pit stop/intro sequence for Shabondy. I'm not going to count a 5 chapter event as breaking sequence or even mattering in a 500 something mega-series.
Pitstop?? arlong Park forums at it's best..No it was an arc.
Skypiea was awesome. The only problem it had was it's lack of relevance to any major plot points. Otherwise it was probably the most swashbuckling arc in the series, with the best island world.
Thriller Barque had it's ups and downs, overall it was alright.
That alone should tell you right there..No..nevermind…you're done. You're talking like one of them now.
I'm not gonna sit here and fight the Church of Oda. -
IKeep going…..Duval, Thriller Bark, Skypiea were overall weak arcs.
Duval was the start of an arc, not an arc in and of itself. Thriller Bark and Skypiea were both a little long, and should probably have only been about 4/5 the length they were, but they were great fun, full of twists, adventure, comedy and action.
SkyPeia's biggest problem is it set up an entire new world and rules and ideas. It had as much world and character creation and backstory as most series just STARTING get, and so it had to slow down a little for that. If those 10 or so volumes on their own were the first and only part of One Piece you ever read, you could see it as a complete tory from start to end and be totally satisfied with it. But it is the closest to a typical pirate adventure the crew has been on, the moment of PURE satisfaction when you realize Luffy'sbeen in the snake the whole time, or when Enel's powers first meet Luffy's Rubber, or Luffy has that GIANT FREAKING GOLD ball, or Chopper trying to be brave, or Robin actually fighting, or them actually STEALING treasure, etc. etc. Skypeia was a great arc, just not most people's cup of tea due to the fact the story kind of stopped in order to start from scratch.
Thriller Bark had heavy spotlight on the weaker members, Usopp kicking butt, everything with Brook was golden, everythign with Laboon was great, Moria was a blast, the stolen shadows were great ideas, and Kuma arriving was one hell of a shock, and it was a fun arc too, with a few bumps along the way.
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Besides your bold [and the other statements that were false]
What part of "explain" don't you get.
non of the other qualities you mentioned helps the story continue to balance action, intrigue and character development well.
Imaginative landscapes,
One Piece is an adventure/on the road story. Strong sense of place is important as fuck. Same with stories like Tintin, Indiana Jones, etc.
Setting is important no matter what kind of story it is.
Shows what you know.fulfilling of story promises made early on,
How can you even say this doesn't matter?
In a long detailed series like this it's rare for authors to actually fulfill on things like this satisfyingly.
Naruto has been fucking up on it nonstop for instance.well paced revealings of world aspects,
This is INCREDIBLY important in a long story. Oda has very carefully revealed the big aspects and faces of his world, without either rushing them out early or saving them up and giving the reader blue balls. That's skill.
incredibly well drawn even within a limited schedule,
I dunno man, maybe I'm crazy but art is an important part of a comic book.
refreshingly irreverent tone at almost all times etc etc tec
Oda has a style of tone and he is good at it. What went over your head here.
Pitstop?? arlong Park forums at it's best..No it was an arc.
ahahahahahaha
If you think I'm quintessential Arlong Park your lost as hell. Where do you hang your hat tough guy?And even if you do pathetically stretch what defines an arc into some piss take amoeba of a plot as the Duval stuff it's so small it doesn't matter. It's like a single small pot hole on a basically smooth road. Don't use it as an example of One Piece not being a very smooth ride.
That alone should tell you right there.
WAW WAW I CANT CONCENTRATE ON A STORYLINE IF THEY ARENT MENTIONING WHITEBEARD EVERY SENTENCE WAWWW
If that's your only beef with Skypiea and you seriously can't be damned with a good story if it doesn't have huge plot relevance in spite of everything else in it you don't even give a shit about stories to begin with. Your just pathetically reading along for the quick rush of spoilers into your veins. ADD reader.
No..nevermind…you're done. You're talking like one of them now.
If that were true I wouldn't be able to explain what I'm saying. But by all means continue making a pathetic escape hatch from the argument you know you can't win.
I'm not gonna sit here and fight the Church of Oda.
You must come from some feather-weight forum if you start crying when someone says Skypiea was good. Get the fuck back over to it.
Give Toonzone my regards.
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@Deltron:
What part of "explain" don't you get.
Imaginative landscapes,
One Piece is an adventure/on the road story. Strong sense of place is important as fuck. Same with stories like Tintin, Indiana Jones, etc.
Setting is important no matter what kind of story it is.
Shows what you know.fulfilling of story promises made early on,
How can you even say this doesn't matter?
In a long detailed series like this it's rare for authors to actually fulfill on things like this satisfyingly.
Naruto has been fucking up on it nonstop for instance.well paced revealings of world aspects,
This is INCREDIBLY important in a long story. Oda has very carefully revealed the big aspects and faces of his world, without either rushing them out early or saving them up and giving the reader blue balls. That's skill.
incredibly well drawn even within a limited schedule,
I dunno man, maybe I'm crazy but art is an important part of a comic book.
refreshingly irreverent tone at almost all times etc etc tec
Oda has a style of tone and he is good at it. What went over your head here.
That has nothing to do with consistent quality of action, intrigue and character development.
ahahahahahaha
If you think I'm quintessential Arlong Park your lost as hell. Where do you hang your hat tough guy?And even if you do pathetically stretch what defines an arc into some piss take amoeba of a plot as the Duval stuff it's so small it doesn't matter. It's like a single small pot hole on a basically smooth road. Don't use it as an example of One Piece not being a very smooth ride.
It's still a sorry arc, your words don't magically change that.
WAW WAW I CANT CONCENTRATE ON A STORYLINE IF THEY ARENT MENTIONING WHITEBEARD EVERY SENTENCE WAWWW
If that's your only beef with Skypiea and you seriously can't be damned with a good story if it doesn't have huge plot relevance in spite of everything else in it you don't even give a shit about stories to begin with. Your just pathetically reading along for the quick rush of spoilers into your veins. ADD reader.
I'm not reading for boring backstory on useless characters [and plot] and which was weak Skypiea.
If that were true I wouldn't be able to explain what I'm saying. But by all means continue making a pathetic escape hatch from the argument you know you can't win.
You must come from some feather-weight forum if you start crying when someone says Skypiea was good. Get the fuck back over to it.
Give Toonzone my regards.
Weak…
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This post is deleted!
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That has nothing to do with consistent quality of action, intrigue and character development.
Yeah it has something to do with quality of a story, something which involves more then action, character and intrigue.
Get off the "babbys' first story elements" book if your gonna argue with me on this bub.Oh and nice to see you back after your suave retreat. I wonder how many surprise returns we're gonna see in this thread. Two so far.
It's still a sorry arc, your words don't magically change that.
That's a funny way to concede your point but I'll take it.
Oh and I never said it was an arc, I just said it's irrevalent even hypothetically.I'm not reading for boring backstory on useless characters [and plot] and which was weak Skypiea.
If your not reading for adventure, strong sense of location why are you even reading One Piece.
And, What is Vivi's boring ass flashback better than Norland's because she's a more relevant character?
Like hell.Weak…
The irony here is pretty damn thick. Also trailing off the periods makes it even wimpier a response.
Now go back to Toon Zone or wherever the hell.
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What about other still running greatness like Vagabond and Berserk.
Is this a question or rehetorical or what? I'm not sure what you mean…in general or are you asking why I brought up Naruto, because it was one of the series YOU mentioned being "bad" but popular.
You made quite a few grammatical mistakes in this post, too but I won't POUNCE all over them by quoting them followed by a snide one-liner. That's lame and kind of childish unless the other person is trying to tell you off, which I wasn't in the first place.
"Ninjas" aren't a concept. You see where I thought you meant the young-hero-journey or something.
It's part of the overall gimmick or pitch of the series: Ninjas in a "brand new style"! That and the demon inside him thing.
It sounds like you desperatly want to believe the High School Musical album isn't one of the best selling albums of all time.
Oh no, the Corben Bleu poster on my wall hangs proudly.
But you have to be able to make an argument for it.
You can make an argument that ANYTHINg that's ubber popular is "tapping into what the youth culture is into now and thus brilliant for doing so, so perfectly." The same way you can argue Nirvana was the SOUL of where American youth were at during their rise to popularity, with enough flowery statements you can make a decent enough argument for Highschool Musical. You can argue anything is THE BEST when it comes down to personal intrepretation or something that's art or music.
Which was a retarded reason to include it.
The same can be said for One Piece, Dragonball, FMA, etc. What's your point? It really just sounds like you have never read or don't like that SPECIFIC series and are working backwards towards some strawman argument. How about you give me one or more valid reasons it SHOULDN'T be up there but something like Dragonball should considering they have had the exact same level of culural penetration and impact on manga storytelling styles and techniques?
No there weren't. Are you basing this off godawful online scans lol.
I'm talking about the Viz volumes I read in the NA Shonen Jump releases. The scans tend to look BETTER than those sometimes. And I guess you aren't done giving OP the reach around.
How brave of you to make bold statements like "One Piece is great" on a OP site. One Piece is probably the only manga that has lasted this good for this long, but it is like an improved take on the Dragonball model, dude. SD was, and is something that was treading new ground. It's still one of the ONLY sports series that made use of comedy as much as it did. 90% of Shonen sports series I've read/watched play things way more dramatic and series. Not to mention that was the first time I saw a sports series taking cues from romance and fighting series and making them work in a sports story naturally.Like I said, if you personally enjoy fantasy-fighting stuff more than ENJOY but don't bash a series because it belongs to a genre you're not into and act like it's inferior or something. Name me a sports manga that is better than SD and equal in it's impact on manga? That's exactly like saying Dragonball shouldn't be up there. Stop attempting to make a factual argument based on your personal biased for no other reason but you salivate at the chance to try and PWN someone on the intarwebs. What IS your argument exactly? I already said, I AGREE that popularity doesn't determine what's the absolute best, I never said it did. My point was popularity SHOULD get you some acknowledgement if only that. Not to mention, in Slam Dunk's case it had QUALITY as well.
Jump has had assloads of basically well to do sports manga. And well to do romance manga. And Kochi Kame is just about a cop.
Slice of Life=/= romance. Not to mention SD lacks any real sort of fanservice and 90% of shonen romances are SOLD based on that alone. And which of those SJ sports series is outselling Bleach and Naruto? SD is the only series I recall from the last 15 or so years that was that well received.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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Again what's your point. Having a better start would mean Naruto is better then One Piece or even Bleach.
LOL!!! Your argument is totally degenerating!
That's such a dumb thing to say, since when is an ENTIRE series' worth judged on the opening chapters? I never said the first 100 chapters were crap in OP or anything, but I definitely think Naruto came out stronger out of the gate. That doesn't make it a better series by ANY means. Many series don't get reeeally good until a volume or two in. I hate the first few volumes of Berserk, too. Jumping to the Band of the Hawk thing in the anime was the best move the anime director could've made.Not how many new cars Inoue bought with it.
He bought jets, man. JETS.
"If it sold well" isn't even a discussion point, since a simple example of numbers pretty much takes care of any debate. If you're going to argue a point about how good something is, say WHY its good, not that it sold well.
I agree 100% with everything you posted. It being popular was one of the reasons, or maybe the first reason I mentioned and Deltron3030 just saw it as an opportunity to argue with someone, anyone over something via the internet, so he went into rabid flaming mode.
everythign with Laboon was great
Now that I disagree with. I dont care how doughey his eyes were, that much time dedicated to making me feel sympathy for a pet with zero personality just felt forced.
Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.
Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.
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@Deltron:
I added "relative" even with bumps on the road like Enies Lobby, DBF, and Amazon Lilly the overall consistency in One Piece for a series at 54 volumes is fucking amazing.
Wow, I can understand Davy Back fight and Amazon Lily(though I liked them myself) but you didn't like Enies Lobby? O_O
Ah well, it's your opinion anyway^^
My two cents, Mr. Oda has never really made a bad arc because they all contain his style, imagination, creativity, characterization ability, story pacing and art etc… It's just when you compare his arcs, you see the full potential the man has. Of course that's just my opinion^^
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For me, it's either Iron Wok Jan or Hajime No Ippo.
