WB released a deleted scene
!
What kind of Fourth World monstrosity this is?
WB released a deleted scene
!
What kind of Fourth World monstrosity this is?
There was another, more practical reason that Snyder decided to go this route, as well.
! He felt Justice League, which begins shooting April 11, would be a stronger story if it didn’t have Superman assembling the team.
! “I wanted Bruce Wayne to build the Justice League,” Snyder tells EW. “I felt like with Superman around, it’s a different conversation when you create the Justice League, right? It’s like, ‘Me and Superman, we want to make a Justice League.’ [Other heroes would be] like, ‘Okay, yeah, I’ll join!’ I just feel like Bruce Wayne having to go out and find these seven samurai by himself, that’s a lot more interesting of a premise.”
It also forces Bruce Wayne to put his detective skills to work as he and Wonder Woman set out to find Aquaman, The Flash, Cyborg, the others.! “I also I felt like, without Superman, there is definitely a vulnerability to the team that they’re gonna need to figure something out, you know? Superman does represent the powerful. He’s the Michael Jordan of heroes, he’s gonna score.”
! With him out of the picture, the League can’t rely on his invulnerability either. And a part of the reason they team up is to find a way to bring Superman back – much like the goal of Star Wars: The Force Awakens was to rediscover Luke Skywalker.
! Eh… Ok I guess, but there should have been some kind of establishing shot where he starts asking it question and it cuts away or something. It still felt like it came out of nowhere... or Lex should have said at the end "The Kryptonian Ship told me ___"
! I think the ship asked him about it and his answer was "Teach me" or was it "Tell me" I don't quite remember how it was worded, I just remember the "teach me" part.
! Not buying it. The stuff he saw of the Omega Sanction, The Parademons, and Flash were all portrayed as Dreams since it shows him waking up. I mean, the Flash part was kindof a fakeout wake up since it looked like he'd woken up… and then he woke up again, but it still did nothing to say that was anything more than a dream. If he'd been explicitly awake for the Barry part, I'd be ok but the movie tried to pass it off as part of the dream.
! No, you got me, it's a weird execution.
! It feels like while the story tries to build a coherent plot and tie most of the loose ends, the delivery and editing just breaks it all into a mess, for casual public it'll drag out too long and they stop caring when all the build up supposed to pay off, for those who can follow the delivery would be unsatisfactory.
BATMAN KILLS PEOPLE!!!…..
That car chase would benefit with removal of explosions. With the most glaring scene where Batwing just guns two cars down, maybe hook the first car and drag/flip it onto the second, for it to still look "cool"? I mean would that work?
! 1: HOW THE HELL did Lex Luthor know “Someone” from “Space” was coming at the end?! Will this be in the director’s cut?!?! Was it the Kryptonian Ship?!!? I must have missed where Lex got this information.
! When Lex was inside the Kryptonian ship it's AI mentioned while booting itself up that it has database on almost 1000,- or more 0's- worlds, so Lex took that opportunity learn about them. It's however unclear to me why or if he called Darkseid, was the Doomsday the trigger, was it Kryptonian ship, did he get influenced by Anti-Life equation and simply retained his wits because he is supposed to be Lex, or is he simply psyched to learn that there is an all-powerful God that is also all evil.
! 2: For that matter, HOW DID BRUCE know about Darkseid?!?! A running theme in the movie is these dreams Bruce has about his past, about being Batman etc… and one of them involves a totalitarian future where Superman rules the world and in it… there’s a giant Omega Sanction carved into the ground, and he’s attacked by Parademons.
! Multidimensional Echo maybe? I mean Bruce did get a fist through the chest Injustice-style
! 3: It ends with Barry Allen (I believe) popping out of the Speedforce to warn Batman something is coming and telling him to prepare… then he wakes up, it was a dream…… but this was BEFORE he saw the video about Flash (as it was still decrypting when he fell asleep) so… HOW did he know who Flash was? HOW did he know what Parademons and the Omega Sanction were??!?!?! Is he Psychic?!?! Was this supposed to be coincidence?! Was it supposed to be real somehow?!?!? He COINCIDENTALLY dreamed up The Flash, who he’s never met before, Parademons, and the Omega Sanction before ever having actually met or experienced these things?!?!?!?
! Both 2 and 3 issue are more suited for after credit scene, but I like how one user gave an explanation for it "It's time travel, he's breaking chronology. That's the joke. He even says he's too early."
! Jessie Eisenberg’s Lex….
Can't defend that one, found it too over the top but someone mentioned that underneath Eisenberg's performance, there's a decent Luthor, both in-character and the dialogue. Where it's the presentation that's the issue. His awkward moments could be explained with frustration to dumb down his speech for the masses, where his brain is faster than his mouth.
! Either way if DCEU is to survive I hope that prison time would benefit that Lex to mature up
Watched it, for what it was I've enjoyed it. I don't have problem with "not muh" "no fun". I'm writing out of theatre, so I won't be writing out wall of text. Audience gave applause.
After yesterday I already know I'll be in for a laugh.
-colony of bats
-cup
-horses
-spear fishing
-witch thing
And perhaps few others I am forgetting.
Committed but dead on the inside. I still take my amusement where I can, watching it all tumbling down.
Same here.
So Lef, party this Thursday?
Planning on sushi and lots of chit talking, I'm gonna be waking up early for this.
Concerning Lex I've already read his in-character interview, which gives us a look into what kind of a character Lex is being set up to be in the movie. I think Jesse will do fine, most of the important casting choices were met with much outlash starting from the announcement that Affleck would play Batman, now look where we are, both Eisenberg and Gadot are aware of the internet reaction to their casting from the sound of it, I have no issues giving them the benefit of doubt.
DC cinematic universe is such a gamble. The casting choices, tonal choices, style choices (I'm looking at you Suicide Squad) and what have you. I can't call that playing safe and I honestly find that charming, down that rabbit hole my curiosity brings me.
LEF!!!! Where have you been! We've missed you!
I hope all is well. When does the movie come out for you all over there…you are still in Ukraine???
I've just reverted back to my lurking ways. Checking ap once a day or two.
Got myself tickets for 24th and 29th all IMAX 3d (even if I loath 3d), bummed to learn that the closest 70mm IMAX is two countries over (whatever that means truly I have no idea but I just know it won't be a full picture ) I still remain in the same location
A small contribution to this thread
!
I think this picture captures my feelings about Snyder really well. I don't hate him, I appreciate his enthusiasm and attempt to bring some,…. I don't know subtext or depth to a film, but dammit I hope someday you will succeed. Stop failing Snyder
! "Git gud, or else..."
";_;"
In the process of getting scammed, and frankly I'm having a time of my life. When you're onto them and they have no idea, feels wonderful, even if petty.
@Monkey:
In the US a few years ago we had a big debate on dangerous political talk. Like all the extreme Republicans who casually used language like "targeting" democrats and gun sounding stuff like that. That they would inadvertently inspire crazy right wingers to actually make good on the subtext.
I wonder if Putin's (and others) rhetoric is inspiring far-right nutjobs who would do this.
And considering how many many more times shambolic Russia is than the States, as always multiply the odds of such a thing happening.
This is the harvest of creating political hysteria. But seriously wow nonetheless.
When was the last time something like this happened in Europe? (a sentence that sure has been happening a lot since last winter).
The most inspired are probably in east right now, the rest I would have written off more as brawl rather than killers, at least not that openly, not in such location it's a goddamn short walk to Kremlin (you can see the damn st basil's cathedral), there may be foul play or a sheer stupidity in action, I can't tell.
I wonder how much bigger that march is going to get because of this and how much more attention it might garner. One would think Putin wouldn't want to make him some kind of martyr so I doubt he had anything to do with this, or he really is an man that operates solely on trying to scare his opposition. It probably was just some of his misguided supporters taking some idiotic and extreme actions.
Well the anticrisis march was changed into mourning send-off(?) and location changed to the center of Moscow.
Ah well and russian news are saying that police is searching Nemtsov home (noted that some comments seem to mention that Nemtsov was preparing a report on russian forces involvement in Ukraine)
Damn, I have a hard time wrapping my head around eastern european politics. Seem like there is so much oportunism and backstabbing along with the corruption that you litterally can't trust anything, anyone ever says. How is the situation where you live in Ukraine right now?
I'm living in capital, we don't get bombs going off(like in Odessa and Kharkiv and more so in the conflict zone), which is nice, economy is particularly in vegetable state of existence hooked to life support, prices rose, currency fell, and yes its understandable that we are in a state of hybrid war, but that will never excuse corruptioners staying in their comfortable places, nor the neglect of reforms. If not for this war and Crimea there would of been bigger pressure on government, more radical actions taken against corrupt (on behalf of people), volunteers that spend money to support the army could have invested in economic developments. But yeah, we have what we have, compromising with Putin would probably mean our taxes would go to support his 'autonomies' which would be a pill too bitter to swallow. And that's the gist of it.
So you think some radical Putinists could be the shooters? That is also a possibility I am open to.
I think it won't matter who the shooter is. Whoever they will bring forward to court will be doubted, besides Putin made a statement that this case would be under his watch(that statement was laced with all of 'it's not us, it's provocation, we will find those responsible, this is so horrible). It really won't matter who the shooter was, each side would see different context in that deed.
Personally being involved in one of sides of this conflict, I'm leaning that it's Putin and his supporters (although supporters are usually more about brawl and beating people up than straight up murdering them, and from some comments I've gotten an impression that Nemtsov was heavily monitored by Russian ..uh, different, services)
Either Putin is getting sloppy or Nemtsov was involved in some real shady shit with the Bratva. A politician in Russia live a dangerous life.
Putin doesn't really have to do much, supporters of his politics see this as a provocation, from opposition, from Ukraine, from USA (to start revolution in Russia obviously), calling it "sacred victim"(sacred lamb? I'm not really sure how that would translate properly). I mean the argument is "Well Putin couldn't be that sloppy"
One of opposition figures of Russia, Boris Nemtsov, been shot to death tonight-ish.
!
Side-note 1 He voiced concerns for his own life in interview on 10th of February.
Side-note 2, on 1st of March there is suppose to be a anticrisis rally/march in Russia.
Our government is saying they officially asking for UN to deploy their forces(peacekeepers?) to regulate the conflict zone. I mean that ended up in news but how official official should it be? And who gets to decide to either deploy them or not? UN council? Poroshenko is talking of keeping Russia out of participating in the possible operation, since Russia ..uh was voted to be an aggressor side in the conflict on one of previous RADA sessions, but that shouldn't mean anything to UN council so how safe can we be from the possibility of further involvement of Russia (I mean Russia was pretty eager to deploy their peacekeepers at the beginning from what I recall)
Russia representative in UN council states that this deployment would be against Minsk agreements, also the pseudo-leaders against such action as well. Do they fear the possibility of being left out of the possible operation?
I guess our government is admitting that they don't see the possibility of all those territories getting back under control for long time, so it's more practical to freeze this conflict and concentrate on our economy(which is close to it's death door)
I despise everything there is about this
And this sums up the reason why this ceasefire sucks for us
Otherwise a year ago this day was the start of bloodbath on maidan (18-19 of february)
I've looked into it, Our sources name Zolote(occupied territory) Sanzharivka(occupied territory) Popasna(Ukraine controlled territory) Chornukhine(Ukraine controlled territory), I've looked up those territories on liveuamap. And from what I gathered russian media is spreading info that Right Wing continuing fighting at Debaltseve despite ceasefire, citing an article on National Guard of Ukraine site. Link to that whole incident: 1,2
-ukrainian version of article was written with mistakes
-Yarosh has no connections with National Guard
-does not have two battalions
-the said article was first dated
., an even earlier version of googlecache showed a different article all together.Otherwise without videos/photos/geolocations everything else is a hear-say, Peter Shuklinov mentioning attacks being made on Mariupol but frankly thats like 20 km away from possible positions of enemy plus no one from Mariupol to confirm.
Poroshenko gave a ceasefire order(well 17 min ago). Also in that order he made a statement that Ukraine invited special monitoring-team from OSCE to Debaltseve to make sure the ceasefire is being implemented from both sides.
Poroszenko can't back down either, since majority of his electorat are western Urkainians, favoring nationalistic and anti-russian stances, at the moment. Eastern Ukrainians don't seem to care either way, as far as I can tell siding with whichever side currently holds the territory.
Nationalists and anti-russian(when its not quite accurate I prefer using anti-kremlin) voted Yarosh that is close to 2% on elections, Poroshenko been chosen because he seemed like someone who is neutral and have interest in improving Ukraine economy plus the whole one-tour elections, nationalists hate him.
Evidence of russian tech being present been passed around as photos of said military tech and its markings(numbers/symbols), russian flag being present wouldn't surprise anyone, either way all of that is buried underneath lots of internet debris, there been photos videos with geolocations attached, as in street views and all that stuff, when the attack came from Russian territory one particular case because I had those locations bookmarked and managed to backtrack to source.
Everyone clueless why all of the revelation of evidence is taking so long, but then we still have the same bodies sitting in those spots, with some of our generals being traitors and selling info is it really that questionable there won't be insiders working in other branches.
Darth, you're not bringing any solutions to the table. If all of this was about analyzing things from different perspective then that was done already before, is it really necessary to mention this? Not really. If it been another country in familiar situation with sides reversed we would still have this thread (minus myself because I prefer to stay in the sidelines watching). It's pointless. I don't possibly see where you want to go with all of this.
Evidence, here the latest one link - Tornado-S, Ukraine with as shitty army as it had for all those years don't have that weapon, its only used in Russia.
"Source? The original neutrality of Ukraine came from the 1990 declaration in independence, supported further by 1996 Ukraine constitution, and 2010 confirmation of earlier politics. None of those years corespond with major trade sanctions against Ukraine.
If anything, my research shows that Russian politics is mostly reactive towards the issue. Admittedly, it wasn't in-depth research. If you have things proving situation to be to the contrary, I would be happy to see it."
What the hell that got to do with anything. Russia been banning products because they found them not up to standards (like month or longer before Yanukovych turned down that deal), then implements some new system to cross the border for transporting goods, creating huge lines and unhappy people. Then started hinting at gas prices, debts, said the Ukraine won't be able to keep a good economical ties with Russia's version of economical union.
… How is that even remotely similar? It's like equalizing: You support democracy = You support every democracy.
Not the same.
And for the record, I consider Putin a short-sighted idiot, who really should read more Machiavelli in his spare time.
Then we agree that Putin is an idiot, and by reading Machiavelli he would reach what conclusion?
@Monkey:
For those not "in the know", Darth is someone actively supportive of authoritarian government as a viable model.
So a Putin apologist? Yeah…. I'd rather not deal with those...
Right why even care if Ukraine gets absorbed by Russia, right it shouldn't be your concern. Not even the fact that Ukraine gave up its nuclear warheads in return for assured 'protection' of its territorial integrity by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation(HaHA), the United States of America, and the United Kingdom in Budapest Memorandum.
Edit: It's your right not to care, but don't go preaching others that they shouldn't care about things(besides Russian media blames USA and NATO in the whole conflict already)
…I'm not even sure how to comment on such development. Wishing ill on those who don't participate in Putin's charade game is unfortunate and was not an intention, but russian media and those that follow it makes it very easy to group Kremlin and russian population as one. I do remind myself that not everyone in Russia supports Putin (and those who openly oppose him have a hard time) but I don't really see a solution that would stop him unless Ukraine manage to take the occupied territories under the control?
! If Putin is taken out of equation the other Kremlin players still remain, are they 100% loyal to Putin goals, do they share the same mindset or do they play along to Putin's tune to continue living as they are?
! What if Ukraine finally takes control of the occupied territories by force, would that stop the flow of russian military (Tch, such a shame Russia doubled its efforts by the end of August) In theory the picture of 'overthrowing government/uprising/revolutions lead to awful results' has been made, country's economy took a huge hit that we would be recovering from for a long time. If the conflict ends then sanctions would be probably lifted fast judging by previous Russia's ventures.
! Is the prospect of Ukraine in NATO such a nightmare to Putin that he would have throw everything under the bus to prevent that?
! If Ukraine cut's its losses short, who's to say that it won't attempt to spread and connect to Crimea, now that part of the territories are assured to be under enemy's control?
! If we cave in and give the autonomy to those territories…..and throw huge amount of money at them (chechnya scenario).....lol hell no. That would be a pill too huge to swallow.
Apparently our President made a statement: "In case of ceasefire not going into effect, Martial law would be declared in whole country" something like that but that sounds like just a statement and not something our President will probably act upon.
France doesn't want us in NATO, neither are other I suppose.
Maybe I missed it but would Ukraine still be able to join NATO even with the east's autonomy or would it make it impossible/much more difficult?
President insisted that those territories won't be getting status of autonomies, nor would Ukraine turn to federation. I think in theory those territories would be able to select their own uh regional prosecutor or something like that, based on this post some sad pro-russian user wrote
"is a betrayal of everything LNR DNR stood for;
LNR and DNR just some regions of Donetsk Lugansk regions with clownish half-autonomies rights;
This also contradicts Russia's interest and goals and russian politic in Ukraine that hoped to turn LNR DNR into territories that would block Ukraine from joining NATO and EU. As it is this agreement cannot make DNR and LNR forbid Ukraine from joining NATO. They can only select their own regional prosecutor.
The agreement contradicts not only every set goals in this uprising, but also russian political interest in Ukraine.
And this means it won't hold for long, if it'll even come into effect" something along those lines
A deal aimed at ending the fighting in eastern Ukraine has been agreed, following marathon talks in Belarus.
The leaders of Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France announced that a ceasefire would begin on 15 February.
The deal also involves the withdrawal of heavy weapons from conflict areas, but some issues remain to be settled.
The pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine have signed the agreement. Thousands of people have died in almost a year of fighting in the region.
The agreement - reached after 17 hours of negotiations in Minsk - includes:
- Ceasefire to begin on 15 February
- Heavy weapons to be pulled out: Beginning on 17 February and completed in two weeks
- All prisoners to be released; amnesty for those involved in fighting
- Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, weapons and mercenaries from Ukrainian territory. Disarmament of all illegal groups
- Ukraine to allow resumption of normal life in rebel areas, by lifting restrictions
- Constitutional reform to enable decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015
- Ukraine control of border with Russia to be completed by the end of 2015
Editor's note: Below is the unofficial translation of the full text of agreements reached by the leaders of Germany, France, Ukraine and Russia in Minsk on Feb. 12, 2015.
source
! 1. Immediate and full cease-fire in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine and its strict fulfillment as of 00 hours 00 minutes (Kyiv time) on Feb. 15, 2015.
! 2. Pull-out of all heavy weapons by both sides to equal distance with the aim of creation of a security zone on minimum 50 kilometers apart for artillery of 100 mm caliber or more, and a security zone of 70 km for MLRS and 140 kilometers for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch and tactical missile systems Tochka U.- for Ukrainian troops, from actual line of contact;
! The pullout of the above mentioned heavy weapons has to start no later than the second day after the cease-fire and finish within 14 days.
! This process will be assisted by OSCE with the support of the Trilateral Contact Group.
! 3. Effective monitoring and verification of cease-fire regime and pullout of heavy weapons by OSCE will be provided from the first day of pullout, using all necessary technical means such as satellites, drones, radio-location systems etc.
! 4. On the first day after the pullout a dialog is to start on modalities of conducting local elections in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,” and also about the future of these districts based on the above mentioned law.
! Without delays, but no later than 30 days from the date of signing of this document, a resolution has to be approved by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, indicating the territory which falls under the special regime in accordance with the law “On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts,” based in the line set up by the Minsk Memorandum as of Sept. 19, 2014.
! 5. Provide pardon and amnesty by way of enacting a law that forbids persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in particular departments of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts of Ukraine.
! 6. Provide release and exchange of all hostages and illegally held persons, based on the principle of “all for all”. This process has to end – at the latest – on the fifth day after the pullout (of weapons).
! 7. Provide safe access, delivery, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid to the needy, based on an international mechanism.
! 8. Define the modalities of a full restoration of social and economic connections, including social transfers, such as payments of pensions and other payments (income and revenue, timely payment of communal bills, restoration of tax payments within the framework of Ukrainian legal field)
! With this aim, Ukraine will restore management over the segment of its banking system in the districts affected by the conflict, and possibly, an international mechanism will be established to ease such transactions.
! 9. Restore full control over the state border by Ukrainian government in the whole conflict zone, which has to start on the first day after the local election and end after the full political regulation (local elections in particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts based on the law of Ukraine and Constitutional reform) by the end of 2015, on the condition of fulfillment of Point 11 – in consultations and in agreement with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts within the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
! 10. Pullout of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, and also mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine under OSCE supervision. Disarmament of all illegal groups.
! 11. Constitutional reform in Ukraine, with the new Constitution to come into effect by the end of 2015, the key element of which is decentralization (taking into account peculiarities of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, agreed with representatives of these districts), and also approval of permanent legislation on special status of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts in accordance with the measures spelled out in the footnotes, by the end of 2015.
MINIMUM 50 KM?!
*this post was ready long ago but i took my sweet time in photoshop with this map
Few points to note
!
Click on screenshot to see the post in question
Click on screenshot to see the off. translation in question
whistle…
Today came across this, the source comes from a deputy and a commander of battalion Azov:
From press-service
The commander of "Azov" shared exclusive details of successful offensive operations near Mariupol
-Andrei, how are things progressing?
-In short: four settlements are now ours, and the battle for other two is underway, doing a clean up on checkpoints. On the radio we heard panic, the enemy is requesting for help and draw everything they can from Russia. In addition, part of russian artillery force, which was based in Debaltsevo area is being urgently sent to our sector.
-How severe are the losses on enemy and our sides?
-Can't name the exact figures when battle is still in progress, - this is a speculation. I will say this - their side have dozens of dead. We also have suffered damage - injuries, no dead at this moment. Apart of that, destroyed armored vehicle of enemy - few APC(armoured personnel carrier). We've driven the enemy forces some distance away, where they won't be able to work on Mariupol with "Grads". But their side still have "Smerch" and other artillery. Our goal - Novoazovsk.
-Wouldn't then arise a situation, like during summer, where our troops near the border would get bombarded from the territory of Russian federation? -No. Firstly Ukraine has all the necessary resources for construction of reliable fortifications. Secondly, nobody canceled maneuvering.
- Does AFU(Armed Forces of Ukraine) and artillery support you?
- I cannot disclose those details at the moment. I will say this: it's complicated. "Azov" for AFU is like the least favorite stepchild.
-It seems that the attack was a complete surprise for the militants. How was it possible to preserve the leak of information.
- A surprise - it's true, 100%. I will repeat - the panicked and asked for backup from everywhere. As for information leakage - the impending operation was known only to the unit. Therefore our offense was a shock for an enemy
^implications that they didn't disclose details about operation to higher ups at AFU, because it's generally expected that its full of traitors, Azov as it is is probably the only unit to take advantage of concentration of enemy forces around one area (Debaltsevo) whereas generals just chill
If it's true, then good god, at last, some positive developments for our side. Different points and arguments were raised other this(which I decided to review only now, which makes the whole things not as noteworthy but I've already wrote and translated all of the post above so might as well just post it):
-Those locations were a buffer zone which held no real value, and the whole thing is nothing amazing
-Those locations were no longer just a buffer zone with enemy forces just recently having every intention to recapture Mariupol, implying that those locations were de-facto under control of enemy.
-It's a bad move because the unit left their previous well fortified place and moved to open fields, where they would have no protection and are defenseless
-It's a feint, objection of which to pull away some of enemy forces from Debaltsevo area, the proclaimed goal of going after Novoazovsk is a bluff
Taking the current situation in account (with Debaltsevo, Azov and yesterday possible destruction of enemies weapon storehouse) tomorrow negotiations results better not end up in cease-fire (the cease fire is gonna be one sided and otherwise awful awful awful thing)
@Monkey:
Lef do you suppose Putin's stopping point might be the Dnieper river?
EDIT: Ruble at 70 right now lol.
The currency of Dorian Gray.
If he's planning for Crimea to have access to fresh water, sure (as if it's not getting it right now, but shutting down all of communications will probably result heavy critique from west and more food for Russian media). Otherwise allll of his plans just bring more harm than good to his country(economically speaking, I mean political leaders of today think first of all about economical gain be it theirs or nation), I don't get how he thought any of this is a good idea.
Also
-The rebels say they have fully seized the nearby town of Vuhlehirsk, but the Ukrainian military denies this.
-Russia's Vesti TV news programme says some 8,000 Ukrainian troops are surrounded in Debaltseve. It also quotes the rebels as saying they have pushed Ukrainian troops out of Vuhlehirsk, though rebel positions in the village are still being shelled.
-Meanwhile, a Ukrainian MP in the conflict zone, Semen Semenchenko, says the rebels now control part of Vuhlehirsk, but that Ukrainian troops are still holding out there amid heavy shelling.
Source
Semen Semenchenko post was probably the most realistic since two other mp reported - "everything fine, totally cool". But that was like 8-9 hours ago.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
When the propaganda machine fails
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-28/sorry-ukraine-you-can-t-beat-putin
Apologies for the article but I do feel it raises a truthful point. I don't want to portray a defeatist attitude because I don't want to make it seem like I was in the fight or involved in any sorta way. I don't want to make it seem like I can make that determination because I can't. My question to you, Lef, is this. Do you personally feel it was all worth it? The outing of Viktor, the breakaway from Russia, the shift to the West? For things lost…
I hold this strange view that if something bad happens its a pay for something good that either will happen or already happened. Usually that applied to life in general. Maidan made young people and some older generations grow desire for improving the country they are living in for better, made people realize they had some backbone to stand up to those who abused them, so to say (it doesn't matter if they had an inside help with Yanukovych or not, the general consensus is that people can make a change). About Crimea i'd say it made world take interest in Ukraine, with east and south taking active part in showing their patriotism to defend from possible Russias 'protection'. The most glaring example would be Dnipropetrovsk. For east…unfortunately as it is Ukraine is sending its best to death, there are in general a desire to return to Kiev and finish what maidan started - a purge of corrupt and guilty officials(but because of history no one wants a repeat of 1920's), in a way... east conflict repairs our army(it was non-existent before that), the sanctions on Russia sets the clock ticking, its a race of who gets exhausted first, unfortunately Ukraine had a headstart in that race but it gets financial help from other countries, for now. The best thing citizens can do is stand up to remaining corrupt, strive to become a part of the system and change it from inside.
It's a process, and since I have a side I'm cheering for I'm biased, plus stubborn and its early to say if it was worth it. My family would say no, I would say yes, this all is far from over. Otherwise all of people who took sides during maidan mostly stick to them, those that found it genuine would say it was worth it, those that disliked it for a mess it made and are of an opinion that people were manipulated would say no(but those are also a people who adapted to living in corrupt shady system, I know my dad is the one, kick out Russian embassy make all their diplomatic power null and my dad wouldn't be able to drive around as recklessly as he used to, I once heard young ambitious people refer to people like that as dinosaurs who wouldn't know any other way of handling things, and my dad would probably call them naive young fools whom the system would devour). So the views are something like that I suppose.
PS: can anyone humor me on hypothetical possible interest USA can have in toppling Russia with having Ukraine ally with NATO (my dad actually raised that point, for shame OTZ !)
@dirt:
trust me, I ain't going anywhere any time soon
Forgive me, I made a huge mistake by participating in imgur chit chat with one of "neutral news follower", spent full day bringing up old posts and stuff on controversial things that our side was guilty of.
! Few statements before I dive in, I live in Kiev, speak russian, was apolitical before the 2013 not paying much attention to history back in school (which I regret now).
! 2013 July - Russia halts imports of chocolate from one of Ukraine's main confectionery makers, Roshen, saying its products fall below safety standards, in what is seen as retaliation for Ukraine's efforts to integrate further with the EU.
! -On Nov. 21, 2013 the government of Mykola Azarov has suspended preparations for signing the Association Agreement with the EU, which was going to be approved at the Vilnius summit of Eastern Partnership in late November. The news sparked outrage in the community. Excuses of the authorities that the signing of this document allegedly could provoke rupture of economic ties with Russia, and the promise of "overestimating" the consequences of signing the Agreement (which was prepared for several years) for Ukraine, did not calm critics, they accuse the government of bowing to Russian pressure, as well as being corrupt and unaccountable.
! Mustafa Nayyem‘s Facebook post, widely credited with sparking the protests.
[Screenshot text: Meeting at 10:30pm near the Independence monument. Dress warmly, bring umbrellas, tea, coffee, good mood and friends. Reposts are encouraged!]
As you can see it was a rather small gathering. Students and then-opposition leaders joined the movement shortly after, hoping to persuade the president Yanukovych to sign the Association Agreement with the EU. When the day came for Vilnius summit of Eastern Partnership, he didn't sign it.
! There was an outcry**, and that would have been it**. But…
! - On the night of 30 November 2013 at 04:00, armed with batons, stun grenades, and tear gas, Berkut special police units attacked and dispersed all remaining protesters from Maidan Nezalezhnosti while suppressing mobile phone communications. The police attacked not only the protesters (most of whom didn't or failed to put up resistance) but also other civilians in the vicinity of Maidan Nezalezhnosti, when the Berkut forces chased unarmed people several hundreds of meters and continued to beat them with batons and feet. At 09:20 Berkut besieged the St. Michael's Golden-Domed Monastery where approximately 50 Euromaidan activists, including the injured, found sanctuary. Police spokeswoman Olha Bilyk justified the police raid by saying that protesters were interfering with preparations to decorate the square for the Christmas and New Year's holidays, and accused them of throwing stones and burning logs.
! On 30 November 2013 by 13:00 another spontaneous meeting was taking place at St. Michael's Square near the St. Michael's Monastery as Maidan Nezalezhnosti continued to be guarded by the Berkut formations. People set up audio system so that anyone who wanted to speak out could do that, suggestions, opinions, and inspiration speeches. A more active part of gathering begun to form units of self-defense. All in all people were enraged by the government actions.
! The next morning that I woke up have been to news channels covering events in which protesters managed to take back the Maidan from berkut formation, and occupy public building. Mostly they stated what already happened, I had to trace it back, the best sources I found to do that at the time was babylon’13 channel on youtube, and hromadske tv channel. Those two really captured the moments.
! Babylon’13 got english subtitles.
! And like that formed the euromaidan as most know it, it was just in name, since most of people at that point had goals of holding government accountable, not of EU integration, from then on it took lesser priority.
! And it was at that point that formed the Antimaidan, as it was, it was paid pro-government gathering. If I had any benefit of doubt about that, I got to become friends with one of the dude’s that went to one of antimaidan protests, for sole purpose of investigating it, he earned his 200 uah that day.
! Russian media was hysteric since the beginning and up to this day. It had it instances of being comedic, shocking and mind blowing. Those that followed it, supported antimaidan, believed it’s lies and came to loath everyone who associated with maidan movement, as “nazis”, which is funny because strictly in russian they used “fascists” but those that spread the word of russian media to english speakers used “nazis”.
! The reason maidan was painted as nazi-movement is because of nationalistic factions that joined together and became Right Wing, with Yarosh as its leader. The nationalistic movement holds Bandera in high regards because he wanted independence for Ukraine, to free it from soviet clutches. They collaborated with nazis at the beginning because they saw them as a chance for the country’s independence , when it turned out to be dead end, they fought against soviets and nazis. Turns out that in many cases ‘nazi’ and ‘fascists’ becomes everyone’s favorite buzzword, that maidan hates russians. Which wasn't the case, people welcomed russian flags on maidan, but were strongly against the soviet fans.
! Since the start of maidan it was honestly stuck , the protesters refused to leave the Independence square and quite effectively barricaded and made themselves almost at home. Another thing that was presented as gathering of homeless scum, that made a mess of center of capital. Occasional, in retrospect, confrontations took places, during that long period of peace and calm formed automaidan and self-defense units. Automaidan would take protests to work places and homes of government officials, self-defense units remained on maidan to keep it orderly, defend in case of police crackdown, deal with provocateurs, drunks and troublemakers(titushkas).
! Antimaidan occasionally would gather under the banner of Party of regions, President Yanukovich political party which held a majority in parliament.
! Things escalated when government passed anti-protest laws on 16 January which criminalized all of the Euromaidan opposition's methods employed during protests. The laws introduced 10-year jail terms for blockading government buildings; hefty fines and prison terms for protesters who wear face masks and helmets; fines and prison terms for unauthorised installation of and provision of facilities or equipment for tents, stages or amplifiers in public places; and driving bans for people who form convoys of more than five cars. That almost a week later resulted Hrushevskoho Street riots .
! With protestors, and Right wing members using cocktails Molotovs, bats, and shields (stolen from berkut during earlier confrontations) they attempted to force their way to government district. On maidan side that resulted in 6 protestors dead, lots of videos and photos, on antimaidan side of things that resulted photo’s videos of Internal forces getting set aflame and bombarded with bricks and stones.
The mutual loathing continued to grow. During that period occasional truces would take place during which protesters talked with those serving in internal forces in attempt to bring then over to their side.
! Days passed on and on, attempts on solving the dilemma politically continued
! On 18 February 2014, 20,000 Euromaidan protesters in Kiev advanced on Ukraine's parliament in support of rolling back the Constitution of Ukraine to its pre-2004 form. Guns been fired, using both live and rubber ammunition, police used tear gas and flash grenades in an attempt to repel thousands of demonstrators, who fought back with crude weapons and cocktails of Molotov. That and the following day was the bloodiest in whole period of maidan. Many controversial speculations go around, a lot of protestors were killed(including one of our students from university who was day away from receiving his diploma), among around 100 of dead - 16 police officers. A long day of mourning followed the bloodshed, another attempt at making political peace was made by opposition leaders and government. During the grieving people from one of self-defense units proclaimed that are not going to accept any deals with government( the deal was that president stays in power for another year) and put forth an ultimatum, Yanokovich should get out before 10:00 am.
! The next day villa of Yanukovich was found empty. In Parliament, Speaker Volodymyr Rybak submitted his resignation, citing alleged illness. Yanukovych's whereabouts were unknown despite media reports he had flown to Kharkiv( from where he fled later on to Russia). Oleksandr Turchynov stated that in fact most of the ministers had disappeared as well as Interior Minister Vitaly Zakharchenko (who is reported to have fled to Belarus) and President Viktor Yanukovych, "The only one legitimate body left is the Verkhovna Rada – so we are here to vote today. The major tasks for today are: to vote for the new speaker, prime minister and interior minister Parliament voted Tuchynov as new speaker. On 23 February, Turchynov was also chosen as temporary president.
! The parliament also followed a request of the nationalist party Swoboda to declare a law as invalid which allowed regions to establish several official languages if more than 10% of it’s inhabitants speak a different language.
! 24 February The European commission acknowledges the Ukrainian parliament’s decision to deselect Yanukovych as president and accepts the new government as legitimate. The commission also declares its willingness to still sign the contract for association and free trade between the EU and Ukraine but postpones further talks about the contracts until after the presidential election.
! 26 February The so called Maidan council agrees to name Arseni Jazeniuk as interim prime minister as well as deciding on other members of the interim cabinet.
! 27 February The interim cabinet and prime minister are elected/confirmed by the parliament. Five members of the new cabinet are members of the fatherland party, three are part of the nationalist Swoboda party. No members of Klitschko’s UDAR party are part of it.
! These developments provoke Russian president Putin to invade the Crimea. The Euromaidan protests lead to the 2014 Crimean Crisis.
! Why was Crime and east so full of people with antimaidan sentiment.
! -memory of soviet good old times
-belief that maiden was west(USA, EU, NATO) plan
-belief that nazis were ruling the country
-hate toward maidan for harming police forces
-belief that the russian language will be banned
-belief that nazi’s from Right Wing will come to Crimea to wreak havok
! Kernes a mayor of Kharkiv called forth Congress of the Southern and Eastern regions, which many believed to result in call for help from Russia, or proclamation of breaking away and establishing their own country so to say. Surprisingly they didn't, they simply passed a resolution, declaring that they are ready to take responsibility for protecting constitutional order in their territory.
! Now I truly dont remember at which point exactly did paid actors(or titushkas or russian officers) pulled that stunt, but it was somewhere in beginning. Out of nowhere proclaimed Right wing activist from Lviv(that is a city from west Ukraine, which makes it very pro-ukrainian) come along on bus with crimean number plate, pull out guns and start to shoot them at police officers I think? The whole exchange is being filmed by russian media.
! People are even more convinced that its Right Wing coming to set their rule, ban their language oppress them
! Protestors at Crimea attempted to take over their parliament first time but failed when Crimea tatars stepped in. All seemed well and happy frankly, I took it as something to look forward to since both maidan and antimaidan held a negative opinion on then opposition leaders, easily could those two put government under pressure it could have been a beginning, an attempt to eradicate corruption. Heck Right wing and some of maidan activists and temporary government were at each other necks .
! But then started to appear what many call is “green men”. Crimea has a navy russian base – Black sea Fleet. They were armed men in military uniform without signs of identification who were prepared far better than you usual protestor. They called themselves militia. Long story short they took over parliament, the parliament held an emergency session. It voted to terminate the Crimean government, and replace Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov with Sergey Aksyonov. Aksyonov belonged to the Russian Unity party, which received 4% of the vote in the last election. It also voted to hold a referendum on greater autonomy on 25 May(which in the end got moved to earlier date)
! Central government didn’t attempt much action. During all of this Crimea had its fair share of pro-ukrainian rallies.
! On March 1, 2014 the de facto Crimean Prime Minister Sergey Aksyonov appealed directly to Russian President Vladimir Putin in a signed statement calling for Russia to "provide assistance in ensuring peace and tranquility on the territory" of Crimea. Meanwhile, Aksyonov took control of "security [in Crimea] on a temporary basis", he said. All commanders are to obey his orders or "resign". Akysonov also announced that the date of the self-sovereignty referendum was moved up to 30 March.
! Protests against the new authorities in Kiev and in support of Russians in Crimea occurred throughout Eastern and Southern Ukraine on March 1.
! On March 1, the interim president of Ukraine, Turchynov, signed a decree declaring the appointment of Sergei Aksyonov as the head of the government of Crimea to be unconstitutional.
! Russian President Vladimir Putin formally asked the Federation Council for permission to "use the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine until the normalization of the socio-political situation in the that country." Hours later, the Federation Council voted unanimously to grant permission.
! The Consulate of the Russian Federation in Simferopol started to issue Russian passports to residents of Ukraine. Members of the former Ukrainian riot police, Berkut, were among the first in Crimea to be granted Russian citizenship.
! Ukrainian military bases started to be surrounded by green men, Putin order tons of military exercises near Ukrainian borders. Central government still tells military to stay put, keep on defense, basically to stand around and do nothing.
! That resulted in some bases to be taken over, some soldiers to side with Crimean new government, some to stay put and hope for the best.
! Referendum scheduled for 30 March, got moved up to 16 March 2014.
! Crimeans vote in a referendum to rejoin Russia or return to its status under the 1992 constitution. Not following the usual procedures, you could vote with your passport or you can vote without it, you can go to any location and vote again, the bulletins didn’t have any protection marks either.
! On March 16, 2014, Crimean news agencies are now reporting that the official results of the referendum are in, and the region overwhelmingly voted to re-join Russia. Some 95.5% of voters in Crimea have supported joining Russia, officials say. Election officials said the turnout was a record high, beating the numbers who vote in local elections.
! After that Ukrainian side kept dragging and doing very little, while pro-russian Crimea was quite busy with its green men, adjusting to russian laws and so on.
! Ended that part with ukraine calling to withdraw it’s remaining soldiers from peninsula. Whom were then stationed over to other regions.
! And then we come to third part of this all I’d say…The unrest in East, Anti-terrorist operation which turned into war, clash in Odessa that had somewhere around or less 50 dead from both sides. Malaysian MH17 airplane getting shot down. Slow and steady isolation of Russia from world. Period of Peace, in name only.
I am crap at constructing my walls of text, I had time today to refresh my memory on earlier stages of Ukrainian crisis, Didn't yet get a chance to look back at timeline on it's third stage I'd say.
Basically each side hates one another guts, more bitterness at times grows, people getting more involved by supporting one or the other side, justifications becomes easy, everyone blames one another. Huge body count keeps growing steady, economy being shaky and constantly getting beat up further.
The way I see it, Putin needed to make an impression on his electorate, give them something to be proud of, Crimea is easy target plus the possibilities of Russian aggression against Ukraine been predicted years ago. He takes Crimea, part of russians are filled with pride, Crimea back home, to connect with it they planned to throw money in making a bridge which would of connected Crimea with Russia, the plans got downgraded as sanctions rained down. The conflict in east, if those lands became controlled by Russia, so to say, it would have clear and easy access to Peninsula, or they can put their own people if ukraine central government agreed to separatists demands to change ukraine to a federation, but for now they have a good picture to show to its people what revolutions lead to, to discourage them from even thinking about it. Best case scenario for Russia would have been to take southern-east and connect with both Crimea and Transnistria(to which Russia refused to give more money to because of harsh economical situation it experiencing, or so I've heard recently)
Oh, how interesting, I was about to just do that, only for one of imgur users. Ah, I'll try to compile the timeline as fast as possible and post it then.
@Cyan:
We'll see his body strung up from the Winter Palace before 2020.
Fingers crossed.
Although I doubt that'll happen
Honestly the situation is so shite, it gets depressing to follow the daily news. Which in a way kinda coincide with last year… the bus shooting in Volnovakha, Donetsk airport, soldiers that died there, those that got imprisoned, checkpoint getting captured, another bus shooting in Donetsk, village Krasnyi Partizan captured by pro-russian forces, today attack on Mariupol (which pro-russian forced admitted as being their advancement on Mariupol, 30 civilian dead, 97 injured, east side of the city that was attacked is being evacuated to west side), forming of new potential encirclement around Debaltseve. But hey, peace.
People on net claim that damage is irreparable. But I don't get why? Personally all I see is new tracks formed because of stunt, but I think it should be possible to just cover them with pebbles? Unless the permanent damage being to it's integrity, that's been preserved up to that point.
The most offensive tracks, the one made presumably by their car, outlined in red. Other is there for visitors, so their car can just follow the path already made.
Special security measures are usually implemented for visitors.
Thank you for the clarification. I think what you mean by "arab emirates president" is Salman bin Abdulaziz, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia.
I checked again, and yes the comment was talking about Saudi Arabia, dunno why I mixed the two.
Pretty funny. Most of the top comments on that video are in Russian, I bet they are glorifying Putin while denouncing America and the rest of the free world.
No, it's mostly russians vs ukrainians in comment section, throwing insults toward each other, and their presidents. Obama is only mentioned in context of -well he is sitting by himself too. And that arab emirates president (?) didn't sit together with Obama, which is supposedly a good sign.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794165753958452&set=vb.180812578627109&type=2&theater Video of the protest.
And with that i'm off guys. If everything goes alright i'll be back in the night.
Best of luck to you, and the folks involved!
Today mark the 1-year anniversary of EuromaidanRevolution.
! It was so small at the start, something that would die out in month or two, and people paid little mind to it, me included, because EU association deal wouldn't have magically make everything right in my country, there was no reason to truly be upset…
! I was even of opinion for short while that someone deliberately ordered a violent dispersal of protesters on 30 November, to fuel it. But one day later, with no higher up brought to justice for committed crime, it became clear that our then-government was just that dumb. And with that, I've been following the progress of the movement, its aftermath, and events that followed after, albeit lately not as attentively as I should have….
! It did bring about positive changes, but at great price... If I am to be fair, the trade-off wasn't equal at all, Russia meddling tipped the scales quite a lot. People effort could have been channeled into controlling the government, keeping it clean and tidy, thinking of ways to make our economy flourish. Instead the efforts are spread thin between supporting soldiers, refugees, and attempts to clean the remains of old regime.
Funny, back when I've been creating this thread so much was happening in Venezuela and Thailand as well. From what I understand the movement in Venezuela is on decline (?) while in Thailand protests eventually resulted in change of power with followed Coup d'état of caretaker government and apparently an establishment of junta (I can't take this word seriously).
And today, I can recall the most recent ongoing unrest being in Hong Kong, the one in Mexico and Ferguson. How would those pan out in the end I wonder…
@Monkey:
The above is a really really good guess. It's what China pulled in Hong Kong, it has a long history. I'm sure it happened in Ukraine when Russia still had pull in Kiev.
In a way it's what Russia is doing with their soldiers in the east.It's the age of information, so the wars of disinformation are what is on now.
I don't know why though, but I think we Americans expect better of the Mexican government…for some reason that makes little sense when I think about it.
Yes the tactic was used on a daily basis, but the thugs(titushkas), were it, not military, thats why I'm confused, one would think that having thugs do the dirty work would be more beneficial… unless those are thugs recruited, and its military giving them a tour.
Still dumb, couldn't they hire a bus for that? Bus would have been less eye-catching… berkut & co been touring in buses back in the day....
I'm still unable to find any live feeds :sad:
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
They mix in with the crowd. Creat havoc, burns thing or loot stores and give the police an excuse to arrest people on inexistent charges or just mistreat people (read: beat the shit out of them) . It's a tactic they have used since a long time. They also pay for people to infiltrate movements or even create a whole movement an the followers don't even know they are being utilized. In the 68 they used the same tactic in Tlatelolco. It wasn't pretty. I have two give two remedial classes but i'll try to put more info before i go.
a bbc quick video : https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=920697427949384
(i know, i know. Facebook info but it's hard to find sources in english).
http://www.webcamsdemexico.com/webcam-mexico-zocalo.html This Webcam films México downtown so you can watch it unfold (No sound tho).
https://www.facebook.com/manuel.ulloacolonia/posts/10152512421026045 Demonstration in París.
Great! Thanks for feed! I'll go to links now-
more Photos of the military: https://www.facebook.com/inRainbowsMay/posts/10152546773004702
They yelled at the fotographer various insults and then this: "but I'll see you later in downtown cabrona (bitch i guess)"
if you guys can help me and share this wherever you can. I mean, if something DO goes wrong at least the world will know.
Why are they wearing casual wear? Are they expected to blend in with other protesters and wreak havoc?
I don't suppose today event is getting a live coverage somewhere?
Today I sprained/twisted my foot when I was getting off the bus. Had to scurry away so I won't block other people, took time to breathe through the feeling, limped over to nearest bench, took more time getting back my bearings, and hobbled back home. But now I can only jump around if I want to move around :(
I hate it, I don't even know how bad it is, but its still swollen (like 5-6 hours have passed already, but hey at least it's not blue, yet). I hope the future doesn't have in store for me cast or crutches and it will go away on its own.
*And I cracked my phone screen for the first time ever.