Power of Lucci compared to the Shichibukai.

[KuMaJeff]

@Phenomenol:

There also was an attack Luffy performed with the Gold attached to his arm which was the Golden Rifle. This attack Ener could not read or even dodge Ener said it himself that it was "So Fast" all he could do was defend. I am saying Lucci can be faster than Ener's mantra to the speed where he can not read him.

Basically you ignore a direct quote from Ener and Luffy! stating that Blades are his weakness.

First of all who said anything about just Logia users being stronger than Ener. Mihawk is one of those monsters that Luffy has seen Shanks is another possibility. Whitebeard is definetly "the strongest" and in my mind has no Devil fruit ability. Any character without a Devil fruit is very possble of defeating Logia users with Raw Talent.

As for Logia users Crcodile is stronger than Ener! For the simple fact that Crcodile was able to defeat Luffy despite having himself covered with Water. Smoker can defeat Ener, Hell Aokiji, Doflamingo, Ace and Dragon. So far that is a pretty big list of powers that are on the seas. Ener simply would not be a high profile player in the seas.

Let's just remember that Lucci can't even touch Eneru even if he was fast enough to counter the mantra.

On the other hand, people like Whitebeard, Shanks, and Mihawk are way beyond the level of Lucci, Whitebeard is the one closest to the Pirate King. I'm not saying you can't defeat Logia with Raw Talent, but Lucci for sure can't. I also stated that people who could possibly beat Eneru that we've encountered so far are less than 10. These are the people I'm talking about.

I'm not ignoring that they said blades are his weakness. What they meant was just that blades were effective against him. They're effective against anyone. It's a weakness in that sense, but only a weakness that brings Luffy to the level of a normal human, nothing more.

[MoonDoggie]

This post is deleted!

[MoonDoggie]

Lucci vs. Crocodile:

Lucci could dodge any of Crocodile's attacks using kamie and soru.

He can use stuff like rankyaku and tekkai to block Crocodile's ranged sand attacks.

He can fly around using geppou so stuff like massive area dessication wouldn't work.

His punches could probably easily take out Crocodile.

• It's Lucci's win.

Lucci vs. Enel:

I don't think Enel's lightning strikes are instantaneous. He probably has do a little charging before releasing an attack. When Lucci senses that Enel is charging, he could immediately just soru and disappear from sight avoiding/dodging the attack. All it probably takes is maybe just a millisecond of charging for an effective dodge.

His speed would be too much for Enel's mantra.

Yeah Enel's fast, but how's his reaction time? I don't think he'd be able to react fast enough and escape a punch coming at him at the speed of soru.

His punches used in conjunction with maybe not a rubber suit but rubber gloves could easily take him out.

• It's Lucci's win.

Most of this is all just obviously speculation, btw. But it would really be cool if true. If Lucci is really that fast and that strong (wouldn't be that far off the mark IMO), then he would really make a truly worthy next level opponent for a Gear'ed up Luffy.

[k-os]

@Phenomenol:

Actually no. Luffy's idiotic attempt in using his pure instincts clearly failed him. Luffy got an idea to punch the Maxim. Luffy punched the Maxim so that his punches bounced of the Maxim so that Ener could not read the pure reflexes the punches had no consciousness so Ener could not read them. So actually he found a good way to counter Ener's Mantra.

So you say that Sharp objects are not his weakness but Luffy states otherwise.

Ener: I won't use lightning if it only numbs you…
Now that I know it doesn't work,
I have other plans.

Luffy: HMPH.
BLOWS DON'T WORK, EITHER!!!
...damn...!!
He has that thing that lets him read my movements, too?

• Page 94 -

Ener: {...what is this "rubber"...?!
...no, wait... he's still a "Paramecia"... whatever abilities he has are probably confined to his body structure.}
"GLOAM PADDLING" (Lightning Metallurgy)

Luffy: HUH?!

Nami: He's...
melting his rod into a blade...!!

• Page 95 -

Ener: THIS IS LIKE SHAPED LIGHTNING!!!

Luffy: Whoa!!

Ener: I DON'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY AROUND WITH YOU!!!
**Yahaha, so your weakness is blades!!

Luffy: Yeah.

Nami: Don't TELL him!!!**

Apparently Luffy thinks he is weak.

Quote:
Ener: Once you're out of the picture… things will be the same again... I will be invincible!!!
There will nobody left in the entire world to oppose me!!!

Luffy: The ENTIRE WORLD...?!!
Oh yes there are!! There are plenty...!!!
DOWN ON THE SEAS BELOW...
THERE ARE PLENTY OF MONSTROUS GUYS WAITING FOR YOU!!!!
YOU'RE NOTHING-

Luffy was also comparing him to other pirates on the seas. Especially with the emphesis on "Plenty". If it were not true I doubt Oda would have Luffy say that.

Considering Luffy hadn't met many strong pirates (compared to Enel) on the seas at that time, I'd say he was just talking out of his ass.

[Kibagami]

Actually you guys are all wrong. Croc lost because he was punched repeatedly through a layer of the earth's crust. Can Lucci do that?? Maaaaaaaaaaayyyybe.

I still think Lucci can beat Croc. His strength and speed is not in question and all it takes is a little intelligence to figure out Croc's weakness then BAM physical attacks deal hella damage. A lot of people think Lucci would be defeated in the first fight with Croc, and perhaps defeat Croc on the 2nd and 3rd try, but I think you people have to give more credit to the defensive powers of Rokushiki. While Lucci might not be able to hurt Croc without being wet, Croc may not be able to hit Lucci because of Soru, Kamie, and Geppou.

EDIT: Sorry for repeating what so many people said already

You know when you look at ANY Logia fruit, if someone like Lucci could spent a day thinking about a weakness, and lets assume that all Logia fruits have some sort of weakness other than the seastone, then defeating the Logia user would be 100x easier. For the record a government agent such as Lucci could get a seastone enhanced weapon to kick any Logia user. It's all a matter of surprising the enemy with speed.

OFF the record, I hope the characters in One Piece don't get any faster. Otherwise it would officially fall into the Stereotypical Shonen trap.

[k-os]

@MoonDoggie:

Lucci vs. Crocodile:

Lucci could dodge any of Crocodile's attacks using kamie and soru.

He can use stuff like rankyaku and tekkai to block Crocodile's ranged sand attacks.

He can fly around using geppou so stuff like massive area dessication wouldn't work.

His punches could probably easily take out Crocodile.

• It's Lucci's win.

Lucci vs. Enel:

I don't think Enel's lightning strikes are instantaneous. He probably has do a little charging before releasing an attack. When Lucci senses that Enel is charging, he could immediately just soru and disappear from sight avoiding/dodging the attack. All it probably takes is maybe just a millisecond of charging for an effective dodge.

His speed would be too much for Enel's mantra.

Yeah Enel's fast, but how's his reaction time? I don't think he'd be able to react fast enough and escape a punch coming at him at the speed of soru.

His punches used in conjunction with maybe not a rubber suit but rubber gloves could easily take him out.

• It's Lucci's win.

Most of this is all just obviously speculation, btw. But it would really be cool if true. If Lucci is really that fast and that strong (wouldn't be that far off the mark IMO), then he would really make a truly worthy next level opponent for a Gear'ed up Luffy.

Lol since when did Lucci use the dragonballs to make himself a Super Saiyan?

[MoonDoggie]

@k-os:

Lol since when did Lucci use the dragonballs to make himself a Super Saiyan?

Pointing out the things I wrote that you believe are beyond the realm of possibility for Lucci would have been far more helpful to the discussion, rather than just the snide remark.

[KuMaJeff]

What if Crocodile surrounds himself in a sandstorm and turns himself into a sand along with the storm. Tell me how is Lucci even going to fight against that, he can't. Same with Eneru, what about advent of lightning, that move where a whole chunk of Sky Piea was totally blown to nothing. How will Lucci survive that, want to tell me? He simply won't, he can't take them on with just pure strength and speed. The only attack where Eneru isn't instanteous enough is the advent of thunder though. His other attacks are indeed instantaneous enough. I don't know why you guys all think Lucci is like some godly character that can defeat Crocodile and Eneru just becaues Luffy hasn't defeated him yet. From what I've seen of the prior fights between Luffy and Lucci, they weren't half as hard as what happened between Luffy and Croc or Eneru. His only advantage was Rokushiki, which Luffy is slowly beginning to see through. The downfall of the CP9 is closing in.

[RichardMcJew]

@k-os:

Considering Luffy hadn't met many strong pirates (compared to Enel) on the seas at that time, I'd say he was just talking out of his ass.

Since Luffy believes Enel is weak, then by default he believes he can beat Enel easily. And really, is there any doubt that Luffy believes whole-heartedly that he can beat Enel (which, in the end he did, BTW - one-hit KO)? Therefore, by implication, the people who Luffy believes he's no match for (at least in his current state), or can at least put up a good fight with, are people he believes are stronger than Enel. Here's a list of those people:

1. Ace (he's never won a fight against Ace)
2. Smoker (he avoids fighting Smoker because he believes Smoker is too strong for him)
3. Whitebeard (he's Ace's superior, so by implication is probably stronger than Ace)
4. Mihawk (he's seen this guy in action, and obviously he's no sloucher)
5. His granddad (speculation really, but still probable)
6. Shanks
7. Most of Shanks crew
8. Probably some other people in Luffy's past we don't know about yet.

I'd say that's plenty of people he knows of that he believes are stronger than Enel. And for most of the people listed here, I'd say he's correct in his assessment.

[ShinjiG]

@RichardMcJew:

Since Luffy believes Enel is weak, then by default he believes he can beat Enel easily. And really, is there any doubt that Luffy believes whole-heartedly that he can beat Enel (which, in the end he did, BTW - one-hit KO)? Therefore, by implication, the people who Luffy believes he's no match for (at least in his current state), or can at least put up a good fight with, are people he believes are stronger than Enel. Here's a list of those people:

So being Enel was in his huge size he couldn't dodge too well, compounded with the fact that Luffy's fist his Enel first thus discharging Enel and with the added momentum of the gold on his fist along with his strength and added torque from the spinning fist.

It was hardly as simple as Luffy just hitting him once. He hit Enel tons of times, it wasn't until he was crushed between the Bell and Luffy's fist with the gold behind it did he lose. And even then, he could have gone on, or did you forget that he was still conscious after that hit?

1. Ace he's never won a fight against Ace)

How will Ace win? Oh wait his fire, a side affect of heat from lightning which Enel dealt with just fine.

2. Smoker (he avoids fighting Smoker because he believes Smoker is too strong for him)

More likely that he hasn't been presented with a situation that required him to beat him. If smoker and Enel been switched then Luffy would find a way to win, cause yanno he's the hero.

3. Whitebeard (he's Ace's superior, so by implication is probably stronger than Ace)

If you assume that Ace could defeat Enel then it'd be a valid assumption, if not then that creates doubt on whether he could defeat Enel.

4. Mihawk (he's seen this guy in action, and obviously he's no sloucher)

At what point does a swordsman stand a chance against Enel, especially if they're holding several conductors?

5. His granddad (speculation really, but still probable)

Not really

6. Shanks

so now a one armed man who gained Luffy's admiration at a young age is now on par with Enel?

7. Most of Shanks crew

see above

8. Probably some other people in Luffy's past we don't know about yet.

So lets get this straight, you named 8 people of whom none have any conclusive proof that they could beat Enel, most of which we've never even seen.

BS

I'd say that's plenty of people he knows of that he believes are stronger than Enel. And for most of the people listed here, I'd say he's correct in his assessment.

Admiration of pirates is hardly an indication of whether they could defeat Enel or not.

[guyleon]

Luffy only thought that his Gomu Gomu skills won't effect Smoker. He also has no reason to fight Smoker whom in his view is a good Marine guy who let them escape in Alabasta.

[LightningAce]

@RichardMcJew:

Since Luffy believes Enel is weak, then by default he believes he can beat Enel easily. And really, is there any doubt that Luffy believes whole-heartedly that he can beat Enel (which, in the end he did, BTW - one-hit KO)? Therefore, by implication, the people who Luffy believes he's no match for (at least in his current state), or can at least put up a good fight with, are people he believes are stronger than Enel. Here's a list of those people:

1. Ace (he's never won a fight against Ace)
2. Smoker (he avoids fighting Smoker because he believes Smoker is too strong for him)
3. Whitebeard (he's Ace's superior, so by implication is probably stronger than Ace)
4. Mihawk (he's seen this guy in action, and obviously he's no sloucher)
5. His granddad (speculation really, but still probable)
6. Shanks
7. Most of Shanks crew
8. Probably some other people in Luffy's past we don't know about yet.

I'd say that's plenty of people he knows of that he believes are stronger than Enel. And for most of the people listed here, I'd say he's correct in his assessment.

Just because Luffy believes something, doesn't make it true.
I find it hard to believe that many of the people you Listed could beat Enel, except Whitebeard because of his title. Shanks i can't see doing much to Enel. I mean what can a sword do to someone made of Lightning? Same goes for Fire, as Enel demonstrated with Wiper and his burn bazooka. Mihawk, maybe he has some chance since he is the best swordsman in th world and we don't know fully what he is capable of doing. Smoke can't do much to Lightning either.
As far as Enel's power's go, his Logia abilities are far superior to everyone else's that have been shown. Well it was called Invincible by some.
Only people i can see beating Enel frrom what i've seen at the moment is, Admiral Koji and Whitebeard.

[RichardMcJew]

@ShinjiG:

How will Ace win? Oh wait his fire, a side affect of heat from lightning which Enel dealt with just fine.

More likely that he hasn't been presented with a situation that required him to beat him. If smoker and Enel been switched then Luffy would find a way to win, cause yanno he's the hero.

If you assume that Ace could defeat Enel then it'd be a valid assumption, if not then that creates doubt on whether he could defeat Enel.

At what point does a swordsman stand a chance against Enel, especially if they're holding several conductors?

Not really

so now a one armed man who gained Luffy's admiration at a young age is now on par with Enel?

see above

So lets get this straight, you named 8 people of whom none have any conclusive proof that they could beat Enel, most of which we've never even seen.

BS

Admiration of pirates is hardly an indication of whether they could defeat Enel or not.

I see I've opened up a can of worms. Since we really don't know of any of these characters' true abilities, we'd be venturing into wild speculation territory here - stuff like Mihawk being able to cut even the elements, or Fire Ace being able to heat things up into super hot plasma, and using that to simply "eat" Enel's electricity (remember, the key word is pseudo-science - I know plasma creation is a much more complicated process than just heating things up, like in a certain Spiderman movie) - in other words, truly wild speculation. So to keep this thread from descending even further into hell, I'll just leave it at that.

But I will say this. The guys listed are sort of like end level bosses. If none of them can beat Enel (who in game terms would be like a low to mid-level boss), then I'd be truly disappointed, as that would make Enel truly the strongest person in One Piece. And if Luffy has already beaten the strongest person in One Piece, then all the fights Luffy has had after his fight with Enel, and all the fights he will have in the future, will all seem like mere formalities, rather than Luffy truly evolving and growing in strength in order so that he can truly earn the title Pirate King.

And I do believe Oda wants to convey Luffy's evolution into the Pirate King. So if for some reason Oda ever sees the need to face off Enel with one of the later level "bosses," (by bosses I mean villains powerful enough to cause an evolution in Luffy's strength after having fought with them - i.e. not minor villains like Walpol or Foxy) I think he'd probably invent some ability that could be used to easily take out Enel. Otherwise, if Enel beats that "boss," only to be beaten by Luffy later on, then any sort of growth Oda might try to convey in Luffy (in terms of his road towards becoming the Pirate King) after the fight would be irreparably cheapened.

Anyways, to end this post I'd just like reiterate the point I made in my previous post as there seems to be some confusion over the matter. Since Luffy truly believes Enel is weak, and Luffy knows some people who he doesn't believe are weak (people that he believes are at least as strong if not stronger than himself), then from his perspective, those people are stronger than Enel. So from his perspective, he wasn't talking out of his ass (as one person put it) when he says he knows of plenty of people in the blue seas who are stronger than Enel. That's what I meant.

[Chubbychez]

@Lighting-Ace:

Just because Luffy believes something, doesn't make it true.
I find it hard to believe that many of the people you Listed could beat Enel, except Whitebeard because of his title. Shanks i can't see doing much to Enel. I mean what can a sword do to someone made of Lightning? Same goes for Fire, as Enel demonstrated with Wiper and his burn bazooka. Mihawk, maybe he has some chance since he is the best swordsman in th world and we don't know fully what he is capable of doing. Smoke can't do much to Lightning either.
As far as Enel's power's go, his Logia abilities are far superior to everyone else's that have been shown. Well it was called Invincible by some.
Only people i can see beating Enel frrom what i've seen at the moment is, Admiral Koji and Whitebeard.

Smoker always uses a seastone sword in battle so he's got that going for him.

If you say Mihawk has a chance against Enel, then wouldn't that same chance apply to Shanks? Shanks is probably on the same level as Mihawk when it comes to swordsplay.

You've seen next to none of Whitebeard's abilities, so how can you say he can beat Enel, but disregard the others?

Ummm… I don't know about the others.

[k-os]

@ShinjiG:

So being Enel was in his huge size he couldn't dodge too well, compounded with the fact that Luffy's fist his Enel first thus discharging Enel and with the added momentum of the gold on his fist along with his strength and added torque from the spinning fist.

It was hardly as simple as Luffy just hitting him once. He hit Enel tons of times, it wasn't until he was crushed between the Bell and Luffy's fist with the gold behind it did he lose. And even then, he could have gone on, or did you forget that he was still conscious after that hit?

How will Ace win? Oh wait his fire, a side affect of heat from lightning which Enel dealt with just fine.

More likely that he hasn't been presented with a situation that required him to beat him. If smoker and Enel been switched then Luffy would find a way to win, cause yanno he's the hero.

If you assume that Ace could defeat Enel then it'd be a valid assumption, if not then that creates doubt on whether he could defeat Enel.

At what point does a swordsman stand a chance against Enel, especially if they're holding several conductors?

Not really

so now a one armed man who gained Luffy's admiration at a young age is now on par with Enel?

see above

So lets get this straight, you named 8 people of whom none have any conclusive proof that they could beat Enel, most of which we've never even seen.

BS

Admiration of pirates is hardly an indication of whether they could defeat Enel or not.

Took the words out of my mouth. Every logia fruit user Luffy has ran up against, he won with LUCK. Croc, Luffy should have died fight 1 and 2. Since luffy won't fight 3, we'll just call it Croc 2 - Luffy 1. So it took 3 tries to defeat croc. How many will Lucci take?

Against enel, Luffy happened to be immune to his greatest attacks. If not for the rubber (luck again you can say), he'd be finished.

Against Aokiji, we saw what happened.

Against smoker, Luffy ran.

Against Ace (pre-devil fruit) he lost and after devil fruit, we can safely say he will lose again.

[LightningAce]

@Chubbychez:

Smoker always uses a seastone sword in battle so he's got that going for him.

If you say Mihawk has a chance against Enel, then wouldn't that same chance apply to Shanks? Shanks is probably on the same level as Mihawk when it comes to swordsplay.

You've seen next to none of Whitebeard's abilities, so how can you say he can beat Enel, but disregard the others?

Ummm… I don't know about the others.

Mihawk is known as the Best swordsman in the world, Not Shanks.

Well, Whitebeard for one is known as the strongest Man in the world, if we are to assume that he equalled Roger in power and Roger being the strongest character in the OP world. What does tht tell us?

[theinvisibleworm]

Eneru could probably "predict" Lucci's attacks, but the thing is, this would be useless.

Lucci's so fast that being able to predict him doesn't equal being able to block him.

Also, Luffy's final fight with Crocodile (the one where he won), he beat Crocodile from sheer force of will and fighting ability, not luck. Surviving up that point from the other fights was luck, but the part where crocodile got serious wasn't, Luff flatly outmatched him and punched him through layers and layers of bedrock, putting croc out cold. Luck would have been a coincidental river pouring into the cave they were in and then the king saving Luffy and Robin while Crocodile drowned or some crap.

I just love this mentality that "they are logia so they own everyone except shanks, whitebeard and mihawk."

If you can say that Crocodile would own Lucci because 'being able to hit crocodile' doesn't matter (despite Lucci being probably 10 or more times stronger than normal Luffy, and at least 10x faster), then I guess I can say that the same applies to shanks and Mihawk and Whitebeard. After all, Crocodile can just dry them out right?

[LightningAce]

@theinvisibleworm:

Eneru could probably "predict" Lucci's attacks, but the thing is, this would be useless.

Lucci's so fast that being able to predict him doesn't equal being able to block him.

Yes, however what could Lucci's attacks do to Enel? After allm if he relies on just using Physical power to attack Enel-it won't do much will it?
Then again- we have not really seen a Zoan vs a Logia yet so we can't really say for sure what'd happen.

[theinvisibleworm]

I was specifically responding to the people saying that his mantra means he could beat Lucci up by predicting his moves. But if you want, you can just imagine he's wearing a rubber suit or some crap.

If you look earlier, I'm actually one of the people that think Lucci would lose to Enel (because the guy is made of lightning), I just think he'd kick the crap out of Crocodile.

[JudasChrist]

I think the whole thread is startin to go downhill. too much pointless and stupid speculations in some posts which serve no purpose other than fanboy-ism ("Crocodile can dehydrate anything", "eneru is invincible", "Lucci is the man!")
Anyway.
I'll say it again: Maybe we need to see Lucci on full power first, and THEN speculate about how he would fight with Croc etch etch. Oda is a genius: I wouldn't be surprised if at the end, he would give Lucci some kinda mystic-rokushiki art that can harm logias or whatever. It's kinda stupid going into all this fuss judgin by what we've seen so far by him. I mean, at first Kaku was like, a really speedy rainkyakou-lovin wooden nose dude, and now he's got all this power from the giraffe fruit. Hell, even Fukuro had some aces up his sleeve. I'm pretty sure that in the end of this arc, some guys around here will be like "Oh shit…........Lucci!!!!! He's so tough afterall!!!!!" and stuff.

Btw, I still refuse to choose a side. The good thing with OP is that you can actually love the characters for their personallity besides their powers (like DBZ). While Lucci is the PHYSICALLY strongest enemy that Luffy has yet fought and he's like a feline serial killer (which means, cool) NOBODY can beat Crocodile's majestic, pimp character. Hehe. The reason I dislike Eneru is that by all means, he's just a little baby depended on the fuckin ENORMOUS amounts of power his fruit gives him. Hands down.

[RichardMcJew]

This post is deleted!

[RichardMcJew]

@k-os:

Took the words out of my mouth. Every logia fruit user Luffy has ran up against, he won with LUCK. Croc, Luffy should have died fight 1 and 2. Since luffy won't fight 3, we'll just call it Croc 2 - Luffy 1. So it took 3 tries to defeat croc. How many will Lucci take?

Against enel, Luffy happened to be immune to his greatest attacks. If not for the rubber (luck again you can say), he'd be finished.

Against Aokiji, we saw what happened.

Against smoker, Luffy ran.

Against Ace (pre-devil fruit) he lost and after devil fruit, we can safely say he will lose again.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people won't be convinced of Luffy's power until a planet blows up or something - that's to say Luffy goes DBZ on us.

Anyways, yes, Luffy wins his fights through luck. There's no growth no evolution. Luffy is the same idiot he has always been since we first met him, winning his fights solely through dumb luck. And things like talent, skill/strength, determination, hard work, those things don't matter at all since luck is king. If Luffy should ever achieve his dream of becoming the pirate king, then it was just simply through dumb luck. So the lesson here folks - never dream, or never aim for your dream. Since it's purely by chance that someone achieves a dream, rather than through hard work, skill and determination, dreams are simply for suckers. There are just some things in the world that can never be overcome on one's road towards a dream except through just blind dumb luck - so again, you're an idiot for even trying. The world of One Piece is truly a cynical world.

[incinerator]

I think pretty much all argument over Lucci's battle abilities right now is moot. We haven't seen Lucci in a real fight yet. Only when the battle with Luffy is over and the dust clears will we really know what Lucci is capable of. Until then, it's hard to draw comparisons to Crocodile's strength. We'll know by looking at Lucci's technique, how much he thrashes Luffy, and what big guns Luffy will have to pull out to defeat him.

[onemoment]

@Chubbychez:

Smoker always uses a seastone sword in battle so he's got that going for him.

If you say Mihawk has a chance against Enel, then wouldn't that same chance apply to Shanks? Shanks is probably on the same level as Mihawk when it comes to swordsplay.

You've seen next to none of Whitebeard's abilities, so how can you say he can beat Enel, but disregard the others?

Ummm… I don't know about the others.

When has Shanks ever used a sword? I don't get why people keep saying this. I saw someone with a sig of shanks with a swords facing mihawk, but that must have been some special or movie I haven't seen, therefore filler.

[k-os]

@RichardMcJew:

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people won't be convinced of Luffy's power until a planet blows up or something - that's to say Luffy goes DBZ on us.

Anyways, yes, Luffy wins his fights through luck. There's no growth no evolution. Luffy is the same idiot he has always been since we first met him, winning his fights solely through dumb luck. And things like talent, skill/strength, determination, hard work, those things don't matter at all since luck is king. If Luffy should ever achieve his dream of becoming the pirate king, then it was just simply through dumb luck. So the lesson here folks - never dream, or never aim for your dream. Since it's purely by chance that someone achieves a dream, rather than through hard work, skill and determination, dreams are simply for suckers. There are just some things in the world that can never be overcome on one's road towards a dream except through just blind dumb luck - so again, you're an idiot for even trying. The world of One Piece is truly a cynical world.

No clue why you have this feeling that everyone expects Luffy to be DBZish and blow up planets. Nobody is saying that Luffy hasn't grown. Just stating out that with those people listed above, Luffy won by "LUCK." Period. With croc, even having a 3rd try, people are saying that Luffy won by skill? How many people are left for dead twice? Tell me what skill of his allowed this? What type of mind control did he put on robin to come help him out the first time?

Again , against Enel, Luffy was LUCKY (again) to be made entirely out of rubber. How can anyone argue against this. Everyone else was shocked into onconsciousness on the spot. Even Zorro who people think is right up there in strength with Luffy.

But against Bellamy for instance, Luffy used his own power. Power he didn't have in issue #1.

When Luffy does beat Aokiji (if that happens), I hope it won't be after a zillion near-death experiences. Hope Oda comes up with a perfectly sound reason as to why a non-logia fruit user defeated someone like the ice man.

[Shishou]

Base Luffy Enies Lobby > Base Luffy Alabasta (by a big margin, I would say)

Base Luffy roughly around as strong as Blueno is. He used Gear 2, but I don't think he HAD to use it to win.

Lucci is more than FOUR times as powerful as Blueno. And his power can only be increased in his Zoan form, that makes all his strengths and speeds increase.

I really don't see how Crocodile > Lucci when Luffy beat Crocodile in the end. Not luck, like Crocodile killed over and died from a disease. But persistance, and finally kicking his ass. And Luffy is now much stronger, and will undoubtfully barely beat Lucci. With Gears and all.

You can counter ANY battle with what ifs to your advantage. "Oh Crocodile can do this and this." But you never think of what the opponent much stronger than Luffy is, could do to counter. And I believe once you all see Lucci vs. Luffy and it concludes, you won't be thinking Lucci is a weaker villian than Crocodile.

[theinvisibleworm]

@k-os:

No clue why you have this feeling that everyone expects Luffy to be DBZish and blow up planets. Nobody is saying that Luffy hasn't grown. Just stating out that with those people listed above, Luffy won by "LUCK." Period. With croc, even having a 3rd try, people are saying that Luffy won by skill? How many people are left for dead twice? Tell me what skill of his allowed this? What type of mind control did he put on robin to come help him out the first time?

Again , against Enel, Luffy was LUCKY (again) to be made entirely out of rubber. How can anyone argue against this. Everyone else was shocked into onconsciousness on the spot. Even Zorro who people think is right up there in strength with Luffy.

But against Bellamy for instance, Luffy used his own power. Power he didn't have in issue #1.

When Luffy does beat Aokiji (if that happens), I hope it won't be after a zillion near-death experiences. Hope Oda comes up with a perfectly sound reason as to why a non-logia fruit user defeated someone like the ice man.

He survived the first two fights by luck and outside forces. He won the last fight with skill and determination, though.

Sure you can say "he was lucky to be able to do the third fight." But that doesn't take away from the fact that he WON the third fight with skill and determination and his own strength.

[incinerator]

I really hate how people are trying to discredit Luffy by saying he only wins by luck. You can have all the luck in the world, but still lose to someone. I'd like to see you guys try to take on Crocodile (if he were real that is) if you had a ton of luck. Do you see my point? It is that even with all the luck in the world, Luffy still needs the passion and the power to achieve his goals. Luck keeps him alive, but his own strength allows him to win.

[k-os]

@theinvisibleworm:

He survived the first two fights by luck and outside forces. He won the last fight with skill and determination, though.

Sure you can say "he was lucky to be able to do the third fight." But that doesn't take away from the fact that he WON the third fight with skill and determination and his own strength.

No it doesn't take away but people are making it seem like Luffy easily whupped up on Croc. That wasn't the case. He had to go through 2 lucky streaks to finally get to the point where he was able to defeat him. So people who keep saying that since Luffy beat Croc and Lucci impaled Luffy then Lucci automatically beats Croc. Or since Croc came before Lucci, he has to be the weaker automatically. Just doesn't make sense. Then people start pulling out stuff that hasn't even happened yet. We don't know how powerful Mihawk really is. We don't know what abilities shanks has. We can only go by what's in the manga. Thus going by the manga alone (NO SPECULATION), nobody 'cept Luffy could beat Enel. Not many people will have the chance to defeat Croc.

[k-os]

@incinerator:

I really hate how people are trying to discredit Luffy by saying he only wins by luck. You can have all the luck in the world, but still lose to someone. I'd like to see you guys try to take on Crocodile (if he were real that is) if you had a ton of luck. Do you see my point? It is that even with all the luck in the world, Luffy still needs the passion and the power to achieve his goals. Luck keeps him alive, but his own strength allows him to win.

Nobody is trying to discredit Luffy. Please read fully next time. I just said that against Croc, Enel and Aokiji, he got by on Luck. We've already proved that Luffy could be dead 10 times over if he wasn't even the main character against those guys. He won't by skill against other foes but you can't honestly say he won by determination. This is why he needs to get stronger. These guys whip his ass good and now he realizes that he needs to actually "do" something to improve himself so he can take these guys on. This is where "gears" come into play.

[Phenomenol]

Considering Luffy hadn't met many strong pirates (compared to Enel) on the seas at that time, I'd say he was just talking out of his ass.

How so? Luffy has met many powerful people on the seas and seen them in action or either fought them. Mihawk, Shanks, Ace, Smoker, Crcodile, and Dragon. These Men alone could smash Ener. Now considering the fact that he ran into Aokiji this makes Luffy's words even more Credible.

[mazinkaiser]

It is highly possible for Lucci to own Crocodile, Lucci has greater physical strength to defeat him. However, as stated by others, Lucci still needs to find out about Croc's weakness.

We know very little about the rest of the Shicibukai, so I can't really judge how Lucci would fare against the rest.

[Paulie]

@KuMaJeff:

What if Crocodile surrounds himself in a sandstorm and turns himself into a sand along with the storm. Tell me how is Lucci even going to fight against that, he can't. Same with Eneru, what about advent of lightning, that move where a whole chunk of Sky Piea was totally blown to nothing. How will Lucci survive that, want to tell me?

How would Luffy?

[Mugiwara_no_Ice]

@Paulie:

How would Luffy?

By being Luffy! (rubber)

[chpollastrini]

Other Shichibukai > Lucci > Crocodile…..simple as the fact that in any shonen manga or animes...the hero fights to improve...always..(i'm talking about main villains.....i'll not count the enconter with Mihawk, or Bellamy in here ok?? they're both only to build up characters......but i guess Luffy and the crew will fight the entire Shichibukai sometime, so...they're stronger than Lucci)...that's my opinion...

[k-os]

@chpollastrini:

Other Shichibukai > Lucci > Crocodile…..simple as the fact that in any shonen manga or animes...the hero fights to improve...always..(i'm talking about main villains.....i'll not count the enconter with Mihawk, or Bellamy in here ok?? they're both only to build up characters......but i guess Luffy and the crew will fight the entire Shichibukai sometime, so...they're stronger than Lucci)...that's my opinion...

May as well not include the other minor characters too. THis may be a shonen manga but it's written by Oda and I don't think he sticks strictly to the enemy #1 < enemy #2 < enemy #3 theme. What we get is enemy #1 requires one method of beating him, enemy #2 requires a totally different method to beat, enemy #3 requires something else different and so on. Not necessarily power but strategy.

[Malintex_Terek]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

By being Luffy! (rubber)

Only Aokiji could survive the Advent of Thunder.

[COWMAKAZE]

These have all been very good points, and I'm going to submit that Lucci is probably the strongest of all of Luffy's foes to date. Otherwise, what would be the point? Everyone needs to grow, and if Luffy fought easier enemies and then harder and then easier, there wouldn't be too much growth. It just wouldn't make any sense if each enemy weren't harder to beat than the last - the farther you get on the Grand Line, the less newbie pirates there are and so on.

However, this does not always stand. Foxy is still my biggest example - remember how much trouble Luffy had with him? He even admitted that he was weak, but it was how he fought that made him strong. Cheating! The point is, if Foxy can give Luffy trouble by cheating, that doesn't necessarily mean he could beat anyone else - from Crocodile, Enel, Aokiji, etc. to Usopp, Zoro, Sanji, etc., and down even further than that to Morgan or Kuro. There is no guarantee. However, to say that Luffy has not gotten any better is foolhardy - of course he's gotten better. However, if he and Croc had a rematch, I'm sure there would be trouble because Croc's smart like that.

The point I'm trying to make is it's like real-world fighting - true, in the real world having a pistol is better than boxing gloves, but if you don't know how to shoot, it's pretty useless. And a fast enough boxer could still kick your ass. So it's a mix of styles and strength, just like the real world.

[chpollastrini]

@k-os:

May as well not include the other minor characters too. THis may be a shonen manga but it's written by Oda and I don't think he sticks strictly to the enemy #1 < enemy #2 < enemy #3 theme. What we get is enemy #1 requires one method of beating him, enemy #2 requires a totally different method to beat, enemy #3 requires something else different and so on. Not necessarily power but strategy.

Ok, let me just explain my thoughts…..Oda is the MAN, i'll never discuss this, this guy can do anything...my point is, i really doubt we will see a new major enemy that Luffy can beat without Gear 2 at least, just because everyome would say "Luffy owned him...he didn't even use Gear 2".....

The only thing Oda has in his hands and no other mangaka has...is the inumerous possibilities for devil fruits, becausa Enel, with his devil fruit, is a lot stronger than Lucci, and that alone could prove me wrong...

But let me put in this way... Closer to end = Harder enemies....that's all

[Walker]

@COWMAKAZE:

The point I'm trying to make is it's like real-world fighting - true, in the real world having a pistol is better than boxing gloves, but if you don't know how to shoot, it's pretty useless. And a fast enough boxer could still kick your ass. So it's a mix of styles and strength, just like the real world.

A boxer beating someone with a pistol would be like 1/500…

[KuMaJeff]

Mihawk is known as the Best swordsman in the world, Not Shanks.

Rivalry between Shanks and Mihawk was clearly shown that time where Mihawk went to visit Shanks about Luffy's bounty. They are clearly on par with eachother, if not in sword skills, at least in strength overall. That leads on to wonder, how strong would Shanks be if he had not lost that arm of his.

But let me put in this way… Closer to end = Harder enemies....that's all

Closer to end = Harder enemies in relation to Luffy.

This does not prove whether or not Lucci can beat Eneru whatsoever, let alone Crocodile. It is possible that Lucci might beat Crocodile, but his chances against Eneru are slim to none. Even if he gets a rubber suit, it'd have to cover EVERY part of his body, as any opening means he gets electrocuted. So how will he see through the coating of rubber? Transparent rubber? I don't think so. How can he even breath? He doesn't, he'll die before he even meets Eneru. You can argue that he'll get an oxygen tank, how long will that tank have to last. The entire battle. If it runs out he dies, and another thing is an oxygen tank will impede your movements. Lucci against Eneru doesn't even needed to be discussed. As shown by Eneru he easily K.Oed 5 of the strongest warriors in the Sky Piea Arc with minimal effort. If this isn't enough to prove that Eneru > Lucci, I don't know what is. Lucci isn't made of rubber, Luffy is. Luffy can beat Eneru, Lucci can't.

The point I'm trying to make is it's like real-world fighting - true, in the real world having a pistol is better than boxing gloves, but if you don't know how to shoot, it's pretty useless. And a fast enough boxer could still kick your ass. So it's a mix of styles and strength, just like the real world.

I totally agree.

In the end it's all about rock, paper, scissors. Just because rock > scissors, and scissors > paper, does NOT mean rock > paper. In fact it's the other way around. Which basically restates what i said earlier.
Closer to end = Harder enemies in relation to Luffy. These harder enemies are not neccessarily stronger when directly compared to previous enemies, just harder for Luffy to defeat.

[Paulie]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

By being Luffy! (rubber)

My point is, KuMaJeff gave insane examples of how Crocodile or Enel could beat Lucci. But if they did the same to Luffy, he would have died as well. Doesn't prove anything.

[Phenomenol]

As shown by Eneru he easily K.Oed 5 of the strongest warriors in the Sky Piea Arc with minimal effort.

I ask you who the hell was strong in Skypiea Wiper? Please that man was a joke. If Wiper was on the seas he would be Chicken Feed. Skypiea was a very weak island with no one to oppose Ener that is why Ener looked so dominant. Please you guys are fooled by illusions.

If this isn't enough to prove that Eneru > Lucci, I don't know what is. Lucci isn't made of rubber, Luffy is. Luffy can beat Eneru, Lucci can't.

First of all this is highly false. Also how do you know if Ener can keep up with Lucci's speed? This is speculation.

[SalehMo]

@Phenomenol:

First of all this is highly false. Also how do you know if Ener can keep up with Lucci's speed? This is speculation.

Enel has a very Good Mantra in which he can detect a person's movement, Maybe even for Lucci. A better question is If Lucci can stand his Thunder Power if Enel grabs hold of him

[Paulie]

@SalehMo:

Enel has a very Good Mantra in which he can detect a person's movement, Maybe even for Lucci. A better question is If Lucci can stand his Thunder Power if Enel grabs hold of him

Luffy's last attack was too fast to react to, even with Mantra.

What's to keep Lucci from being beyond that speed?

[Robin Stjernberg]

Why even bother arguing who would win between Croc and Luchi?!
The only thing we can for sure know is that Luchi is pshysical stronger, that is the whole point why Luffy must build up his strenght/speed/and so on with Gear.
He had to find a weakness to beat Croc, I doubt he must do that with Luchi, if he must, like with Croc, the fight will most likely be lame. Why find a weakness for a foe with no real super cheaty powers?

[Phenomenol]

Enel has a very Good Mantra in which he can detect a person's movement, Maybe even for Lucci. A better question is If Lucci can stand his Thunder Power if Enel grabs hold of him

Thankyou Paulie!! you pretty much said it. Luffy was too fast for ener. This was coming from Ener's own mouth as well.

[KuMaJeff]

@Phenomenol:

Thankyou Paulie!! you pretty much said it. Luffy was too fast for ener. This was coming from Ener's own mouth as well.

Regardless of whether or not Luffy was too fast, the point here is Lucci can't even touch Eneru's body as it is not materialized. Yes he could get rubber gloves, he'd be electrocuted if Eneru just blasts a radius of electricity around himself, which he is definately capable of. And you also said earlier that there were no strong people on Sky Piea. Zoro, Robin, Sanji, are they all weak? Not at all, Robin has a 81 million bounty for a reasion, and Zoro had a 60 million one at that time too. I don't get why you think they are weak, you are underestimating the Strawhats here. That native indian guy with that bazooka(I can't recall his name) was nowhere close to being weak either. He was pretty much holding his own with Luffy in that fight before Luffy got eaten by the snake. They were quite equal in power. I don't get why you think the people during the Sky Piea Arc are weak.

Eneru > Lucci for sure. Whether or not Crocodile is stronger than Lucci, that is indeterminable, so no point arguing, but Lucci doesn't have a 100% chance to beat Crocodile as some of you say he does.

[Kibagami]

@Phenomenol:

I ask you who the hell was strong in Skypiea Wiper? Please that man was a joke. If Wiper was on the seas he would be Chicken Feed.

Dude you're going too far to say that Wiper is weak. The guy may not have many effective attacks (save Reject), but he's still one tough motherfucker. He can take A LOT of shit, and he's not exactly in need of a weight lifting trainer.

Back on Topic

I don't really understand how people can think that a simple rubber suit could enable Lucci to beat Eneru. I sympathise with those who disregard realistic thinking in the OP world, but do you honestly think that a thin little rubber suit could match n,000,000 volts of electricity? I would think a sea stone baton is a bit more effective but a rubber suit is a thin layer of insulation that can be easily pierced or cut or damaged or breached in an infinite number of ways. Let assume for Luffy's sake that 20,000,000 volts cannot burn through a 1cm layer of rubber (already abnormally thick). Eneru doesn't move like a physical being, he can just POP up in a jolt of electricity; that power combined with mantra makes him a master at surprising his enemy. One breach in the rubber suit and Lucci is done. There is simply no way to avoid being hit by MASSIVE thunder attacks. Lucci is still flesh and blood, but Luffy is all rubber - THAT is the difference.

Without the use of a weaponized sea stone , I honestly don't think anyone execpt Luffy can defeat Eneru. (well maybe Rock fruit user ~_~)

[NagaKarat]

Nami manage to deflect Enel's lightning with one of her electric bubbles(?). But she knows that Enel's knows she's just wasting her time, because when Enel's used a bigger voltage. Nami's going to be fried. it's the same for a rubber suit, effective only up to an extent. Luffy survives because as he likes to say, "boku wa gomu ningen da";)

Just stating out that with those people listed above, Luffy won by "LUCK." Period.

Luck is a skill that few have and many wish they had. And one of Luffy's strength is that he is extremely lucky. You might say he has been touch by destiny/fate? And that until he has done whatever it is (Kaizoku Ou?), He is going to be Lucky, if there is one in millionth chance for him to survive, he'll survive. Especially as his luck is Oda ;)