After bumping an ancient topic for a stupid reason and GoAnderson giving me subtle permission to do this. I've decided to start a NEW discussion topic on the English manga. So, from hereforth, all discussion of Viz manga or Viz related products will go here.
First Topic is about the status of the manga
Tanko Status: Volume 9
Shonen Jump Status: Volume 11
Sales: Poor
Fans: Not pleased.
Chances One Piece will get "Grand Line" subtitle: Likely.
After bumping an ancient topic for a stupid reason and GoAnderson giving me subtle permission to do this. I've decided to start a NEW discussion topic on the English manga. So, from hereforth, all discussion of Viz manga or Viz related products will go here.
First Topic is about the status of the manga
Tanko Status: Volume 9
Shonen Jump Status: Volume 11
Sales: Poor
Fans: Not pleased.
Chances One Piece will get "Grand Line" subtitle: Likely.
If it gets subtitled into a faster, less edited graphic-novel only release, i will live
Sales: Poor
Fans: Not pleased.
We're not really the target audience for OP, as we're the "educated" crowd and know to use the 'net or buy Japanese tankos. As such, Viz is trying to appeal to children, younger teens, and a general audience; not much more than that. My guess is that sales are "OK" but not "record breaking" like Naruto, and if sales are good, it's likely the buying market is satisfied.
Chances One Piece will get "Grand Line" subtitle: Likely.
4Kids didn't do it, and since they've done that for YGO and Pokemon but not OP, I think it's safe to say Viz won't, either. The DBZ manga difference was to allow a differentiable anime be available to the largest possible demographic (everyone) as a cash cow.
Well, I'll buy the Viz manga either way (edits or not). I like to sit down and read something, rather than stare at a screen. Although, I do ohso much love the original manga's crisp uncut feeling.
Hopefully, we will get One Piece moved into a monthly status for at least the year. If sales do not increase, then they can always stick it back in the magazine. At least they would of given it a chance to blossom, then.
I'm still going to buy a Viz manga anyway.
What really needs to happen is somebody worth mentioning need to buy the OP anime frnachise in the states, redub it good, unedit it, and make it popular. Then we'll see the edits magically disappear in OP Viz manga…
i will still buy it too, unless viz gets totally out of hand with editing the manga.
I agree with what myogatheflea, joekido the Second, Voodzik and Khoga said. While I do find some of their edits annoying, at times it seems they actually translate the manga rather than followin 4Kids. For example Fishman is a possible translation (least according to a few sites I've visted) and they use French names for Sanji's attacks rather than what 4Kids do. Generally I'm happy with it and I'm willing to support it.
Yes I would like it if One Piece was more true to the original at times and with some of the pointless changes 4Kids made, part of me is fearful Viz may choose to follow them. I would also like it to do better in the US. Naruto and Bleach are good series but by no means perfect. I rate OP higher and find it a shame others don't feel the same. I'm sure more people would agree with me if they took the time to read it but they have probably been put off by the dub (I know a number of people who have been). A shame really.
But frankly so long as the manga is about 60 - 75% accurate (which at the moment I believe it is), then I'm happy.
Well, I'll buy the Viz manga either way (edits or not). I like to sit down and read something, rather than stare at a screen.
Same here. It's a better way to read.
I agree with you two, Beans Dooma and guy I'm too lazy to scroll up to check his name.
Of course, this is a little academic since as I slowly learn Japanese, I become able to just get the Japanese tankos and keep Viz around for refference…but in the interim, go Viz.
Riding a Rhino is safer so we Ride a Hippo for Adventure!
~Bobobobo BO-bobo~
PS: I am a big fan of kittens:love:
I agree with you two, Beans Dooma and guy I'm too lazy to scroll up to check his name.
That would be me.
Of course, this is a little academic since as I slowly learn Japanese, I become able to just get the Japanese tankos and keep Viz around for refference…but in the interim, go Viz.
I'm considering doing the same, especally if there's a chance I'll be in my 30's before Viz gets near chapter 400 or if Viz chooses to axe the series (which I hope won't happen).
Sales: Poor
Where are you getting your stats from exactly?
The only thing I can ever find are the numbers released by Diamond Publishing and that's only the direct market, which accounts for about fifteen to twenty percent of comics sales in this country.
Again, from what I hear, One Piece enjoys moderate popularity. It would be odd if the minor success it's had on Cartoon Network does not positively affect the manga sales as well.
Fans: Not pleased.
All things considered, I'm quite content with the Viz translation. They could improve a few things, but it's not like they're horrifically butchering it 4Kids style.
Chances One Piece will get "Grand Line" subtitle: Likely.
Based on what exactly?
Only one series has done that so far and remained in Shonen Jump, Yu-Gi-Oh, which has went down in popularity in recent years. They also skipped sections that had been in repeats on television for years. The only two series to leave ASJ so far are Sand Land, which finished its run, and Dragon Ball Z, which was another series of declining popularity and that was off television at the time with little hint that it would return anytime soon. Had DBZ stayed on television, it would probably still be in ASJ, especially if it had remained anywhere near as ridiculously popular as it was during the Cell Saga, when it was the highest rated daily show on cable.
Right now, they have two series that are currently hits on Toonami, Naruto (which is a smash hit) and One Piece (for whatever reason). Why on God's green Earth would Viz skip ahead in either one of those?
Have they announced plans to that end?
Complicating things since 2009.
Where are you getting your stats from exactly?
The only thing I can ever find are the numbers released by Diamond Publishing and that's only the direct market, which accounts for about fifteen to twenty percent of comics sales in this country.
Again, from what I hear, One Piece enjoys moderate popularity. It would be odd if the minor success it's had on Cartoon Network does not positively affect the manga sales as well.
All things considered, I'm quite content with the Viz translation. They could improve a few things, but it's not like they're horrifically butchering it 4Kids style.
Based on what exactly?
Only one series has done that so far and remained in Shonen Jump, Yu-Gi-Oh, which has went down in popularity in recent years. They also skipped sections that had been in repeats on television for years. The only two series to leave ASJ so far are Sand Land, which finished its run, and Dragon Ball Z, which was another series of declining popularity and that was off television at the time with little hint that it would return anytime soon. Had DBZ stayed on television, it would probably still be in ASJ, especially if it had remained anywhere near as ridiculously popular as it was during the Cell Saga, when it was the highest rated daily show on cable.
Right now, they have two series that are currently hits on Toonami, Naruto (which is a smash hit) and One Piece (for whatever reason). Why on God's green Earth would Viz skip ahead in either one of those?
Have they announced plans to that end?
I can understand why Bat Den overreaction, he loves this series so bad, he wanted it highley popluar. Don't get me wrong, I'm on no one's side, now the series on T.V. is moderate popluar and won't get higher then that overnight, and I don't believe Viz is on the same level of stupidty as 4kids.
I meant no offense Bat Den, I know your not stupid, yet you don't need to overreact. Just be patiant and see how the series fare. Don't worry about what Viz is doing. Smile
Currently writing a book
I'm not a big fan of Viz's translations, and honestly never have been. I've heard they've improved substantially since their VGA and X/1999 days, but I'm still unwilling to support them if they're unable to provide me with an excellent translation.
Japanese tankouban for me.
I'm not a big fan of Viz's translations, and honestly never have been. I've heard they've improved substantially since their VGA and X/1999 days, but I'm still unwilling to support them if they're unable to provide me with an excellent translation.
Japanese tankouban for me.
Do you have any chance reading english volume 9? Japanese tanks are your choice
Currently writing a book
@joekido:
Do you have any chance reading english volume 9? Japanese tanks are your choice
Haven't read volume 9. I have paged through a friend's copies of a few of the English manga, mostly to read the SBS.
I prefer the Japanese–not only because Viz has a track record of questionable translations--but also because because looking at the original Japanese can clear up a confusing English translation.
@joekido:
I can understand why Bat Den overreaction, he loves this series so bad, he wanted it highley popluar.
I'm getting a little tired of people who seem to actively want One Piece to fail in the United States because they don't like a particular translation. These people are making such statements without understanding any of the consequences of such a failure.
It especially bugs me when people say things that are wholly incorrect just to bolster their position like One Piece is unpopular. It's not, it's just not as popular as Naruto, otherwise it wouldn't be drawing as well as it does on Toonami. I can't find stats for actual manga sales outside of the Diamond numbers, but those I do see from Diamond indicate moderate success for One Piece in the direct market, which is about right when you consider the television ratings.
Complicating things since 2009.
I'm getting a little tired of people who seem to actively want One Piece to fail in the United States because they don't like a particular translation. These people are making such statements without understanding any of the consequences of such a failure.
It especially bugs me when people say things that are wholly incorrect just to bolster their position like One Piece is unpopular. It's not, it's just not as popular as Naruto, otherwise it wouldn't be drawing as well as it does on Toonami. I can't find stats for actual manga sales outside of the Diamond numbers, but those I do see from Diamond indicate moderate success for One Piece in the direct market, which is about right when you consider the television ratings.
Ubig, you cup. I did not say I wanted One Piece to fail in the United States, I also wanted it popluar, as it gets moderate popluar is a good thing because it will get highley popluar soon. What makes you think you think I wanted it to fail? I agreed with you and I olny stating how Bat Den overreacts a bit so I did did not want the series to fall. I've been waiting since I frist got into One Piece that I wanted to see it highley popluar here one day and that day is coming.
Ubiq, notice that OP is in a prime-time slot for CN; prime-time usually denotes a good show or a show that's there to get extra ratings, because more people watch prime-time in general. How should I say this? Naruto is at 9:00 and people tune in to see it. People tune in at 10:00 and OP just happens to be on.
…
Furthermore, One Piece has failed in the United States. What else would one call a phenomenon that didn't take across cultural borders? Princess Mononoke, a record-breaking Miyazaki film, failed in the US too!
What sucks is that 4Kids has managed to aquire a prime-time TV slot to create the illussion that their show is actually gaining a crowd; this serves as an excuse to NOT IMPROVE IT. If OP were truely popular, it wouldn't have low ratings on 4Kids.tv and Miguzi (though the latter is unconfirmed).
…
On a final note, I hate Viz's translation and refuse to buy it. For a company that's been around this long and gotten so huge, there's some room for creative interpretation but not a total restructure of dialogue and plot points. Viz's translation is comparable to Tokyopop and Del Ray, the former of which favours quanity over quality and the latter is a new to translating manga. Negima is insanely popular despite having a poor translation, despite having "creative changes"; for example, in a recent volume (seven, I believe), a chinese student learning Japanese has a pronounced Chinese accent. In the original, this accent is accentuated by poor language structure; Del Ray, using Viz's Ranma 1/2 translators, emphasized this by having said character speak in a manner simmilar to Shampoo. It's not a correct translation, but is it bad/do people care? It's a moot point.
There are a number of "moot points" in Viz's translations I have taken personal offense at (Mihawk's dialogue), but they are excuseable; a Devil Fruit Tree and altering Nami's joke to allow for a "T" rating are not. We weren't expecting much from 4Kids; I'm sure we all expected a train wreck when licensing was announced, but I was not expecting such from Viz. Therefore, Viz's translation of OP is analogous to 4Kids butchery of the One Piece anime.
Ubiq, notice that OP is in a prime-time slot for CN; prime-time usually denotes a good show or a show that's there to get extra ratings, because more people watch prime-time in general. How should I say this? Naruto is at 9:00 and people tune in to see it. People tune in at 10:00 and OP just happens to be on.
…
Furthermore, One Piece has failed in the United States. What else would one call a phenomenon that didn't take across cultural borders? Princess Mononoke, a record-breaking Miyazaki film, failed in the US too!
What sucks is that 4Kids has managed to aquire a prime-time TV slot to create the illussion that their show is actually gaining a crowd; this serves as an excuse to NOT IMPROVE IT. If OP were truely popular, it wouldn't have low ratings on 4Kids.tv and Miguzi (though the latter is unconfirmed).
…
On a final note, I hate Viz's translation and refuse to buy it. For a company that's been around this long and gotten so huge, there's some room for creative interpretation but not a total restructure of dialogue and plot points. Viz's translation is comparable to Tokyopop and Del Ray, the former of which favours quanity over quality and the latter is a new to translating manga. Negima is insanely popular despite having a poor translation, despite having "creative changes"; for example, in a recent volume (seven, I believe), a chinese student learning Japanese has a pronounced Chinese accent. In the original, this accent is accentuated by poor language structure; Del Ray, using Viz's Ranma 1/2 translators, emphasized this by having said character speak in a manner simmilar to Shampoo. It's not a correct translation, but is it bad/do people care? It's a moot point.
There are a number of "moot points" in Viz's translations I have taken personal offense at (Mihawk's dialogue), but they are excuseable; a Devil Fruit Tree and altering Nami's joke to allow for a "T" rating are not. We weren't expecting much from 4Kids; I'm sure we all expected a train wreck when licensing was announced, but I was not expecting such from Viz. Therefore, Viz's translation of OP is analogous to 4Kids butchery of the One Piece anime.
People like you are the reason why One Piece is having a hard time getting popluar here.
Currently writing a book
I stopped buying the books around the arlong arc, because if im gonna pay 8.51 for a manga it better be done to it's best.
@joekido:
People like you are the reason why One Piece is having a hard time getting popluar here.
Right, ranting on some forum and not buying tankos makes OP less popular. It's almost as if 4Kids and Viz themselves are immune to criticism. Since when should we settle for "second best" when we had a first-class manga to start with? I demand a first-class manga, and my money listens to me. As a customer, it is my right to obstain from spending my money if I feel the product is inferior.
Right, ranting on some forum and not buying tankos makes OP less popular. It's almost as if 4Kids and Viz themselves are immune to criticism. Since when should we settle for "second best" when we had a first-class manga to start with? I demand a first-class manga, and my money listens to me. As a customer, it is my right to obstain from spending my money if I feel the product is inferior.
May sound selfish but I won't offend you, if that is how you think, you might have to reconsire.
Tell me, do you want One Piece to get popluar here? If yes then you should support that.
If English is my first language, I would be buying VIZ tankos no matter what. Even if the translation sucks, VIZ sales is the "official" sales in North America, and that judges the popularity of One Piece in general. I say in general because we, at Arlong Park, probably don't even represent 5% of total sales. (700 forum members that regulary come here? Blah.)
When lack of sales happens, that'll lead discouragement in improving its quality. Who would want spend extra effort to perfect the low-profitable manga? Not all the people who work for VIZ is a fan of certain title. One Piece team may not be interested in One Piece at all. If that's the case, isn't the sale the only motivation for them to improve?
For one manga title I love the most, I even bought English tankos. Even though I never read through it and probably never will, isn't it the way to show the support for your love? (read: doesn't mean that support VIZ)
Ubiq, notice that OP is in a prime-time slot for CN; prime-time usually denotes a good show or a show that's there to get extra ratings, because more people watch prime-time in general.
So basically, they're giving a prime spot to a show that doesn't deserve it. Statements like this tell me that you really don't understand how television networks work, which is somewhat backed up by your statement that scanslations would be legal if Viz stopped producing it.
Furthermore, One Piece has failed in the United States. What else would one call a phenomenon that didn't take across cultural borders?
The numbers suggest that One Piece is a moderate success in the United States. Moderate success in one country does not equal failure no matter how popular it is in its home country, deal with it.
Princess Mononoke, a record-breaking Miyazaki film, failed in the US too!
By what possible standard?
It was pushed back several months from its original release date to avoid competing with Tarzan and stuck in only a handful of theaters for a very limited run. It still made $2.3 million dollars (with a very high per theater average) and received serious consideration for a nomination for Best Picture. How in the hell is that a failure?
What sucks is that 4Kids has managed to aquire a prime-time TV slot to create the illussion that their show is actually gaining a crowd
You do realize that One Piece recieved considerably higher ratings than the show that aired before it in the time slot the year before, right?
I guess it doesn't matter as you're obviously not paying attention to the facts.
If OP were truely popular, it wouldn't have low ratings on 4Kids.tv and Miguzi (though the latter is unconfirmed).
If it has low ratings, then why in the hell does Cartoon Network give it a prime daily afternoon slot, a daily primetime slot, and a prime timeslot on Toonami? It's one thing to push an original series in this fashion, but One Piece has be reasonably successful if they keep giving it this much airtime.
Therefore, Viz's translation of OP is analogous to 4Kids butchery of the One Piece anime.
Oh for God's sake, how can you possibly, possibly consider that to be the case?
It's almost as if 4Kids and Viz themselves are immune to criticism.
They're not immune to criticism, but nobody should be subjected to criticism that is inherently incorrect.
I despise the 4Kids dub, but I'm seriously considering building a shrine to them simply because of the way people are reacting towards it anymore.
As a customer, it is my right to obstain from spending my money if I feel the product is inferior.
And who disputes that?
Hey, why not go to toy stores and start hiding merchandise so little kids don't buy it either or making up stories so parents won't buy it for their kids? Because that's who you're starting to sound like.
When lack of sales happens, that'll lead discouragement in improving its quality. Who would want spend extra effort to perfect the low-profitable manga? Not all the people who work for VIZ is a fan of certain title. One Piece team may not be interested in One Piece at all. If that's the case, isn't the sale the only motivation for them to improve?
This is precisely the point that most people are missing. Buying the original version in no way improves the English version, which barring extraordinary circumstances will always be in the same hands. Any improvement will have to come from Viz or 4Kids.
You want the dub to improve? The best way to do that is to wait and see if Viz releases an uncut version of the DVDs (as 4Kids does not handle it's own distribution or didn't at any rate) and then buy it. If it's successful enough to compete with the cut DVDs or even surpass them in sales, then 4Kids will take the hint.
Complicating things since 2009.
When lack of sales happens, that'll lead discouragement in improving its quality. Who would want spend extra effort to perfect the low-profitable manga? Not all the people who work for VIZ is a fan of certain title. One Piece team may not be interested in One Piece at all. If that's the case, isn't the sale the only motivation for them to improve?
I'm fairly sure bad sales are more indicative of change rather than immutability. If Viz manages to make OP a hit with their current level of quality, there's no evidence to suggest they should improve (or change) the product in any way, since potential changes could possibly cause negative penalties. Corporations fear losses more than they desire gains; if they're already taking in losses, change couldn't hurt.
Remember Del Ray, the derivative of some publishing company that's fairly new to manga? Complaints went around regarding the quality of their translations, so they made changes. Complaints were made when people heard there were going to be edits to allow for a different demographic appeal; Del Ray comprimised. They've managed to make an extremely popular manga in Japan carry over its popularity, such that I rarely see new "bestseller" sales with manga titles that are not "Fullmetal Alchemist", "Naruto", or "Negima". Of those, two have had a successful dub, and the latter show will also have a good dub (from the teaser analysis released about a week and a half ago).
So basically, they're giving a prime spot to a show that doesn't deserve it. Statements like this tell me that you really don't understand how television networks work, which is somewhat backed up by your statement that scanslations would be legal if Viz stopped producing it.
I'm just some college kid, not a salary-earning network television analyst. From an amateur's point of view, 4Kids.tv doesn't earn good ratings despite being free for most people to see, but Toonami does. Hence, more people watch Toonami. The later something is, the more likely people are going to catch it. The longer something stays in one timeslot, the more likely they are not going to forget what time it shows.
Naruto's moved up and down the time ladder yet but that hasn't had any adverse effects on its popularity. Tell me, what would happen if OP was moved to the 8:00 timeslot, hmm?
The numbers suggest that One Piece is a moderate success in the United States. Moderate success in one country does not equal failure no matter how popular it is in its home country, deal with it.
We really do not have any numbers to work with; where are you pooling your data? All we know is OP isn't as successful as Bleach, Naruto, and Fullmetal Alchemist. OP is #1 in Japan, by far; it shouldn't be beaten out by these small frys.
By what possible standard?
It was pushed back several months from its original release date to avoid competing with Tarzan and stuck in only a handful of theaters for a very limited run. It still made $2.3 million dollars (with a very high per theater average) and received serious consideration for a nomination for Best Picture. How in the hell is that a failure?
Potential, my friend; that's what this discussion is about. A total waste of a cash-cow. How much did Mononoke earn in Japan?
…
Mononoke is different than OP because, while the dub was good, the marketing was bad. In this case, we have good marketing/exposure for OP but a bad dub. Both are contributing factors to overall failed market potential.
You do realize that One Piece recieved considerably higher ratings than the show that aired before it in the time slot the year before, right?
What was there last year? I can't remember. Yu Yu Hakusho? All that your statement supports is that more people are watching cartoons or paying for cable, and that's disregarding the presence of Naruto and the Adult Swim block. Notice how Adult Swim is #1 on all cable television for a lucrative demographic; 18-24 year old males. Huh! I turned eighteen this year; that must mean me too, and I'm also into OP and Naruto. Could a great deal of these guys also be contributing to the Toonami block, which is on right before Adult Swim?
I guess it doesn't matter as you're obviously not paying attention to the facts.
I love facts! Why don't you stop speculating and give me some? :3
If it has low ratings, then why in the hell does Cartoon Network give it a prime daily afternoon slot, a daily primetime slot, and a prime timeslot on Toonami? It's one thing to push an original series in this fashion, but One Piece has be reasonably successful if they keep giving it this much airtime.
Because it was an expensive and long series that has been royally fudged up. It's the first Shounen Jump (big label) series that's owned entirely by 4Kids, and they do not want it to die a horrible flaming death; hence, they're doing their best to give it extraordinary exposure, even more than DBZ. Yet draws a smaller crowd than Naruto. OP has a huge problem with appealing to the right demographic, so we see it on a kids network and a tweens network.
Naruto started off with blocks repeating just a couple episodes. Now, the world is forced to have one new episode per week. Naruto had good exposure. OP is attempt the same, but on an even larger scale.
Oh for God's sake, how can you possibly, possibly consider that to be the case?
Hold on, let me rest my hands. Debating with a God-Hand isn't easy, y'know. ~.~;
…anyway, it's just my opinion, and I shan't elaborate further beyond what I offerred initially. Basically, Viz had a lot of credibility and I've lost faith in them. I didn't have faith in 4Kids to begin with. Does that elucidate things?
They're not immune to criticism, but nobody should be subjected to criticism that is inherently incorrect.
That's stupid. Who are you to deem my criticism incorrect? We're talking about preferences and what we deem is a faithful adaption.
I despise the 4Kids dub, but I'm seriously considering building a shrine to them simply because of the way people are reacting towards it anymore.
So? You can go do that; why bother to bring it up? It's not like we're going to really care.
Hey, why not go to toy stores and start hiding merchandise so little kids don't buy it either or making up stories so parents won't buy it for their kids? Because that's who you're starting to sound like.
Pull the other one, please. I don't care about toys.
This is precisely the point that most people are missing. Buying the original version in no way improves the English version, which barring extraordinary circumstances will always be in the same hands. Any improvement will have to come from Viz or 4Kids.
If something's doing well, WHY CHANGE IT?
When lack of sales happens, that'll lead discouragement in improving its quality. Who would want spend extra effort to perfect the low-profitable manga? Not all the people who work for VIZ is a fan of certain title. One Piece team may not be interested in One Piece at all. If that's the case, isn't the sale the only motivation for them to improve?
For one manga title I love the most, I even bought English tankos. Even though I never read through it and probably never will, isn't it the way to show the support for your love? (read: doesn't mean that support VIZ)
I understand your logic, but I disagree with it. If sales are poor, VIZ will be forced to improve their manga to cater to the tastes of their market. Now, whether they believe their market to be eight-year olds who have to beg their parents for money to buy comics, or teenagers with jobs who have money to buy their comics has yet to be seen. But until Viz improves its translations, I refuse to buy from them. I'll support Oda by purchasing Weekly Jump and Japanese One Piece tankouban.
@ joekido its batdan not bat den.
any way i like viz selling one piece. They are what got me into one piece so they are good.
I also like the title one piece: grand line if it starts at 12 and then relases monthly
I'm fairly sure bad sales are more indicative of change rather than immutability. If Viz manages to make OP a hit with their current level of quality, there's no evidence to suggest they should improve (or change) the product in any way, since potential changes could possibly cause negative penalties. Corporations fear losses more than they desire gains; if they're already taking in losses, change couldn't hurt.
I say One Piece in general is not favored by American (or English speaking) audience. I don't know who the most Naruto/Bleach fan are based, but look at them. They have multiple forums, each containing probably more members than AP Forum.
If sales are poor, VIZ will be forced to improve their manga to cater to the tastes of their market.
Sales is already poor. (Talked to somebody who worked for VIZ, though he was assuming, too.) Why spending extra effort when there're more manga out there they can work on?
Sales is already poor. (Talked to somebody who worked for VIZ, though he was assuming, too.) Why spending extra effort when there're more manga out there they can work on?
They're stuck with the license until it expires. It's better to make a little money off of a license they purchased, rather than none at all.
Holy fucking crap. I come back from school and I see chewouts that put Zephos to shame.
I went to CBR and the standings for Janurary have One Piece 9 at 15th place. That's pretty good considering in December it was in 46th.
But I agree, why bother continuing with One Piece which is failing when there's much better selling manga that's succeeding.
They're stuck with the license until it expires. It's better to make a little money off of a license they purchased, rather than none at all.
Exactly. That's why they're not trying to improve.
Once many of my scanlation project I was helping with were licensed by VIZ. Aka-chan to Boku, Ouran Koukou Host Club, Ultra Maniac… All went to Shojo Beat. I did buy Shojo Beat magazine and compared the translations with Japanese, and I was more than satisfied (except Ultra Maniac). You can read about it [ur=http://aku-tenshi.com/a.html]here. (I can't believe I still have that page up on the web.) True, it was a launch of new project (Shojo Beat), so they might've spent extra effort to make them look good, but think about it. If the sales isn't good for SB, would they try to keep up same quality? Try to improve?
I'm just some college kid, not a salary-earning network television analyst.
You don't have to be to just look at the numbers and say that One Piece isn't doing that badly. I'm certainly not.
From an amateur's point of view, 4Kids.tv doesn't earn good ratings despite being free for most people to see, but Toonami does.
Wow, so a show on a block designed around anime by people who have successfully promoted such shows for almost a decade does better than it does on 4Kids. Whatever are the chances of that?
Naruto's moved up and down the time ladder yet but that hasn't had any adverse effects on its popularity. Tell me, what would happen if OP was moved to the 8:00 timeslot, hmm?
I doubt it'd hurt it that much; back in November, Naruto was only drawing .2 of a ratings point more than One Piece, which means that One Piece is doing a remarkable job holding its viewers. It might draw less without Naruto as a lead-in, but it shouldn't collapse either.
Why lead off Miguzi if it's not able to stand on its own, why not put it on after Yu-Gi-Oh GX and let it draw off that show's viewers?
We really do not have any numbers to work with; where are you pooling your data? All we know is OP isn't as successful as Bleach, Naruto, and Fullmetal Alchemist. OP is #1 in Japan, by far; it shouldn't be beaten out by these small frys.
SO FRICKIN' WHAT IF IT'S NUMBER ONE IN JAPAN? It's not number one here, but that doesn't make it a failure.
Americans are not Japanese and respond differently. Sometimes their interests coincide with what's popular in Japan and sometimes they don't.
The Big O is an excellent example of that.
Potential, my friend; that's what this discussion is about. A total waste of a cash-cow. How much did Mononoke earn in Japan?
About seventy five times that. How many theaters was it in Japan? I'm assuming that it was more than 129. How long was it's run? I doubt it only ran limited engagements in Japan.
Both are contributing factors to overall failed market potential.
The marketing for the dub is quite a bit better on Cartoon Network than it was on Fox. Not surprisingly, the dub is doing better on Toonami than it did on 4Kids TV. If I recall correctly, there's been speculation on Toonzone and a few other places that it might eventually make its way back on 4Kids based on it's Toonami success.
Could a great deal of these guys also be contributing to the Toonami block, which is on right before Adult Swim?
Actually, it's doing remarkably well in the 9-14 demographic as well as the 6-11 demographic if I recall correctly. It did in fact replace Yu Yu Hakusho, but it's ratings for December were pretty close to Naruto's. Are you now going to argue that the Naruto dub has not been a success?
I love facts! Why don't you stop speculating and give me some? :3
http://www.toonamiinfolink.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=975
Here's the November numbers, I'm still hunting for more recent stats. Most cable lists only have the top 10 or 15 shows and even Naruto doesn't show up on that list for the dates that I can find. For most shows, you have to wait for the network itself to issue a press release and they only do that every so often.
As far as manga sales go, the only numbers I can find are the Diamond Distribution numbers and those are all but irrelevant as the direct market skews away from manga.
hence, they're doing their best to give it extraordinary exposure, even more than DBZ.
Uh huh. And Cartoon Network is going along with this why exactly if One Piece isn't at least drawing numbers to make it somewhat worthwhile?
Yet draws a smaller crowd than Naruto.
Not that much smaller from what I've seen. From what I gather, it holds most of Naruto's key demographics.
Who are you to deem my criticism incorrect? We're talking about preferences and what we deem is a faithful adaption.
Because you're arguing that One Piece is a failure in the US based on numbers, which isn't the case. You can't just decide it's a failure because you don't like what they're doing with it when your argument isn't supported.
It's like claiming that scanslations will be legal again if Viz drops the series, it's something that simply isn't true.
Again, a lot of people are suggesting Shonen Jump should drop One Piece and release volumes instead. How does it benefit One Piece exactly to go from a magazine with a respectable subscriber base to monthly volumes that are recieving moderate sales at best in numbers that are less than the subscriber base?
I just think that if Viz wanted to be successful with One Piece. They should've kept some of the Japanese references in.
Such as Nakama and not translating Gomu into Gum (even though this is a literal translation).
Of course, the best way the could've been successful, was too not make Naruto and Yugi their bitches. They put so much effort into these two and barely concentrated on the others.
They're stuck with the license until it expires. It's better to make a little money off of a license they purchased, rather than none at all.
How did they spend to get the license to One Piece though? By the time ASJ came into existence, Viz was already part owned by Shueisha.
I know that they spent something to get it (Spike Network spent money to gain the rights to show Star Trek and they're part of Universal after all), but I doubt it was all that much realistically speaking.
Such as Nakama and not translating Gomu into Gum (even though this is a literal translation).
Insisting that Nakama should be left alone has really never that much sense to me to be honest. It's leaving a Japanese term that has no meaning at all for somebody who is not Japanese or is not already familiar with the series instead of substituting a word that actually means something to the average reader.
I personally don't see how the Japanese terms might appeal to some readers. Sure, fans who read scanlations/watch fansubs would understand the reference (I do find it slightly odd seeing Luffy say "Gum Gum" after watching 130 eps where he says "Gomu Gomu"), and I wouldn't mind seeing Gomu Gomu used (if DBZ can use Kame Hame Ha I can't see why OP can't use Gomu Gomu - Gum Gum is alright mind), but I fail to see how it would attract people outside of the fandom. Do you honestly thing more people would read it if they started to use random Japanese terms in it? I fail to see how it would make much of a difference.
In all honesty do we want OP to turn into something as successful as DBZ, Naruto and YGO? I've seen alot of people anti DB and YGO, partly because of how popular they have become. I'm slightly anti Naruto because of the way most of the fans react towards it. Do we want One Piece to go down the same path? I personally don't. Don't get me wrong - I'd like it to be in the top 10 rather than the top 20 (which isn't all that bad IMO), but I don't want the people who bad mouth DBZ and YGO to add OP to their list.
Would you rather have people bad mouthing it because it's a shitty kids show with annoying voice actors and retarded dialouge?
Or would you rather have it bad mouthed because it's popular?
You decide.
Argh, the God-Hand responded. Rebuttles to appear here (boy, I sound like ooshi o.o).
You don't have to be to just look at the numbers and say that One Piece isn't doing that badly. I'm certainly not.
What you think doesn't really matter. It's what the public thinks, and the public communicates to Viz in terms of numbers; quanities of manga produced and sold. Whether or not we think OP is doing well doesn't matter; our opinions on sales are always second to data.
Wow, so a show on a block designed around anime by people who have successfully promoted such shows for almost a decade does better than it does on 4Kids. Whatever are the chances of that?
Your English confused me…I think you mean FoxKids/Saban? That company really had only one major Anime blockbuster (though it had Power Rangers and a bunch of American-made shows); Digimon. Digimon was probably the most perfect series for non-cable television; the monsters vaporized when they died, the attacks couldn't be imitated by children, and it was well acted. Even though the show had a tongue-in-cheek dub, it was done at such a high quality that the inserted puns were a strength, not a weakness. Digimon probably set the precedent for 4Kids' modern method of dubbing.
And if you havn't noticed, Ubiq, there are a number of "4Kids.tv" logos on the channel, indicating that 4Kids.tv is not FoxKids, nor is it FoxBox.
I doubt it'd hurt it that much; back in November, Naruto was only drawing .2 of a ratings point more than One Piece, which means that One Piece is doing a remarkable job holding its viewers. It might draw less without Naruto as a lead-in, but it shouldn't collapse either.
I agree, though Naruto was only a month or so old in November…oh, you mean the Nielson Ratings report for November? I remember that, though I think Naruto was .8 higher, and there a couple of factors to incorporate.
The first is that dub OP fans were forced to tune into CN to see OP; of all the arcs done so far in the series, Drum is agreed upon by most of Arlong Park to be the best dubbed arc of the series. Lastly, Naruto started in late September...hrmm, I'm guessing that was the beginning of the Zabuza arc, which was long but had serious action in it, as well as good drama.
From my amateur point of view, the OP dub was at a high point during the ratings period, while Naruto was still trying to get off the ground. Furthermore, the dub was also put in a favorable spot at 10:00 right behind Naruto at 9:30.
Why lead off Miguzi if it's not able to stand on its own, why not put it on after Yu-Gi-Oh GX and let it draw off that show's viewers?
Although I first reported the Miguzi broadcast, I really know little what's going on there. I'll trust you to brief me on the matter; how long is Miguzi, when does it start, and what are the constituent shows aside from YGOGX and OP?
SO FRICKIN' WHAT IF IT'S NUMBER ONE IN JAPAN? It's not number one here, but that doesn't make it a failure.
Youre definition of failure is different from mine, and we are both likely different from Viz. I think OP is a failure because it is a failed phenomenon; it is a cash-cow in Japan, and many cash-cows there carry through to America with a couple exceptions, likely do to dispositions. Your definition of a failure is probably that OP barely exceeds production costs and doesn't have a strong audience, and that the final "sign" of failure is Viz announcing a discontinuation. Am I correct in this?
I should note, though, that we should compare OP sales to Bo-Bobo, Slam Dunk, Hikaru no Go and Prince of Tennis before calling OP a failure in your definition. While OP isn't a phenomenon and is no longer in the same league as Bleach, Naruto and FMA, hopefully it sells better than the aforementioned. If it doesn't, then things are quite grim for Oda's masterpiece.
Americans are not Japanese and respond differently. Sometimes their interests coincide with what's popular in Japan and sometimes they don't.
True.
The Big O is an excellent example of that.
Big O began as an experiment, though. What brought it back were DVD sales; money was influential in its return.
The marketing for the dub is quite a bit better on Cartoon Network than it was on Fox. Not surprisingly, the dub is doing better on Toonami than it did on 4Kids TV. If I recall correctly, there's been speculation on Toonzone and a few other places that it might eventually make its way back on 4Kids based on it's Toonami success.
It should be on 4Kids.tv regardless of success; 4Kids is wasting expenses by editing heavily for Toonami. OP was tied with TMNT as the highest rated show there for a while. 4Kids.tv attracts mostly girls, though.
Actually, it's doing remarkably well in the 9-14 demographic as well as the 6-11 demographic if I recall correctly. It did in fact replace Yu Yu Hakusho, but it's ratings for December were pretty close to Naruto's. Are you now going to argue that the Naruto dub has not been a success?
…blast, gettin' nagged. I'll respond later...
http://www.toonamiinfolink.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=975
Here's the November numbers, I'm still hunting for more recent stats. Most cable lists only have the top 10 or 15 shows and even Naruto doesn't show up on that list for the dates that I can find. For most shows, you have to wait for the network itself to issue a press release and they only do that every so often.
As far as manga sales go, the only numbers I can find are the Diamond Distribution numbers and those are all but irrelevant as the direct market skews away from manga.
Uh huh. And Cartoon Network is going along with this why exactly if One Piece isn't at least drawing numbers to make it somewhat worthwhile?
Not that much smaller from what I've seen. From what I gather, it holds most of Naruto's key demographics.
Because you're arguing that One Piece is a failure in the US based on numbers, which isn't the case. You can't just decide it's a failure because you don't like what they're doing with it when your argument isn't supported.
It's like claiming that scanslations will be legal again if Viz drops the series, it's something that simply isn't true.
Again, a lot of people are suggesting Shonen Jump should drop One Piece and release volumes instead. How does it benefit One Piece exactly to go from a magazine with a respectable subscriber base to monthly volumes that are recieving moderate sales at best in numbers that are less than the subscriber base?
Sorry, Ubiq; TBA at a later time.
@Caracal:
In all honesty do we want OP to turn into something as successful as DBZ, Naruto and YGO? I've seen alot of people anti DB and YGO, partly because of how popular they have become. I'm slightly anti Naruto because of the way most of the fans react towards it. Do we want One Piece to go down the same path? I personally don't. Don't get me wrong - I'd like it to be in the top 10 rather than the top 20 (which isn't all that bad IMO), but I don't want the people who bad mouth DBZ and YGO to add OP to their list.
One Piece is different from DBZ and YGO; it doesn't suck with age. OP will soon surpass Ranma 1/2 in length without any decrease in quality; sure, people might dislike some arcs more than others, but overall Oda just gets better and better. DBZ and YGO are hated because they're redundant and cliche; after DB, inventing new techniques and using them against an opponent was repleaced for non-stop punching and random ki blasts. Technique was superseded by strength. YGO is much the same; so many new cards were introduced into the game, people didn't know the content of a character's deck, so predicting how a character could win a duel wasn't as fun; protagonists would always win unless convienent to do so. OP would be the first run-away success that could be justified.
BatDan: My sister purchased Animerica. Here are the classifications of three big Shounen Jump titles. Analyze them carefully.
@Animerica's:
Dragon Ball: For most, this title brings visions of days-long power charging and months-long battles to mind. Before artist/writer Akira Toriyama made the whimsical tales of Goku into an in-print pay-per-view event, however, there was still a level of raw adventure that still remains virtually unsurpassed. Dragon Ball is the perfect example of a series that captures imaginations and runs berserk with wild ideas while still remaining charming and hillarious. Ranked #5 of 10.
Rurouni Kenshin: What would the world of manga be without its period pieces? better yet, what would anime and manga fandom be without Nobuhiro Watsuki's iconic wandering swordsman Kenshin? Just think, while pondering these rhetorical questions you could have been flipping through one of Japan's most popular series, which ran from 1994 to 1999 and sliced through over 25 graphic novels of former-assassin Action. Ranked #7 of 10.
One Piece: Exciting tales that still maintain a certain level of childlike playfullness without making you feel like an actual child are pretty rare nowadays. Before, there were series such as Toriyama's Dragon Ball and, thanks to his influence, we now have the adventures of Monkey D. Luffy and his rag=tag [orate crew. Eiichiro Oda's knockout hit is hovering around its 40th volume in Japan and remains one of manga's true simple pleasures. Ranked #9 of 10.
To quote the movie, "Analyze this"! Here's my quick take before I respond to the God-Hand; Viz gave OP some good publicity, but there's more harm in that summary than benefit.
when it means ranked 9 out of 10 does it mean 9 on the list of 10 or 9 out of 10 scale. Like 10 best 1 worst kinda thing
Who the hell is the God-Hand you're referring too?
Also, those rankings don't make sense at all.
I think he's talking baout the scene where Sanji attacked Zoro for calling Nami a "little servent" but in Japanese, it was mistaken for small-chested.
It's a pun only the Japanese can understand. So it had to be altered. Though the way it was altered was stupid.
I think he's talking baout the scene where Sanji attacked Zoro for calling Nami a "little servent" but in Japanese, it was mistaken for small-chested.
It's a pun only the Japanese can understand. So it had to be altered. Though the way it was altered was stupid.
Live with it, you know you can't make everyone happy
So basically, they're giving a prime spot to a show that doesn't deserve it. Statements like this tell me that you really don't understand how television networks work, which is somewhat backed up by your statement that scanslations would be legal if Viz stopped producing it..
Actually, I've been keeping track of OP on cartoon network for a while now and, if you'll notice, it shuffles it's time slot a lot. Yes, they would put a failing show in a prime spot like that, and try it for a while; this is the fourth prime spot it's been on, in fact. So however well it's doing, CN isn't satisfied with it.
And before you start saying I don't know anything, my dad (may he RIP) worked for Fred Friendly and was on…dan rather? I think dan rather's production team. Along with really funny stories of being woken up at five in the morning to fly all the hell way out to Afganistan, he talked a lot about how the business he used to be in worked.
I despise the 4Kids dub, but I'm seriously considering building a shrine to them simply because of the way people are reacting towards it anymore..
I agree, we should do only criticism with a basis in facts. Like how they got a gerbil with it's nuts in a vice to voice Usopp ><
This is precisely the point that most people are missing. Buying the original version in no way improves the English version, which barring extraordinary circumstances will always be in the same hands. Any improvement will have to come from Viz or 4Kids.
You want the dub to improve? The best way to do that is to wait and see if Viz releases an uncut version of the DVDs (as 4Kids does not handle it's own distribution or didn't at any rate) and then buy it. If it's successful enough to compete with the cut DVDs or even surpass them in sales, then 4Kids will take the hint.
I know, and I've got my fingers crossed. Tell me, when Viz releases uncut DVD's, do they change the voices? Because I dunno if I could survive Usopp's nightmare voice….
when it means ranked 9 out of 10 does it mean 9 on the list of 10 or 9 out of 10 scale. Like 10 best 1 worst kinda thing
Firstly, remember that Animerica is distributed by Walden Books and Border's, but published by Viz.
Viz picked the ten "best" manga it published and ranked them accordingly in order from what they felt was "the" best, to the tenth best. The order is as follows (the bold is what we care about):
@Animerica's:
- Lone Wolf.
- Akira.
- Nausicaä and the Valley of the Wind.
- Fist of the North Star.
5) Dragon Ball.- Hideshi Hino Horror
7) Rurouni Kenshin- Dr. Slump
9) One Piece- Fushigi Yūgi
I hope that clears things up.
Who the hell is the God-Hand you're referring too?
I think Ubiq's name is derivative of Ubik, a science fiction novel by Phillip K. Dick. The name Ubik was borroed for one of the "God-Hands" of Kentaro Miura's manga, Berserk. It's just a cool nickname for Ubiq. =P
I think he's talking baout the scene where Sanji attacked Zoro for calling Nami a "little servent" but in Japanese, it was mistaken for small-chested.
It's a pun only the Japanese can understand. So it had to be altered. Though the way it was altered was stupid.
That's actually not the joke I was referring to, though mention of a simmilar alteration does raise alarms for me. I was referring to the more recent Nami flasback where Nami promises to repay Genzo with her body. Nami was imitating Belle-Mere so it really funny, but having her repay Genzo with kisses sounds weird. Like a big deal over nothing, just like Nami punching Bon Clay without showing the flashing seen.
I think Ubiq's name is derivative of Ubik, a science fiction novel by Phillip K. Dick. The name Ubik was borroed for one of the "God-Hands" of Kentaro Miura's manga, Berserk. It's just a cool nickname for Ubiq. =P
Actually, it's short for Ubiqtorate, which is a Star Wars reference. They're the Empire's Cipher Pol basically.
That's actually not the joke I was referring to, though mention of a simmilar alteration does raise alarms for me. I was referring to the more recent Nami flasback where Nami promises to repay Genzo with her body. Nami was imitating Belle-Mere so it really funny, but having her repay Genzo with kisses sounds weird.
Personally I have no problem with this change. I mean Nami is what, ten years old in the flashback. Due to the pedophilic implications of having a ten year old girl basically offering to pay a grown man back with sex, I can understand the reason for the change. One Piece's reputation is iffy as it is. The last thing it needs is for soccor moms to complain about it having pedophilic implications.
And as for the "small chest" joke, I agree with BatDan and joekido. It's a joke that couldn't work in the west. I can't think of any comment involving flat or small that Sanji could misinterpret.
Personally I have no problem with this change. I mean Nami is what, ten years old in the flashback. Due to the pedophilic implications of having a ten year old girl basically offering to pay a grown man back with sex, I can understand the reason for the change. One Piece's reputation is iffy as it is. The last thing it was is for soccor moms to complain about it having pedophilic implications.
And as for the "small chest" joke, I agree with BatDan and joekido. It's a joke that couldn't work in the west. I can't think of any comment involving flat or small that Sanji could misinterpret.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I was reading that. It's not that big of a deal, in the long run. The things people should complain about (if anything) is Zolo and Coco Village. They don't really bother me that much (well Zolo does), but are still more serious than some speech edits.
The way I see it is like this: I am Viz and putting my product out. You want it changed and I do it. You do not like it and don't buy it. The ones who were buying it doesn't like it and stop. Now I just got bit in the ass for some people . One way is to ask them to put out one volume unedited and see how many are sold. This way they can keep their group and see if a new one would buy . "throws up hands" But this is just my opinon. Those who can read and buy it in the japanese, go ahead cause I can't . I will still buy Viz and watch 4Kids not because I like theirs , but because it is One Piece.
The things people should complain about (if anything) is Zolo and Coco Village. They don't really bother me that much (well Zolo does), but are still more serious than some speech edits.
Agreed. However I don't view Coco Village as being a major problem. Sure, it would be better if the original name was used but it only features in four graphic novels out of forty. Again I would prefer it if Zoro was used, but I'm starting to get used to seeing Zolo.
