I'm still trying to understand why the officials UPHELD THE CALL after it was shown in slow motion that Jennings intercepted the ball.
This game will forever be known as the Seattle Screwjob.
I'm still trying to understand why the officials UPHELD THE CALL after it was shown in slow motion that Jennings intercepted the ball.
This game will forever be known as the Seattle Screwjob.
There is never a good excuse for ref's costing a team the game. The previous 59 minutes are irrelevant if the refs cost a game. The owners are more to blame than the locked out officials.
Steve Young was totally pissed about the ending of the game, just a few minutes ago on ESPN. I totally agree with him about it.
so how bout dem refs guys
There was what 8 sacks in the first half. The packers haven't scored this season in the first quarter yet. The packers got a bullshit pass interference call earlier that led to their only touchdown and the lead they had.
Sorry if I'm not feeling that the game was decided on ONE call that would be a hard call to make. Ignoring our slow motion seeing it 100 times and being super smart in HINDSIGHT people.
As for the call being reviewed. It was reviewed by people up in the booth, NOT the ref's. And they were not reviewing who caught the ball, their job was ONLY to decide if both players were in bounds and that the ball was caught and did not touch the ground. Thus why no matter what the instant replay shows they can not overturn it to an interception.
Like I said eariler I can't wait for the DP Show tomarrow just to hear Dan and the gang opinion about this craziness.
I didn't know the definitions of interception and touchdown didn't apply to the final seconds of a game . Thanks replacement refs!
The ref who signaled it a touchdown should go into hiding now.
That pretty much true.
The one thing I found funny was the ref who called it a touchdown.
If you watch the replay it looks like he look at the other ref to see what he is deciding. And as soon as the black ref starts to put his hands up the white ref quickly throws up his hands for a touchdown. Like he was waiting to see what the one guy did first. Yet he misread the black guys signal.
The black ref actually got it right lol.
I noticed that when they kept showing the replay of it.
Clay Matthews posted Roger Goodell's phone number so that everyone (in the entire world) can weigh in: http://t.co/jsQcOuHc
They just talked about the phone number on Sportcenter a few minutes ago. LOL, I have to give Clay Matthews credit for that.
I was listening to a Bill Simmons podcast this morning. They joked about Romney offering $50 million to the real refs to return as a campaign ploy.
Might honestly work after that game.
I kinda knew this was going to happen sooner or later with these refs. I kinda expected this to happen whenever the Steelers and Ravens play their first game against each other of the season.
I just honestly never had the idea that it could get this bad. We complain and moan about missed/bad calls with the real refs every Monday, so I didn't think the dropoff would be so dramatic. Goodell has to be squirming right now.
I never really like Goodell in the first place, but he needs to be let go as commissionor the league, since every thing he does it just making it worst then before.
BREAKING -JaMarcus Russell eyeing return to NFL after discovering games can be
won by throwing interceptions. http://yfrog.com/oevljedtj
LOL, Oh man that was great joke. Man, I can't wait for some of the sport shows tomorrow. Espically, The Dan Patrick Show, Around the Horn, and PTI. I got a feeling Wilbon is going to have a huge rant about this tomorrow.
The regular refs are laughing their asses off right now. They have Gooddell and the owners by the balls now.
The NFL is to release a statement on the touchception later today.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066164/article/nfl-supports-decision-to-not-overturn-seahawks-touchdown
Well, there's the statement. The NFL supports the Ref's ruling on the play.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066164/article/nfl-supports-decision-to-not-overturn-seahawks-touchdown
Well, there's the statement. The NFL supports the Ref's ruling on the play.
they are only saying that so they don't lose against the real reffs.
Absolutely shitty week from the officials. All the fighting in the Pats/Ravens game, the brutal helmet to helmet hits that WEREN'T called for illegal hits (Denver hitting Matt Schaub so hard the helmet ripped a part of his ear off, the Steelers decking Darius Heyward-Bey when he had no chance of defending himself) and horrible after horrible call. Even though I love the fuck out of this sport, I am probably gonna boycott the NFL after Sunday night's Eagles/Giants game (I have to watch it) until the Real refs come back
I had a hard time getting to sleep last night, but I did eventually manage. I've slept on it, I've thought about it, and I've read and watched a bunch of various reaction across the country. Needless to say, the entire situation still just pisses me off, but I take pride in my ability to remain impartial when I try. The Packers didn't do themselves a lot of favors in that game. The first half was absolutely brutal and they were run out of the building. But they totally flipped the script in the 2nd half. I truly believe they played well enough in the 2nd half to deserve the win. To be totally honest, even though Shields got that horrible PI call, it wasn't a game changer. That same drive ended in a turnover on downs. The roughing the passer call, however? That was a game changer. That interception gives the Packers a field goal at worst, and that practically ends the game. I'm still fine with wiping that one off the books, though, because there were blown calls the other way as well. In the end, it really just came down to the end.
Obviously the last play was so awful that I don't even want to bother with finding words for it. The officials basically just got to decide who they'd rather hand the victory to, play on the field be damned. Even still, I can accept that the Packers should just play better so that this situation can't come up in the first place. Where's the line when it becomes unreasonable to ask a team to overcome unbalanced officiating, though? I'm not sure what the answer is.
But I think, here on the next day, the thing that bothers me the most is the Seahawks' reaction to this whole thing. From Golden Tate segmenting from thanking God to telling absolute straight faced lies to the camera. Then him, Pete Carroll, and Russell Wilson (who I really liked when he played at Wisconsin) talking about how it was a good call and the victory was well earned. It bothered me then, but I brushed it off due to bitterness at the time. But seeing people react to them today, and reevaluating it again, it still annoys the piss out of me. Forget the fact that this was against the Packers, that lack of integrity and honesty is simply jarring, and frankly it angers me. Sorry Seattle, I really liked you, but I feel inclined to root heavily against you for the rest of the season at the very least. I'm actually glad it wasn't the Packers who got the cheap win and acted like that, because it would hurt me as a fan to see my team respond that way to a blatant gift they didn't earn.
Anyway, that's my tangent. My plan is to watch only Packers games for the rest of the season, and not support any others until the real refs are back. Hopefully I can stick to my convictions.
Marshawn Lynch has stated that the refs got the final play completely wrong last night and robbed Green Bay of the game. In case you didn't know, Lynch is the starting running back of the Seahawks
I didn't know he said that, actually, but good for him. All I heard was the interviews with the three I mentioned.
I'm glad he said that, because I've always liked Lynch. I don't think there's anything he can say to erase the views of the head coach and starting QB, though, no matter what he does. Tate is just forever on my shit list.
The Packers got. Fucking. Screwed. Nothing against Seattle. This is all on the officiating.
I have nothing else to say. Total BS.
Finally reasonable people on a board, ESPN comments are a bunch of bandwagon bear fans. The call fucking sucked and Golden Tate is full of shit, Goodell is a bitch and he'll hide behind this and that and still fine people for their tweets. Fuck Goodell!
@Urouge, stop posting you're making too many good points and making me angrier at the same time. I don't know if you're a fellow Packers fan or not but you are right on the money. Only reason I wasn't yelling "FUCK" at the top of my lungs last night was I was confused by the call then by the time the replay happened I realized one of my roommates was already asleep. I really wanted to hear what Colin Cowherd said, I can't stand that guy he always makes excuses for Goodell, Stern, and Selig.
I can't wait to hear what Wilbon will say on PTI in half hour. I got a feeling its going to be a huge rant.
I didn't know the definitions of interception and touchdown didn't apply to the final seconds of a game . Thanks replacement refs!
A challenge / review can't change the on field call of who came down with the ball. Thus, the refs saw it as Tate, and once they made that decision, even if they saw otherwise in the review tape it can't be overturned. What they can do is look to se if he has both hands on the ball. If he does. Touchdown.
Even beyond that, when a defender and receiver are both struggling over the same ball and nether has definitive possession it goes to the WR.
Even the regural refs could have got the call wrong.
I get what Hinscher's saying, and I do have to agree with them. The Packers did get their TD after some ref help, so whining here is kind of moot.
We just need the normal refs back.
@Urouge, stop posting you're making too many good points and making me angrier at the same time. I don't know if you're a fellow Packers fan or not but you are right on the money.
Yes, I'm a long time Packer fan after growing up in Wisconsin. And to be totally honest, I don't think this loss will hurt the Packers that much this year. The pain and BS of it all is real, but the team hasn't looked very sharp so far and this might drive them to start running through walls.
@Nex:
A challenge / review can't change the on field call of who came down with the ball. Thus, the refs saw it as Tate, and once they made that decision, even if they saw otherwise in the review tape it can't be overturned. What they can do is look to se if he has both hands on the ball. If he does. Touchdown.
This is actually not true. It was revealed by the NFL today that who has possession is reviewable when it occurs in the endzone. It was reviewed and upheld in the booth apparently, and the NFL supports the decision and agrees with it. It's just that every single analyst in the entire country has called them out for being full of shit on this one. It's generally accepted that they only stand behind this decision so they don't lose leverage in their ongoing labor dispute with the regular officials.
Even beyond that, when a defender and receiver are both struggling over the same ball and nether has definitive possession it goes to the WR.
Even the regural refs could have got the call wrong.
I'm admittedly biased on this, so I defer to literally everyone else on this. Former NFL players, former officials, locked out officials, former coaches and GM's, and seemingly everyone under the sun has declared this to be an interception without question. It's gone so far that even current players (and fans) for the Bears and Vikings, along with every other team in the NFL agree that this was an unquestionably blown call.
I get what Hinscher's saying, and I do have to agree with them. The Packers did get their TD after some ref help, so whining here is kind of moot.
We just need the normal refs back.
Has there been any game in this entire season in which this hasn't been the case on both sides? Yes, the Packers TD would have been a field goal if not for a third down pass interference that was crap. But neither that nor anything else would have likely mattered if not for the insane roughing the passer call that wiped out an interception in Seattle territory. Those weren't the only bad calls either, just the two biggest game changers outside of the last play. There were a bunch on both sides, just like every other game this year.
That doesn't change the fact that this was an easy call which unquestionably decided who won or lost by itself in the end. My proof? The fact that it's front page news across the country and even the President of the United States commented on it. When's the last time anything in the regular season has drawn that kind of reaction? I can't think of another instance in my entire life. That other stuff is standard fare. But the final call was monumental.
Everyone is falling too much on these "replacement" ref's. There has been weeks in teh past where the "REAL" refs have been shot down and complained about like no other. But people will ignore that after the next week cause well "shit happens"
And games have been decided on a ref's decision at the end of a game before as well. I remember some game some 10 years ago where they called a last second run or fourth down. Don't remember exactly. But either way it was at the very end they gave the guy a touchdown, and seeing the replay over and over again it was clear that he was easily a yard short. This was before instant replays and review I believe, but still games have been decided by refs before and in the wrong.
The bad thing about this is that this won't be forgotten in a week like it should and normally would. Next week and as has been this entire season, we will be scrutinizing everything the refs do. We will be talking about the refs. We will be talking about how "one" or "two" or "#" calls in said game decided the game. Nobody will be talking about what the players did, what bad play calls where made by coaching staffs, how the special teams blew it, ect. They will only be talking about how if some "replacement" ref had made this "ONE" call differently the game would have been different. This season has all of a sudden changed from watching teams to watching refs. Its sucks ass. Even if the real ref's come back they will be watched and scrutinized like crazy, because everyone will be expecting perfection from them.
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That doesn't change the fact that this was an easy call which unquestionably decided who won or lost by itself in the end. My proof? The fact that it's front page news across the country and even the President of the United States commented on it. When's the last time anything in the regular season has drawn that kind of reaction? I can't think of another instance in my entire life. That other stuff is standard fare. But the final call was monumental.
An easy call? The only replay they show over and over and over is a replay from an angle NO REF is standing in.
For all we know both refs could only see the backs of the defender and reciever and could not see who came down with it. The ruling on simultanious catching is that they catch it the same time and that when they reach the ground they still have it. ANY ripping away or having more control after that point it moot and means nothing. Thus by the time the refs ran up and saw that the defender had more control, means nothing at that point. They had to have already decided on a call. So I wouldn't call it EASY, without seeing what their viewpoints looked like.
I recall seeing some other camera views shown in slow motion, BUT those views you were not able to determine much of anything, thus they quit showing them and ONLY showed us eh one that you could see, which again was not an angle the refs on the field had. Now i don't want to sound like I'm defending their call. It was wrong it seems, but we are the great in hindsight people. I don't like to sound all mighty to someone when my decision is in hindsight.
Everyone is falling too much on these "replacement" ref's. There has been weeks in teh past where the "REAL" refs have been shot down and complained about like no other. But people will ignore that after the next week cause well "shit happens"
And games have been decided on a ref's decision at the end of a game before as well. I remember some game some 10 years ago where they called a last second run or fourth down. Don't remember exactly. But either way it was at the very end they gave the guy a touchdown, and seeing the replay over and over again it was clear that he was easily a yard short. This was before instant replays and review I believe, but still games have been decided by refs before and in the wrong.
The bad thing about this is that this won't be forgotten in a week like it should and normally would. Next week and as has been this entire season, we will be scrutinizing everything the refs do. We will be talking about the refs. We will be talking about how "one" or "two" or "#" calls in said game decided the game. Nobody will be talking about what the players did, what bad play calls where made by coaching staffs, how the special teams blew it, ect. They will only be talking about how if some "replacement" ref had made this "ONE" call differently the game would have been different. This season has all of a sudden changed from watching teams to watching refs. Its sucks ass. Even if the real ref's come back they will be watched and scrutinized like crazy, because everyone will be expecting perfection from them.
At most, the replacement officials change this from being a national back page story into a national front page story. The call, execution, and final decision of the officials in this case were all blatantly awful and that wouldn't change if you told me they had 1000 years of NFL officiating experience between them. This was a disaster, plain and simple.
I'm not saying that games haven't been decided on bad calls before. But you're talking about what's likely a difficult call to make, and without the crutch of instant replay behind them. This is a case where two officials standing next to each other made different calls, and the head referee didn't even bother to run over and speak one word to either of them. The entire execution of it was slaughtered, so the call on the field had to be determined to be the guy who called it first without any sort of discussion. Then the review booth had every opportunity to overturn it and every reason to, but chose not to pull the trigger on it. Did noobie officials in front of a jacked up home crowd that has a history of being screwed on final calls have something to do with it? Maybe, I can't say for sure. What I can say for sure is that they screwed up in several ways and wound up with one of the most blatantly easy and wrong final calls I've ever seen, despite instant replay.
An easy call? The only replay they show over and over and over is a replay from an angle NO REF is standing in.
When they ran over Jennings had the ball clamped to his chest and Tate was behind him giving the ball a reacharound with one hand. There's no excuse to look at what they saw and determine simultaneous possession. There are a million still images of that that you can pull up if you really want to. And let's not forget THEY HAD REPLAY AVAILABLE.
You're not just arguing against me here. You're arguing against basically the entire NFL community whose opinion matters other than the league and a few Seahawk players on this one. Believe me, I understand my own bias. If there was any hint of mixed reaction today I'd be staying out of this.
You're arguing against basically the entire NFL community whose opinion matters other than the league and a few Seahawk players on this one. Believe me, I understand my own bias. If there was any hint of mixed reaction today I'd be staying out of this.
The NFL came out and backed the decision, and showed proof why they backed it and had laws and everything showing frame by frame the play and mutliple angles. So the NFL is for the call, its only butthurt players, fans and announcers that are making a huge deal out of it.
Also as for my example, it was one of the biggest cases which lead to instant replay being used. But there have been others since that during the instant replay era that still were bad.
Oh and how about we look back on the Vikings Saints NFC championship game a few years ago. Not one person can look at that game and not see how horrible the reffing was. This was during the whole time the Saints were getting paid money to hit Favre and would get bonus' if they injured him for the game. During all this cheap shots and everything going on the refs were horrible and not calling anything. They were letting them do cheap shots and late hits. These were OFFICIAL refs.
Refs have and always will be bad.
What i hate is how right now the entire league, coaches, players and fans are using these ref's as a scape goat. They don't want to talk about why they lost or were outplayed or why their defense sucked or ect. All they are doing is blaming everything on these refs. Normally it is in bad taste for a coach or player to even mention a refferee and they might even get fined for doing so. But now its all free game. The announcers, the coaches the players the espn guys, everybody seems to have 100% free reign to blame EVERYTHING on the refs.
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When they ran over Jennings had the ball clamped to his chest and Tate was behind him giving the ball a reacharound with one hand. There's no excuse to look at what they saw and determine simultaneous possession. There are a million still images of that that you can pull up if you really want to.
.
That is too late. The ruling states that as soon as TWO feet touch the ground, or your butt or whatever is needed to consider you IN BOUNDS, that is when you look to see who has possession.
AT that point they both had both hands on the ball and were closely wrapped together. It was AFTER that when Jenning rolled over and thus had the clear shot you mention where there are hundreds of photos of. But this is already after the initial down contact where the simultanious possession is ruled.
Once simultaneous possession is in effect it does not matter who wrestles the ball away at that point, the play is over. If you want to consider that Jennings had the ball later as that picture shows, then you have to then acknowledge that at the very end the Tate ended up coming out with the ball. So he won the wrestling match in the end. But again none of that wrestling match matters. Its when both defender and reciever touch down on the ground that you look at who has the ball, not 1 second later, not 10 seconds later. At the exact time they come down. And at that point they both have it
I'm honestly surprised that you can't see how last night was a worse offense than usual. Yes, the actual real refs blow calls and make huge mistakes as well–but not as POORLY as last night, and certainly not with the frequency that led up to the disaster that was last night. Even given a clear chance to review and see their own glaring mistake--as well as the comical image of two refs with differing calls--they still blew it.
Your argument is that the NFL is for the call? The NFL being for the call IS the problem. Them backing it is not in anyway an absolvement of what went down last night. It was almost a lock that they would come out and support it. People need to remember that the real refs aren't striking, it's a lockout, if I recall, and that gives the NFL all the more reason to not concede any sort of fault here.
I'm not some butthurt fan either--I'm a Colts fan. The Packers and Seahawks are irrelevant to me outside of my enjoyment of the game of football. What went down last night hurts the credibility of the game.
I agree with your point that the refs have been scapegoats--but only to a certain extent. It seemed for a while that announcers and members of the media were adverse to criticizing players and coaches, and took to the new easy way out of lambasting the replacement officials. However, that ceases to be an easy way out when the replacement officials actually start earning that criticism with ridiculous calls.
Refs are always going to make mistakes, and given time and the nature of the game, huge ones are going to be made no matter who is reffing. It's just clear that the replacement refs are not qualified for the job. My issue isn't with people sticking up for these guys doing the best they can under the circumstances and citing other instances of games being ruined by calls--it's writing off last night as some ho-hum "it's just going to happen" fluke. It was one of the most direct examples of refs deciding the definite result of a game.
I think it's fairly obvious they upheld the decision only because they wouldn't have a leg to stand on for the ref negotiations if they overturned it.
The official refs make plenty of mistakes, that's for sure. But for the most part they are consistent. As in other sports, the refs are not expected to be perfect, but consistent with how they make their calls. That way the players know how to adjust their play within the game. The replacement refs are not very consistent, especially on calls such as pass interference. They don't really know what the look for and they seem to call it at random almost. On one play they will let players wrestle each other to the ground and the next they will call them for next to nothing.
The NFL did say the play was called correctly, but come on, there is no way they would say anything but that. They are not going to come out and slam the decision of their replacement refs like that. What they said was all about saving face. And also trying to not give up leverage by admitting the huge mistake.
See Hinscher, the problem is that you're not arguing with me. You're arguing with pretty much everyone around pro football who actually knows what they're talking about. Bears players, Vikings players, and even a few Seahawks players are all saying this call against the Packers was entirely bogus. These people do not align themselves with Green Bay because they want to. I have yet to see even one notable person without an ulterior motive argue that the call was correct. Not. One.
Hell, the Seattle Times polled their reader base about what they thought of the play. 84% of the 13,000 responses believe it was an interception. SEATTLE.
The NFL came out and backed the decision, and showed proof why they backed it and had laws and everything showing frame by frame the play and mutliple angles. So the NFL is for the call, its only butthurt players, fans and announcers that are making a huge deal out of it.
The NFL has absolutely no choice in the matter. They're in the middle of a labor dispute with the actual officials and need to do whatever they can to maintain any hint of leverage that they can manage. But hey, three people said that before me. Guess it's a pretty good argument.
@Raging:
The official refs make plenty of mistakes, that's for sure. But for the most part they are consistent. As in other sports, the refs are not expected to be perfect, but consistent with how they make their calls. That way the players know how to adjust their play within the game. The replacement refs are not very consistent, especially on calls such as pass interference. They don't really know what the look for and they seem to call it at random almost. On one play they will let players wrestle each other to the ground and the next they will call them for next to nothing.
That's a good point and one of the issues that bothers me the most. There are certain things with actual NFL refs that irritate me, but at the very least I can usually rely on a consistent style of calling during a game. Within a matter of a series or two, players can realize that a game is being called tightly or liberally in terms of physicality, and that usually does not change from the first to fourth quarter. The replacement refs have been struggling to decide how they want to call a game, and this results in plodding messes like the Den/Atl meeting.
See Hinscher, the problem is that you're not arguing with me. You're arguing with pretty much everyone around pro football who actually knows what they're talking about. Bears players, Vikings players, and even a few Seahawks players are all saying this call against the Packers was entirely bogus. These people do not align themselves with Green Bay because they want to. I have yet to see even one notable person without an ulterior motive argue that the call was correct. Not. One.
They want everyone to hate on the refs so they can hate on them later and/or now for any calls in their own game that they want. They want to bully these sub ref's. Do bears players, viking players, lions players want the call to be reversed and packers get a win? Hell no, they are glad the packers lost no matter how they lost. They are in it for one reason to make playoffs, and make money.
Since they know there is 0% chance that the game is going to be overruled and given a packer win, of course they are going to say packers should have won. They don't want to look like dicks. But if tomorrow the NFL flips the result and gives the win to the Packers you can bet there will be an even bigger amount of bitching going on.
But if tomorrow the NFL flips the result and gives the win to the Packers you can bet there will be an even bigger amount of bitching going on.
Yeah, this wouldn't happen at all.
They want everyone to hate on the refs so they can hate on them later and/or now for any calls in their own game that they want. They want to bully these sub ref's. Do bears players, viking players, lions players want the call to be reversed and packers get a win? Hell no, they are glad the packers lost no matter how they lost.
You do realize I said Seahawks players, right? You do realize how monumentally stupid it would be for them to say that GB got robbed if they didn't believe it, right? It's basically admission that they can't complain if they get screwed out of a game later. And that says nothing about all of the former players/coaches/GM's/refs that universally and unequivocally agree. Hell, even over 80% of the city of Seattle agrees. Think about that for a minute.
Sorry, but your agenda here is crystal clear. You're a Vikings fan and you just want to hate on the Packers.
They are in it for one reason to make playoffs, and make money.
Wow, that's one hell of a reason.
You do realize I said Seahawks players, right? You do realize how monumentally stupid it would be for them to say that GB got robbed if they didn't believe it, right? It's basically admission that they can't complain if they get screwed out of a game later. And that says nothing about all of the former players/coaches/GM's/refs that universally and unequivocally agree. Hell, even over 80% of the city of Seattle agrees. Think about that for a minute.
Sorry, but your agenda here is crystal clear. You're a Vikings fan and you just want to hate on the Packers.
Wow, that's one hell of a reason.
Of course Seahawks players are going to say what the entire america is saying. Do you think they want people to start hating them.
taking anybody's word on this right now is just stupid. If you want to see what everyone truly thinks you would need to see how they would react to the game being changed to Packers winning. Then you will see who really is a "good" person or just someone saying what "fans" want to hear without worry of any change.
Look at every athlete in the history of any sport. Do they ever come out and say "hey ref I just fouled that guy" or "ref I was out of bounds" "ref, ect" Hell no. They shut their trap and thank god that they didn't get called for the foul. Now after the game they may admit that what htey did was wrong, BUT where were they when it happened when something could have been done. Saying you did something wrong when there are no consiquences is bullshit. Do you feel like a criminal is a saint because he starts rating people out when the DA gives him immunity?
The Seahawks have this game won, there is absolutely nothing that will change that. Not even the president of the united states of america can make it so the Packers now won the game. Thus I don't give any person any credit on their "honest" feelings over what truly went down in the game. They are all hiding behind immunity. Do you honestly think a single person in the entire NFL would want a games outcome to be changed after the game was finished? Hell no. Can you imagine the insane uproar there would be if the outcome of a game was changed a day later. It would leave the door open for teams and coaches to demand all future games to be changed too. If they change this call, then would they not be forced to change any call any coach brings forth showing a miscall on tape? They can't show favoritism or prejudice.
Just so you know the play was reviewed by a professional and NOT a sub ref, during the final moments. The "27 year veteran ref" that they had guest speak at the end of the game regarding the decision was wrong about the review not able to review the simultanious catch. There actually was a real payed professional guy who does this same thing when the "real" ref's are there who looked at the replay and he decided that the call stands.
So we can bitch all we want over if its right or not. Our opinions don't matter. The game is over, the seahawks won, the play was called a simultaneous catch by a true replayer at the time and was also stated the same by the nfl. Any arguing is just pointless, its on to week 4.
Good luck Packers. Your going to have a hell of a week preparing for a game with all this controversy going on. I have a feeling they are going to get killed due to this. Though Drew Brees seems to be a non-stop bitching about the ref's since week 1 so he might be distracted enough this week too.
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The NFL has absolutely no choice in the matter. They're in the middle of a labor dispute with the actual officials and need to do whatever they can to maintain any hint of leverage that they can manage. But hey, three people said that before me. Guess it's a pretty good argument.
You know what i have said in many of my earlier posts?
I talked about the actual game and how packers played like shit, and there was 8 sacks in the first half. Also about how there were bad calls earlier that lead to a packer touchdown.
But what do you and all of the media do? you ignore the game and only center on this one play.
That's what I am hating about this season. Seems half the post game talk of every game and every week is only about what the ref's did or didn't.
The vikings beat either the best team in the league or the most over-rated team in teh league this week. They played amazing. But what was the biggest talk of the game? Some of the calls the refs made at the end and the 49er's coach getting multiple extra timeouts by abusing and bullying the ref's. Again ignoring the whole game and only concentrating on these ref's. I'm pretty sure its cause the media is on the ref's side and wants to make these "GREEDY OWNER'S" give in to all their demands. Where is the media whenever a team is wanting to bulid a new stadium? They are yelling at us citizens to get taxed more so we can buy our team a stadium. How come they aren't saying these "greedy owners" need to buy their own stadium. How come we have to foot the bill in this case. If these owners are so rich, why do they need money from us 99% as the media loves to label us.
Of course Seahawks players are going to say what the entire america is saying. Do you think they want people to start hating them.
There is a reason so many people are saying GB got robbed. You can believe it is all just fake sentiment because people don't want to be jerks, or you can accept the simpler reason that, you know, it's because it was pretty obvious that that shouldn't have been a touchdown.
taking anybody's word on this right now is just stupid. If you want to see what everyone truly thinks you would need to see how they would react to the game being changed to Packers winning. Then you will see who really is a "good" person or just someone saying what "fans" want to hear without worry of any change.
Maybe division rivals are happy about the outcome only because of it meaning GB gets a loss, but even people who are happy to see them lose agree that it was a crappy call. That's the point. It isn't about which team lost and which team won or about people wanting the decision reversed by the league. It's about the fact that the game was put in the hands of the replacement refs and they screwed up. Their decision directly caused the wrong team to win.
Look at every athlete in the history of any sport. Do they ever come out and say "hey ref I just fouled that guy" or "ref I was out of bounds" "ref, ect" Hell no. They shut their trap and thank god that they didn't get called for the foul. Now after the game they may admit that what htey did was wrong, BUT where were they when it happened when something could have been done. Saying you did something wrong when there are no consiquences is bullshit. Do you feel like a criminal is a saint because he starts rating people out when the DA gives him immunity?
Why are you making this into a good person/evil person thing? Urouge isn't using the Seattle admissions as evidence of their sainthood. You yourself say that players are not prone to admit their wrong after the game if it went their way. That should make the fact that these people ARE doing that a pretty good clue as to how obvious it is that the call was wrong.
The Seahawks have this game won, there is absolutely nothing that will change that. Not even the president of the united states of america can make it so the Packers now won the game. Thus I don't give any person any credit on their "honest" feelings over what truly went down in the game. They are all hiding behind immunity. Do you honestly think a single person in the entire NFL would want a games outcome to be changed after the game was finished? Hell no. Can you imagine the insane uproar there would be if the outcome of a game was changed a day later. It would leave the door open for teams and coaches to demand all future games to be changed too. If they change this call, then would they not be forced to change any call any coach brings forth showing a miscall on tape? They can't show favoritism or prejudice.
Again, it isn't about wanting the game to actually be made a GB win NOW. It is that it was ever called a loss for them in the first place that is the tragedy. It should have been their win there at the end of the game. Nobody expected the outcome to be changed.
Just so you know the play was reviewed by a professional and NOT a sub ref, during the final moments. The "27 year veteran ref" that they had guest speak at the end of the game regarding the decision was wrong about the review not able to review the simultanious catch. There actually was a real payed professional guy who does this same thing when the "real" ref's are there who looked at the replay and he decided that the call stands.
He decided that they didn't have evidence enough to change the ruling on the field. The ruling on the field was wrong. The replay official either couldn't see well enough in the replay in his opinion or he was limited by rules or whatever… the fact remains that they got that wrong too. Even if he wasn't one of the replacements, so what? Just means there was a lot of importance on the ruling on the field. So often with the challenges, what was initially ruled on the field means everything.
So we can bitch all we want over if its right or not. Our opinions don't matter. The game is over, the seahawks won, the play was called a simultaneous catch by a true replayer at the time and was also stated the same by the nfl. Any arguing is just pointless, its on to week 4.
Yeah we can't change anything, but that doesn't mean it wasn't wrong and that it wasn't significant. Don't put too much stock in the "official" ruling the NFL gave. They have their own agenda behind what they said.
You know what i have said in many of my earlier posts?
I talked about the actual game and how packers played like shit, and there was 8 sacks in the first half. Also about how there were bad calls earlier that lead to a packer touchdown.
But what do you and all of the media do? you ignore the game and only center on this one play.
That one play, that one call, is the focus because it directly decided the winner of the game. There were other bad calls to be sure. Which just makes the case against the replacements that much stronger.
The vikings beat either the best team in the league or the most over-rated team in teh league this week. They played amazing. But what was the biggest talk of the game? Some of the calls the refs made at the end and the 49er's coach getting multiple extra timeouts by abusing and bullying the ref's. Again ignoring the whole game and only concentrating on these ref's. I'm pretty sure its cause the media is on the ref's side and wants to make these "GREEDY OWNER'S" give in to all their demands. Where is the media whenever a team is wanting to bulid a new stadium? They are yelling at us citizens to get taxed more so we can buy our team a stadium. How come they aren't saying these "greedy owners" need to buy their own stadium. How come we have to foot the bill in this case. If these owners are so rich, why do they need money from us 99% as the media loves to label us.
Yeah you are definitely just sounding like a Packer hater who is tired of hearing your rival fans complain.
@Raging:
Yeah you are definitely just sounding like a Packer hater who is tired of hearing your rival fans complain.
I'm tired of hearing about it yes.
Its on the news, of every channel, its 75% of every show on espn's discussion. They are not talking about anything else. It's like there wasn't 15 other games this week.
I don't give a shit if the call was correct or not. The call was made and there was not proof enough to over-turn the call. That's all I need to know. Doesn't matter if it looks more like an interception. There wasn't enough to overturn it.
It's like half the comments on facebook, the president even commented on it, meaning more news stations and papers needed to comment about that. It's horrible.
It's one game. It's one bad ref call. Its not the end of the world. There have been bad ref calls since forever, there have been super bowls arguably lost due to bad calls. Hell the seahawks were victoms to that even.
But is this about just one bad call? No its about them all having an easy scape goat, the replacement ref's. The packers don't have to discuss what went wrong this week. They don't have to face their fan's going wtf was with our offense. Why does our team look like shit this year, why, why, why. Right now they are sitting there going "its the ref's fault" I don't like them or anyone else hiding behind these referees.
It's an age old saying that you should not let yourself be put in a situation where a referee's one call can decide a game. This wasn't some amazingly played game that was going back and forth and both teams played amazing and came down to the wire. No it was some very pathetic play by the packers. The Packers were on the road and were the clear favorite, but watching the game it didn't look anythign like that. But is anybody talking about the Packers and how far they seemed to have fallen this year compared to last year. where is their offense that was so overpowering in prior years. How come Rogers isn't leading up the fantasy football every week like he seemed to be for years running. Something is wrong in Green-Bay and its not the refs. But nobody is looking at that because they are blinded by these referees.
What do I have to be pissed about. For a vikings fan, this week was great. The Vikings either beat what everyone thought was the best team in the league, the 49'ers, or they beat the most overated team in the league. Then not only did the Packers lose this week, regardless of how it came to be, but so did the Lions. And lets not forget the hated Saints who beat the Vikings a couple years ago in the NFC championship starting the season 0-3. And I guess this whole fiasco with the ref's will keep the Packer's mind off of getting ready for next weeks game and might end in another loss. Just means I have to resort to not watching or looking at anything sports related this week, since it will be about ONLY this. It feels like Tim Tebow all over again.
So tell me, what would I be upset about? Nothing is changing this outcome, so the packer fans can complain all they want. I'm just sick of hearing nothing BUT complaining about that and these ref's. I want to hear something NEW, something ELSE. ANYTHING will do. And no it would not have to be about the Vikings. They never talk about the Vikings, so why would I expect them to now. Hell the Vikings winning against the Jaguars week 1 was supposedly a huge upset. Not sure how, I never thought the Jaguars were supposed to be any good.
Well I agree that ESPN is doing what they do best by over exposing us to this story. They got huge ratings for their sportscenter following the game and with all the attention it is getting in other newscasts they will be sure to milk it for all they can. I hate that too. Tebow, Favre, the Lebron stuff, Dwight Howard stuff, Barry Bonds back in the day… yeah they take it way too far, that's for sure.
I agree that it isn't the refs fault that GB played bad all game. The Packers have definitely been underwhelming this year and they didn't play a great game against the Seahawks. But they did play just enough to get ahead at the end of the game when they needed to. And it came down to that call. But yes, they did have all the rest of the game to not let it come to that.
It isn't the first or last bad call, by replacement ref or by official ref or whoever. There will always be calls that some don't agree on. But this incident was the final straw that got America calling for the real refs to be back asap.
I hope they are back soon.
There will still be bad calls, maybe even game changing ones. But certainly not at the frequency we are now seeing. The real refs need to be back to give us the consistency these replacements can't give.
The story isn't about these two teams at all to me. It is about this being the biggest indicator yet as to how much the NFL needs to take care of business and get the real refs back.
Maybe the thing that is pissed me off the most is how much everyone wants these real referee's back. While yes if they are better i want them back too, but I'm pissed at them for striking and figure these replacement referee's have to get better sooner or later. The "real" referee's were rookies at some point too, everyone talks about them like they are some specialized referee that has been training to be a ref since birth, heck was probably even bred to be a referee. Meanwhile these temp referee's are just guys they found off the street that volunteered for the job.
Pretty sure these ref's are like D2 or D3 college referees or something. There was some stupid ass contract/rule thing preventing any higher qualified referee's from participating so they had to find lesser qualified. That alone should be more of a discussion than how bad these guys are. When you are telling higher qualified people that you can't let them, then you shoudl not be bitching when your lower qualified people are not doing as good a job.
I'm fricken sick and tired of every damn athlete, league, ect striking for some damn thing or another. Referee's are getting what 150,000 a year to ref these games on average. I'm sorry that I don't feel like they have any need to strike.
I apologize in advance for the length of this one.
Of course Seahawks players are going to say what the entire america is saying. Do you think they want people to start hating them.
Pete Carroll, Golden Tate, and Russell Wilson don't seem to mind.
You're pretty much just saying a bunch of random stuff at this point. You also seem singularly focused on the success of the Packers and Vikings, wanting the Packers to be viewed as bad and the Vikings to be viewed as good. But recognition of a team shouldn't mean jack to their success. You really need to take the blinders off and notice that the stakes here are far bigger than that.
The quote that resonated with me the most this week came from a major anonymous source in the NFL league office per Chris Mortenson of ESPN (who you'd be a fool to think a journalist as respected as him was lying). It basically stated that the NFL has slowly developed a golden thread of integrity over its lifetime that has become the pure, ideal standard of all athletic leagues in this country. The bad officiating through the first few weeks was fraying that thread, and with the end of the Monday night game it finally snapped. No sport with judgment calls will be without controversy, but before this season nobody ever viewed the system to be inherently unfair.
What made the replacement refs so bad through the first couple weeks was simply inconsistency. These are officials who were fired from unknown leagues due to bad performance. A defensive back could defend a receiver perfectly without even touching him on one play and still get called for pass interference. Then on the next play he could downright tackle the same receiver 15 yards downfield without the ball and have it go entirely ignored. The message that it sent to teams was basically "do whatever the fuck you want, because it won't change the chances of a penalty being called against you." Calling early penalties to get control of the game doesn't really work unless they're being called properly or at least consistently. The most blatant and egregious mistakes become the poster examples used to portray the overall problem. These are indefensible problems like a team getting an extra timeout, or penalty yardage being enforced improperly. The one saving grace was that there didn't appear to be any sort of bias to it, so no matter how ugly of an obstacle it was turning out to be, every team had to deal with it all the same. Still, there was always a sense that the situation was perched squarely on the brink of disaster, and it was only a matter of time before the wind blew the wrong way.
That disaster finally occurred Monday night this week. Supporters can argue that the outcome may be the same if the regular officials had been there, but that's missing the point entirely. What the entire nation saw in prime time was the outcome of a game being unquestionably decided by a call that nearly everyone agrees was wrong. This would have been a big deal with anyone officiating. But when the officials were already considered inept before it ever happened, it became monumental. It's not about who it happened to or what the circumstances were. It's about destroying the trust the fans have that the outcome of the games will be determined by the players on the field. This is a trust that, before this year, was unmatched in all of sports. That doesn't mean it was always perfect before this year, but rather just that it was always good enough. Controversy is fine as long as the officiating is mostly consistent and unbiased at its core.
How important is integrity? Boxing is probably the best example to portray it. 20 years ago when Mike Tyson was the heavyweight champion, boxing was immensely popular. Then the integrity of the sport began taking hit after hit, namely with the officiating of it. Now? Can you even name the current heavyweight champion? Middleweight? Lightweight? I know I can't, and that's just sad. The sport has absolutely plummeted as a result.
NFL player safety has obviously been affected as well. Players being unconvinced that their actions changed their chances of getting flagged have resulted in them doing more and more things that are deemed unsafe which the league has been cracking down on for years. The two things Roger Goodell has preached since he took over as commissioner have been integrity and player safety. It's hard to imagine that the black eye these officials have landed on those ideals could look uglier right now.
Look, this is not about the fact that the Packers lost (I PICKED them to lose, ffs). It's not about wanting the ruling to be overturned the following day or whatever, because frankly that wouldn't be any better. It's about the fact that it happened at all, to anybody. I've felt uncomfortable arguing about this because it's the Packers and it hits close to home, but I've tried my damnedest to remain impartial about it and not whine. Take me and killerbee1000, for example. We are rival fans in what could be considered the biggest and oldest rivalry in the NFL. I hate the Bears, and I love to make fun of and hate Cutler, because he's their QB. That does not mean that I'd ever want to see them lose a game like this, nor would I ever wish injury on any of them. I want them to lose fair and square, and at full strength, and I believe he feels the same exact way about the Packers. That's how it should be.
Maybe the thing that is pissed me off the most is how much everyone wants these real referee's back. While yes if they are better i want them back too, but I'm pissed at them for striking
They aren't striking. It's a lock out.
I apologize in advance for the length of this one.
Pete Carroll, Golden Tate, and Russell Wilson don't seem to mind.
You're pretty much just saying a bunch of random stuff at this point. You also seem singularly focused on the success of the Packers and Vikings, wanting the Packers to be viewed as bad and the Vikings to be viewed as good. But recognition of a team shouldn't mean jack to their success. You really need to take the blinders off and notice that the stakes here are far bigger than that.
The quote that resonated with me the most this week came from a major anonymous source in the NFL league office per Chris Mortenson of ESPN (who you'd be a fool to think a journalist as respected as him was lying). It basically stated that the NFL has slowly developed a golden thread of integrity over its lifetime that has become the pure, ideal standard of all athletic leagues in this country. The bad officiating through the first few weeks was fraying that thread, and with the end of the Monday night game it finally snapped. No sport with judgment calls will be without controversy, but before this season nobody ever viewed the system to be inherently unfair.
What made the replacement refs so bad through the first couple weeks was simply inconsistency. These are officials who were fired from unknown leagues due to bad performance. A defensive back could defend a receiver perfectly without even touching him on one play and still get called for pass interference. Then on the next play he could downright tackle the same receiver 15 yards downfield without the ball and have it go entirely ignored. The message that it sent to teams was basically "do whatever the fuck you want, because it won't change the chances of a penalty being called against you." Calling early penalties to get control of the game doesn't really work unless they're being called properly or at least consistently. The most blatant and egregious mistakes become the poster examples used to portray the overall problem. These are indefensible problems like a team getting an extra timeout, or penalty yardage being enforced improperly. The one saving grace was that there didn't appear to be any sort of bias to it, so no matter how ugly of an obstacle it was turning out to be, every team had to deal with it all the same. Still, there was always a sense that the situation was perched squarely on the brink of disaster, and it was only a matter of time before the wind blew the wrong way.
That disaster finally occurred Monday night this week. Supporters can argue that the outcome may be the same if the regular officials had been there, but that's missing the point entirely. What the entire nation saw in prime time was the outcome of a game being unquestionably decided by a call that nearly everyone agrees was wrong. This would have been a big deal with anyone officiating. But when the officials were already considered inept before it ever happened, it became monumental. It's not about who it happened to or what the circumstances were. It's about destroying the trust the fans have that the outcome of the games will be determined by the players on the field. This is a trust that, before this year, was unmatched in all of sports. That doesn't mean it was always perfect before this year, but rather just that it was always good enough. Controversy is fine as long as the officiating is mostly consistent and unbiased at its core.
How important is integrity? Boxing is probably the best example to portray it. 20 years ago when Mike Tyson was the heavyweight champion, boxing was immensely popular. Then the integrity of the sport began taking hit after hit, namely with the officiating of it. Now? Can you even name the current heavyweight champion? Middleweight? Lightweight? I know I can't, and that's just sad. The sport has absolutely plummeted as a result.
NFL player safety has obviously been affected as well. Players being unconvinced that their actions changed their chances of getting flagged have resulted in them doing more and more things that are deemed unsafe which the league has been cracking down on for years. The two things Roger Goodell has preached since he took over as commissioner have been integrity and player safety. It's hard to imagine that the black eye these officials have landed on those ideals could look uglier right now.
Look, this is not about the fact that the Packers lost (I PICKED them to lose, ffs). It's not about wanting the ruling to be overturned the following day or whatever, because frankly that wouldn't be any better. It's about the fact that it happened at all, to anybody. I've felt uncomfortable arguing about this because it's the Packers and it hits close to home, but I've tried my damnedest to remain impartial about it and not whine. Take me and killerbee1000, for example. We are rival fans in what could be considered the biggest and oldest rivalry in the NFL. I hate the Bears, and I love to make fun of and hate Cutler, because he's their QB. That does not mean that I'd ever want to see them lose a game like this, nor would I ever wish injury on any of them. I want them to lose fair and square, and at full strength, and I believe he feels the same exact way about the Packers. That's how it should be.
And whose fault is it that we have these underqualified referee's.
There were rules that prohibited the league from acquiring referees from division 1 football or other reputable sources.
Then on to the real referee's again. Reffing what at most 20 games couting playoffs and they make 150,000 a year. They only have to work one day a week.
These replacement referee's are not the ones that are tarnishing the leagues emblem or whatever the hell they want to call it. The league did that themselves and the referee's. They are the ones who went on strike, the league is the one who put in rules that forced them to hire these third rate referees. Blaming the referees that THEY hired is bullshit.
I'm mad because of two reasons. One they are ignoring all other things that are happening, whether its a team playing bad or good, its only about the referees. AND number 2 they are blaming only the referees and not how the referee situation came about. They are not blaming the real referees for "locking out" or blaming the rules that forced the league to hire third rate replacements. No its only about the bad replacement referees and the "greedy owners" for not getting them back on the field.
It's always about some greedy owner not paying someone enough. At least the referees only make 150,000 a year. Boy is it annoying when you have these players that make 10+ million a year being a figurehead for the players union on strike. hard to feel sorry for them. The only good thing is that somehow 90% of them end up broke basically a year after they retire. Man they are dumbasses when it comes to money.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Steven:
They aren't striking. It's a lock out.
strike lock out, whatever its the same end result. The referees are not going to work