Sabo might have been crafty, but there was no way he could steal the Cerberus Fruit from Dadan.
Chapter 588 "Sabo's Ocean" Discussion
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Sabo was smart, it's strange that he would try to escape in front of the whole town exactly the day and time when he knows the tenryublabla will arrive. Looks like he planned the whole thing, he wanted everybody to think he died in this event so his parents would not try to get him back.
Nope. He was shocked by being attacked.
No body = no death. -
You cross the S in "Sabo", to remove it, then put a mirror in front of the word, and what do you get?
"Sabo" => the "S" is crossed (we could make an X over it, for example) leaving "Abo" => use a mirror: "Abo | odA" => Resulting in "Oda"!!
I like the theory too.
Especially if you think of Sabo's dream "write a story about his journey around the world".
Nicest theory in AP-history!
isrnick ftw! -
Nope. He was shocked by being attacked.
No body = no death.The shocked look was part of the act ;).
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He's dead guys. Don't overthink this stuff.
They cleared the wreckage, they didn't find a body. He's not gonna miraculously survive.
His body proly washed up days after.
It's not like Oda at all to suddenly bring in a new character in a flashback and then let them reappear in the main story again.
Either way this chapter rly made me bust a nut… and I let out a tear or 20. ;_;
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I find it funny how people sometimes bring up the "Oda does not kill people" defense as "proof" that Sabo survived, when we all know the mortality rate in flashbacks has always been high. If we are going just by previous experiences, there's a very high chance that any character dying while the page borders are black will stay dead.
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He's dead guys. Don't overthink this stuff.
They cleared the wreckage, they didn't find a body. He's not gonna miraculously survive.
His body proly washed up days after.
It's not like Oda at all to suddenly bring in a new character in a flashback and then let them reappear in the main story again.
Either way this chapter rly made me bust a nut… and I let out a tear or 20. ;_;
Lol what? Didn't think it was that kind of chapter.
Anyway, until there's actual proof that Sabo is dead, then there's always the chance he survived. There's no definate situation.
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Bitch faked his own death.
Now he can finally be free. -
I find it funny how people sometimes bring up the "Oda does not kill people" defense as "proof" that Sabo survived, when we all know the mortality rate in flashbacks has always been high. If we are going just by previous experiences, there's a very high chance that any character dying while the page borders are black will stay dead.
While it is true that the mortal rate for flashbacks is high and always works without confirmation I consider Sabo a special case for the sole fact that his death is practically something that works in his advantage since it would break him lose of his chains. In other words, if everybody believes that he's dead, he would be free to do whatever he wants to do (if he'd still be alive) which would definitely be a fitting scenario for a character like him.
So flashback character or not, for Sabo I'd require a little bit more of a confirmation of his death than just this.
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Sabo = Killer from Kids crew
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While it is true that the mortal rate for flashbacks is high and always works without confirmation I consider Sabo a special case for the sole fact that his death is practically something that works in his advantage since it would break him lose of his chains. In other words, if everybody believes that he's dead, he would be free to do whatever he wants to do (if he'd still be alive) which would definitely be a fitting scenario for a character like him.
I see your point and I admit his death lacked the big emotional response deaths in flashbacks often have (his post-mortem letter was the touching part of the chapter IMO). There's a chance that he's alive indeed.
However, my message was more towards the ones who don't consider him dead at all. I think we all need to acknowledge both possibilities, instead of just dismissing the most obvious one (Sabo is dead).
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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I see your point and I admit his death lacked the big emotional response deaths in flashbacks often have (his post-mortem letter was the touching part of the chapter IMO). There's a chance that he's alive indeed.
However, my message was more towards the ones who don't consider him dead at all. I think we all need to acknowledge both possibilities, instead of just dismissing the most obvious one (Sabo is dead).
Hear hear! This has been my position from way back in the spoiler thread, along with the idea that as long as we think there's a possibility either way, then speculation involving either case is legitimate, as well.
Let's finally get it right! Sabo = Schrodinger's cat
(at least until the box is opened, lol)
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I see your point and I admit his death lacked the big emotional response deaths in flashbacks often have (his post-mortem letter was the touching part of the chapter IMO). There's a chance that he's alive indeed.
However, my message was more towards the ones who don't consider him dead at all. I think we all need to acknowledge both possibilities, instead of just dismissing the most obvious one (Sabo is dead).
Agreed.
Sabo's death left so ambiguous, that most reasonable theories about his fate cannot be discounted.
However, as I have already pointed it out, I don't believe Oda is done with the events of this flashback. He will either continue the flashback in the next chapter or we will revisit some of the characters in the future.
Again, the two reasons I believe this is because:
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Oda hid the king of High Town's face, on two different occasions during this flashback
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The audience has been told several times that a Celestial Dragon coming down from Heaven (Mariejois) to come to the Goa Kingdom is extremely rare and I don't think Oda would center his entire flashback on this event and then leave things as they stand in this latest chapter.
Therefore, since I think the two aforementioned will be revisited, I believe you will then find out that Sabo is still alive.
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THIS.
Sabo had characterization. That's the most important point. Name me another flashback character with as much development as Sabo? Oda has put to much into this character if he created him just to die. Why would he waste chapters of developing Sabo if all he was going to do with him is kill him off? It's a waste of time! And it's bad writing. Also, then this flashback will have lost its point. Seriously, if it ends with something we already knew about, then there was no point of having it.
Another big factor is that this flashback has focused more on events Luffy had no knowledge about. Yes, this was cued by Luffy, but how would he have known what all went down in high town. The fact that this has our beloved narrator in a large part of it separates it from all other flashbacks.
And honestly, why do you people think Dragon was there in the first place? Was he just hangin around town for the helluvit, shootin' the shit? No, he knew the tenryuubito were coming, so of course he's gonna hang around, and we all saw the effect Sabo had on him, so I'm sure he wouldn't forget about him that easily.So can we have like a forum wide bet? The Sabo is alive camp vs the Sabo is dead camp? I'm sure you mods can think of something to wager.
I love how you quote this, agree with my point of Sabo having characterisation but then say "THIS" to Wagomu's post even though he argued that Sabo lacked characterisation making him seem like a plot device for dying. Point was that Oda made Sabo a complete character which serves to give meaning to his death, follow the discussion please.
Then you argue this silliness in bold, dude go look back on every flashback and you'll notice many with parts that the Strawhat involved wasn't around for. And even if Dragon stuck around (although the fire happened days ago and Dragon was shown leaving) he was shown nowhere around Sabo's boat to be able to save him and Sabo would still have to survive the explosion that blew the hat right off his head upon impact, implying that he hadn't the time to jump off the ship.
@Zik
An explosion like that would've left one wrecked corpse so again I bring up the question of whether it's Oda trying to give us the cliché "he obviously survived" situation or choosing not to depict a charred mangled child corpse?@Mickgreen
Of course the flashback will continue because the vow that Ace and Luffy make still needs to happen, however I'll be surprised and a bit disappointed if Oda shows a Sabo who miraculously survived. There was nothing around in the scene or even foreshadowed that would give the hint that Sabo could've survived other than people insisting that this is one of those scenes where the character miraculously survives something that should've killed them. -
@I:
I'm no tactition, but it was to be a war. Everyone, even outsiders, understood the import. As far as I udnerstand it, you don't give any unecessary info about troop movements and size to the enemy in a war. That's why I figured he try to be secretive as much as possible.
That's it for me, now though. Gotta go to bed, now
What I meant is that if Whitebeard only started moving in one week from the execution and managed to arrive, the captains (who aren't being followed by the marines) could have done it much easier.
So, Whitebeard might have been planning this all the time, but the fact is that even if he didn't plan it before, they could have all managed to save Ace in timeSo its not as "Impressive" as you first said in the beginning of your argument
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I bring up the question of whether it's Oda trying to give us the cliché "he obviously survived" situation or choosing not to depict a charred mangled child corpse?
I just can't buy the argument that Oda is holding back from showing something too grotesque for his audience.. Oda could have done this is a variety of ways that would not involve a charred, mangled corpse. Even a hand sticking out of pile of rubble on the wharf would suffice, (and further hammer home, although it's so not necessary, how insignificant he is to those in this town and the celestial dragon) or some sort of funeral seen from afar. Not to say he won't choose to do so in the next chapter or even in a future one.
There have been a number of things in this manga recently that are hardly appropriate for "little boys," as someone called them. I doubt very strongly that Oda is thinking his readers are incapable of taking in the death of a 10 year old if it's made more clear than it has been thus far.
What I meant is that if Whitebeard only started moving in one week from the execution and managed to arrive, the captains (who aren't being followed by the marines) could have done it much easier.
So, Whitebeard might have been planning this all the time, but the fact is that even if he didn't plan it before, they could have all managed to save Ace in timeSo its not as "Impressive" as you first said in the beginning of your argument
This very much depends on his exact location before he started moving–which is, as far as I know, unknown to us readers at this time.
And it wasn't really an argument--more of a question that in the end Brennen.exe answered for me. (Thank you)
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Yeah Sabo is Law…
OK I admit that this "death" unfinished... Now we have to wait if the flashback will tell us something else about it or not... If not he may be alive... but really than Oda will have a good explanation for it.
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like 18 hours later you guys are still arguing over if sabo is dead or not?
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Why would Oda have made it look so ambiguous if he was really dead?
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Why would Oda have made it look so ambiguous if he was really dead?
Could be a variety of reasons either way, but there's still at least one more chapter in this f/b, so he could tie things up next chapter.
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I really don't know what to think of this chapter.
I really wanted to give more of a shit about Sabo
buttcheeks
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@I:
Could be a variety of reasons either way, but there's still at least one more chapter in this f/b, so he could tie things up next chapter.
the most suspicious thing is law playing with the strawhat as if he had memories about it
but i also agree thay Sabo is Kaidou -
@The:
I really don't know what to think of this chapter.
I really wanted to give more of a shit about Sabo
I really want to know why people want Oda to start pulling these done to death, M. Night Shymalan type twists.
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what did you guys seriously think while reading this? I for one felt super sad and was almost crying in how the happy cheerful sabo is finallly free and then killed and then the emotional letter and Ace's crying the end.
now tell me how you would feel if say next chapter we see in current time Sabo all of a sudden. woudln't it feel kind of like a "gotcha, you thougt i was dead" and a total ass move that ruins the whole tearful scene. Why show us this death scene now. If Sabo was alive, why not show this flashback after we meet him tos how his history and who he is.
now i'm not against this type of story and sabo living, but the order is wrong. It either needs to happen present time, and later we find him alive, or it needs ot be we find him and then this flashback. Doing this flashback and then later finding out he is alive is totally the wrong way to do it
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what did you guys seriously think while reading this? I for one felt super sad and was almost crying in how the happy cheerful sabo is finallly free and then killed and then the emotional letter and Ace's crying the end.
now tell me how you would feel if say next chapter we see in current time Sabo all of a sudden. woudln't it feel kind of like a "gotcha, you thougt i was dead" and a total ass move that ruins the whole tearful scene. Why show us this death scene now. If Sabo was alive, why not show this flashback after we meet him tos how his history and who he is.
now i'm not against this type of story and sabo living, but the order is wrong. It either needs to happen present time, and later we find him alive, or it needs ot be we find him and then this flashback. Doing this flashback and then later finding out he is alive is totally the wrong way to do it
Well it would be wrong if he is still a free person but never found the time to meet Ace and Luffy to say he is alive.
no.he was too young
Thank you
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I really want to know why people want Oda to start pulling these done to death, M. Night Shymalan type twists.
It's not that, I don't think he was given enough development for me to take his death(?) seriously
On the other hand, this flashback actually made me like Ace a whole lot more. I never understood why people gave so much of s hit about him even before his death. This flashback is some pretty good justification though.
buttcheeks
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@The:
It's not that, I don't think he was given enough development for me to take his death(?) seriously
On the other hand, this flashback actually made me like Ace a whole lot more. I never understood why people gave so much of s hit about him even before his death. This flashback is some pretty good justification though.
Well like I said… I doubt the flashback is over...
Yeah me too. Ace got my respect back after this flashback.
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Well like I said… I doubt the flashback is over...
Of course the flashback is not over. If that is not clear by the sole fact that flashback don't abrumptly neither conclude at the end of a chapter but rather come with transition panels that connect them to the current timeline in one and the same chapter then just for the simple fact that we've still not seen Ace and Luffy making the promise to live a life with more freedom then anybody else in this world.
That should happen next chapter though and then it should be back to the current timeline.
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Of course the flashback is not over. If that is not clear by the sole fact that flashback don't abrumptly neither conclude at the end of a chapter but rather come with transition panels that connect them to the current timeline in one and the same chapter then just for the simple fact that we've still not seen Ace and Luffy making the promise to live a life with more freedom then anybody else in this world.
That's why people should stop saying the whole Sabo stuff haven't feel right if it isn't over
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@The:
It's not that, I don't think he was given enough development for me to take his death(?) seriously
On the other hand, this flashback actually made me like Ace a whole lot more. I never understood why people gave so much of s hit about him even before his death. This flashback is some pretty good justification though.
Naw that wasn't aimed at you, I was just using your line to launch into that little side rant.
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I don't think Sabo is going to get a lot more development. What Oda wanted to show was that Sabo was as strong as Ace back then, he was a suprising third brother to Luffy and Ace and would sacrifice his happiness to keep them alive, and he was a victim of a noble family (a corrupt society) so represents freedom (which has a lot to do with the void century and the gov't takeover).
What more can Oda add on Sabo? If Sabo lives he can develop the "freedom" aspect, but there's not much more Oda can add to Sabo. For a couple of chapters, I think he was developed quite well.
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@$abZ:
I don't think Sabo is going to get a lot more development. What Oda wanted to show was that Sabo was as strong as Ace back then, he was a suprising third brother to Luffy and Ace and would sacrifice his happiness to keep them alive, and he was a victim of a noble family (a corrupt society) so represents freedom (which has a lot to do with the void century and the gov't takeover).
Who's the second brother then? :wassat:
Anyways, I'll still place my bets on Sabo being alive. And if he's not with the revolution but still a pirate then I'd also place my bets on him being the famous rumoured eyepatch pirate and which I'll call "Eyepache" from this moment on.
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In Loving Memory of Toraish, Rex Avium: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40786 | 3DS Friend Code: 3196-4274-7836
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What is the point of Oda, after such a long time in the series, finally showing us a real time death to only drown it with a flashback death RIGHT after? Why even go through the trouble of declaring Sabo as a 3rd brother instead of a good friend? For character development? Ya know what…fuck that...it does't even matter.
Why would Oda set up the meeting between Sabo and Dragon and show how Dragon was truly affected by what Sabo was going through...? He could have gotten Sabo killed and cause the same effect on Ace and Luffy without all the extra shit...it just seems Oda has involved Sabo way too much for him to be killed off now.
Why would Oda create this scene to leave us guessing like this...if he wanted us to know Sabo is dead then he would give us indisputable evidence of such...unless he is going to the next chapter. We can't really argue about this until the flashback is OVER
If Oda were asked if Sabo is dead...no matter what answer he may give...we will know the truth. If Sabo was meant to be dead then he would confirm it...otherwise him not wanting to comment on that most likely means he isn't dead.
The important part is that Luffy and Ace believe he is dead...and as we can see with the chapter release...that is exactly the case.
All this talk about Sabo being dead robs this and robs that...bullshit...Sabo dying robs Ace's death and Luffy's lamentation of it...how bout' that?
The set up for this "death" is just way too easy. There is a reason Oda did it this way as oppose to just giving indisputable evidence of Sabo's death.
Given how Oda is and how he feels about death, it's all common sense that that Sabo is alive. I could be wrong...and if I am...well...that was a shitty end to such a promising character...and I do not see myself saying such words about Oda...never have...never will because I will never underestimate him.
SABO IS ALIVE!
Join the campaign! -
@I:
Let's finally get it right! Sabo = Schrodinger's cat
(at least until the box is opened, lol)
Brilliant. Though I'm afraid this may go over a large part of this forum's head.
I love how you quote this, agree with my point of Sabo having characterisation but then say "THIS" to Wagomu's post even though he argued that Sabo lacked characterisation making him seem like a plot device for dying. Point was that Oda made Sabo a complete character which serves to give meaning to his death, follow the discussion please.
The "THIS." was to it being bad writing, as I later stated in my response to you. And follow my point please, how many other flashback characters are AS developed as Sabo? How many have had the flashback really focus on them more than the main character?
Then you argue this silliness in bold, dude go look back on every flashback and you'll notice many with parts that the Strawhat involved wasn't around for. And even if Dragon stuck around (although the fire happened days ago and Dragon was shown leaving) he was shown nowhere around Sabo's boat to be able to save him and Sabo would still have to survive the explosion that blew the hat right off his head upon impact, implying that he hadn't the time to jump off the ship.
No flashback to this point has deviated this much from the one who it's about. Name me one. Please. Go ahead. Narration has been more present in this flashback alone than it has in all the others combined.
Next, Dragon was not shown leaving the kingdom, he was shown leaving trash mountain. Also, of course he wasn't in plain sight when the tenryuubito arrived. Why the hell would he be?
Then we have to take into account that dead bodies float, so somewhere someone would have had to find his body, or even pieces of it. And no they would not have floated off if the rest of the debirs didn;t float off.
And did no one here think that he might have swam away? That seems like the most likely option. He jumped into the water and swam down the beach.
As for him not having time to run, http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/584/09/
And onto the next few pages, shows that Sabo is pretty damn fast, even more so than Ace.
You also have to remember that Sabo is tough as hell. How else could he and Ace terrorize trash mountain. He's not the kind of person to just die like this.SABO IS ALIVE!
Join the campaign!Eh, I'm in.
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Sabo dying robs Ace's death and Luffy's lamentation of it…how bout' that?
how so?
this flashback death shows many of the parallels to how Ace is watchful over Luffy, how both Luffy and Ace won't let another person they love go off anymore without fully knowing if that is what they "TRULY WANT" See Luffy in regards to Robin for best example. If this Sabo thing never happened, who knows if Luffy would have not accepted Robin as wanting to leave when she said it. But no he wanted to make sure that is what she truly wanted.
How does this death take away the sadness of Luffy right now over Ace dying? It only furthers it by showing he has no family left.
whereas if Sabo was shown to be alive, it would feel like, oh yea I still have a brother left no need to be sad. Him being alive makes us think when will luffy meet him, where is he, what is he doing, ect. See we are all thinking about Sabo now, and not about Ace. Sabo being alive steals all the spotlight and attention away from Ace, while Sabo dying just further emphasizes Luffy's sadness over another of his brothers 'Ace' dying.
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So basically you've written that large moloch just as an excuse to launch a wannabe-cool trend here, eh? :ninja:
Actually no.
I took these from my earlier posts to re-iterate my arguments.
Starting a trend? Nah, not my cup of tea, just feel like expressing my belief in a campaignesque fashion…
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Flashback will end with Luffy and Ace's promise, than return to the storyline. Sabo won't be dead, I'm believing that most of his wounds will be burns related, nothing from direct impact (I doubt it was anyway).
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If this Sabo thing never happened, who knows if Luffy would have not accepted Robin as wanting to leave when she said it. But no he wanted to make sure that is what she truly wanted.
You really can't say that. It's kinda over the top to say that Sabo's "death" sparked Luffy giving a damn about people.
How does this death take away the sadness of Luffy right now over Ace dying?
This flashback is a product of Luffy lamenting over Ace, a true brother. OP followers and characters in the story have attached themselves to Ace and therefore are affected by his death as well…but for Oda to kill off another brother right after dropping the Ace bomb is just taking away from Ace and OD'ing on poor Luffy's heart.
We see how the bonds are being created between Luffy and Ace but Oda also gave us another important bond, Sabo. I love Sabo, don't get me wrong, but to kill him after setting up this brotherhood …is a bit much for a post "Ace is dead" flashback.
At least with him being alive, he can serve as some comfort for Luffy in dealing with Ace...when and if they meet.
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Sabo performed his role as a motivating influence on Luffy and Ace well enough, and it doesn't really matter if he died there or not.
Of course, it'll be interesting if he turns out to have survived that and Luffy meets him at some point in the future. I'm with all the "flip a coin", "Schroedinger's cat" people, he's in an undetermined state until evidence to the contrary comes up. And it's entirely possible that if he did die there, we'll never get more evidence than we already have, which is going make the all the people who are sure Sabo is alive a bit irritating when they're constantly expecting him to show up in the next chapter. But they'd feel completely vindicated if at some point Sabo does return, so the only way for them to really lose is for the series to end with no new appearances from Sabo.
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so luffy needs a surprise i still have a brother alive and him to help him get over ace? what about his crewmates, are they just worthless? luffy needs to get help from somebody he hasn't seen in 10 years and only was with about same time as his current crewmates.
and you can't say that this didn't affect how he reacted to robin. its a very similar almost identical situation. robin/sabo both give up what they truly want into order to keep their friends/family safe from being killed. Luffy and Ace let is sit and waited it out to see if maybe this was his happiness, and later wound up regretting it because they found out as luffy stated "he wasn't happy at all" and sabo ended up dead, but luffy and ace alive.
now in robins time, luffy doesn't accept what she says and wants to find out truly what she relaly wants. Makes his whole "you can decide to leave when your by our side" much more meaningful. If the nobles and priates weren't there, or CP9 wasn't there. This is what Luffy wants to see if they would truly do what they did without those outside influences possibly swaying decision.
