Is Haki a Technique? Should it be Translated?

Zkaiser

Zkaiser, I'm surprised to see you back down, honestly.

I was saying that I had no problem translation notes. I was sleepy.

brennen.exe

Now my question regarding your post (though i'm not sure if i understand it correctly). Why would "haki" be a technique? Doesn't it make more sense if it is a power source? I mean i can't see a connection between the prediction of attacks and a special punch that can hurt a rubberman like luffy. Or maybe you are suggesting it is a technique that can be combined with other techniques?

Tekkai, Soru, and Rankyaku are all techniques that stem from the art (or skillset, or whatever) of Rokushiki. I am suggesting that due to the context the word has been used in, that "Haki" is the root name of the art/skillset that consists of techniques depending on how you use said art/skill. It's like Karate. Karate is the name of the art form, but in Karate there are any number of different ways you can apply your body to use different techniques; all techniques are "Karate" though.

Put it this way, the Amazons used the terms wield and control in regards to Haki. Maybe it is a "power source" of sorts, or maybe just a martial art style, or something else similar to those; either way it is being referred to as the name of some sort of learned or applied ability, right? It isn't just a word in this context, and it is even emphasized with quotes, so shouldn't it be a technique by those standards?

Maybe not. Maybe it isn't. We don't know. In this context though it sure seems like it is being used as a name of a technique. At the least it is an ability of sorts, and "Haki" is what they used to refer to said ability. Doesn't that make it a name?

Demon Rin

@brennen.exe:

Tekkai, Soru, and Rankyaku are all techniques that stem from the art (or skillset, or whatever) of Rokushiki. I am suggesting that due to the context the word has been used in, that "Haki" is the root name of the art/skillset that consists of techniques depending on how you use said art/skill. It's like Karate. Karate is the name of the art form, but in Karate there are any number of different ways you can apply your body to use different techniques; all techniques are "Karate" though.

Put it this way, the Amazons used the terms wield and control in regards to Haki. Maybe it is a "power source" of sorts, or maybe just a martial art style, or something else similar to those; either way it is being referred to as the name of some sort of learned or applied ability, right? It isn't just a word in this context, and it is even emphasized with quotes, so shouldn't it be a technique by those standards?

An Art or a Skillset has to be learned. CP9 weren't born able to do the Six Forms. Koby wasn't either, he LEARNED them. So did Luffy, he flat out said he saw how CP9 did it and figured it out.
Luffy just used his Ambition on accident. He didn't even know what he did after he did it.
It's a latent Trait of a person that can be wielded for destructive effect, but it's not a power or an attack on it's own.

"Using" or "Wielding" it is just harnessing that latent part of a person and using it for other purposes. But the fact that Luffy never did ANY training or learning about it yet already HAS it means it's NOT a technique or skillset, since those things have to be learned.
Luffy just HAS it, it's a Character trait. The Technique, if it can be called that, comes in the HARNESSING of it.

@brennen.exe:

Maybe not. Maybe it isn't. We don't know. In this context though it sure seems like it is being used as a name of a technique. At the least it is an ability of sorts, and "Haki" is what they used to refer to said ability. Doesn't that make it a name?

Isn't "Akuma no Mi" the name of the Devil's Fruits? Isn't "Noryoukusha" (Ability User) what you call a person who has a Devil Fruit?

Captain Shmeckie

@Demon:

It's a latent Trait of a person that can be wielded for destructive effect, but it's not a power or an attack on it's own.

Okay, people, if you don't get it now, you don't want to get it. That's pretty much the best I've seen it broken down in this thread.

And yes, Zkaiser, how could you give up the fight!? You traitor! How shall we spin our web of theories without you, my brother?! You have failed your ~~comrades~~ nakama in arms! Now the Englishmen will surely win the day!

brennen.exe

@Demon:

An Art or a Skillset has to be learned. Luffy just used his Ambition on accident. But the fact that Luffy never did ANY training or learning about it yet already HAS it means it's NOT a technique or skillset, since those things have to be learned.

I understand what you are saying, but that is not entirely accurate. Take Karate as an example (again): in Karate you use your body to perform specific movements and actions. Any given person could accidentally perform those same actions and movements, but learning to control their body to do them every time and at will is what makes it a skill and not an accident. This would (or could) be one of those cases. That they are referring to it as something that can be learned and wielded should be proof in and of itself that it is not simply a word for ones will to dominate, but an ability, technique, or skill that can be used (in battle). Mantra was inborn to Aisa, right? Is it not still a named skill/ability? Wasn't Mantra also used with quotes to emphasize it from time to time? Shouldn't its name remain the same in every language because it is a name? How is that any different to the way it is being used here? Let's face it, we have all seen fiction use "genius" as a way of allowing a character to use a powerful technique without knowing what they even did. (In this context genius is referring to battle potential, not mental capacity).

@Demon:

Isn't "Akuma no Mi" the name of the Devil's Fruits? Isn't "Noryoukusha" (Ability User) what you call a person who has a Devil Fruit?

Again, it's not the same. My grandma's name is Noreen. She is my grandma, she is a grandma, and I call her grandma, but her NAME is Noreen. I do not translate her name in another language, but I would translate grandma. Similarly, a Devil's Fruit is a Devil's Fruit, but the name of any given Devil's Fruit is its name. We translate Devil's Fruit, but we do not translate the name of the Devil's Fruit; as an example, the Gomu Gomu no Mi. Luffy becomes a rubber human, that is what he is, but he ate the Devil's Fruit that's name was Gomu Gomu no Mi, and when Luffy uses attacks he names them Gomu Gomu no <insert attack="">. We both agree that names (for both people and attacks) should not be translated, correct?</insert>

Sesshy

I think brennen made the best point in this thread. Hatchi said "I'm pretty sure he just used "Haki" not that I know that much about it." So unless we assume Hatchi is a complete idiot that doesn't know what ambition is, it's something a bit more then that.

Demon Rin

This is FAR different than Karate, but even in Karate. If you don't know what you're doing it's NOT Karate. I could watch a movie and then copy the movie and punch and Kick people. I don't know Karate, I'm just copying a movie. Also, if someone accidentally does a Karate move, they STILL didn't do Karate, they just flailed around and got Lucky. Karate is about the whole knowing the movies and executing them. Just doing a punch or Kick that HAPPENS to be a Karate move isn't you doing Karate, it's you punching someone and COINCIDENTALLY it looks like Karate.

However, Karate is still a skill-set one learns. One's Ambition is a complete part of them. Luffy harnessing it on accident shows that.
HARNESSING one's Ambition and using it for destructive Effect is the technique, but Ambition is just a trait of his.

Why is it so hard for you people to believe that in a Series with such high importance on Dreams, that The drive to achieve those dreams can be used against one's foes?

But also, what Makes "Akuma no Mi" any more special than "Haki" that IT gets to be translated?! It's the Name of something too. It's a proper noun.

I'll tell you what, Because Kaizoku Fansubs has translated it from the beginning, You people are USED to seeing "Devil Fruit" so THAT is ok with you. Meanwhile, they didn't translate stuff like "Nakama", you're also used to THAT, so I get people arguing that Nakama wa untoransurataburu warudo desu.

And people need to stop going "Gomu Gomu no Mi" like that's the way it should be. If you wana leave the "Gomu Gomu" part in Japanese, Fine. But leaving "no Mi" when you translate "Devil Fruit" is just…. ugh... why can't you just put "Gomu Gomu Fruit"?

Ao Kiji

Someone please LOCK this thread…

Sesshy

This post is deleted!

eerie

Rin's posts are getting more desperate every time.

Demon Rin

@eerie:

Rin's posts are getting more desperate every time.

uum… No...
16 you don't know what the hell you're talking abouts

Captain Shmeckie

@Sesshy:

I think brennen made the best point in this thread. Hatchi said "I'm pretty sure he just used "Haki" not that I know that much about it." So unless we assume Hatchi is a complete idiot that doesn't know what ambition is, it's something a bit more then that.

Even though he does then follow that remark with "though I don't know much about it." So, no, by his own account, he doesn't know what it is.

@Ao:

Someone please LOCK this thread…

Somebody please LOCK your face! OH!

@Demon:

why can't you just put "Gomu Gomu Fruit"?

Because that's not in Japanese. As we all know, Japanese is SUGOI AWESOME, YO!

Skewt

@eerie:

Rin's posts are getting more desperate every time.

That happens when you try to logically explain something on a forum that attracts young(dumb) people.

Demon Rin

People just need something to speculate about…
I remember when Gear 2nd was first introduced. The theories about THAT were JUST AS CRAZY as all the "Haki" theories!!
Some people thought the Devil Fruit was Evolving (Luffy Gained 30 exp, Luffy Grew to level 37! Luffy is Evolving!! Luffy Evolved to Gear 2nd!!)
Some people actually thought Luffy was "Vulcanizing" the rubber that makes up his body.

Ao Kiji

Somebody please LOCK your face! OH!

Can we also hire a tutor to educate this poor, unfortunate soul?

Captain Shmeckie

Hachi's line didn't help matters, though. What should've been "I've heard that thing he just used called 'whatever'" turned into a shitstorm just because he put it in quotes. Then that thing we saw in quotes got a "classification" (OH GOD ITS IN QUOTES) in Amazon Lily. Seriously, that's all it took for some people. Forget the entire theme of the series, WE GOTZ QUOTES!

@Ao:

Can we also hire a tutor to educate this poor, unfortunate soul?

You first. :)

Demon Rin

@Captain:

Hachi's line didn't help matters, though. What should've been "I've heard that thing he just used called 'whatever'" turned into a shitstorm just because he put it in quotes. Then that thing we saw in quotes got a "classification" (OH GOD ITS IN QUOTES) in Amazon Lily. Seriously, that's all it took for some people. Forget the entire theme of the series, WE GOTZ QUOTES!

Oh shit, I just pulled out the Japanese Volume 1…
"Kaizokuou" was in Quotes...
Shit, Luffy doesn't wana be Pirate King anymore, he wants to be Kaizokuou... It has quotes... so it means nothing...

EDIT: and Chapter 3... is called "Kaizoku Gari no Zoro" Toujou. "Kaizoku Gari no Zoro" was in Quotes... Zoro's title isn't translatable either... he's "Kaizoku Gari no Zoro" now instead of "Pirate Hunter Zoro". It was in Quotes, it's untranslatable!!

brennen.exe

I know this looks long, drawn out, and intimidating, but it is an easy read:

@Demon:

If you don't know what you're doing it's NOT Karate. I could watch a movie and then copy the movie and punch and Kick people. I don't know Karate, I'm just copying a movie.

Ok, so? I never said Luffy knows Haki, I just implied he accidentally used one part of its skillset. If you were in a public place and you copied the punch and kick you saw in the movie, spectators would likely say, "She's using Karate!" and someone more educated on such things might say, "She just used a Karate technique, but she doesn't seem to have much control over it." Hmm, why does that sentence sound familiar, I wonder?

Sandersonia: I've never seen anyone who wielded it… aside from our sister!!
Hancock: But he has no control over it…
@Demon:

However, Karate is still a skill-set one learns. One's Ambition is a complete part of them. Luffy harnessing it on accident shows that.

What they are able to do with "Haki" very likely is innate, or so it seems, but that doesn't make it not a skillset, especially one you can learn. Also, I like how you completely avoided responding to my comments about Aisa.

@Demon:

HARNESSING one's Ambition and using it for destructive Effect is the technique, but Ambition is just a trait of his.

So using it as an ability is a technique, but it isn't in and of itself a technique? That's ultimately what I have been saying. That's exactly what Karate, Santoryuu, Rokushiki, etc. are. They are the fighting styles, the skillsets, the martial arts. The techniques are the ways that they use them. So assuming we agree on this, why is "Haki" – the thing being used – not a name? How is it not something they are referring to by name, I mean?

@Demon:

Why is it so hard for you people to believe that in a Series with such high importance on Dreams, that The drive to achieve those dreams can be used against one's foes?

Why is it so hard for you people to consider that Oda is using a word play on the theme of the story to invent his own unique version of "willpower" or "aura" that either may or may not in actuality be related to dreams, will, or ambitions?

@Demon:

But also, what makes "Akuma no Mi" any more special than "Haki" that IT gets to be translated?! It's the Name of something too. It's a proper noun.

Honestly, that's a tricky one. Can we really say it is a proper noun? I would classify it as a common noun. Proper nouns are typically one-of-a-kind items, such as a persons real name, or a specific type of something. In this case, the reason I classify it as a common noun is because "Devil's Fruit" is not one of a kind, it is a specie of fruit, with different "flavors" – if you will -- that fall under it. Gomu Gomu being one flavor, Mero Mero being another. I am no English major though, so I honestly cannot really stand in as a credible source on this.

@Demon:

Meanwhile, they didn't translate stuff like "Nakama", you're also used to THAT.

I agree with you that nakama should be translated. We spoke about it a while back, and I left the argument finding you to be correct in that matter. I still like it though, so I don't mind it one bit. In fact, seeing it other ways seems corny to me, but that's just a mental thing because I cannot shake the feeling that 'nakama' means something more; at least in this series. Whether that is true or not doesn't matter, as like you said I am used to it, but I will agree with you that it should be translated.

@Demon:

People need to stop going "Gomu Gomu no Mi" like that's the way it should be.

My apologies, you are right. I should have said simply "Gomu Gomu". I will try to do that from now on. "Mi" (fruit) is not part of the actual name, you are absolutely right about that.

Captain Shmeckie

Did… Did Brennan just argue the semantics of fruit in a serious reply to a sarcastic suggestion just to prove his point?! Did I really read that?! Did that happen in the real world, or did someone blow pot smoke in my face when I wasn't looking…

brennen.exe

@Captain:

Did… Did Brennen just argue the semantics of fruit in a serious reply to a ~~sarcastic~~ suggestion just to prove his point?!

~~Yes, yes I did. She suggested that they were the same scenario, which they likely aren't. Do you disagree?~~ Actually, I really didn't. She claimed a fruit was a proper noun. I merely corrected her in the assumption that it was a proper noun, and gave reasons why it is more likely a common noun (in that context), which is relevant to the discussion, as it would make it a completely different case for translation than 'Haki' would.

Ao Kiji

Schmekie's being totally divisive and stupid.
I think you should just completely ignore them, Brennen.
Whether I agree with you or not…Schmeckie's just on the sidelines egging Rin on and not doing much else.

brennen.exe

@Ao:

Whether I agree with you or not…Schmeckie's just on the sidelines egging Rin on and not doing much else.

I ignore Schmeckie as long as he continues to make posts that have no real impact to the discussion. I humored him here. Demon Rin, on the other hand, I will continue to respond to as long as she is willing to discuss this. I really don't care either way, as the truth will unfold in due time, I just enjoy discussing things with people. I'm not getting upset, frustrated, or irritated about this, so as long as she isn't either I see no harm in discussing it.

Demon Rin

@brennen.exe:

Ok, so? I never said Luffy knows Haki, I just implied he accidentally used one part of its skillset. If you were in a public place and you copied the punch and kick you saw in the movie, spectators would likely say, "She's using Karate!" and someone more educated on such things might say, "She just used a Karate technique, but she doesn't seem to have much control over it." Hmm, why does that sentence sound familiar, I wonder?

No, he doesn't know how to Harness his Ambition to use it for another purpose.
But you really are comparing two completely different things.
Karate is just physical moves, anyone can imitate that. Luffy's Ambition is not a physical thing, he intimidated people completely without touching them. He shouted, his Ambition came into play, and they became intimidated.

They talk about it as though Luffy always Had it, but doesn't know hot to USE it. That's not a technique, it's a Trait one has to learn to control.

@brennen.exe:

Sandersonia: I've never seen anyone who wielded it… aside from our sister!!
Hancock: But he has no control over it…

You… Just proved my point.
They aren't saying "I've never seen anyone who had it..." just "I've never seen anyone who WIELDED it"
and then Hancock says "he has no control over it"
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING!! It's a trait of people. Everyone has it, some people's are stronger than others, Luffy just can't use it without it being an accident.

@brennen.exe:

What they are able to do with "Haki" very likely is innate, or so it seems, but that doesn't make it not a skillset, especially one you can learn. Also, I like how you completely avoided responding to my comments about Aisa.

Nope, just missed it.
Mantra was "The Ability to hear". It was just the person's sense of hearing, and somehow they could concentrate and hear over long distances. The ability was learning to hear over the long distances, not the sense itself. Aisa was just born able to do it, and they called it "Mantra" too.

@brennen.exe:

So using it as an ability is a technique, but it isn't in and of itself a technique? That's ultimately what I have been saying. That's exactly what Karate, Santoryuu, Rokushiki, etc. are. They are the fighting styles, the skillsets, the martial arts. The techniques are the ways that they use them. So assuming we agree on this, why is "Haki" – the thing being used – not a name? How is it not something they are referring to by name, I mean?

But it's NOT a fighting style, it's a character trait.
the Three Sword style is a fighting style Zoro LEARNED. He didn't accidentally pick up Three swords and accidentally cut people with them.
The Trait he uses to swing the swords is his Physical strength. That's what Ambition is, a latent trait in the person.
We don't call Zoro's Strength his "Wanryoku", we say Zoro is just plain strong.

Lucci didn't accidentally poke someone in the shoulder, make them bleed, and go "whoa, how did I do that?!"

@brennen.exe:

Why is it so hard for you people to consider that Oda is using a word play on the theme of the story to invent his own unique version of "willpower" or "aura" that either may or may not in actuality be related to dreams, will, or ambitions?

Why is it CALLED Ambition, Luffy has the AMBITION OF A KING, and his Dream is to become Pirate King?!
And Why is it the only OTHER person to have this same Ambition is a woman who started out a Slave and on her own became Empress of the Kuja?

@brennen.exe:

Honestly, that's a tricky one. Can we really say it is a proper noun? I would classify it as a common noun. Proper nouns are typically one-of-a-kind items, such as a persons real name, or a specific type of something. In this case, the reason I classify it as a common noun is because "Devil's Fruit" is not one of a kind, it is a specie of fruit, with different "flavors" – if you will -- that fall under it. Gomu Gomu being one flavor, Mero Mero being another. I am no English major though, so I honestly cannot really stand in as a credible source on this.

Honestly, that's a tricky one. Can we really say "Haki" is a Proper Noun? I would classify it as a common noun. Proper nouns are typically one-of-a-kind items, such as a person's real name, or a specific type of something. In this case, the reason I classify it as a common noun is because "Ambition" is not one of a kind, it's something many people obviously have, with different "Types" – if you will -- that fall under it. "Warring King" or "Haoushoku" being one of them. I am no English major though, so I honestly cannot really stand as a credible source on this.

@brennen.exe:

My apologies, you are right. I should have said simply "Gomu Gomu". I will try to do that from now on. "Mi" (fruit) is not part of the actual name, you are absolutely right about that.

Glad to see it, I've always known you to be a rather reasonable person.

And Stop Aokiji, we're being really civil about this, it's just a discussion. The only one being insulting here is Zkaiser, and I haven't seen him post in a while.
Which, honestly, Zkaiser, the fastest way to lose an argument is to resort to insults. People only resort to insults when they have no legs to stand on.
Next time you call me "Fucktarded" for believing something you don't, you've lost the argument.

Captain Shmeckie

Internet discussions are fucking serious shit, though. I mean, if you don't have your own quote novels to contribute, you just need to get the fuck out, 'cause you can't run wit' da big dawgs.

Sesshy

@Captain:

Internet discussions are fucking serious shit, though. I mean, if you don't have your own quote novels to contribute, you just need to get the fuck out, 'cause you can't run wit' da big dawgs.

inorite? Starting shit on the internet is so fucking badass though. Definitely doesn't mean that you have no life off the intraweb so you come on here to make yourself feel better by saying shit that you're too much of a coward to say to someone off-line.

brennen.exe

@Demon:

But you really are comparing two completely different things. Karate is just physical moves, anyone can imitate that.

No I am not. I am just not comparing two identical things. Palm Heel Strike is to "Karate" as imbuing an arrow is to "Haki". While they are not identical, the concept of what I am saying is the same. Inherent ability or learned ability, it doesn't matter. One is a technique that is being used by a form or style, while the other is the form or style used to accomplish said technique. You must have read my post before responding, so you must have known that I agree "Haki" is very likely an innate ability. Though I would assume that everyone has "Haki", the just vary in type (or aspect), if you will.

@Demon:

They talk about […] <insert paragraph="">[…] being an accident.</insert>

I'm not arguing this. See previous statement and previous post.

@Demon:

Mantra was "The Ability to hear".

Satori: "MANTRA" is the power gifted only to practitioners of the arts. Gan Forr: They say the Mantra is the "power to listen". Supposedly, just by living, humans give off voices from their body. And if you hone the skill your range of hearing extends further…

^^ It's a skill, it can be learned, it is named, it isn't translated, it can be honed, and it can be inborn. I repeat, how is this any different than Haki?

@Demon:

But it's NOT a fighting style, it's a character trait.

Make up your mind Rin. You JUST said that it can be harnessed in battle to increase destructive effect. How is that not a fighting style? How is that any different than harnessing multiple swords to increase destructive effect? Just because one is inborn and the other requires swords doesn't not make them both fighting styles that need to be learned and honed.

@Demon:

Why is it CALLED Ambition, Luffy has the AMBITION OF A KING, and his Dream is to become Pirate King?!
And Why is it the only OTHER person to have this same Ambition is a woman who started out a Slave and on her own became Empress of the Kuja?

Might as well ask why Luffy just happens to be a rubber man who fought a lightning man. It's a story, and it is fitting that Luffy's fate is destined for great things. It is also fitting that the one Amazon to wield that type of Haki rose through the ranks to being an Empress. Oda makes coincidences, chance, luck, etc. dance all across this story. Oda has his creative freedom with this, and like I suggesting, I think he is just using word play and themes to mold these elements of the story.

@Demon:

Honestly, that's a tricky one. Can we really say "Haki" is a Proper Noun? I would classify it as a common noun. Proper nouns are typically one-of-a-kind items, such as a person's real name, or a specific type of something.

A nice attempt at irony, but "Haki" is being used as a proper noun in this context by being the referenced name to an innate and/or learned ability. We both know that a "Devil's Fruit" is just a type of fruit in the One Piece world, and a fruit is a common noun. Unless the fruit is unique, then it is given a name, like Gomu Gomu. I don't think I need to explain this though…

Captain Shmeckie

@Sesshy:

inorite? Starting shit on the internet is so fucking badass though. Definitely doesn't mean that you have no life off the intraweb so you come on here to make yourself feel better by saying shit that you're too much of a coward to say to someone off-line.

Nah, I do this shit offline, too. =)

Elastic_Swindler

Why is this discussion about nouns and quotes? You're analyzing linguistics from an author who has resorted to language puns throughout One Piece. Most of the questions should receive an answer just by waiting for future chapters. In the meanwhile, nothing useful is getting added to the discussion.

Demon Rin

@brennen.exe:

No I am not. I am just not comparing two identical things. Palm Heel Strike is to "Karate" as imbuing an arrow is to "Haki". While they are not identical, the concept of what I am saying is the same. Inherent ability or learned ability, it doesn't matter. One is a technique that is being used by a form or style, while the other is the form or style used to accomplish said technique. You must have read my post before responding, so you must have known that I agree "Haki" is very likely an innate ability. Though I would assume that everyone has "Haki", the just vary in type (or aspect), if you will.

You just voided your own argument.

The Point is, Anyone can Punch and kick someone, Karate is a style you have to LEARN to use, nobody has ever Accidentally used real Karate on someone.

@brennen.exe:

Satori: "MANTRA" is the power gifted only to practitioners of the arts. Gan Forr: They say the Mantra is the "power to listen". Supposedly, just by living, humans give off voices from their body. And if you hone the skill your range of hearing extends further…

^^ It's a skill, it can be learned, it is named, it isn't translated, it can be honed, and it can be inborn. I repeat, how is this any different than Haki?

ACTUALLY, Mantra IS translated. Just Oda translated it for us before we had a chance to jump all over it.
In the Manga it's written as "Shinami" (心網) in Kanji (at least I think, I might be wrong about the "Ami" Kanji)
And if I'm right, it means "Heart/Mind Network", and That Kanji doesn't come out to "Mantra" when romanized.
Oda got on top of that and Put "Mantra" in Katakana next to it. Mantra is NOT a Japanese term either.
It's like how Oda put the Japanese word for "Pistol" in every time Luffy does the Pistol, and he actually puts it there in Katakana right next to it.
Haki is always written in Kanji, with the direct reading next to it.

@brennen.exe:

Make up your mind Rin. You JUST said that it can be harnessed in battle to increase destructive effect. How is that not a fighting style? How is that any different than harnessing multiple swords to increase destructive effect? Just because one is inborn and the other requires swords doesn't not make them both fighting styles that need to be learned and honed.

Because a fighting style is something you Learn and train.
your Ambition is a part of you.
To use a Fighting style, you utilize your Physical Strength, or your Power if you will. We don't leave power in Japanese as "Chikara" do we?
There MAY be a fighting style at play here, but it's not Ambition (Haki) its self. The Ambition is just what one uses to execute the style and technique.

Strength is used in Karate which is used to do the "Palm Strike"
Ambition is used in whatever this fighting style is to put into Arrows.

@brennen.exe:

Might as well ask why Luffy just happens to be a rubber man who fought a lightning man. It's a story, and it is fitting that Luffy's fate is destined for great things. It is also fitting that the one Amazon to wield that type of Haki rose through the ranks to being an Empress. Oda makes coincidences, chance, luck, etc. dance all across this story. Oda has his creative freedom with this, and like I suggesting, I think he is just using word play and themes to mold these elements of the story.

Yes, Oda made this happen. a Boy who wants to become Pirate King has the Ambition to make it happen, that's the point of that scene, To say "That boy has the ambition of a King!".
Just like back in Mock Town when Blackbeard picked up Luffy's 100 mil bounty and said "I thought 30 Million was too low for a kid with that Much Ambition" (Note: He said Haki)

@brennen.exe:

A nice attempt at irony, but "Haki" is being used as a proper noun in this context by being the referenced name to an innate and/or learned ability. We both know that a "Devil's Fruit" is just a type of fruit in the One Piece world, and a fruit is a common noun. Unless the fruit is unique, then it is given a name, like Gomu Gomu. I don't think I need to explain this though…

Ambition is the trait within the person, Harnessing it is the Ability

Power

Could you please all cut this freaking argument once and for all?

This has been going on for freaking ages. Yes we have our differences, some like things translated, some don't. I like pepperoni on my pizza, others like pineapple. That's it, it's a matter of preference.

Unfortunately, in this world, not everyone can get what they want. I like progressive and breakbeat music, but when I go out I only listen to house and hip hop cause that's what everyone plays. I'm a minority in that regards. I can either bitch about it and keep going on and on and on and be depressed about it or just fucking let it go and accept that the trend is different that what I like and I will have to live with it.

It's too late anyway. If carlos isn't going back on the whole 'gaol' thing we can all pretty much assume that 'haki', 'nakama' and others are here to stay.

MagneticMonkey

Now that is really funny :)
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Power

lol…

16 chars

Sesshy

@Power:

Could you please all cut this freaking argument once and for all?

Arg, what's wrong with them debating about it in a civilized manner in its own thread. It's not like it's devolved into a flame war between them in any way. Debating something with someone on an intellectual level is one of the best ways to learn about a topic. They've both probably learned something that they didn't know from one another about the issue.

Zkaiser

This post is deleted!

TakinawaTonfa

Petition to filter every appearance of the word "Haki" on this forum with "PINGAS"

That'll put an end to the argument.

MagneticMonkey

@TakinawaTonfa:

Petition to filter every appearance of the word "Haki" on this forum with "PINGAS"

let's make our own one piece sub group. There you won't be bothered by poor english translations or vague japanese words…. At least it will be creative!

TakinawaTonfa

@MagneticMonkey:

let's make our own one piece sub group. There you won't be bothered by poor english translations or vague japanese words…. At least it will be creative!

Ooooooh, thats good.

Zkaiser

@Demon:

An Art or a Skillset has to be learned. CP9 weren't born able to do the Six Forms. Koby wasn't either, he LEARNED them. So did Luffy, he flat out said he saw how CP9 did it and figured it out.
Luffy just used his Ambition on accident. He didn't even know what he did after he did it.
It's a latent Trait of a person that can be wielded for destructive effect, but it's not a power or an attack on it's own.

the problem with the argument you're using now is that you are completly ignoring the fact that Brennen.exe had said himself that the two examples aren't exact matches. You keep responding as if he equate both situations exactly, which he hasn't. He said that the CONCEPT of the situations were similar.

A person can grow up their entire life fighting street thugs and when he gets into a serious fight, he tenses his body up and moves more efficently. Little does he know, he is actually using Karate techniques. How is that not similar to what is happening now?

"Using" or "Wielding" it is just harnessing that latent part of a person and using it for other purposes. But the fact that Luffy never did ANY training or learning about it yet already HAS it means it's NOT a technique or skillset, since those things have to be learned.
Luffy just HAS it, it's a Character trait. The Technique, if it can be called that, comes in the HARNESSING of it.

So your argument is that just because Luffy was never taught how to do it or never learned to control it, that they aren't the same thing at all. What Luffy is doing isn't him utilizing Haki to attack others in the way the Kuja can? Explain that.

Haki isn't JUST a character trait. I'm going to say it isn't because, duh, it is. Haki is a pool of energy which can be used in order top augment and create attacks which is DIRECTLY RELATED to that person's ambition. Depending on your how strong your ambition is you have more access to the pool of energy connected to it. That's MY stance on this issue.

Isn't "Akuma no Mi" the name of the Devil's Fruits? Isn't "Noryoukusha" (Ability User) what you call a person who has a Devil Fruit?

You bring this shit up a lot even though you've been told that the two situations are completely different. Stop that.

@Captain:

Hachi's line didn't help matters, though. What should've been "I've heard that thing he just used called 'whatever'" turned into a shitstorm just because he put it in quotes. Then that thing we saw in quotes got a "classification" (OH GOD ITS IN QUOTES) in Amazon Lily. Seriously, that's all it took for some people. Forget the entire theme of the series, WE GOTZ QUOTES!

Hachi's line is actualy the best argument for technique angle. I guess you would discredit what Sentoumaru said about Kuma just because he said it was a rumor. Oda doesn't just have character say shit in his manga for no damn reason at all. Most sentences used by characters are made to give the readers info on what just happens in the manga because has no other way to tell us. Should we ignore what Johnny and Yosaku said about Jimbei becasue they hadnever met him?

@Demon:

Oh shit, I just pulled out the Japanese Volume 1…
"Kaizokuou" was in Quotes...
Shit, Luffy doesn't wana be Pirate King anymore, he wants to be Kaizokuou... It has quotes... so it means nothing...

EDIT: and Chapter 3... is called "Kaizoku Gari no Zoro" Toujou. "Kaizoku Gari no Zoro" was in Quotes... Zoro's title isn't translatable either... he's "Kaizoku Gari no Zoro" now instead of "Pirate Hunter Zoro". It was in Quotes, it's untranslatable!!

Wow. Just wow. You know what we're saying but you can disprove it so you resort to insults. And yet you chastize me. the funny thing about your post is that all your "examples" are titles which are always translated because they are coupled with proper nouns. Are you calling Haki a title?

@Demon:

No, he doesn't know how to Harness his Ki to use it for another purpose.
But you really are comparing two completely different things.
Karate is just physical moves, anyone can imitate that. Luffy's Ki is not a physical thing, he affected people completely without touching them. He shouted, his Ki came into play, and they became intimidated.

They talk about it as though Luffy always had it, but doesn't know hot to USE it. That's not a technique, it's a Trait one has to learn to control.

Just like Ki.

You… Just proved my point.
They aren't saying "I've never seen anyone who had it..." just "I've never seen anyone who WIELDED it"
and then Hancock says "he has no control over it"
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING!! It's a trait of people. Everyone has it, some people's are stronger than others, Luffy just can't use it without it being an accident.

Welcome to the false dichotomy. Just because something is one thing it can't be another. No dice.

Why is it CALLED Ambition, Luffy has the AMBITION OF A KING, and his Dream is to become Pirate King?!
And Why is it the only OTHER person to have this same Ambition is a woman who started out a Slave and on her own became Empress of the Kuja?

As I have said before Oda is tying the concept of a person's ambition to their own strength.

And Stop Aokiji, we're being really civil about this, it's just a discussion. The only one being insulting here is Zkaiser, and I haven't seen him post in a while.
Which, honestly, Zkaiser, the fastest way to lose an argument is to resort to insults. People only resort to insults when they have no legs to stand on.
Next time you call me "Fucktarded" for believing something you don't, you've lost the argument.

Seriously do you have Schmeckie on ignore or something? Get off your high horse and face the facts. I'll say whatever the fuck I want to say instead of pussyfooting around with condescending syntax and jeering remarks. I'm not one to hide behind words. If I think you're being fucktarded , I'll say so. You need to get on your man Shmeck. He's been way worse than me but I don't see you telling him to lay off.

@Captain:

Okay, people, if you don't get it now, you don't want to get it. That's pretty much the best I've seen it broken down in this thread.

And yes, Zkaiser, how could you give up the fight!? You traitor! How shall we spin our web of theories without you, my brother?! You have failed your ~~comrades~~ nakama in arms! Now the Englishmen will surely win the day!

What are you talking about. I never had a problem with translation notes. I say it should be untranslated because it is a technique. Demon Rin brought up the fact that scanlators don't even use translation notes, which I think is wrong. Also, I have never used the word nakama so you can put that shit away.

@TakinawaTonfa:

Petition to filter every appearance of the word "Haki" on this forum with "PINGAS"

That'll put an end to the argument.

That would escalate the argument. You'd have to filter both Haki and Ambition.

Demon Rin

Yeah, this Argument is turning into Flame war material.
Considering I'm not changing anyone's mind, I'm gonna stop before that happens.

Oda will explain it eventually.
Just people need to realize that just because they have a Shiny new thing to speculate about, It doesn't suddenly mean EVERYTHING in the series is now explainable by applying this to it.
No, Zoro doesn't have Cutting Haki, Sanji doesn't have Kicking Haki, Stop.

And people need to start fucking Translating Haki and Haoshoku. Even if you're not gonna do it in the Bubbles, do a translation note for god's sake, don't just leave it without explanation.
It's a Small victory, but damnit I'd be happy with that much.
Oda called it the Japanese word for "Ambition" for a reason people.

And Zkaiser, you need to change your sig.
Now that we have a character who can change people's Gender at will and He's on Luffy's Team, It's no longer ridiculous to speculate that Luffy may become a Woman.
A Little out there, yes, but not Ridiculous as you seem to be making it out to be.
At one time your Sig Meant something, but it doesn't anymore.

TakinawaTonfa

@Zkaiser:

That would escalate the argument. You'd have to filter both Haki and Ambition.

Y'know what? From now on every noun in the OP world will referred to as "PINGAS".

The PINGAS pirates set sail for the Grand PINGAS, Each member looking to fulfill they're own individual PINGAS. The Captian, PINGAS D. PINGAS wants to become King of the PINGAS, but one day he gets flung over to PINGAS, and island populated by women, where he meets PINGAS, PINGAS, and PINGAS.

PINGAS beats PINGAS and PINGAS with his PINGAS

Kuminator

@TakinawaTonfa:

PINGAS beats PINGAS and PINGAS with his PINGAS

Phonetically, that sounds sooooooo Wrong . . .

Zkaiser

@Demon:

And Zkaiser, you need to change your sig.
Now that we have a character who can change people's Gender at will and He's on Luffy's Team, It's no longer ridiculous to speculate that Luffy may become a Woman.
A Little out there, yes, but not Ridiculous as you seem to be making it out to be.
At one time your Sig Meant something, but it doesn't anymore.

My sig still holds meaning. It's not the specifics of the quote it's the concept. just because the series has a lot of weird shit, that doesn't mean that you can speculate anything under the veil of "IT'S ONE PIECE!! ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN!!"

Demon Rin

@Zkaiser:

My sig still holds meaning. It's not the specifics of the quote it's the concept. just because the series has a lot of weird shit, that doesn't mean that you can speculate anything under the veil of "IT'S ONE PIECE!! ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN!!"

Yeah, but your sig uses an example that is no longer Valid.
That's like Saying "We'll Never see Mr. 2 in the main plot Again" Then The Meet Baroque Works Cover story happens.
we had NO Idea he would come back to the main plot at that point, but seeing him in a cover story brought his chances from None to Slim.

If you wana keep it, then change the example to something like "SANJI IS GAY!! HE BE HIDIN' IT BEHIND PERVERSION" "Whut?" "NIGGAS BE TURNIN INTO GIRAFFES, WHATCHU GONNA SAY SANJI CAN'T BE GAY!?" Since that's NEVER Gonna happen, EVER

It makes the argument seem weak to use an Example that no longer holds water

About the Subject at hand.
Look, I'm just gonna say, I tend to get REALLY argumentative and I like to debate things, but I admit I may be wrong.
I'm a big person, and I can admit that I might very well be wrong on this, but it looks like we're not really arguing about what it IS anymore. We all seem to be in agreement that it's a latent power inside Luffy and it's based around his Ambition in some way. Heck, even Zkaiser is with me on that one.
We're just arguing Semantics at this point. I say it's not a Proper Noun because it's just a trait of a person, you guys think it is because you classify it as an attack of some kind.
We aren't disagreeing about what it IS, just how to Classify it. Oda will explain more later, and then we'll have a better understanding of where to put it classification wise.

Kuminator

@Demon:

Yeah, but your sig uses an example that is no longer Valid.
That's like Saying "We'll Never see Mr. 2 in the main plot Again" Then The Meet Baroque Works Cover story happens.
we had NO Idea he would come back to the main plot at that point, but seeing him in a cover story brought his chances from None to Slim.

If you wana keep it, then change the example to something like "SANJI IS GAY!! HE BE HIDIN' IT BEHIND PERVERSION" "Whut?" "NIGGAS BE TURNIN INTO GIRAFFES, WHATCHU GONNA SAY SANJI CAN'T BE GAY!?" Since that's NEVER Gonna happen, EVER

Yeah, but Luffy hasn't actually turned into a woman,
also I don't thnk he will … infact did the people who made the April Fools' Prank get the idea of Girl Luffy froM ZKaiser's Sig .. ?

MagneticMonkey

Yes i think aspect of ivans fruit. Noone with the king haki can be changed into the other sex…

Demon Rin

@Kuminator:

Yeah, but Luffy hasn't actually turned into a woman,
also I don't thnk he will … infact did the people who made the April Fools' Prank get the idea of Girl Luffy froM ZKaiser's Sig .. ?

No, they got the Idea from the fact that Iva can change people's Genders, and Bon Kurei brought him to Iva to fix him.
They put two and two together and decided it was POSSIBLE that Luffy could become a woman. People were speculating that, so they used it as a believable spoiler. The fact that it fooled a LOT of people proves my point actually.

And Luffy hasn't, but the whole point of Zkaiser's sig is that The notion of Luffy becoming a Woman is Utterly ridiculous and could never possibly happen, yet people use the other crazy things that happen in One Piece to justify such a theory. It now looks stupid to use that As an Example, because Iva COULD Turn Luffy into a woman in the future. I'm not sure how PROBABLE it is, but it's now POSSIBLE, so Zkaiser's sig just looks silly now.

Like, say they need to escape now to get out to Marine HQ to save Ace. Iva then decides to turn them all into women since the guards are looking for 3 (now 5) MEN.
Again, not Probable, but it's no longer Impossible either

zullzero

@silvers:

Haki != Ambition. I've said this a couple of times in other threads, and I will say it again.

It is understandable, however, that it is mistranslated, as there is no direct counterpart for "Haki" in the English language.

I kinda prefer the translation to willpower, because it syncs up with that "will of d" type of stuff. It's a bit more generalized and the sentences flow better with it as well. Anyway, I don't care how someone translates it as long as it doesn't make someone more confused than they would be if they just left it untranslated. "Ambition" kind of pigeonholes it into meaning a specific thing, when it kind of is a semi-controlled manifestation of the height of one's goal and their will to accomplish it. Yes, that means "ambition", kind of. But using that word in an grammatically incorrect way just makes the translations awkward. I minored in English Comp, and every time I read a line where someone says "he used his Ambition", my brain stumbles over that because it's NOT RIGHT. I also have been watching subs done by non-native English speakers for a long time, and I'm used to those sorts of screwups and take them in stride. If you get the picture, then who cares. You hear more awkward grammar just asking the time of day from someone off the street. I have a dialect, they have a dialect, etc.

I came to the conclusion that I'd just relate it to Jedi mind-tricks to one of my pals who watches who had no idea why the subs kept whacking that word around. I wasn't going to tell her to check out this site, because every thread that brings up this subject devolves into utter banality. If some random Amazon with no goal to be the Pirate King can shoot a snake through a tree with their "Ambition", then in my boat, that's a jedi-mind trick. It just becomes more powerful based upon how high and difficult your goals are.

Zkaiser

Right on, homie.

Skull Kid

Regardless of what the Haki=Ambition people think of the concept, Haki itself is not going to be accurately represented by just calling it that. The meaning of the concept itself goes beyond just ambition, is more specialized, and is going to look stupid in subs or scanlations where its just referred to as "ambition" with nothing else explianing it. The reader is going to be looking at it and be all "So Luffy or character x used their ambition? How is that doing anything and whats the big deal?"

It's just stupid to leave it like that with no explanation. At least with Haki it could be defined as a technique and explained like the rest. And if you guys insist on it not being one, at least give it a more specific definition than just "ambition" or "willpower". Those words have meanings that could easily apply to dialog scenarios in One Piece that have nothing to do with someone using Haki. It needs to be explained that the character is actually using a force or ability or whatever you want to define it as. Not "Amazon number 38474 attacks with AMBITION!!!!11" or "Luffy accidentally used a technique involving his AMBITION!!!1, but can't fully control it yet!".

It doesn't make sense unless you clearly define it's significance (or at least basic idea) to the reader. Because they aren't going to understand that its a kind of special force. They are just going to think random human thoughts and ideas and concepts can somehow formulate into attacks now.

Demon Rin

@ Zullzero and Skull Kid.

You guys are exactly right about it being confusing, but try to see this through a Japanese Fan's perspective.
They're just seeing "Ambition" being thrown around about this, it's probably just as confusing for them too because NOBODY knows exactly how this works yet.