General 'Haki' Discussion

RomanceDawn

My apologies I should have been more clear I was referring to COA as in the hardening aspect. I agree all those are DF mixed with Haki. Even when Akainu was being attacked by Marco and Vista he seemed to be able to counter their attacks with Haki.

I see. I guess it depends on the ability. Doflamingo hardening his strings to make that seemingly indestructible bird cage could be an example. Someone like Aokiji could certainly harden his ice weapons if he wanted. But when more energy based fruits/abilties that don't create a substance with a solid state are used maybe applying the hardening just doesn't work. It is hard for me to imagine but probably just works on a fruit by fruit bases. Like how would you ever apply Arms in any form to Corazon's sound muting fruit?

Rukusho

@RomanceDawn:

I see. I guess it depends on the ability. Doflamingo hardening his strings to make that seemingly indestructible bird cage could be an example. Someone like Aokiji could certainly harden his ice weapons if he wanted. But when more energy based fruits/abilties that don't create a substance with a solid state are used maybe applying the hardening just doesn't work. It is hard for me to imagine but probably just works on a fruit by fruit bases. Like how would you ever apply Arms in any form to Corazon's sound muting fruit?

Thats true depends on the ability, I was thinking why Law has never done it (hardening) yet he was able to slice Vergo who had hardening.Theres a lot about Haki we don't know yet guess we have to wait…

RomanceDawn

@Rukusho:

Thats true depends on the ability, I was thinking why Law has never done it (hardening) yet he was able to slice Vergo who had hardening.Theres a lot about Haki we don't know yet guess we have to wait…

Yeah now that you mention it, hardening at first glance appears to be a more advanced form of CoA but even without hardening it seems that if your Haki is good enough you don't need to harden to by pass someone elses hardening.

Candide

@RomanceDawn:

Yeah now that you mention it, hardening at first glance appears to be a more advanced form of CoA but even without hardening it seems that if your Haki is good enough you don't need to harden to by pass someone elses hardening.

CoA basically IS hardening.

Rukusho

@RomanceDawn:

Yeah now that you mention it, hardening at first glance appears to be a more advanced form of CoA but even without hardening it seems that if your Haki is good enough you don't need to harden to by pass someone elses hardening.

That would make sense how Law overcame Vergos hardening, there was also the chapter which confused me a bit is when Doffy attacked Luffy and mentioned " he's still rubber even though he hardened " So was Luffys haji better than Doffy ? Or is it simply just the rubber properties which helped.

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@Candide:

CoA basically IS hardening.

Yeah CoA is hardening just a level higher like when Rayleigh used it against the elephant or Kizaru his sword nor his leg turned black, where as Luffy has been using hardening since the time skip.

RomanceDawn

@Candide:

CoA basically IS hardening.

Well yes but I think we are specifically talking about the blackening equating hardening. We've had a few examples post time skip where Haki was used but it was the invisible armor that Rayleigh described. At first glance blackening would appear to be a more advanced version but obviously it isn't necessarily more powerful.

In Chapter 681 Luffy goes for his rematch with Caesar. Luffy fires up his Jet Pistol and bashes Caesar right in the face causing him to bleed in Logia form. Then a page or two later Luffy specifically says "Armament Hardening", his fists turn black and lets out a Jet Gatling. This is probably the clearest example because it's done in one chapter by the same character.

Not seeing any blackening before the time-skip could have been done consciously by Oda for a later surprise or just maybe he thought it would be more interesting visually for the readers after he fleshed it out a bit more.

What ever the case, Armament gives the user an invisible piece of armor(which is physically hard I assume) but it's not the exact same as Armament Hardening. One would assume the hardening/blackening is just a better over all and maybe it is for people of equal ability. The only downside to blackening could be just burning up energy and stamina a lot faster. Though just like Haki VS no Haki, enough physical force is going to bypass the defenses of Haki, so it stands to reason if trained well enough the base Haki can also bypass some one else hardening/blackening ability.

madriano

I still hate the fact that Oda hasn't really gone in depth about Haki and it's utilities (not so much about CoC, I think this one was pretty much intentionally skipped over on Rayleighs explanation), CoA and CoO should have been thoroughly explained at this point in time IMO. Like we really don't know if hardening is a stronger form of CoA, or if it's literally CoA applied offensively. Neither it was explained if the blackening effect is seen by everyone or just by those who know haki and whatnot. And worst is, I feel like Oda won't really expand on it, and will just go on like we know exactly everything there is to know about it.

uniaka ikuzakas

This post is deleted!

Rukusho

@madriano:

I still hate the fact that Oda hasn't really gone in depth about Haki and it's utilities (not so much about CoC, I think this one was pretty much intentionally skipped over on Rayleighs explanation), CoA and CoO should have been thoroughly explained at this point in time IMO. Like we really don't know if hardening is a stronger form of CoA, or if it's literally CoA applied offensively. Neither it was explained if the blackening effect is seen by everyone or just by those who know haki and whatnot. And worst is, I feel like Oda won't really expand on it, and will just go on like we know exactly everything there is to know about it.

I think a lot of the answers to questions are in the previous chapters. As for if CoA can be seen I believe so since Mihawk mentioned that until your swords are capable of turning all black no sake. But I will expect Oda to answer our questions in the flash backs..piece..by…piece very slowly. The only Haki which is most interesting is CoC.

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Luffy should improve his CoA though....

braveniler58

I think Haki is just simply different for everyone. Haki adapts to your fighting style. For example, for Usopp, CoO is like thermal vision which is tailor-made for his sniping, but for others, it's more like spider-sense. They're both the same thing, just manifested differently.

You can wear CoA as armor, but you can also use it as a shield (Admirals in Marineford), on projectiles (Amazon Lily), on swords, et cetera.

Haki isn't something specific/concrete, it's a broader concept. It's all up to how you want/need your Haki to work, and whether you can figure out the best way to use it.

I'm fairly satisfied with what CoO and CoA is, it's CoC I want to know more about.

RomanceDawn

@braveniler58:

I think Haki is just simply different for everyone. Haki adapts to your fighting style. For example, for Usopp, CoO is like thermal vision which is tailor-made for his sniping, but for others, it's more like spider-sense. They're both the same thing, just manifested differently.

You can wear CoA as armor, but you can also use it as a shield (Admirals in Marineford), on projectiles (Amazon Lily), on swords, et cetera.

Haki isn't something specific/concrete, it's a broader concept. It's all up to how you want/need your Haki to work, and whether you can figure out the best way to use it.

I'm fairly satisfied with what CoO and CoA is, it's CoC I want to know more about.

It definitely is broad enough to be used in creative ways but I'd never say it was different for everyone. The first time we got to experience Haki as the characters do was through Usopp, our Everyman who we can all relate to. Within the same arc we get almost the exact same visual with Fujitora. It was exactly as Rayleigh explained, the thing about even invisible enemies can be seen through observation. Predicting movements was done by all the higher ups of Eneru's group as well as the Boa Sisters, Ray, Luffy, etc. Usopp will most likely develop his ability to predict movements as time goes on.

braveniler58

@RomanceDawn:

It definitely is broad enough to be used in creative ways but I'd never say it was different for everyone. The first time we got to experience Haki as the characters do was through Usopp, our Everyman who we can all relate to. Within the same arc we get almost the exact same visual with Fujitora. It was exactly as Rayleigh explained, the thing about even invisible enemies can be seen through observation. Predicting movements was done by all the higher ups of Eneru's group as well as the Boa Sisters, Ray, Luffy, etc. Usopp will most likely develop his ability to predict movements as time goes on.

I didn't explain it too clearly in my previous post, but I didn't mean Haki was completely different for everyone; how Haki manifests is based on the person's proficiency and fighting style. IMO, Usopp being able to see exactly where Sugar and Luffy/Law was is a higher level of CoO than the spider-sense type, but Usopp has never shown any sign of that spider-sense feeling that I can remember. He went straight to the thermal, as it applies greatly to his fighting style. Robin, on the other hand, showed signs of that spider-sense when Hakuba went after her. I doubt she can do what Usopp can do (yet) though. Both are CoO but one is more effective for Usopp's style, the other is more effective for Robin's style.

I agree that Usopp will most likely develop the ability to predict moves and that will also help with his sniping. I don't know if Robin ever will, though.

If everyone was to train the exact same way, there's no question they'd all develop the same way of using CoO (and CoA), but clearly, that's not the case. Everyone has the capability to do everything possible under the CoO umbrella, but that doesn't mean they'll learn every bit to CoO.

I hope I make better sense now.

Kdom

@madriano:

I still hate the fact that Oda hasn't really gone in depth about Haki and it's utilities (not so much about CoC, I think this one was pretty much intentionally skipped over on Rayleighs explanation), CoA and CoO should have been thoroughly explained at this point in time IMO. Like we really don't know if hardening is a stronger form of CoA, or if it's literally CoA applied offensively. Neither it was explained if the blackening effect is seen by everyone or just by those who know haki and whatnot. And worst is, I feel like Oda won't really expand on it, and will just go on like we know exactly everything there is to know about it.

It’s just that it gives him more liberties the less he says. With a 800 chapters length halfway story it is necessary so that he can avoid the plotholes.

trio walcott

Rayleigh Said:
When facing a Devil Fruit user, other than taking advantage of their individual weaknesses…..this "Armament Haki" is the sole method of effectively combating their abilities...!!
(cnet's translation)

Some people who debating me described it like this:
"Haki is the sole method of effectively combating their abilities and TAKING advantage of their individual weaknesses"
He means haki can taking advantage of their individual weaknesses. But I dont understand about "haki can taking their individual weeknesses". So I asking him what is the meaning of "individual weaknesses", and he told me something like "we wont know until Rayleigh or someone else in manga explained it"

But I think Rayleigh means "Haki is the sole methode of effectively combating Devil Fruit user OTHER THAN taking advantage of their individual weaknesses"
I mean haki is alternative methode for combating Devil Fruit user other than "using water for Crocodile" or "rubber for Enel"

I'm not good in english so I asking here which one is wrong

RomanceDawn

@trio:

Rayleigh Said:
When facing a Devil Fruit user, other than taking advantage of their individual weaknesses…..this "Armament Haki" is the sole method of effectively combating their abilities...!!
(cnet's translation)

Some people who debating me described it like this:
"Haki is the sole method of effectively combating their abilities and TAKING advantage of their individual weaknesses"
He means haki can taking advantage of their individual weaknesses. But I dont understand about "haki can taking their individual weeknesses". So I asking him what is the meaning of "individual weaknesses", and he told me something like "we wont know until Rayleigh or someone else in manga explained it"

But I think Rayleigh means "Haki is the sole methode of effectively combating Devil Fruit user OTHER THAN taking advantage of their individual weaknesses"
I mean haki is alternative methode for combating Devil Fruit user other than "using water for Crocodile" or "rubber for Enel"

I'm not good in english so I asking here which one is wrong

Your understanding is correct. Haki is the general all around tool to take on fruit users while the individual weaknessess referred to by Rayleigh are situational and work on a fruit by fruit basis.

EvoWarrior5

Though to be fair, effective use of CoO would assist in finding said individual weaknesses I'd think. But yea, that sentence meant what you think it meant.