General 'Haki' Discussion

Whackadoodle

It does not "strongly" suggest that he was trained by anyone actually.

Then why do so few haki users seem to know how to use hardening? Even pirates with years, or even decades, of experience.

And how did Tashigi learn both soru and haki in that time? Why is it that so many marines (and WG personnel like CP9) know soru, but relatively few other people do, if it's not that the Marines specifically train their personnel?

It seems evident to me that the most parsimonious explanation is that they got help, and we just haven't heard about it because it's not important to the story. It also seems pretty silly to me to assume that the Marines don't bother giving advanced training to their mid-to-high ranking Grand Line personnel.

desa

@Whackadoodle:

Tashigi, who had 2 years of training under senior Marines. The Marines being likely the single largest organization in the world (except in that it's a subset of the WG, a sort of meta-organization), and having the resources of the whole world to use in finding haki trainers. And still only seems to have learned the most rudimentary uses. I don't think that says haki is easy to acquire, it means the Marines have a lot of resources to throw at the problem. And Tashigi at least has some potential; she may not match up well against the monster trio, but she's shown quite a bit of growth in strength/skill; I think she'll be a VA by EOS, and that probably will make her extremely young for a VA - at least 5 years younger than the normal age for that promotion, and possibly 10.

Many other pirates with decades of experience don't seem to have it; most of the people who have it seem to have either (a) grown up around it, (b) had it unlocked due to trauma, had a top-notch trainer who knew how to use it, or (d) some combination of the above. That suggests it's pretty exceptional, even if some seemingly unimpressive fighters have it as well.

To me it says Haki requires maybe required some training but definitly not the harsh taining that Rayleigh seemed to imply. At least not for important characters.

Whackadoodle

@desa:

To me it says Haki requires maybe required some training but definitly not the harsh taining that Rayleigh seemed to imply.

I think the particularly harsh training was to beat enough knowledge into Luffy for him to do okay in the New World; I definitely get the impression that simply unlocking the basics of haki takes far less strenuous training than Luffy received (but then you have to develop it yourself, presumably through combat…).

desa

@Whackadoodle:

I think the particularly harsh training was to beat enough knowledge into Luffy for him to do okay in the New World; I definitely get the impression that simply unlocking the basics of haki takes far less strenuous training than Luffy received (but then you have to develop it yourself, presumably through combat…).

Well Rayleigh was the one to day that normally you can't get to use haki in that short time and that he'll teach Luffy the basics. He was the one to say basics take more than 2 years normally.

Shadowgreed

@Whackadoodle:

Then why do so few haki users seem to know how to use hardening? Even pirates with years, or even decades, of experience.

Because Hardening is a Post time-skip type of thing

And how did Tashigi learn both soru and haki in that time? Why is it that so many marines (and WG personnel like CP9) know soru, but relatively few other people do, if it's not that the Marines specifically train their personnel?

Via Smoker, we have seen Tashigi trained with Marines that are weaker than she is and moving to G5 may no even help her case at all, If she kept training with weaker Marines

It seems evident to me that the most parsimonious explanation is that they got help, and we just haven't heard about it because it's not important to the story. It also seems pretty silly to me to assume that the Marines don't bother giving advanced training to their mid-to-high ranking Grand Line personnel.

And yeah, I agree, the Marines most have trainers who can teach a selected few about the use of Haki and the Rokushiki techniques

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@desa:

Well Rayleigh was the one to day that normally you can't get to use haki in that short time and that he'll teach Luffy the basics. He was the one to say basics take more than 2 years normally.

Yeah, but Luffy's basics aris not really the Basics, Tashigi's haki should/has to be the real basics

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@desa:

2/3 of the main had other stuff to take care of. Except Usopp who had no luck.When even Tashigi can get the trick it is safe to safe it is no big deal.

None of the other Strawhats learn it because their teacher didn't know how to use themselves and I'm still skeptical about Robin, like what's her deal

Whackadoodle

@Shadowgreed:

Via Smoker, we have seen Tashigi trained with Marines that are weaker than she is and moving to G5 may no even help her case at all, If she kept training with weaker Marines

But nothing we've seen suggests that's the only training either of them did. If it were… well, it's hard to believe they would be alive after 2 years in the New World.

And yeah, I agree, the Marines most have trainers who can teach a selected few about the use of Haki and the Rokushiki techniques

Based on how many of the high-ranking officers know both, I'd guess they specifically train a lot of higher-ranking marines. There's probably a training program that most officers of a certain rank (probably somewhere around Rear Admiral, I'd guess, but it's hard to be sure) go through, along with some special cases. Tashigi, being the executive officer/adjutant/whatever you want to call her of an officer requesting a transfer to the New World, would likely make that list.

Yeah, but Luffy's basics aris not really the Basics, Tashigi's haki should/has to be the real basics

Exactly. I think what Rayleigh considers "the basics" of haki, and what the minimum needed to actually utilize haki is, are two quite different things.

Decker

If you consider how is the "expert" level on Haki usage for Rayleigh, ( Roger ) i think 2 years is a good amount of time to learn the "basics" of Haki, according to Rayleigh.

Shadowgreed

@Whackadoodle:

But nothing we've seen suggests that's the only training either of them did. If it were… well, it's hard to believe they would be alive after 2 years in the New World.

As you now know, the New World is like Pokemon, the deeper in the story you move the strongest the characters appear or something like that

Based on how many of the high-ranking officers know both, I'd guess they specifically train a lot of higher-ranking marines. There's probably a training program that most officers of a certain rank (probably somewhere around Rear Admiral, I'd guess, but it's hard to be sure) go through, along with some special cases. Tashigi, being the executive officer/adjutant/whatever you want to call her of an officer requesting a transfer to the New World, would likely make that list.

They probably train their high ranking Marines like you said but I still think that they just train the prominent ones and not just the bunch. Yeah Tashigi seems like a person who can get some strong trainers that can teach her those stuff.

amadeus

I believe that you will find other colors of haki.

For now, we have seen

Haki white (the normal one, that is transparent, used by most of the characters)
haki black (the one used by advanced Luffy, Vergo, Don Chinjao and Smoker)

Besides these, there could be other colors as

haki red (the burning of Sanji and Kin'emon)
haki blue (the one that manipulates the water used by JIMBE)

And who knows how many others.

Takto

Smoker, in order to become an vice admiral, needed training in haki. Thats a condition to become an vice admiral. Either you already have it or you need to train for it. Smoker took some lessons i guess and tashigi learnt from smoker.

And don`t think that everyone in the OPverse trained. Many of them only do learn from their journeys and their experiences.

Maju

@amadeus:

I believe that you will find other colors of haki.

For now, we have seen

Haki white (the normal one, that is transparent, used by most of the characters)
haki black (the one used by advanced Luffy, Vergo, Don Chinjao and Smoker)

Besides these, there could be other colors as

haki red (the burning of Sanji and Kin'emon)
haki blue (the one that manipulates the water used by JIMBE)

And who knows how many others.

since rayleight is the one who taught us what we know for sure about haki,I think it's pretty sure that that's all we have to know about it.no other "shades"

amadeus

@Maju:

since rayleight is the one who taught us what we know for sure about haki,I think it's pretty sure that that's all we have to know about it.no other "shades"

f there should be based on what he told Rayleigh, then the black haki would not exist.
Instead, strangely exists.

Maju

@amadeus:

f there should be based on what he told Rayleigh, then the black haki would not exist.
Instead, strangely exists.

there is no "black haki"
it's just an application of busoushoku

you are implying that there are other types of haki besides the 3 we know at the moment…but since the one who gave us an explanation about haki was the first mate oof the king of pirates,i believe he would have know if other types of haki existed.

amadeus

@Maju:

there is no "black haki"
it's just an application of busoushoku

you are implying that there are other types of haki besides the 3 we know at the moment…but since the one who gave us an explanation about haki was the first mate oof the king of pirates,i believe he would have know if other types of haki existed.

it is assumed by you. This does not mean that Oda can not do what he like.
Indeed, it has already done.

If at Marineford, with all haki users who were there, we did not see anyone use the haki black, while in the NW now everyone is using it, it means that there is something strange.

Oda has practically changed the cards on the table, and as he did in the past, I could do it again.

Spam286

@amadeus:

it is assumed by you. This does not mean that Oda can not do what he like.
Indeed, it has already done.

If at Marineford, with all haki users who were there, we did not see anyone use the haki black, while in the NW now everyone is using it, it means that there is something strange.

Oda has practically changed the cards on the table, and as he did in the past, I could do it again.

This is a narrative thing. Oda shows what we know about but keeps hidden things that are still a mystery to the primary characters. You can see it in this very arc. We didn't get to see Barto's barriers until his fruit was explained, we didn't get to actually see Doflamingo's strings until they were explained. Same thing with haki. We didn't see it before the timeskip because it was a vague notion. Now that it's been explained, armament shows up black so that we know when its being used.

Maju

@amadeus:

it is assumed by you. This does not mean that Oda can not do what he like.
Indeed, it has already done.

If at Marineford, with all haki users who were there, we did not see anyone use the haki black, while in the NW now everyone is using it, it means that there is something strange.

Oda has practically changed the cards on the table, and as he did in the past, I could do it again.

the author stated that it is still busoushoku haki in the manga,so no cards have been changed
back in amazon lily arrows were able to go through solid rock due to being imbued with haki,that means than hardening materials was still a property even back then,it's still busoushoku haki,still one of the three shades we've seen.

amadeus

the fact is that Oda probably had not thought at haki black before the age of 2, otherwise it does not explain its massive presence in this second part of the trip.

Now, I realize the fantasy of my theory.
However, the fact that no one has appointed or showed other types of haki, I think, is not a sufficient reason to say that they would never appear.

Oda is the author and does what he wants.
After two years, over black haki, he also kicked out of nowhere two guys are very strong that as soon recruited by the Marine Admiral

Maju

@amadeus:

the fact is that Oda probably had not thought at haki black before the age of 2, otherwise it does not explain its massive presence in this second part of the trip.

Now, I realize the fantasy of my theory.
However, the fact that no one has appointed or showed other types of haki, I think, is not a sufficient reason to say that they would never appear.

Oda is the author and does what he wants.
After two years, over black haki, he also kicked out of nowhere two guys are very strong that as soon recruited by the Marine Admiral

oh well,of course is a fantasy story…the author can do what he wants,even make luffy the pirate king next chapter..but if we are going by the rules and the (until now believable ) world created by oda...the fact that the dark king rayleight said us that there are only 3 shades of haki,means that there are only 3 of them,,and as i already said,busoushoku was used for hardening materials even before the timeskip,only difference was that before it was not colored,probably for the reason Spam already explained...

amadeus

@Maju:

oh well,of course is a fantasy story…the author can do what he wants,even make luffy the pirate king next chapter..but if we are going by the rules and the (until now believable ) world created by oda...the fact that the dark king rayleight said us that there are only 3 shades of haki,means that there are only 3 of them,,and as i already said,busoushoku was used for hardening materials even before the timeskip,only difference was that before it was not colored,probably for the reason Spam already explained...

But I, from what I understand, the busoushoku, the one mentioned by Rayleigh, and the black, are not the same thing.

Sanji, Zoro, Pekoms, Law, use the haki but not the black one.

Thus, the black seems an advanced stage than normal.

Maju

@amadeus:

But I, from what I understand, the busoushoku, the one mentioned by Rayleigh, and the black, are not the same thing.

Sanji, Zoro, Pekoms, Law, use the haki but not the black one.

Thus, the black seems an advanced stage than normal.

when luffy uses the "black haki",at least the first couple times,he shouts "Busoushoku', Kouka" ,that means "color of armaments,hardening"

knceng

@amadeus:

the fact is that Oda probably had not thought at haki black before the age of 2, otherwise it does not explain its massive presence in this second part of the trip.

Now, I realize the fantasy of my theory.
However, the fact that no one has appointed or showed other types of haki, I think, is not a sufficient reason to say that they would never appear.

Oda is the author and does what he wants.
After two years, over black haki, he also kicked out of nowhere two guys are very strong that as soon recruited by the Marine Admiral

Or it could be a request from anime team u know, so the kids not get confused

Spam286

@amadeus:

But I, from what I understand, the busoushoku, the one mentioned by Rayleigh, and the black, are not the same thing.

Sanji, Zoro, Pekoms, Law, use the haki but not the black one.

Thus, the black seems an advanced stage than normal.

Sanji's trousers are black, so you wouldn't be able to tell anyway. Zoro and Law both use it on their swords where it doesn't show up, presumably so that the shape of the sword is still discernible, and with Pekoms it didn't need showing because it was implied by the fact he was punching a logia user.

amadeus

@Spam286:

Sanji's trousers are black, so you wouldn't be able to tell anyway. Zoro and Law both use it on their swords where it doesn't show up, presumably so that the shape of the sword is still discernible, and with Pekoms it didn't need showing because it was implied by the fact he was punching a logia user.

The fact that blacks are Sanji's pants does not mean anything, he continues to use the Diable Jambe and black haki has never appointed.

Law and Zoro even they have never named.

Pekoms is clearly seen hitting a logia without obscuring his fist.

Then there is also Luffy at Sabaody, against the PX, use a handful of soaked haki (the mouth of Sentoumaru) but not black.

The black is not the same haki haki two years earlier. That is always busoushoku is, but black is another application.

It is not true that anyone should use the haki must necessarily darken parts of the body.

Spam286

@amadeus:

The fact that blacks are Sanji's pants does not mean anything, he continues to use the Diable Jambe and black haki has never appointed.

Law and Zoro even they have never named.

Pekoms is clearly seen hitting a logia without obscuring his fist.

Then there is also Luffy at Sabaody, against the PX, use a handful of soaked haki (the mouth of Sentoumaru) but not black.

The black is not the same haki haki two years earlier. That is always busoushoku is, but black is another application.

It is not true that anyone should use the haki must necessarily darken parts of the body.

I'm telling you, the blackening is just a device Oda's using when he wants to make it clear the character is using busoushoku. He didn't bother before the timeskip because haki was rare and mysterious and he wanted us to question it, but now that it's been explained properly he wanted a way to show it explicitly so that the audience doesn't have any doubts. In scenarios where it's obvious he doesn't bother. So when someone punches a logia user, it's obvious. He also doesn't seem to bother when it's being used with a sword. As for Sanji, it's sort of one or the other, isn't it? He can't draw Diable Jambe and the busoushoku blackening because that'd require drawing something that is white and also black, so he just relies on the audience being smart enough to figure out that busoushoku usage is implied.

Goda

Sanji using busoushoku is the only possible way to go. And it's very Goda to incorporate old concepts into new ones.
Sanji was introduced so long ago, back then OPverse didn't had any structure and was much more episodic, having a character that is not a devil fruit user but still possesses weird power that rivals one was a common thing. Now everything is categorized, you must have this and that be able to do that. So it's only natural Goda would categorize and expand previously random things. Just like with haki to begin with, he expanded and incorporated such out-of-the-ass nonsense ability as "Mantra" into "Haki" later in the story and now even reading back it makes sense.
That's how you do it.

Babypimp93

Sanji's Dj is definetly Haki

Maju

@Babypimp93:

Sanji's Dj is definetly Haki

yeah,luffy had to stop for two years to learn how to use busoushoku,but sanji casually learned how to do it without even know about its existence,right

Babypimp93

@Maju:

yeah,luffy had to stop for two years to learn how to use busoushoku,but sanji casually learned how to do it without even know about its existence,right

He didn't know he was using it how would you explain Asura and DJ then Sanji has no DF and Zoro has no DF

Saf4

@Babypimp93:

He didn't know he was using it how would you explain Asura and DJ then Sanji has no DF and Zoro has no DF

From wiki:
Diable Jambe, the power to heat his lower legs to a temperature so high that they glow bright red, by spinning rapidly in place, which causes his attack to be more powerful
–---------------------------------------
During his battle against Kaku, Zoro manages to unlock a new swordstyle known as "Kyutoryu", which gives him the appearance of having six arms and three heads, like the deity Asura, when activating the technique"Kiki Kyutoryu: Asura". He also becomes surrounded by a dark aura while in this state, and the first time he achieved it, the ground shook and numerous holes appeared in it.
This ability also allows Zoro to utilize nine swords in combat to effectively triple his potential as a swordsman, and it is usually used as a very powerful finishing move. What this ability is, how Zoro attained it, and the exact nature of this style is currently unknown, but Kaku suggested that it was an illusion created by Zoro's spirit.

So, why did you call those abilities as haki? Did you call every strange ability that not come from a DF power as haki?

zxcv11791

I figured Zoro's Asura was a result of his cursed blade.

The power to cut through steel hearing the "breath" of things I thought was similar enough to haki.

Saf4

It does have a similarity. I think haki ( I mean KH) is the advanced level of that ability.

Maju

@Babypimp93:

He didn't know he was using it how would you explain Asura and DJ then Sanji has no DF and Zoro has no DF

exactly what type of haki would explain asura?
the suspension of disbelief that we need to accept sanji's diable jambe (especially since the timeskip ,since he can now activate it without even spinning),but also asura, has already been exposed multiple times.That's not a good reason to try to bind everything to haki though

busoushoku is not the kind o haki you can use without knowing,since you have to willingly "paint" a designated limb with haki to use it..it's not like kenbunshoku where you just "hear" or "sense" voices,and it can happen even if you don't want it.

Babypimp93

@Maju:

exactly what type of haki would explain asura?
the suspension of disbelief that we need to accept sanji's diable jambe (especially since the timeskip ,since he can now activate it without even spinning),but also asura, has already been exposed multiple times.That's not a good reason to try to bind everything to haki though

busoushoku is not the kind o haki you can use without knowing,since you have to willingly "paint" a designated limb with haki to use it..it's not like kenbunshoku where you just "hear" or "sense" voices,and it can happen even if you don't want it.

Sanji and Zoro can manifest their spirit their spirit in battle

Definition of from Op wikia -Busoshoku Haki, which allows the user to use their spirit as armor to defend against attacks or to make their own attacks more potent; and

Zoro demon spirit=Asura
Sanji's cooking spice spirit=Diable Jambe

Zoro asura is not an illusion all those arms are real and so is sanji fire

Shadowgreed

@Babypimp93:

Sanji and Zoro can manifest their spirit their spirit in battle

Definition of from Op wikia -Busoshoku Haki, which allows the user to use their spirit as armor to defend against attacks or to make their own attacks more potent; and

Zoro demon spirit=Asura
Sanji's cooking spice spirit=Diable Jambe

Zoro asura is not an illusion all those arms are real and so is sanji fire

Since when can Sanji manifest his spirit?

Babypimp93

@Shadowgreed:

Since when can Sanji manifest his spirit?

How would you explain hells memories and asura these 2 guys don't have DF's they are manifesting their spirits to create new abilities or because Asura and DJ are not illusions they are real and they hurt

Shadowgreed

@Babypimp93:

How would you explain hells memories and asura these 2 guys don't have DF's they are manifesting their spirits to create new abilities or because Asura and DJ are not illusions they are real and they hurt

Asura is the manifestation of Zoro's soul and it may have something to do with his swords and Sanji DJ is all about friction.

Babypimp93

@Shadowgreed:

Asura is the manifestation of Zoro's soul and it may have something to do with his swords and Sanji DJ is all about friction.

Friction?Sanji hasn't been spinning to use DJ post timeskip and how can you use friction with your whole body. Its Sanji soul manifested in the form of fire

Maju

@Babypimp93:

Friction?Sanji hasn't been spinning to use DJ post timeskip and how can you use friction with your whole body. Its Sanji soul manifested in the form of fire

it's like you are reading another manga than the rest of us

Babypimp93

@Maju:

it's like you are reading another manga than the rest of us

Nope I'm reading the same manga but when things doesn't always makes sense in OP is usually haki.

1)How is Jinbe able to generate water in the palm of his hands from no where
2)How is Law able to use counter shock without the use of his room being up
3)How is Zoro able to use Asura and make an illusion real
4)How is Sanji able to use Hells memorie and DJ but he doesn't get burned

You have to add two and two together Maju if arnament haki is basically spiritual armour that means arnament haki is spiritual base and users with arnament haki can use attacks based on their specified spirit type

Zoro demon spirit
Sanji cooking spirit

There are no other possible ways to explain these stuff you might want to say it friction with Sanji but his whole body is on fire and his skin hasn't burned so its spiritual and it doesn't affect the user

Maju

@Babypimp93:

Nope I'm reading the same manga but when things doesn't always makes sense in OP is usually haki.

1)How is Jinbe able to generate water in the palm of his hands from no where
2)How is Law able to use counter shock without the use of his room being up
3)How is Zoro able to use Asura and make an illusion real
4)How is Sanji able to use Hells memorie and DJ but he doesn't get burned

You have to add two and two together Maju if arnament haki is basically spiritual armour that means arnament haki is spiritual base and users with arnament haki can use attacks based on their specified spirit type

Zoro demon spirit
Sanji cooking spirit

There are no other possible ways to explain these stuff you might want to say it friction with Sanji but his whole body is on fire and his skin hasn't burned so its spiritual and it doesn't affect the user

don't you think that if such possibilities wuth haki were avaiable,rayleight would have talked about them when he basically explained what haki is all about?both asura and DJ were already in the story,so don't include them doesn't make the least bit of sense.you are the only one thinking that 'everything that it's not a devil fruit is haki',but there are no hints whatsoever in the manga that suggest that

King Cannon

@Babypimp93:

Nope I'm reading the same manga but when things doesn't always makes sense in OP is usually haki.

1)How is Jinbe able to generate water in the palm of his hands from no where
2)How is Law able to use counter shock without the use of his room being up
3)How is Zoro able to use Asura and make an illusion real
4)How is Sanji able to use Hells memorie and DJ but he doesn't get burned

You have to add two and two together Maju if arnament haki is basically spiritual armour that means arnament haki is spiritual base and users with arnament haki can use attacks based on their specified spirit type

Zoro demon spirit
Sanji cooking spirit

There are no other possible ways to explain these stuff you might want to say it friction with Sanji but his whole body is on fire and his skin hasn't burned so its spiritual and it doesn't affect the user

Shadowgreed

@Babypimp93:

Friction?Sanji hasn't been spinning to use DJ post timeskip and how can you use friction with your whole body. Its Sanji soul manifested in the form of fire

So Oda has to show you Sanji spinning every time he's going use Diable Jimbe?

Babypimp93

@Maju:

don't you think that if such possibilities wuth haki were avaiable,rayleight would have talked about them when he basically explained what haki is all about?both asura and DJ were already in the story,so don't include them doesn't make the least bit of sense.you are the only one thinking that 'everything that it's not a devil fruit is haki',but there are no hints whatsoever in the manga that suggest that

We don't know what Rayleigh explained to Luffy don't forget Luffy was on that island for 2 years. Just look at DF in general we still don't know everything about DF's and we are 700 chapters in. Why would Oda give us everything about haki. When Law asked DD who all had haki in his crew Luffy said Sanji and Zoro because he knows about DJ and Asura and they are haki based techniques

@Shadowgreed:

So Oda has to show you Sanji spinning every time he's going use Diable Jimbe?

Yes he was too if he wants to be consistent with it being friction based. Why hasn't he spinned because its not fraction based its spiritual and soul related

Shadowgreed

@Babypimp93:

Yes he was too if he wants to be consistent with it being friction based. Why hasn't he spinned because its not fraction based its spiritual and soul related

benjamminbrown

@Babypimp93:

Yes he was too if he wants to be consistent with it being friction based. Why hasn't he spinned because its not fraction based its spiritual and soul related

There is air friction, you know. It's what makes things burn up when they enter Earth's atmosphere.
I don't know if this is what Oda's been going for, but I've been imagining that Sanji's kicks are so fast that they create fire from air friction alone (post timeskip).

Babypimp93

@benjamminbrown:

There is air friction, you know. It's what makes things burn up when they enter Earth's atmosphere.
I don't know if this is what Oda's been going for, but I've been imagining that Sanji's kicks are so fast that they create fire from air friction alone (post timeskip).

It not only his kicks Benjamin his whole body is on fire in hells memories

Shadowgreed

@Babypimp93:

It not only his kicks Benjamin his whole body is on fire in hells memories

What exactly is your problem with Sanji? Too much fire or does he needs more?

Maju

@Babypimp93:

We don't know what Rayleigh explained to Luffy don't forget Luffy was on that island for 2 years.

we were there when he explained him the three types of haki and what they can do..no mention about fire,demon or cooking spirit

Just look at DF in general we still don't know everything about DF's and we are 700 chapters in. Why would Oda give us everything about haki. When Law asked DD who all had haki in his crew Luffy said Sanji and Zoro because he knows about DJ and Asura and they are haki based techniques

diamble jambe and asursa were already part of the story,if there was more to explain about them,oda would have showed it,just like he showed eneru using mantra,the boa sisters using kenbunshoku and haoshoku etc…
i could understand your point of view if asura and diable jambe were not yet in the story,so that keeping those application a secret would make sense,but since they were in the manga since enies lobby,and rayleight explanation was a tutorial both for luffy and the reader,i don't really see why we should believe that those 2 tecniques have anything to do with haki...especially since they are not the first tecnique that is not haki in the manga..take the rokushiki for example.

Saf4

@Babypimp93:

Nope I'm reading the same manga but when things doesn't always makes sense in OP is usually haki.

1)How is Jinbe able to generate water in the palm of his hands from no where

Fishman Karate

I tought it has been explained by Jinbe in fisman island arc.

Beowulf89

We've yet to see Zoro explain how Asura works. When the move debuted, Kaku said that it was an illusion created by his battle lust or something along those lines. We've seen Zoro manifest auras in the past, but up until Asura, they were more along the lines of visual short hand. Asura was obviously something different.

Speculating on it is much more difficult, but as a guess, I might suggest that it actually is a haki technique, that takes one of his battle auras, and then gives it substance. But it just seems SO out of left field considering the rest of the series, that I don't want to believe it. For a time I thought it might have to do with Zoro's cursed sword, that maybe the guy who made it had a Devil Fruit power, but DF fruit effects should wear off if the user is knocked out or killed, and I find it difficult to believe that the sword smith who made the cursed sword was never, say, black out drunk.

And we've seen a lot of people with martial arts training incorporate fire into their attacks in nonsensical ways. Kumadori was able to ignite the base of his staff, Lucci could use friction to fire off burning shigans, one of Boa's sisters lit herself on fire, Pearl's whole gimmick after his armor, is lighting himself on fire… It's definitely a thing in this series.