Confession Session - LOCK THIS THREAD

THE SEA

@Insider2000:

Not quite. Those were done out of selfish whim. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I wouldn't say all of those are sins, but all of those are wrong. Maybe you won't go to Hell for some of them (that last one, you probably would), but they won't exactly make Heaven a cake walk either.

And before you ask, yes, I have a feeling I'd commit the first and third of those if I had to.

EDIT: Again, I'm agnostic. I'm pulling this out of my ass and general background knowledge here.

Well, here are some trickier situations: Your friend insist on negotiating peace when you think violence is the only method to deal with barbarian tyrants. He then threatens to take your life because he thinks if he kills you he can save many lives. Then you ended up killing him and his supporters to carry on the revolution because you think more people would die otherwise. If you die before you know you were wrong and he was right and before that you killed half the nation in the process with good will. Well, would you go to hell or heaven then? Wait, let me think of and remember something else.
There are right and wrong. But just because you are wrong doesn't mean you have evil intention. However you can end up eliminating mankind because of mis-belief.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

To quote Oscar Wilde: There is no sin except stupidity.
EDIT: well, you will know what it is about when I am done drawing it.

trappedolphin

hey Akumu :) I agree with many of the points that people like Chrissie and Femme have raised. I'm a Christian myself, but I don't have all the answers either. All I can say is that Christianity to me is indeed not a religion of fear, but one focused on love, faith, and hope. I know that there's a lot of confusion, and I may be stepping out of my bounds or offending someone, but I don't know, have you tried just… seeking God? You don't have to start by going to church and hanging out with Christians, you could just stay in the privacy of your own room and try talking to God, like you would to a friend. Feel free to tell Him all your doubts and worries and even fears - He's not as far away as we sometimes feel, and He does understand that a lot of things might be difficult to accept. I believe that God would not condemn us for having doubts or uncertainties. And when you start being honest and open, I believe that that would allow Him to speak to you and maybe show you what you've been looking for.

From my own personal experience - because everybody has doubts and difficulties believing sometimes - what keeps me going and believing is not having the answers to all my questions, but simply experiencing and encountering my God in such an undeniable, tangible, and beautiful way, where His love and mercy is revealed to me. :) I can't say that it would give you concrete answers to all your questions, but it's a very comforting and reassuring experience. Sometimes I feel intimidated myself, but I've learned that if I set that aside and try praying to Him, I always find God with nothing but love and mercy. :)

I know that this isn't very coherent or eloquent, but I hope at least some of it makes sense to you. I hope you find peace soon :)

THE SEA

Ignorance is bliss. But it is a very fragile kind of bliss. It shatters really fast when reality punches you in the face.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I guess I am really different from many people here. When I read the " I miss.... insert childhood memory?" thread, I saw many people say they miss their childhood when they were innocent and didn't have to shoulder responsibility. I never experienced this. Well, actually, I did, for short period of time but found a reason to live more positively toward the future. As a kid, I was always eager to be adult. And as a young adult, I am eager to be more of an adult. Not in body, but in mind. I am too ambitious. But because of that, I am never desperate, never tired of living. Not yet, anyway.

The Innocence of a child is Ignorance. A blissful ignorance. Many people soft of want to remain ignorant like that. They are envious of that ignorance. They want to live in a world where they can maintain that ignorance forever. They are afraid of dealing with reality, afraid of facing it. They feel terrified when they see one harsh aspect of the world. They feel terrified of themselves. I never actually experienced that fear. I want to know truth, no matter how horrifying, no matter how terrible, no matter how ugly. I don't want my happiness to be the blissful, fragile ignorance of a child.

Many people consider their childhood to be the happiest of their lives. I had a happy childhood, and thing are far harsher now, but I don't feel a shred of pain leaving my childhood behind. Responsibility is also an interesting experience to me. I messed up many times and experienced many terrible things, but they are all useful and fascinating experiences to me.

dasia

@Akumu:

Hidden because it is incredibly long.
[hide]The problem is I wasn't even introduced until I was about eight and my dad married my step mother. And then it wasn't ever really something I wanted to do, it was something I had to do. I read the Bible cover to cover, went to church every Sunday, and attended Sunday school, but not once did I ever feel any sort of connection to God. As of now I haven't even been to church in four or five years. I can't even remember the last time I went. My friends are all Christian and have encouraged me to come with them to their services, but I can't even get near one without feeling incredibly uncomfortable. The one time I stepped into one this past year I felt so out of place and I almost got the sense that I didn't belong there, and all I was doing was watching Hitch with my girlfriend and her Sunday school group. I don't think I;ve ever felt more out of place in my entire life.

I know I'm just rambling, but I can't really get down what I want to say.

One of the things that aggravates me that I was taught that my whole life was already planned, that I God knew exactly what I was going to do.

I was also taught that if I sinned I was going to Hell.

Once when I was about 10 I asked my dad why God would let people go to Hell if they had no choice with where their life went. If everything we are doing is already planned by a higher power why should we have to suffer for it? He had no answer for me.

I still ask that question today, and I have never gotten a straight answer out of anyone.

I guess that's my biggest problem with Christianity.

Wait no, this is: it has also been said to me that it doesn't matter how much you've sinned, for if you beg for forgiveness and truly mean it, then you can get into heaven. That just seems a little odd to me. It was my girlfriend who told me this when I first brought this up with her, the response I wanted to have was "So if Hitler was truly regretful for what he had done and begged forgiveness from God would he have gone to heaven?"

I didn't ask her because she has such fantastic faith and I would never do anything to challenge it. It already hurts her enough that she hasn't been able to help me.

The last problem I have is the belief in missions to convert people to Christianity. Just as Christians believe their religion to be right, so does everyone else who has some form of Faith. Yet the last church I went to had the belief that it was our Christian duty to convert everyone who worshiped a different religion because theirs was wrong. That infuriated me to no end, and it still does.

I guess what I'm looking for is some way to let go of my fear of hell and just be able to live life without the fear of eternal damnation. Realistically, where I am right now, I see no way of being able to restore the faith I sort of had. Maybe later in my life but not right now. And I know I will be happier if I can relinquish that fear of eternal damnation.
So how can I do that?
I know it's sort of foolish asking for answer like this on the internet but the only person I trust enough to ask is my girlfriend, and well, that would be awkward all things considered…[/hide]

[hide]
I am a catholic, born in it. Around my late teens I grew very skeptical of my religion and today very much am towards the clergy etc. But I’ve chosen to believe there is a God so what I try to do is to build my own relationship with Him. I pick up my bible (every now and then >>) and chose what I want to believe in, what I don’t for X and Y reasons and explain to Him why, see what ’inspiration’ I get in return. As for my praying (every now and then >>) it’s very informal, like a conversation you would have with no one else. To know that I decide my own relationship with God has very much helped my attitude to going to Church (when I occasionally step inside one >>) it dsn’t feel anymore as if I’m being imposed something from above.I listen to the priests but am there primarily to talk to Him. Sunday school etc I don’t do that lol. But I’m not constantly scared to go to hell because I don’t strictly follow my religion’s rules and I sin. I sin and ask for forgiveness and get angry at myself and the system for allowing this ‘going around in circles’. But it is because it so ‘easy’ it is this frustration that motivates me to get better at not weakly sinning especially when I remember Jesus gave his freaking life away yet fast-forward to centuries later and I’m still doing the same shit. Yes I often think that if the world were to end today I’m not going to Heaven, Yes I imagine burning in Hell for eternity but this fear dsn’t take over. As long as my resolve to improve and better myself becomes a bit stronger every time (though there are highs and lows) I sin, as long as help myself first then feel like I can ask God to help me in doing so, as long as I see small improvements through my actions, I know am doing efforts and therefore building my case for heaven loll. How do you imagine Heaven and Hell by the way this may be helpful, try to ‘relax’ your visions of it especially heaven. I mean my imagery for heaven has a lot of nonsense in it even one thing I’ve borrowed from anime for e.g. the souls becoming little clouds for instance, the guards arguing and the long messy queues. It is naïve but perhaps it will help with easing your fear you shouldn’t be scared all the time especially if you’re trying however small that trying is. And NO no no not everyone needs to convert to christianism or any other religion I really dislike all that knocking on people’s doors ect but I’ ve never come across or belonged to such pushy Church in my life. Also I dn’t believe anything is predetermined sure God can have projects for you or whatever but first of all you have the freedom to make your own choice and good or bad face the consequences of your actions with God’s judgement later that’s all. Not much I’m giving you here just my experience ,you got good advice from the members coming from different standpoints, good luck with your decisions.[/hide]

Chrissie

@THE:

I am sorry but that's a naive point of view. Life would be so simple if we can live like that.
My solution is to live beyond good and evil. Or at least, the Christian definition of good and evil. Speaking in a Nietzsche's manner.
Would you kill many people to save one good person? Would you kill one good persons to save many good people? Would you do holocaust upon another mankind to save this mankind? Would you kill your family to prevent them from harming the people of your country? Would you commit adultery for love? And the people who are fighting in Libya right now, brothers and sisters are killing each other, people who speak the same language, worship the same god are raising their guns against each other, who are the sinners? We deal with hard choices in real life all the time, who are to judge us when we make a wrong decision?
And even the situation above are pretty simple when we use the word good and bad.
http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=30772&p=2206350&viewfull=1#post2206350

Uhhh I think you took it in a wrong way because I was talking about Akumu's problem of fearing punishment for hell. I thought you knew me better than that to assume I was talking about all the problems of the world being solved by being a good person though that helps with most.
As for your questions, I'll answer them for fun. Personally I wouldn't kill anyone. Not even to save myself. If I killed another person even by mistake, I'd go mad. No one in my opinion should have the right to remove another life anyway. And I'd rather take a divorce if I fell in love with another person, than to commit adultery since it's not something I'd like to happen to myself. The sinners in Libya are the ones who caused the fight. And we all know it's basically that whacko who is still in power and won't give up his position and the Libyan people their rights.
You judge what's good and what's bad yourself. You don't sit and wait for someone to tell you that kicking a puppy is a cruel thing to do. If you can't do that much then a. You are insane and shouldn't be running around with those guns in your hands, b. You are incapable of logical and ethical thinking c. You are incapable of critical thinking, which leads me to the conclusion that your educational system and the way society raised you, sucked ass.
How I see it, a good human being is someone who respects others and their rights and doesn't step all over them (as we all should know your rights end where another's begin), does his/her best to help the society s/he lives in move forward and s/he helps others in need.
We of course aren't perfect. No one is. Even I might hurt someone. This is where the best part comes in tho! The fun thing about life! You work on becoming 'perfect'. On becoming a better person. You pick one flow at the time to fix. Of course you also have to be mature enough to spot and accept your flows to work on them. I was an impatient, easy to anger teenager. It took me two years to slap myself around and to become more patient and calm because I realized it wasn't a very nice thing to the people around me. I still might snap at people but I am working harder and harder on not doing it and on beating down some of my pride to apologize to them when I do. Because that in my opinion would be the nicer thing to do and that would be the way I'd like to be treated myself.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

Personally I wouldn't kill anyone. Not even to save myself.

Sure. But what if:
A) If you die, a lot of people will die with you for some reason, and you either kill your opponent or he will kill you. For some reason, your life and you ability hold a great importance that is tied with many lives.
B) If you don't kill that person, he will kill someone you love more than yourself. Or many people you love more than yourself. Sometime it take courage to go to hell in order for other people to live happily. Is that not a great selflessness?
C) That person is tortured psychologically and the only way to save him from committing further crime, and to save his soul, is to kill him. Lest him go to hell.
D) That person wants a painless death rather than a painful death and he will die soon anyway and for some reason he has to be killed by you and you only.
Hell, let me tell you a story. When the Pol Pot attacked a Vietnamese village, the villagers had to hide in a cave. The Pol Pol troops go investigate there, and a woman had to kill her new-born child otherwise his/her cry would tell the Pol Pol their position and they would be all slaughtered. In the end they survived to tell us about the Pol Pot's crime.

If I killed another person even by mistake, I'd go mad.

What if you shoulder a great responsibility that compel you to remain sane and smile in front of people?

The sinners in Libya are the ones who caused the fight.

Yes, and if we think we have no right to remove any other life, we wouldn't start a fight, a revolution.

No one in my opinion should have the right to remove another life anyway.

And we all know it's basically that whacko who is still in power and won't give up his position and the Libyan people their rights.

He is dead.

I am a bit busy so I will reply further.

Chrissie

@THE:

Sure. But what if:
A) If you die, a lot of people will die with you for some reason, and you either kill your opponent or he will kill you. For some reason, your life and you ability hold a great importance that is tied with many lives.

Well damn cuz I am dead meat! 'Xept if I manage to find a way to knock him out and tie him up~

B) If you don't kill that person, he will kill someone you love more than yourself. Or many people you love more than yourself. Sometime it take courage to go to hell in order for other people to live happily.

Can't I just knock the damn whacko out already?

C) That person is tortured psychologically and the only way to save him from committing further crime, and to save his soul, is to kill him. Lest him go to hell.

Who am I to take matter in my own hands and kill a person who needs help. Killing him is the easy, 'quick' and cowardly way to end things. There is not only one way to face things Sea. There NEVER is only one way.

D) That person want a painless death rather than a painful death and he will die soon anyway.

And again, why would I want to kill him? And if he wants to die a painless death, then asking a kindergarten school teacher to help him, is pretty much the wrong and stupid thing to do. What would I be able to do? Choke him? Doesn't sound painless. Stab him? Doesn't sound painless~ Toss him off a cliff? Dooooesn't sound painless! Shoot him? Painless? Nah.

Hell, let me tell you a story. When the Pol Pot attacked a Vietnamese village, the villagers had to hide in a cave. The Pol Pol troops go investigate there, and a woman has to kill her new-born child otherwise its cry would tell the Pol Pol their position. In the end they survived.

Wow. Don't expect me to applause her. There are easier ways to make a new-born to shut up than killing it. What she did might be considered heroic. It shouldn't be considered right because it wasn't. Really, what happened to her after?

What if you shoulder a great responsibility that compel you to remain sane and smile in front of people?

I wouldn't be able to do it. I am an open book. And sanity is not something you can keep me thinks. If you lose it then you lose it.

Yes, and if we think we have no right to remove any other life, we wouldn't start a fight, a revolution.

And if everyone respected each other's rights, there would be no need for fighting and revolutions. Don't take me wrong. I think fighting to protect and earn back your rights is justified. But that doesn't make killing right. I am against that phrase that says "Purpose justifies the means." I think it's a phrase made by people who made bad things for good reasons and wanted to feel better for themselves. To be able to live with the guilt better. But that ain't right. You murdered someone to save someone else? Alright. I get it. Good for you. But accept what you did is still bad. Don't put some pretty paint on the shit you did and call it art.

He is dead.

Literally? :wassat: Or you mean he is dead the minute the rebels get their hands on him?

Nami

I can understand were Chrissie comes from.

When I tell others about the abuse from my past, they all react the same "That piece of shit should die for all the sins he comitted!" Honestly? I don't think he should die. Yes, he has done horrible things to me and I suffered (and probably still suffer) from it, but for me this still doesn't justify death. He should go to prison for that (which will perhaps never happen) but most importantly, he should get treatment. Psychologists should take care of him.
You know what? If he'd come up to me and would honestly apologise to me, I would forgive him. Just like that.
There is nothing I could win from him being dead. Then he's dead but the pain I feel, will still be there. The things he did, will not be undone by his dead. You can't change the past with death.

On the other hand. If someone would rob me and would want to kill me to destroy every evidence… I would fight for my life and if this means I have to wound or even kill him, then I would do this.
If my dad would need a new heart and my heart would be the right one, I'd gladly give him my heart and die for this. Yes, of course this will never happen, cause yeah, doctors don't kill another human to heal another. But just IF I could, I would.

THE SEA

And again, why would I want to kill him? And if he wants to die a painless death, then asking a kindergarten school teacher to help him, is pretty much the wrong and stupid thing to do. What would I be able to do? Choke him? Doesn't sound painless. Stab him? Doesn't sound painless~ Toss him off a cliff? Dooooesn't sound painless! Shoot him? Painless? Nah.

I was asking you to put yourself into someone else's situation. The point is, if you can live out your life without having to be put into a situation to kill, you are lucky.
And yes, choke him might not be so painless but it's better than letting him endure the unendurable pain for another 2 months for example. Better shoot him.
To quote Nietzsche: One has only seen little of life, if one hasn't also seen the hand that mercifully — kills.

Well damn cuz I am dead meat! 'Xept if I manage to find a way to knock him out and tie him up~

That's too idealistic. Life is not so simple. In the heat of the battle you might even kill people without intention to do so. We are human, and our ability is limited. In many fight we can only either kill or get killed. And in some situations, if you let yourself get killed it also mean you indirectly kill some other.

Can't I just knock the damn whacko out already?

You can't. That is called a situation.

Who am I to take matter in my own hands and kill a person who needs help. Killing him is the easy, 'quick' and cowardly way to end things. There is not only one way to face things Sea. There NEVER is only one way.

You might spend your whole life seeking an answer for a question and never find it. What makes you think you can always find the right solution in the right time? Well, that is what tragic.
The situation there is only two ways, or human ability is incapable to thinking another solution.

Wow. Don't expect me to applause her. There are easier ways to make a new-born to shut up than killing it. What she did might be considered heroic. It shouldn't be considered right because it wasn't. Really, what happened to her after?

I don't remember how old is that kid. But if you knock the kid off and he/she suddenly wake up and cry, they are all dead. It didn't just happen in a few minutes, but hours. You have to block his/her nose so it can't breathe if you don't want it to cry, and the result is the kid died.

I wouldn't be able to do it. I am an open book. And sanity is not something you can keep me thinks. If you lose it then you lose it.

That is why responsibility is goddamn hard.
@Chrissie:

And if everyone respected each other's rights, there would be no need for fighting and revolutions. Don't take me wrong. I think fighting to protect and earn back your rights is justified. But that doesn't make killing right.

I think it takes courage to be wrong for other's sake.
Life is harsh because we can't always choose to be right.

Chrissie

@Nami:

I can understand were Chrissie comes from.

When I tell others about the abuse from my past, they all react the same "That piece of shit should die for all the sins he comitted!" Honestly? I don't think he should die. Yes, he has done horrible things to me and I suffered (and probably still suffer) from it, but for me this still doesn't justify death. He should go to prison for that (which will perhaps never happen) but most importantly, he should get treatment. Psychologists should take care of him.
You know what? If he'd come up to me and would honestly apologise to me, I would forgive him. Just like that.
There is nothing I could win from him being dead. Then he's dead but the pain I feel, will still be there. The things he did, will not be undone by his dead. You can't change the past with death.

I know how you feel on this matter and I agree with what you said 100%. I'd prefer an apology more than anything else.

If my dad would need a new heart and my heart would be the right one, I'd gladly give him my heart and die for this. Yes, of course this will never happen, cause yeah, doctors don't kill another human to heal another. But just IF I could, I would.

I would gladly give my life for another person. I just don't think I would be able to take a life for me or another person. If I did, what would drive me mad, would be the guilt I would feel for as long as I was alive.

THE SEA

You can't change the past with death.

But you can change the future with death.

Nami

@THE:

But you can change the future with death.

you can also change the future with treatment.

And don't you dare tell me that death is a solution in this situation I explained. Because you honestly have no right to judge my opinion in this matter.

THE SEA

@Nami:

you can also change the future with treatment.

The point is sometime we can't have that choice.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=31746&p=2111638&viewfull=1#post2111638
He killed 3 men. Killing is not right. But he is awesome.
According to Buddhism he would be reincarnated into another human life with good luck because he did something similar to a previous life of the Buddha, who killed a bunch of bandits and said:"Even if I must go to hell, I won't let these bandits kill the village". According to Christianity, he might to hell if he never regrets it, or I have wrong knowledge about Christianity.

Chrissie

@THE:

I was asking you to put yourself into someone else's situation. The point is, if you can live out your life without having to be put into a situation to kill, you are lucky. But that also mean you have seen little of life.

And yes, choke him might not be so painless but it's better than letting him endure the unendurable pain for another 2 months for example. Better shoot him.
To quote Nietzsche: One has only seen little of life, if one hasn't also seen the hand that mercifully — kills.

Um… that's a more than naive view. Sorry man, but it is. I could counter that with 'you have seen little of life if you didn't find yourself in a situation where you wanted to die'. And I've been there. Quite a lot of times. For actually good reasons. Not a 'Omg angst I wanna kill myself because life sucks -Boohooohooo' reason. Don't care if Nietzsche said that if you didn't attempt murder you didn't experience much of life. That is so… blind and unfair for people who've been in the worst kind of situations through their entire life but never once murdered to get out of their problems even if murder would've saved them a lot of trouble.

That's too idealistic. Life is not so simple. In the heat of the battle you might even kill people without intention to do so. We are human, and our ability is limited. In many fight we can only either kill or get killed. And in some situations, if you let yourself get killed it also mean you indirectly kill some other.

And as I said. IF I killed someone even BY MISTAKE, I would go mad.

You can't. That is called a situation.

And in a situation different people, react in different ways. There. Is. Never. One. Way.

I don't remember how old is that kid. But if you knock the kid off and he/she suddenly wake up and cry, they are all dead. the story don't just happen in a few minutes, but hours. You have to block his/her nose so it can't breathe if you don't want it to cry, and the result is the kid died.

So she basically didn't mean to kill her child? I am confused here. Also she killed her child. What happened to her next? Did she live happily ever after you think? Do you think people who have killed before because the situation called for it, lived happily ever after? Do you think that soldiers who have killed want to be called heroes and sleep like babies at nights? THAT is idealistic. You might admire someone from afar for their heroic actions but have you ever thought if they want to be admired for what they did?

That is why responsibility is goddamn hard.

I think it takes courage to be wrong for other's sake.
Life is harsh because we can't always choose to be right.

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. A person has to act like they are peachy after killing someone because others shouldn't see them break down? That's not much human like.. I'd think more of a person who cried for a life they took, than a person who wore a stony face and acted all brave and proud for what they did.

No. You can choose to be right. It's up to you. That's why it's called a choice. If you choose to be wrong, then you better damn accept what you did is wrong and not act as if it's not. That's cowardly and you are only doing it to feel better.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

Um… that's a more than naive view. Sorry man, but it is. I could counter that with 'you have seen little of life if you didn't find yourself in a situation where you wanted to die'. And I've been there. Quite a lot of times. For actually good reasons. Not a 'Omg angst I wanna kill myself because life sucks -Boohooohooo' reason. Don't care if Nietzsche said that if you didn't attempt murder you didn't experience much of life. That is so… blind and unfair for people who've been in the worst kind of situations through their entire life but never once murdered to get out of their problems even if murder would've saved them a lot of trouble.

I am sorry I said something I didn't mean to. What I and Nietzsche mean is, if you haven't seen anyone mercy-kill, you have seen little. Not: "if you haven't mercy-killed, you have seen little".
I am a little busy, I will reply more later.

Chrissie

@THE:

I am sorry I said something I didn't mean to. What I and Nietzsche mean is, if you haven't seen anyone mercy-kill, you have seen little. Not: "if you haven't mercy-killed, you have seen little".
I am a little busy, I will reply more later.

Aaaahhhh. Well. I have.

THE SEA

Well, I think you misunderstand my philosophy.
Here is what I said:
@THE:

There are right and wrong. But just because you are wrong doesn't mean you have evil intention. However you can end up eliminating mankind because of mis-belief.

In response to this:
@Insider2000:

Well, the general idea is 'intention over action'.

As Chrissie mentioned, what good is a saint who performs good deeds because it allows them to go to Heaven? Why can't people do good deeds out of their own integrity and feeling of value in yourself and other people?

Same concept in reverse. We'll frown the person who kills out of cold blood, of course. But the person who killed a single GOOD soul to save several others, he is judged by his intentions and reasons for his actions.

So according to Christianity, a person who kills will end up in hell for eternity, no matter for what reason? Or if the person kills with good intention and regrets it, he won't to hell?

Chrissie

The second. You might act in a wrong way for a right reason or you might just do something bad. You won't be contemned for that if you recognize what you did wrong and regret it. That's what the whole asking for forgiveness thing is. If you are honestly asking for forgiveness, then you'll receive it.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

The second. You might act in a wrong way for a right reason or you might just do something bad. You won't be contemned for that if you recognize what you did wrong and regret it. That's what the whole asking for forgiveness thing is. If you are honestly asking for forgiveness, then you'll receive it.

Kenshiro will probably go to hell for eternity then.
So if a person dies before he can have a chance to ask for forgiveness, he will go to hell or there will be some judge to question him after his death? If there is, everyone in hell would beg for forgiveness.
If Hitler honestly begged for forgiveness, he can be forgiven and can go to heaven.
In Buddhism we can only atone a sinful deed with a good deed, not with begging. And killing to prevent killing with righteous intention is not judged as wrong, or at least some schools of Buddhism say so.

Chocula

Well, how would you define regret? If I killed someone to save my friends I wouldn't regret why I did it (because there was no other way). However, I would regret the fact that it had to come to this action. That somebody had to die through my hands and that I couldn't do anything else to save my friends.

So, if I regretted my actions but not my intentions, would I go to hell?

THE SEA

I reread the story about Pol Pot. Memory didn't serve me right. The village, over 70 people, hid in a cave. For many days. Without any food or water. There were 4 children. The kids were not new-born. But they were starving so they had to cry. Afraid of being revealed, their parents had to kill them. The oldest kid said he wouldn't cry anymore and begged his parent not to kill him, but they were afraid he could not control himself and would cry because he was too young, so in order to secure the whole village's safety, they blocked his nose and he died anyway.
I am not going to pass my judge upon them. I don't have the right. But that was their situation.

Chrissie

Kenshiro is a fictional character. =x

@Chocula I was talking about regretting the actions, not the intentions. If you are not regretting killing another human being, then you aren't exactly good, are you?

So if a person dies before he can have a chance to ask for forgiveness, he will go to hell or there will be some judge to question him after his death? If there is, everyone in hell would beg for forgiveness.

shrug When I die and learn what really happens next, I'll let you know. ;)
Would they beg for forgiveness because they regretted what they did, or because they just don't want to be in hell anymore?

Didn't Hitler kill himself? Suicide is also a sin, isn't it? :P

dasia

@THE:

So if a person dies before he can have a chance to ask for forgiveness, he will go to hell or there will be some judge to question him after his death? If there is, everyone in hell would beg for forgiveness.
If Hitler honestly begged for forgiveness, he can be forgiven and can go to heaven.
.

Sea there is a difference between 'honestly begging for forgiveness' and truly regretting what you have done and recognising deep down in your heart that it was plain wrong. It's not simply the act of begging that gets you to heaven. Now at the end of the day no one really knows how God exercises his judgement but I would like to believe that in a situation where wrong was done for good but is still wrong he is capable of moral justice and leniency in his judgement . Just like in a case of a dickhead like Hitler even if the guy genuinely regrets his actions, God may not forgive him for, the extent of the sin and death toll was too great . Or forgive him to an extent but still punish him. It's not all black and white. And if such guy regrets but genuinely grasps the extent of the atrocity he has commited he shouldn't even be suprised at the decision and be glad he is being forgiven to begin with, even if he gets punishment wathever that may be.

Smudger

@Bill:

Mace Windu a badass? He was literally one of the most boring characters in Star Wars IMO. In fact…

Funny thing is Darth's origin could have been covered in like a mini flashback in Return of the Jedi. Instead of fucking three whole films

The prequels ruins Bobba Fett by giving him a backstory, where he should just be mysterious character who's origin is left for viewer to decide.

Nice find Bill.

I laughed so hard at the chinese trade federation comment. Just so true on some of the empires races being portrayed as different earth races throughout that film.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

If you are not regretting killing another human being, then you aren't exactly good, are you?

I think I never said the opposite. So this point is done.

shrug When I die and learn what happens next, I'll let you know. ;)

Don't betray your promise you hear. Let me know in a dream.

Would they beg for forgiveness because they regretted what they did, or because they just don't want to be in hell anymore?

Well, if god is truly merciful, why doesn't he do something to make these people in hell realize they are wrong?

Didn't Hitler kill himself? Suicide is also a sin, isn't it? :P

I was speaking hypothetically. If there is someone who killed all people on Earth then truly regret it and honestly beg for forgiveness he can also go to heaven.

Chocula

@Chrissie:

shrug When I die and learn what really happens next, I'll let you know. ;)
Would they beg for forgiveness because they regretted what they did, or because they just don't want to be in hell anymore?

Well, since a god would be omnipotent, he knew if you regretted something or not.
@Chrissie:

Didn't Hitler kill himself? Suicide is also a sin, isn't it? :P

Honestly, declaring suicide a sin is juts filling a loophole. If it wasn't, everyone who truly believed in heaven would instantly commit suicide. I know that wasn't really your point, but still.

Chrissie

@THE:

Don't betray your promise you hear. Let me know in a dream.

I promise I'll make you scream like a girl. :devil:

Well, if god is truly merciful, why doesn't he do something to make these people in hell realize they are wrong?

Because then, they wouldn't really have free will. And that's kind of a bad thing.

I was speaking hypothetically. If there is someone who killed all people on Earth then truly regret it and honestly beg for forgiveness he can also go to heaven.

Yeah, basically.

Well, since a god would be omnipotent, he knew if you regretted something or not.

Yep.

Honestly, declaring suicide a sin is juts filling a loophole. If it wasn't, everyone who truly believed in heaven would instantly commit suicide. I know that wasn't really your point, but still.

Eh. I think committing suicide is the worst way to get away from your problems. You know, there are some Orthodox priests who won't accept to bury someone who committed suicide. I disagree with that attitude. My mom's cousin is not one of them thankfully but he is in the minority. =/ It's kind of sad..

Chocula

@Chrissie:

Eh. I think committing suicide is the worst way to get away from your problems. You know, there are some Orthodox priests who won't accept to bury someone who committed suicide. I disagree with that attitude. My mom's cousin is not one of them thankfully but he is in the minority. =/ It's kind of sad..

I know what you mean and of course I disagree with that attitude too. However, I wasn't talking about killing yourself because of problems but rather to get into heaven. There is not one reason why people who truly believe in heaven wouldn't kill themselves, if suicide wasn't a sin. I mean, I would do it instantly if I believed in a perfect afterlife.

Tsukishima

@Chocula:

Honestly, declaring suicide a sin is juts filling a loophole.

No. Most religion considers life as a gift of God, committing suicide is like refusing this gift, this is why it is forbidden.

And concerning the killing bla bla bla. Moses killed an Egyptian in Exodus and still went to Heaven.

THE SEA

Do you think Kenshiro is a good human being, Chrissie?

Chrissie

Sorry I was getting ready for the airport. Sexing myself up and all =P

He might be a good human being Sea, but his way of handling things isn't good. His intentions are good but killing people for them, bad or not, isn't good. I am not judging the person per see. I am judging the action.

THE SEA

What is the difference between killing the criminal yourself (direct murder) and sending him to prison so he can receive his death penalty (indirect murder) in this good-bad action sense? In the end, it is all murder.
What would you do if you catch a death row criminal?

Chrissie

I am pro-rotting in the jail for criminals actually. They might have a change of heart or something in there too. Killing them is kind of like taking their.. 'right' for lack of a better way to say it, to regret their crimes.

Plus killing them is too merciful. :ninja:

THE SEA

Again, it doesn't matter if you are pro or against death penalty. If you live in a country that has death penalty, sending a death row criminal to prison is as good an action as killing him. Should we regret the action of catching criminals then? Should the police not be proud of themselves for their action of catching criminal then?

Chrissie

@THE:

Again, it doesn't matter if you are pro or against death penalty. If you live in a country that has death penalty, sending a death row criminal to prison is as good an action as killing him. Should we regret catching criminals then? Should police not be proud of themselves for catching criminal then?

Did that person know the consequences of their actions? If the law of a country says "if I catch you doing this bad thing I am gonna sentence you to death", and you still do it, then it's pretty much your fault for being sentenced to death, isn't it? The police are doing their job. Of course they can be proud of themselves for capturing a criminal. It's not like they chose to sentence him to death tho. Heck if he shots at them, they have the right to shoot him dead.

I wouldn't. That's why I am not a soldier or a policeman. I am a teacher. Someone attacks me. I have the right to defend myself and kill that person. But personally, I don't think I have the guts to do so, nor would I want to do such thing. I'd rather use a pepper spray at his eyes.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

Did that person know the consequences of their actions? If the law of a country says "if I catch you doing this bad thing I am gonna sentence you to death", and you still do it, then it's pretty much your fault for being sentenced to death, isn't it? The police are doing their job. Of course they can be proud of themselves for capturing a criminal. It's not like they chose to sentence him to death.

But they chose to send him to death. There is no difference.
No difference between killing him and sending him to death.

Chrissie

They didn't chose to send him to his death. HE did with his actions.

Tsukishima

@THE:

If you live in a country that has death penalty, sending a death row criminal to prison is as good an action as killing him.

I don't think it's the same. The result will be his death, but your responsibility is different, you're not the one that decided his death in the second case. You just contributed to his arrestation, you're not the one who judge him or decide his punishment.

THE SEA

@Tsukishima:

you're not the one who judge him or decide his punishment.

I don't think so. A death row criminal who escape the prison. You know if you catch him, he will die. To decide to catch him is to decide to kill him. That is all.
–------
The result can be different if you build a huge basement beneath your house and keep the criminals you catch down there and feed them until the day they die.
But no, you don't have the ability to do that. Or don't choose to do that. You know they will be killed and you choose to send them to death. Or you have no choice, and should regret your inability. According to Christianity anyway.

Chrissie

And what if those criminals want a painless death rather than a long stay in your basement and thus they want to be captured? ;)

Sakonosolo

Oh, but didn't you hear? All forms of death penalty are inhumane and extremely painful.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

And what if those criminals want a painless death rather than a long stay in your basement and thus they want to be captured? ;)

Then why don't you grant him a painless death right away instead? Why let the executioner do the wrong action for you? Why don't you, say, lessen the sin of the executioner by doing it yourself, since it is all wrong action anyway?

Chrissie

@THE:

The result can be different if you build a huge basement beneath your house and keep the criminals you catch down there and feed them until the day they die.
But no, you don't have the ability to do that. Or don't choose to do that. You know they will be killed and you choose to send them to death. Or you have no choice, and should regret your inability. According to Christianity anyway.

If you don't want to capture criminals and send them to jail (which is what that basement thing is basically) or their death, then don't become a cop. I repeat. They acted on their own accordance. THEY chose their death. You are doing your job as a policeman. You are not sending people to their death. You are handing them over to your country's law. That's what your country commands you with its law.

I think you are taking things too absolute. So. I walk in the bus and there is no room for the next person to enter. They take the next bus and an accident happens and they die. Did I kill them? With the way you are putting things down it seems to me that I have.

Tsukishima

@THE:

Then why don't you grant him a painless death right away instead? Why let the executioner do the wrong action for you? Why don't you, say, lessen the sin of the executioner by doing it yourself, since it is all wrong action anyway?

There is a gradation of sin. Helping indirectly someone to kill another is not the same as killing someone.

Chrissie

@THE:

Then why don't you grant him a painless death right away instead? Why let the executioner do the wrong action for you? Why don't you, say, lessen the sin of the executioner by doing it yourself, since it is all wrong action anyway?

I wouldn't. That's why I am not a soldier or a policeman. I am a teacher. Someone attacks me. I have the right to defend myself and kill that person. But personally, I don't think I have the guts to do so, nor would I want to do such thing.

Because I am not the kind of person who could live with that.

I keep stating my personal reasons here again and again. Sheesh!
-I- wouldn't do it but I wouldn't think poorly of someone who did it. I would think poorly of the action but not the person.

THE SEA

@Chrissie:

I think you are taking things too absolute. So. I walk in the bus and there is no room for the next person to enter. They take the next bus and an accident happens and they die. Did I kill them? With the way you are putting things down it seems to me that I have.

You didn't kill them because you didn't know they will die. However, capturing a criminal who you know for sure will receive death penalty is no different than killing him.
You don't need to be a police. Imagine you have the ability of Spider-man or something, whatever, you get a chance to capture a criminal who you know will receive death penalty if he is sent to prison. What will you do?

Chrissie

@THE:

You didn't kill them because you didn't know they will die. However, capturing a criminal who you know for sure will receive death penalty is no different than killing him.
You don't need to be a police. Imagine you have the ability of Spider-man or something, whatever, you get a chance to capture a criminal who you know will receive death penalty if he is sent to prison. What will you do?

It is tho. It is VERY different. I'll turn him in like the law states I should, since if I don't he might repeat his crimes which if they must be quite horrible if they deserve the death penalty. That doesn't make me his killer though. Now if I let him free and he killed someone then THAT would make me a murderer as well.

If anything this should be considered suicide.

THE SEA

That doesn't make me his killer though.

That makes you one of his killers since you can keep him alive in your house like I said above. You could have saved a life, but you either don't have the ability or don't choose to do so, thus you send him to his death place instead. Should we feel regret about it?

Do you consider a person selfless if he kills all the free death row criminals in his city so that the city's executioner doesn't have to kill anyone thus commit no sin? He kills in order for the executioner not to feel unpleasant feeling or go to hell.

Tsukishima

The Sea, if you consider that it is the same, why would you want to kill him all by yourself? Why would you want to dirty your hand with his blood? Wouldn't it be better to let him be judged, and let him live a bit more?

Chrissie

@THE:

That makes you one of his killers since you can keep him alive in your house like I said above. You can save a life, but you either don't have the ability or don't choose to do so, thus you send him to his death place instead. Should we feel regret about it?

Do you consider a person selfless if he kills all the free death row criminals in his city so that the city's executioner doesn't have to kill anyone thus commit no sin? He kills in oder for the executioner not to feel unpleasant feeling or go to hell?

No. It doesn't. This person knows the consequences of his actions. Death. He basically choses to die by acting the way he does. The policeman's job isn't to protect criminals. The policeman's job is to turn them in to face the consequences of their actions. What they might be, is not his concern. That is the business of the judge. If the judge decides on death, then he is the one who is his killer along with the person himself who did those actions that lead him to his death. A policeman is but a tool of the law and should do what his job commands him/her.

Now I am off. Airport time~! Ta!