by everyone i meant every townie, of course.
One Piece Mafia
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Is there nothing i say that cant be turned against me. Lol :/
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by everyone i meant every townie, of course.
My PM didn't mention anything about chaos or whatnot :sad:
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and TMR vote count please
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That "don't worry" was just a general nod, I just meant "I know what I am doing, and I am doing it regardless"
then you know that it sounded very scummy how you said it.
As mette pointed out, day 02 was more suited to discuss any development on day 01. Plus when people actually had a change to GET participation role, why would they waste posts discussing town influence on MVP? Face it, Participation role is like a treasure box, we all want it. On day 2 everyone would be (as apparently planned by TMR) actively scumhunt to get that reward.
Fair point, you have me there. It still was useless talk at the time, which is why i was suspicious
And now answer me this, what else should have we discussed?
We could have been discussing the story that TMR gave us a little more, it's how i got my proposed mafia set-up.
This post should explain it all. If you are still not clear, read a few posts after and before.
http://www.apforums.net/showpost.php?p=2127873&postcount=671
All i see there and the other posts is that Holy is new and decided to give SuDoKu a chance, even though the rest of us know better. If your gonna attack him for rookie mistakes while he is a rookie, that doesn't sit well with me.
I don't mind you believing holy is town but saying me going after him is like me picking the whole town off is a bit strange considering the game we are playing. Am I not SUPPOSED to hunt for scum as I see fit?
i never said that you couldn't scum hunt as you see fit. I am just voicing my opinion on how it looks to me. Dont put words in my mouth Bear.
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… trying to move on, because it seems like Holy might not be mafia after all, which I'm still trying to recover from.
Massie... has been really really quiet. I know it seems like I'm jumping around, but I had some suspicions on him on Day 1, and his comments and lurkish actions today haven't exactly helped to bring them down. But he's been so inactive I really don't have much material on him :sad:
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tea?
I'd like some.
Nectar and mette I understand. Why Kina and Heart?
Hina, mostly because of the whole SUDK thing. She was targeting him and later when asked about it, denied this. She's been contradicting herself in some posts aswell. Also, in the beginning, she's been asking about certain roles, like to find out if there was a doctor.
Heart, because she's been playing the "lack of experience" card rather often, and yet makes some strong points in her posts. And the way she posts makes it seem like she's contributing a lot, with naming people and all, but if you reread her posts you'll notice they never really contain anything substantial.
As for Holy, I believe he is a townie. To me, he seems like one of those little dogs who bark like crazy for the slightest things but are still cute and harmless in a way. Sorry if that sounds weird Holy, at least I think you're innocent :) I suggest we don't lynch him.
Nectar remains my main villain, and if my earlier post convinced you, please vote lynch him instead of Holy.
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First of all, those words were NOT included in my PM, hence I said the wording is not as it should be. In fact, my PM didn't mention that at all, despite that, I understood what you meant.
Secondly, suppose you are a mafia and have a scum buddy who is novice. What advice would you give him/ her in this current situation? My first would be, "since town doesn't want to reveal, if you are targeted for lynch say something like, should I reveal my ability? and hope people think NO IMPORTANT ABILITIES SHOULD NOT BE OUTED OR NULLED. If they don't and ask you to reveal, pretty much reveal anything and then nullify. You can't be caught!!"
Thats what I was talking about, hope that made sense. In other words, that REALLY wasn't a secret IMO.
Oh well, guess we should wait for other townies too to see if they're having it or not. If some have, some don't, SGR got lazy, that's just all =P I just hope it's that and not something else. Anyways, I think it was some sort of thing exclusive to the town 'cause in the mafia PM can't say it would be harmful for the town. Even the Nullify paragraph mentions that it's harmful for the town only to reveal their abilities. It's either that they can copy them or once they find out about them they become immune to them (and in case of a healer, the mafia kill gets past the healing ability).
I guess if I were a mafia I would indeed agree that my suspected buddy would say that he'll reveal the ability and Nullify it 'cause it's not that useful but I would also be on his head on the mafia thread, just in case he'll get lynched, I'll look innocent. Anyways, if he was a scum willing so much to survive, he would have at least said his ability can be useful.
Anyways, like Trapped said, I guess we should move on…Now....where's Silent? She was looking forward to start the game.
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@Mrs.:
I'd like some.
[hide][/hide]
As for Holy, I believe he is a townie. To me, he seems like one of those little dogs who bark like crazy for the slightest things but are still cute and harmless in a way.
This has the most adorable imagery ever.
Nectar remains my main villain, and if my earlier post convinced you, please vote lynch him instead of Holy.
-takes a moment to reorganise her thoughts-
If Holy is town… then that gives a whole new perspective on Nectar's posts. which leads me to the conclusion that i can't lynch him today.
sigh.
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If Holy is town… then that gives a whole new perspective on Nectar's posts. which leads me to the conclusion that i can't lynch him today.
sigh.
Aaaannnddd therefoooreeeee, unvote your Holy lynch and vote lynch Nectar!
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i meant that i can't lynch Nectar today either.
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Oh, why not?
16 characters -
@Mrs.:
As for Holy, I believe he is a townie. To me, he seems like one of those little dogs who bark like crazy for the slightest things but are still cute and harmless in a way. Sorry if that sounds weird Holy, at least I think you're innocent :) I suggest we don't lynch him.
Nectar remains my main villain, and if my earlier post convinced you, please vote lynch him instead of Holy.
Rofl. Thanks for the hilarity!
In terms of Necter, it's an interesting theory, though I believe it's still to early to tell.
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Ah, and nice to see you joining the mafia game again, Eli!!! :D
Thanks :)
@Mrs.:
Heart, because she's been playing the "lack of experience" card rather often, and yet makes some strong points in her posts. And the way she posts makes it seem like she's contributing a lot, with naming people and all, but if you reread her posts you'll notice they never really contain anything substantial.
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I have been "playing" the lack of experience card for all the role talk. Nothing more. Don't try to make me say something I didn't.
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I'm glad you think I'm contributing. If I don't have tangible proofs to illustrate my point it's mostly because I listen to my instincts. Although, I think that, without posting a wall of text my theory against Nectar/Holy was valid.
And so, I still don't understand why Holy is (or was ?) backing up Nectar. TMR made it quite clearly that we shouldn't trust anymore. So far I think he is the only one who strongly supported another player and that, for me, means team-play. Since we (town) are all alone, against them this seems very scummy to me. Unskilled granted, but scummy.
In the previous game inactivity strikes were given. But what about this game ?
Isn't Bogart going to be modkilled at the end of the day ?I'd hate that we have inactive scums like in the previous game.
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GAH. I know that all suspicion on Holy should be pretty much cleared, but his buddying up with Nectar is so suspicious it's driving me insane. :/
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Hey guys, after the game ends, can you tell me what finally showed you my innocence? I'm interested to know.
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TMR made it quite clear that we shouldn't trust anyone*
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I still believe necter is innocent at this point
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What makes you believe it, Holy?
What did you think of his reaction (trying to strike that deal with me) earlier?
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Rookie mistake?? I don't get it. Why are people giving Holy the benefit of doubt?? If anyone wants me to retract my vote or my stance, either provide a better alternate plan or explain exactly HOW lynching Holy is NOT beneficial to the town. Seriously, stop hiding behind the "he doesn't seem scum" bush and take a stance already!!
I will get to your post soon cook, kinda tied up at the moment so just wanted to make this small post.
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GAH. I know that all suspicion on Holy should be pretty much cleared, but his buddying up with Nectar is so suspicious it's driving me insane. :/
Just go with your gut and do what you need to do, and not anything else.
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GAH. I know that all suspicion on Holy should be pretty much cleared
Huh? How exactly?? Because he said what was in his PM? I am as lost as Holy on this one :blink:
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What makes you believe it, Holy?
What did you think of his reaction (trying to strike that deal with me) earlier?
He has made a lot of solid posts that made sense to me, but mostly it was the one where he voted harvady that made me think it (though i dont know his play style like you do, so i could be getting lead along or something).
And what do mean he tired to strike a deal earlier? where?
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In terms of Necter, it's an interesting theory, though I believe it's still to early to tell.
What more are you waiting for? If anything, Nectar will read the accusations and do whatever he can to take suspicion off, only creating more confusion and doubt.
And if you're so hesitant about killing Nectar, do you have an alternative? Someone you suspect just as much? -
I'm going to go though all the old posts later today, so ill give you a solid opinion of my analysis at whatever point that turns out to be
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He has made a lot of solid posts that made sense to me, but mostly it was the one where he voted harvady that made me think it (though i dont know his play style like you do, so i could be getting lead along or something).
And what do mean he tired to strike a deal earlier? where?
where he told me that if i'm so sure that he, you, Massie and SUDK are maf, I should lynch you and, if you flip town, lynch me, and if you flip mafia, lynch Nectar.
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SUDK, i see you. I expect you to say something useful this time. there's too much going on for you to glide by simply saying you have nothing to contribute.
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kmo, give me a sec. i'm a tad confused now, which is why I'm keeping my vote on holy for just a sec; i need to look over the posts.
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So considering that Ill probably be lynched, you it would matter if I said my role. My pm said that it should cause chaos for the town if I did, but seeing as I'm going to be lynched most Lilly, what do you think.
I think this is why, kmo. It doesn't make sense for a mafia to have this in their PM. even if the mafia role PM had something like "if someone reveals their role it will cause chaos for the town", it's unlikely that mafia would go ahead and say they got it in their own PM.
only way i see out of this is if the janitor gets Kitty's entire role PM, which would enable him and the other mafia members to know what the town PM has. but looking at Holy's reaction to us lightening on him, it doesn't seem a deliberate plan to throw suspicion off him.
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Also my little dog comparison helped.
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LOL, Trapped, you've taken Nectar's place I see. :D What about Vor? He's also been lurking. I guess he doesn't have anything to add either.
About Bogart…I don't think the modkill was mentioned and if we find someone else to take his place, he'll be replaced, no doubt. But who? :( Bogart's a good candidate for the SK role or a good scapegoat for the one who has the SK role (no SK kill = SK didn't send his night action). So I guess we should find a replacement for him instead of guessing what exactly is him.
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SUDK, i see you. I expect you to say something useful this time. there's too much going on for you to glide by simply saying you have nothing to contribute.
I was reading posts for a change. Turns out it can help.
I thought it was suspicious that people were going after you so early on. Also, I really had thought Kinalara had attacked yyou more than the one time.
But before you said that, she had made 1 or 2 posts and one of them was about my playing style being similar to last game, which wasn't attacking me. She was stating that I play the same in almost every game…I think. And I don't recall anyone else attacking me before that. Who else?
Can't wait until night...but stuck between choices.
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SGR seems to not want to have to modkill people, though, judging from his strong desire to replace Kefka. :/
Though it is terribly odd that Bogart hasn't showed up at all till now.
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do you have any suspicions on anyone so far, SUDK?
and don't say that Malice :cwy: I feel like you hate me!
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means a count of how many lynch votes there are.
Habaneroo, since you're here, could you outline your stance on nectar/holy again? Also, do you have any other big scumreads?
The holy/nectar thing COULD be one big mistake. but nectar's continuous insistence on treating holy as town, to the point of betting his own life on it, sounds ridiculous and a possible bluff to me. I'm not letting this go.
You going after an amateur then bussing me is ridiculous! Stop flip-flopping and Vote Lynch!
I have a idea what trapped might be talking about, but I will say this. NO WE WILL NOT ELABORATE!! Figure it out yourself . I don't want to give Nectar ANY ideas that could enable him to wiggle his way out of this. Either we clear him or condemn him for tomorrows lynch. I want results!!
Don't insult me even more. I already know what Trapped meant. Long time player here!
-thinks-
If Holy flips mafia, that means Nectar is mafia, so… I guess I can bring down fire as effectively as if we lynched Neccie.
I don't usually lynch people just to get information, but the two of them are giving me pretty strong scum vibes and I honestly believe that this lynch will give us valuable information.
the gambles and "GO AHEAD AND LYNCH ME IF YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO" is rubbing me the wrong way, in the sense that it's awfully emotional and i-bet-you-won't-do-it.
So I guess I'll cooperate with you this time, kmo.
Vote lynch: Holygamer99
I'm trying to prove a point. You think I'm evil for not bandwagoning Holy, I say prove he's not. I READ ALL HIS POSTS! He is most likely a Townie. I'm willing to put my LIFE on it! Anyone else should be ready to do the same. If not, you're Mafia or crappy Townies.
I do. But I'm not willing to reveal him/her/them/it/llama just yet. It's not too difficult to figure out who it is, though.
So, you can keep a low profile but I can't?
I have the chance to be a COP, that's what I'm going after. That's one of the powers I ALWAYS wanted! That's my focus. I can chance my strategy this game and win it for the town. Different game, different tactics. I'm NOT a one trick pony!
Did Bogart show up since the game started?
Now, while I do think what happened to Kitsune may be the result of a janitor, I also tend to think that it doesn’t exactly make sense since the Janitor’s ability can be used one time per game (at least that’s how it was in the games I’ve played). Unless he knew Kitsune’s an important asset to the town or the Serial Killer (so we’ll all try our best to find him while they’re gonna laugh knowing we’re hunting ghosts), I’m not sure why would he try to clean up the mess on nightphase one (unless, of course, the Janitor is someone who doesn’t really care what we all think =P). Another explanation of the lack of body may be that the mafia must not know the townies abilities (and characters name since those are big hints I guess) ‘cause that would be dangerous…Eh, not much sense, but I really can’t understand why they’ll use such ability on nightphase 1. It’s not like Kitsune had an investigating ability, got a scum, came online, pointed out to the scum without hinting his role and the mafia killed him and cleaned the mess so we won’t know he was a cop/investigating role and his target was a scum…There would be needed two nightphases for that. :wassat:
The Mafia can't know what role we have. It's all about information. They know who Chuckles is and we don't, that's power. Especially, if he was a Cop or Watcher.
I didn’t exactly get the scum vibes most of you are mentioning when it comes to Holly. Guess I should read all his posts again but up until now he seems like a newbie, not exactly scum material. As far as I remember, the other newbies that proved to be mafias weren’t acting like this…Anyway, in my opinion, even if Holly flips town, this doesn’t clear up Nectar nor anyone just like Holly flipping mafia won’t clear anyone (SK and the neutral 3rd party around). Won’t clear Nectar because it’s been pointed that he doesn’t want to lynch Holly and what better defense can a mafia have than “I’ve told you he’s a town, you should have listened to me!”? However, if Holly flips mafia, the only way I see Nectar being mafia would be if Holly’s role would be really important to the mafia and they would do anything to keep him alive (like…their Godfather, so we’ll all know who to watch or a strong role, like copycat/ninja). Otherwise, I can’t see an experienced player like Nectar, if he’s a mafia, trying to “defend” his scummy buddy Holly.
It's more about finding Mafia bandwagoners if Holy is Townie.
The lack of the 2nd kill may be because either the SK is Bogart and didn’t come online , the SK also targeted Kitsune or we got lucky and the SK targeted a healed/bulletproof or someone immune to nightphases (even the Godfather, if the “last scum alive” rule applies in this game).
A Bulletproof would make sense in a Mafia/SK game.
"Each day, the corrupted souls will have the option of killing at free will whoever they desire."
Ok, if the mafia kills in the nightphase, then who kills in the dayphase since it's "soulS" aka a team, so that should exclude the Serial Killer. Unless SGR did that on purpose, and created a a SK that can chose to use or not a target (and this reminds me of M00n's role), then the mafia can chose to kill in the dayphase too, probably at a cost…Then they won't.
It may be possible the Mafia can set-up(poison) at night and kill anytime including the same night."Where they stand, they don't need to fear anything, they have the complete advantage, they can speak amongst themselves without any of you hearing, they can ignore your strengths and kill you one by one without problems, they can use their powers to the utmost while most of you are limited, and all of this while having their identities concealed"
Ok, 4 members, one who sends the team kill (the Godfather, which may also be immune to normal investigation, lynches/nighkills until he's the last scum alive), one who's the Janitor, one who's the roleblocker (ignore the strengths) and the unknown one…Any ideas about him? Beside the copycat role (copies the abilities and by writing "Nullify" next to the revealed ability they can't use it/copy it anymore).I'm thinking it's…
1. Godfather
2. Janitor
3. Roleblocker
4. Copycat or Driver.I don't mind you believing holy is town but saying me going after him is like me picking the whole town off is a bit strange considering the game we are playing. Am I not SUPPOSED to hunt for scum as I see fit?
If I can't, you can't either. Scum hunt the same way no matter what new rules or roles you have every game!
@Mrs.:
Okay, here we go.
Like I said, I've read the last 20 pages over again and found a lot of interesting things.
The following I think are scum: Kinalara, Nectar, metteminne, Heart. Of some I believe this more strongly than others. I won't go into detail about it now, but you can ask me to explain.The most important thing I have to say is this:
I think Nectar is the Serial Killer.From the beginning, he's been assuming there is a Serial Killer and has commented on that role as much as on townies or scum. He comments on what would be smart for a Serial Killer to do.
Furthermore, he hasn't been very enthusiastic, not choosing sides. He hasn't been avidly scumhunting (which would be townie) nor actively engaging in discussions (like to cover up for mafia behaviour). He's been playing for his own interest.
And lastly, he has been very eager to lynch, without caring much for who will die. He suggests to lynch Holy, and if he comes out innocent, kill Trapped. For him their roles don't matter, all he knows is they're not him and they need to die.
He's playing it smart, but not smart enough.Vote lynch: Nectar
1. Here's the thing. I have experience. Plus, when the host gives you a MAJOR clue about what the "evil" roles, it makes it easier to figure it out.
2. Yes, I play for my own interest. It's what I do. My interest is getting the MVP/Cop role and picking out my suspects. Problem is if I list all my suspects over and over again, the Mafia may either kill me for getting close or have a power that can corrupt my investigation. I already lynched voted a top suspect and gave reasons why! I'm keeping notes just like any smart Townie is. Don't tell me I'm not doing my job because I'm not going along with the crowd.
3. What about the people bussing an amateur player? It's okay to be wrong because everyone else is? Think for yourself.
I got my eyes on the prize.
I'm almost sure Holly's town, guys. If you didn't catch why, then you're all scums. :happy:
At least one of them is. I can't wait to go Dirty Harry on them!
… trying to move on, because it seems like Holy might not be mafia after all, which I'm still trying to recover from.
Massie… has been really really quiet. I know it seems like I'm jumping around, but I had some suspicions on him on Day 1, and his comments and lurkish actions today haven't exactly helped to bring them down. But he's been so inactive I really don't have much material on him :sad:
And here comes the obvious turn around. Grow a spine, Trapped. Or better yet, learn how to properly bus someone, Mafia.
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do you have any suspicions on anyone so far, SUDK?
Yes, and I stated them a few pages back. I suspect Kina and you, for making almost baseless accusations against me. And if you are Mafia, I can guess one or both of your abilities.
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Two persons I certainly don't want to lynch are Holygamer and Nectar. Like others have said, Holygamer doesn't seem like mafia to me at all, just a newcomer, and lynching Nectar without a strong reason sounds just plain foolish.
My own biggest suspect at the moment is Sky. She talks and participates a lot, which is good, but somehow I get the feeling that the reason for that is because she knows more than others for being mafia. I know it's a poor reason, but I think she wasn't this active and logical in past games when she was a townie.
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Well, Nectar, your antisocial and competitive way of playing make you look like a Serial Killer. And I still stand by what I said earlier.
Also, can you explain again why you suspect Harvady so much? -
and don't say that Malice :cwy: I feel like you hate me!
WHAT? Awww, I could never hate you! It was actually a compliment, even if it may not sound like one (my English vocabulary is quite poor).
I know this is a little off topic, but where are the old mafia players? Maki, Pkbaldy, Felton, M00n, Laser, WinterGt, Dead Bones Brook…so many that could take Bogart's role but they disappeared from the mafia games. :sad: Kitsune would be a choice but I guess he either isn't allowed by SGR, saw the Graveyard, doesn't want to take his place or he knows something that wouldn't allow him to take another role 'cause that would harm the mafia.
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I must say, I do miss having people like Maki around.
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Rookie mistake?? I don't get it. Why are people giving Holy the benefit of doubt?? If anyone wants me to retract my vote or my stance, either provide a better alternate plan or explain exactly HOW lynching Holy is NOT beneficial to the town. Seriously, stop hiding behind the "he doesn't seem scum" bush and take a stance already!!
I will get to your post soon cook, kinda tied up at the moment so just wanted to make this small post.
See? This is why I challenged Trapped. Because it's alot harder to bus people when your butt is on the line too! Oh man, the next Night is gonna be great!
@Mrs.:
Well, Nectar, your antisocial and competitive way of playing make you look like a Serial Killer. And I still stand by what I said earlier.
Also, can you explain again why you suspect Harvady so much?Simple. He thought Chuckles wasn't dead. You can blame it on him not knowing about Epic Mafia all you want but he's a top player AND former host. He should know better.
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@Shuhan1288:
We could have been discussing the story that TMR gave us a little more, it's how i got my proposed mafia set-up.
We did that too you know.
All i see there and the other posts is that Holy is new and decided to give SuDoKu a chance, even though the rest of us know better. If your gonna attack him for rookie mistakes while he is a rookie, that doesn't sit well with me.
Dude, he freakin' attacked Kina for going after SUDK when he himself WENT AFTER WOODEN AND SKY FOR LESS SOLID REASONS! Thats not armature play, thats dumb play (no offense)!!
i never said that you couldn't scum hunt as you see fit. I am just voicing my opinion on how it looks to me. Dont put words in my mouth Bear.
Technicalities :getlost:
I think this is why, kmo. It doesn't make sense for a mafia to have this in their PM. even if the mafia role PM had something like "if someone reveals their role it will cause chaos for the town", it's unlikely that mafia would go ahead and say they got it in their own PM.
only way i see out of this is if the janitor gets Kitty's entire role PM, which would enable him and the other mafia members to know what the town PM has. but looking at Holy's reaction to us lightening on him, it doesn't seem a deliberate plan to throw suspicion off him.
Just answer me this, did your PM included the word "chaos"? If not, then I think it was just something he used to avoid having to reveal and nullify. Remember he said it will cause chaos when as far as I remember, TMR said it will not be for the benefit of town. Chaos is a stronger word implying his power is special that could have stronger implications.
Don't insult me even more. I already know what Trapped meant. Long time player here!
Egoistic bastard.
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yes, it said chaos.
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Hmmm at this point in time my vote is staying. Nectar do you at least agree with me that we should take Kmo out before Harvady? Kmo is a little more of a problem than Harvady at the moment, seeing as the great lecturer has been absent for the most part. Why not investigate Harvady tonight?
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yes, it said chaos.
Then that is really strange… Dammit :sad:. Alright, I will back down.
Unvote: Holygamer
Guess we should go for Harvady then? I confronted him way back and he still needs to respond. I will give him a few more hours before lynching him.
Here are the posts that addressed my suspicion for anyone interested:
http://apforums.net/showthread.php?p=2126445
http://apforums.net/showthread.php?p=2126519And his reply, the only one I got:
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My own biggest suspect at the moment is Sky. She talks and participates a lot, which is good, but somehow I get the feeling that the reason for that is because she knows more than others for being mafia. I know it's a poor reason, but I think she wasn't this active and logical in past games when she was a townie.
To be fair, she probably wants the MVP role, everyone does. It's sure to cause people to be more active then usual, after all, I'm fairly certain that it is the reason TMR created the award.
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@Shuhan1288:
Hmmm at this point in time my vote is staying. Nectar do you at least agree with me that we should take Kmo out before Harvady? Kmo is a little more of a problem than Harvady at the moment, seeing as the great lecturer has been absent for the most part. Why not investigate Harvady tonight?
I know you asked Nectar this but I agree with it for the most part. I don't believe Kmo's scum from his recent posts. Although, I do agree that lynching Holy doesn't clear anyone up because anyone can just say "He was townie/scum so I'm cleared!" as long as they played their cards right. Yes, we should investigate Harvardy for the moment and focus our lynch on someone else.
That being said, I really don't see anyone very suspicious besides the two (excluding mastello now) I mentioned beforehand and Sky now for Mastello's reasons as well.
Also, because I accidentally included trapped voing for Holy in one of my other posts I need to unlynch him.
Unvote Lynch: Holygamer -
sighs
Vorlianis was here again. And he didn't post…And I need to re read all over again. Holy is clear to me, thanks to Malice… I re-read his posts, and not only 'Chaos', but another post kinda cleared him to me.
This doesn't mean that Nectar is clean though, I still get bad vibes from him. But that's how he is, right ?goes back to rereading
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@Elisabeth:
sighs
Vorlianis was here again. And he didn't post…And I need to re read all over again. Holy is clear to me, thanks to Malice… I re-read his posts, and not only 'Chaos', but another post kinda cleared him to me.
This doesn't mean that Nectar is clean though, I still get bad vibes from him. But that's how he is, right ?goes back to rereading
I know this doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but I always see your posts as madlibs with the bold words and all.