General 'Haki' Discussion

Number7

I don't think it'll make him immune to haki, persay, but I don't think haki is the key to defeating him. He did give Shanks his scar, after all, and we know Shanks is a haki user. There must be something more to defeating Blackbeard than haki.

Shanks got his scar from Blackbeard before Romance Dawn (chapter 1), long before Blackbeard had devil fruit powers. But since Blackbeard takes damage similar to a normal person it's true that haki is not necessarily the key to defeating him. Haki attacks will still do greater damage to BB than normal ones but they won't have the additional benefit of nullifying devil fruit based defenses like the ones that the characters Castelmore mention have.

Castelmore

I think Haki is needed against Blackbeard for defending against his powers, at least…
And I'm not sure his Yami Yami makes him take more damage than others. I think he takes no damage (or only some kind of exhaustion from using his power), like the other logia users, but only the pain. He must absorb the damage as he absorbs the pain. It just goes through him. (Not in the same way of other logia users)
So Haki is useful. And at least, hits will be harder ^^
And if he really takes more pain AND more damage, a terrible haki hit could make him pass out.

Mr. Sandman

@Reyairia:

I don't think it'll make him immune to haki, persay, but I don't think haki is the key to defeating him. He did give Shanks his scar, after all, and we know Shanks is a haki user. There must be something more to defeating Blackbeard than Haki.

Didn't BB note that Luffy's haki has improved? Obviously it had an effect on him.

Muah

@Mr.:

Didn't BB note that Luffy's haki has improved? Obviously it had an effect on him.

God I was thinking about this argument today. They say Haki translates into ambition so I can't imagine how they can tell BB wasn't saying Luffy didn't have a stronger ambition. If not I'm guessing you can tell the strengths of ones haki by their spirits. Though trying to explain BB's mysteriousness is usless. Right now he's the most mysteroius guy in the series.

Speed Jiru

Color of armarments/observation is vastly considered superior to fighters with no haki. The rank of Vice-Admiral entails that you have reached such level. But Devil Fruits, either the powerful ones or the normal ones trained to a high level can more than make up for a lack of haki.

Kuma uses his devil fruit powers to redirect Luffy's punches in the same way that Sentoumaru does in that same fight. And Gura Gura no mi has power greater than even the Color of Kings.

In short, BB will own luffy w/ earthquakes hands down.

Castelmore

Huh… Didn't you understand that Haki is the best weapon/defense against DF users?
Look at how the admirals protected the scaffold...
And everyone doesn't have the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi x)

Technique

Yeah, no doubt Haki can bypass Kuma's deflection defense.

Ryuksgelus

I don't see how. Haki doesn't shut down a DF ability just makes the target normal flesh and blood on contact. DF like Buggy's, Kuma's, and probably Alvida's and Magellan's wouldn't loose their defensive properties from blows armed with Haki.

Number7

@Ryuksgelus:

I don't see how. Haki doesn't shut down a DF ability just makes the target normal flesh and blood on contact. DF like Buggy's, Kuma's, and probably Alvida's and Magellan's wouldn't loose their defensive properties from blows armed with Haki.

Haki shut down Luffy's rubber body so it should be able to shut down powers like Buggy's or Alvida's. If Kuma has to touch something to repel it then it is plausible that he may not be able to repel haki attacks. Magellan just covers himself with poison so haki is only effective in that case if it protects the attackers weapons from being destroyed.

Coruscation

Haki may or may not be able to bypass Kuma's deflecting. We've seen that when a DF changes the body itself of a person, Haki can bypass that, or at least in some cases - the guy above me mentioned it with Luffy. If Kuma's deflecting is based on his paws literally being like mirrors to anything touching them, merely bouncing it away at touch, then it might be able to get around that, since the basis of the deflecting is that a part of Kuma's body has changed so that stuff gets deflected when it connects with it. But if the deflecting is done actively, as in Kuma activates his power and deflects the attack (or whatever it is), then it should not be able to get past that, since it's just Kuma pushing it away from himself.

That's how I figure it, anyway.

Technique

CoA finds the weak points of ability users and is the "only way to oppose them." This is Oda's answer to all abilities [cliche as it is] but was very much obvious. Kuma's ability would be no different.

joeymon2

@Ryuksgelus:

I don't see how. Haki doesn't shut down a DF ability just makes the target normal flesh and blood on contact. DF like Buggy's, Kuma's, and probably Alvida's and Magellan's wouldn't loose their defensive properties from blows armed with Haki.

so basically, youre saying haki is an ideal defense against only logia?

Ryuksgelus

@Technique:

CoA finds the weak points of ability users and is the "only way to oppose them." This is Oda's answer to all abilities [cliche as it is] but was very much obvious. Kuma's ability would be no different.

Rayleigh's comments support what I'm saying. He never implied it shut down abilities. He explained it allows them to attack weak points of DF users ending his explanation with turning logia's into tangible bodies.

Haki shut down Luffy's rubber body so it should be able to shut down powers like Buggy's or Alvida's. If Kuma has to touch something to repel it then it is plausible that he may not be able to repel haki attacks. Magellan just covers himself with poison so haki is only effective in that case if it protects the attackers weapons from being destroyed.

Then Mihawk doesn't have Haki? Haki blows make contact with Luffy turning him into a normal body. Swords would never touch Alvida and Buggy in the first place…well in most cases for Alvida. A little slippage shouldn't be able to stop any sword(unless Oda makes her ability that powerful) but that is a different subject.

All Haki would enable you to do in Kuma's case is overpower his DF's defense with brute force like Luffy did to Marigold. Its not negating the repelling properties of his fruit. If Haki did work the way you guys are saying then hitting a transformed Zoan with a Haki blow would be like hitting their normal self causing extra damage. I doubt Zoans would be given such a critical weakness of Haki ignoring they are in a Hybrid form.

so basically, you're saying haki is an ideal defense against only logia?

As well as fruits like Luffy, Mr.1, and perhaps Hina; not sure about Jozu. Their extra defenses are just by-products of their fruits true abilities. Unlike Buggy, Alvida, and Kuma's that are primarily defensive shrugging off blows altogether. Seem clear the main purpose of Haki was to give a universal way of dealing with Logias.

Aaronrules380

I disagree about Alvida since I feel she's a case like Luffy. Buggy probably can't be killed by swords even with Haki since as soon as the cut is made he can seperate his body away from the sword, and then reattach it via his power. If the wounds can't stick due to the power, Haki isn't as useful. If you attacked Alvida, she'd probably get wounded and stay so because the wounds wouldn't just disappear after the fact. Just my take however.

Technique

@Ryuksgelus:

Rayleighs comments support what I'm saying. He never implied it shut down abilities. He explained it allows them to attack weak points of DF users ended his explanation with turning logia's into tangible bodies.

Then you would not be arguing that Haki can't bypass Kuma's deflections.You would know Rayleigh bypassed Luffy's rubber to hurt him. Same with all ability users.

Zep3

@Aaronrules380:

I disagree about Alvida since I feel she's a case like Luffy. Buggy probably can't be killed by swords even with Haki since as soon as the cut is made he can seperate his body away from the sword, and then reattach it via his power. If the wounds can't stick due to the power, Haki isn't as useful. If you attacked Alvida, she'd probably get wounded and stay so because the wounds wouldn't just disappear after the fact. Just my take however.

I think it won't be black or white with haki in that case, but grey. If haki is strong enough it will bypass de DF completely, for example wounding Buggy seriously with a haki-imbued sword. Same for Alvida and the rest of DF's with special properties.

Kudo29

This post is deleted!

Aaronrules380

You know the basic haki types are a lot like stat modifiers in RPGs with a few extras. CoO is basically an evasion and accuracy booster (Since you know where they'll be going, its easier to hit opponents, even if they can move much faster than you, and it can help you find hidden enemies), and CoA is basically a strength and defense modifier obviously. CoC doesn't really fit into that line of thinking though. Although specialized Haki seems to also be used like skills and such. Just a thought really, but I felt like commenting on it

Zep3

@Aaronrules380:

You know the basic haki types are a lot like stat modifiers in RPGs with a few extras. CoO is basically an evasion and accuracy booster (Since you know where they'll be going, its easier to hit opponents, even if they can move much faster than you, and it can help you find hidden enemies), and CoA is basically a strength and defense modifier obviously. CoC doesn't really fit into that line of thinking though. Although specialized Haki seems to also be used like skills and such. Just a thought really, but I felt like commenting on it

CoC is out of the question, but I like that way of looking at Haki. With CoA Oda will obviously make whatever he feels like when the moment comes.

Ryuksgelus

Reading my posts I need to wake up more before posting. Some make me sound like English isn't my first language.

@Technique:

Then you would not be arguing that Haki can't bypass Kuma's deflections.You would know Rayleigh bypassed Luffy's rubber to hurt him. Same with all ability users.

No. Kuma's fruit is to repel things. Luffy makes him elastic like rubber but Haki allows the user to make contact with normal flesh and bone. Haki isn't taking away Kuma's paws or shutting down their abilities that prevent a blow from landing in the first place. Only Teach's fruit shuts down a power entirely.

Same logic possibly explaining why Buggy didn't die against Mihawk. Separating as soon as a blade makes contact with his skin so he is never cut in the first place. Better than the strongest swordsman having a handicap his peers(Rayleigh, Shanks, Vista) do not.

@Aaronrules380

Don't really have a strong opinion on Alvida until I see more of her. Seems odd being slippery means shots and strikes from even the likes of Shanks, Mihawk, Yassop, and Auger are ineffective. Unlike Buggy or Luffy I think she just has a resistance to attacks not a full immunity. Maybe a little hasty to put her in the primarily defensive fruit category with Buggy&Kuma. How haki effects her will probably only be answered if we see how it effects Magellan.

Aaronrules380

I'd argue Luffy's is also a strong resistance, not an immunity. And just because a fruit is primarily defensive doesn't mean it should be immune to Haki in my mind. Also, I kind of doubt Haki would do much against magellan. Unless you can fire Haki blasts of course. You'd still be contacting the poison afterall. I suppose since CoA is armor haki, it might keep the poison off you, but I kind of doubt it. I see Magellan as an opponent best fought by a strong weapon user or someone like Nami who uses non-physical attacks

Cymelion

@Aaronrules380:

I'd argue Luffy's is also a strong resistance, not an immunity. And just because a fruit is primarily defensive doesn't mean it should be immune to Haki in my mind. Also, I kind of doubt Haki would do much against magellan. Unless you can fire Haki blasts of course. You'd still be contacting the poison afterall. I suppose since CoA is armor haki, it might keep the poison off you, but I kind of doubt it. I see Magellan as an opponent best fought by a strong weapon user or someone like Nami who uses non-physical attacks

Oda has already given you the answer you seek.

All 3 Admirals are shown in this page referring to the fact that Haki can overcome their abilities.

!

Now granted there are some potential references in this page that would provide an argument against physical contact with a DF user.

1 Rayleigh blocked Kizaru leg with a foot wearing a shoe.
2 In the following panals after he mentions that objects can be imbued with Haki.

However Luffy putting CoA on his arm I think is the indication that he will be able to use these abilities against Logia users in that regard. I think the big shock will come when he lands a blow on an Admiral although I believe Caribou will be used to emphasise that he can attack Logia users.

Just_Gabe

Then you would not be arguing that Haki can't bypass Kuma's deflections.You would know Rayleigh bypassed Luffy's rubber to hurt him. Same with all ability users.

Lol, the only thing Haki does is bypass the DF's natural defenses like Luffy's rubber or a Logia's intangibility. Nothing more. I wouldn't bypass say, Mr. 3's candle wall but with a very strong hit. Same with Kuma's "deflection". Haki doesn't "cancel" them.

1 Rayleigh blocked Kizaru leg with a foot wearing a shoe.
2 In the following panals after he mentions that objects can be imbued with Haki.

Dude, it's obvious that he didn't "imbue" Haki into his shoes.

Cymelion

@Just_Gabe:

Lol, the only thing Haki does is bypass the DF's natural defenses like Luffy's rubber or a Logia's intangibility. Nothing more. I wouldn't bypass say, Mr. 3's candle wall but with a very strong hit. Same with Kuma's "deflection". Haki doesn't "cancel" them.

Dude, it's obvious that he didn't "imbue" Haki into his shoes.

Dude it's obvious that I didn't say it did - I said that there is a possibility that attacking Logias MAY require a buffer - Shanks Sword - Rayleigh's shoe … ect. Just from the wording or the way the panals are presented it's not cut and dried or there wouldn't be people arguing over it.

The rules surrounding attacking a logia have not yet been laid out in completion and I think that Haki users can attack Logia users with their physical bodies.

flandrian15

I think that some logia's indeed need a buffer. The reason why is simple: Lava burns so for instance Akainu is stoppable but if you do it bare handed you'll get burned. Rayleigh did say though that CoA is sort of an armor and Rayleigh took out an elephant-like creature without touching it so it might also be possible to stop them with the armor equipped and without using a buffer. I am starting to confuse myself.

Cymelion

With the limited information on how Haki is used we're going to be confused till it starts to become more common place in its usage.

Aaronrules380

I don't ee how that applies to Magellan since he isn't a Logia, however much it might seem he is. Which should be obvious since Luffy punched him and got him hurt

Cymelion

@Aaronrules380:

I don't ee how that applies to Magellan since he isn't a Logia, however much it might seem he is. Which should be obvious since Luffy punched him and got him hurt

If you can affect Magma - you can affect poison. - Moreso he does not become insubstantial.

And using the example of the elephant attack being blocked without physical contact then Magellan could be attacked without being touched.

Luffy made 2nd Gear to attack so fast it barely touches a subject - Haki means he should if the information is correct bypass the poison pushing it out of the way and hitting the body of Magellan.

Especially at 2nd Gear speed.

Aaronrules380

I'm not arguing you couldn't hurt magellan. I'm saying that Magellan's poison isn't really a defense against most things (except things small enough that it can burn them away before contact and that really is just a side-effect of the thing I'll mention next). It's more just that it makes people not want to hit him since if you hit it, you will die. And yes it might be possible, and I remembered that. BUt I doubt if you just used Haki it would force the poison to move away from it like magic, so if you hit them with a Haki covered fist, I'm sure you'd still be effected. Magellan doesn't turn into poison, he just coats himself in it. I've seen no indication that Haki can effect stuff like that

Cymelion

@Aaronrules380:

I've seen no indication that Haki can effect stuff like that

!

So we have arguments for both sides here - WB got hit by the Magma and clearly had an effect on him - no way to argue past that.
But then you see WB land a blow on Akainu prior to the blow landing his arm is still magma on landing his body has become normal.

So what I think is Haki can only be used as an armour for a particular point of contact - unless concentrating your body is still susceptable. So if Luffy had his arm covered he can attack Magellan but if Magellan attacks Luffy's un-inmbued body he will be hit.

Just_Gabe

@Cymelion:

Dude it's obvious that I didn't say it did - I said that there is a possibility that attacking Logias MAY require a buffer - Shanks Sword - Rayleigh's shoe … ect. Just from the wording or the way the panals are presented it's not cut and dried or there wouldn't be people arguing over it.

The rules surrounding attacking a logia have not yet been laid out in completion and I think that Haki users can attack Logia users with their physical bodies.

I'm not stating what you said or what you didn't. I'm only stating what has been already explained by Rayleigh and what we have seen, and we have seen that when you use CoA you don't need a "buffer" or something to "imbue" the haki to hit an intangible thing or a magma man without hurting yourself. Just look at Sentoumaru, he didn't have to touch Luffy.

Aaronrules380

Again, you're comparing completely different powers since Magelan is a paramecia. If you hit a part of the enemies body, it'll hurt them, but not something produced by the enemies. Like it said, it makes it possible to hit them while attacking. You can already hit Magellan, the problem is you need to punch through the poison coating to get there. The situations are completely different

Just_Gabe

@Aaronrules380:

Again, you're comparing completely different powers since Magelan is a paramecia. If you hit a part of the enemies body, it'll hurt them, but not something produced by the enemies. Like it said, it makes it possible to hit them while attacking. You can already hit Magellan, the problem is you need to punch through the poison coating to get there. The situations are completely different

Cymelion only pointed out that Luffy could attack Magellan without being affected by the poison. Even if it's a paramecia Magellan's ability to cover his body in poison provides him a formidable defense-offensive protection that could be bypassed with CoA.
In Akainu's case, such protection that the magma gives is also nullified.

Aaronrules380

WHat I'm saying is that I don't think CoA could bypass it. CoA can bypass Akainu's magma since it is still part of Akainu. Magellans poison is different, since he just produces and manipulates it. I feel saying the CoA would make you immune to hitting his poison coating is akin to saying it would make his clothes move out of the way. I don't think Haki reacts to objects like that at all. And again, Magellan's poison provides almost no real defense. If you hit him he won't be any less hurt with the poison than he'd be without it, the only difference is you'd be hurt as well. It can hit intangible Logia powers, but Magellans power is a tangible paramecia which means it could be completely different

Muah

@Aaronrules380:

Again, you're comparing completely different powers since Magelan is a paramecia. If you hit a part of the enemies body, it'll hurt them, but not something produced by the enemies. Like it said, it makes it possible to hit them while attacking. You can already hit Magellan, the problem is you need to punch through the poison coating to get there. The situations are completely different

Yea.

I still want to see what haki can do. When ray said to imagine a body of armor it made me wonder if you can protect your self with it.

Aaronrules380

Honestly what I think this comes dowwn to is whether Haki is internal, external, or if it can be either. I lean towards internal, which would be a strengthing of the qualities of whatever it imbues, but is still a part of it. If its external, it would be like a magic forcefield. Given Luffy's hardening using Haki, I highly doubt the external only thing is a real possibility

Cymelion

@Aaronrules380:

WHat I'm saying is that I don't think CoA could bypass it. CoA can bypass Akainu's magma since it is still part of Akainu. Magellans poison is different, since he just produces and manipulates it. I feel saying the CoA would make you immune to hitting his poison coating is akin to saying it would make his clothes move out of the way. I don't think Haki reacts to objects like that at all. And again, Magellan's poison provides almost no real defense. If you hit him he won't be any less hurt with the poison than he'd be without it, the only difference is you'd be hurt as well. It can hit intangible Logia powers, but Magellans power is a tangible paramecia which means it could be completely different

I see where you're coming from truely I do.

What I am saying is Magellan's Poison is as you say something that is produced and manipulated by him.
Akainu's Magma is also something he can produce and manipulate but with the added benifit he can become it as well. Anything that applies to a substance produced by a Logia is the same that can be applied to a Paramecia that produces a substance.

If you can coat a body in a form of armour then you can use said armour to pass to where the body of the target is.
Now if Magellan was performing his Hydra attack then Haki may not help - it is too much to counter. But if it is just a covering of a body then it may not be enough to provide a sufficient danger.

I think it comes down to the volume vs the ability.
Which is why Akainu's magma blow hit the face of WB but wasn't enough to overcome the incoming blow.

gangstayonkou

I think while you can strike a logia user with haki but it depends on the element. I'm pretty sure you can't touch magma with just your barehands. I'm positive that haki won't become a god like the sharingan(in naruto) in one piece.

Cymelion

@gangstayonkou:

I think while you can strike a logia user with haki but it depends on the element. I'm pretty sure you can't touch magma with just your barehands. I'm positive that haki won't become a god like the sharingan(in naruto) in one piece.

@Cymelion:

Oda has already given you the answer you seek.

All 3 Admirals are shown in this page referring to the fact that Haki can overcome their abilities.

!

Now granted there are some potential references in this page that would provide an argument against physical contact with a DF user.

1 Rayleigh blocked Kizaru leg with a foot wearing a shoe.
2 In the following panals after he mentions that objects can be imbued with Haki.

However Luffy putting CoA on his arm I think is the indication that he will be able to use these abilities against Logia users in that regard. I think the big shock will come when he lands a blow on an Admiral although I believe Caribou will be used to emphasise that he can attack Logia users.

As I said there - Oda shows us a Page with 3 powerful Admirals while saying Haki can overcome invincible type of Logias.

Honestly I don't know how he is going to overcome some of the effects that logias can do. But I do know that Haki is the only way to overcome the abilities - we're all just waiting for enough information to be provided for us to get a better understanding. Which again is why I think Caribou was introduced he is there to establish the rules of fighting a Logia user with Haki.

Ryuksgelus

I think that will be done when Luffy first encounters Smoker. Which should be soon after they surface in the New World. Caribou is just that Super Rookie who the SH have and will continue to show up without even trying.

Him being a Logia is just confirmation to us readers that even being a Logia means shit anymore if you lack many other combat qualities.

Just_Gabe

If Luffy hits Akainu without haki, he will get burned. With Haki he won't. No brainer there.

Muah

@Just_Gabe:

If Luffy hits Akainu without haki, he will get burned. With Haki he won't. No brainer there.

I don't know. When you hit aokiji you don't get frozen and he's just as cold as Akainu is hot.

Coruscation

I think that [going into details on fighting a Logia with Haki] will be done when Luffy first encounters Smoker. Which should be soon after they surface in the New World.

Agreed. I've been thinking that Oda could even explain it over multiple clashes between Luffy & Smoker, with Smoker having learned that technique or whatever it is that the Admirals use to stop even Haki-infused attacks from hurting them the 2nd time around, since I think a lot of people would really want an explanation on that and by the time Luffy fights Akainu we don't want any of that - just a grim, deathly clash.

shashank41

@Ryuksgelus:

I think that will be done when Luffy first encounters Smoker. Which should be soon after they surface in the New World.

isn't marineford the place where they should surface in the new world? it being switched with g1 ?which was previously at the start of the new world/other side of red line?
smoker is in g5 I think.

Cymelion

@shashank41:

isn't marineford the place where they should surface in the new world? it being switched with g1 ?which was previously at the start of the new world/other side of red line?
smoker is in g5 I think.

16 Characters of Correct.

Ryuksgelus

I'm sure Smoker got News that the "SH" returned and may want to sail over and greet them. I always thought Oda would start Luffy and Smoker's Roger&Garp style relationship early in the New World.

blendingur69

@Ryuksgelus:

I'm sure Smoker got News that the "SH" returned and may want to sail over and greet them. I always thought Oda would start Luffy and Smoker's Roger&Garp style relationship early in the New World.

Well I still think Caribou is there to show us how Luffy's gonna fight Logias. It's just a little to stretched for Smoker to come greet them.

rejos

@blendingur69:

Well I still think Caribou is there to show us how Luffy's gonna fight Logias. It's just a little to stretched for Smoker to come greet them.

Exactly, Luffy will have to get some experience too, in order to fight the most powerful logia users.

I like the part that Luffy is the only SH member capable of fighting logias!!! I say it because a lot of people thought (before the time skip) that all the strawhats will learn haki but as we can se now it is Luffy's unique ability!!! :P

rejos

@Ryuksgelus:

I'm sure Smoker got News that the "SH" returned and may want to sail over and greet them. I always thought Oda would start Luffy and Smoker's Roger&Garp style relationship early in the New World.

I don't think so, Luffy is a lot stronger than Smoker was at the war. Additionaly Luffy learned Haki from the best haki master in one piece world so even if smoker learned haki too he won't be as powerful as luffy!!!

Cymelion

@rejos:

Exactly, Luffy will have to get some experience too, in order to fight the most powerful logia users.

I like the part that Luffy is the only SH member capable of fighting logias!!! I say it because a lot of people thought (before the time skip) that all the strawhats will learn haki but as we can se now it is Luffy's unique ability!!! :P

That isn't confirmed yet.

The monster trio may have Haki but only Luffy has a better use of all 3.

I believe (Correct me if wrong) Zoro is likely to have Observation and Sanji gets Armaments should they have it. It's mainly fan arguments as to who has what and is yet to be confirmed.

But I can not see Zoro or Sanji being left in the NW without either a small amount of Haki or a high level limited to singular type.