Legacies, Parallels, and Fate

[Sea]

!
@SGRaaize:

When Luffy was just a random happy-go-lucky guy who would do everything in his power to protect his friends and to be the Pirate King, it was awesome, he was the man that was helping out all these awful situations around him, he didn't have a really sad past, he was just a random kid that got an amazing will and encouragement from Shanks, and wanted to get to the top of the world, almost as if we were seeing a random guy working his ass off from a zero to the legendary Pirate King.

So you prefer him to be a super genius who self-trained in 10 years and and became a monster instead of a pussy at first but through incredibly harsh training by a good (and crazy) teacher has become a real man? I thought you like the hard-working theme?
Luffy being a random guy finding a random super good teacher in a small village made even less sense. And heavily depend on luck.

So, being born a super genius or getting a good teacher (Garp), both are luck (and useless if he doesn't put effort himself). Either way, saying Luffy doesn't need luck to become PK makes no sense.

[Mugiwara_no_Ice]

@SGRaaize:

Yes, I don't like the DNA Plot Point, because I'd like the story more if Luffy's father and mother didn't matter and he was just a random kid with an heck of a spirit, trying to be the best in the world.
I feel that Luffy being the best will have less of an impact knowing he's the greatest also due to the great DNA he has.

Unfortunately this is a Japanese story and DNA plot points, like you call them, are like imbedded in their system. I would have liked Luffy to be just a normal kid with no affiliations or heritage but that's not how the Japanese do things.

Little example for Sea to understand my point - The poison guy in lone wolf and cub didn't have the honour of a samurai because he didn't have the dna of a samurai.

[Sea]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

Little example for Sea to understand my point - The poison guy in lone wolf and cub didn't have the honour of a samurai because he didn't have the dna of a samurai.

So, was that stated by the narrator somewhere in the manga that I don't remember???
More like because his adoptive father had wrong educating method/ Forcing him to taste poison just because the samurai family need a heir just made him hate that bushido thing even more. And his mother, a hentai, showed perverted behaviors to him as a kid. Bad example.
Ogami hardly forced his son anything, instead, just showed the example of a true samurai to his son.

I would call Ogami Itto a great educator, not only he taught his son well, he also taught Abe to accept his death and die as a samurai. Only Itto can do that. Magnificent wolf.

!


Garp's nurture made a man out of Luffy.

[SGRaaize]

@Mugiwara_no_Ice:

Unfortunately this is a Japanese story and DNA plot points, like you call them, are like imbedded in their system. I would have liked Luffy to be just a normal kid with no affiliations or heritage but that's not how the Japanese do things.

Yeah, I know
Its not like its a manga-breaking aspect, it just annoys me a lot

[Mugiwara_kun]

The evidence would seem to suggest the D. is a family, not a trait that appears on random births signifying great future. The evidence for this is that we do not know how any characters got their "D." name from, except for Ace, Dragon and Luffy who obviously had it through being sons of Ds. What's more, Dragon calls it "inherited Will", making a strong argument for a bloodline.

Saul might be a half-giant, he is small compared to Brogy or even the Giant VAs in Marineford, which would make his D. as part of a family possible. Even Teach has some traits of characters (like love of food and adventure) that most Ds have.

---

Now unto my wild theory. Keep in mind i am not CONVINCED this is true, i just speculate using bits of evidence. To read with an open mind.

My wild theory, that COULD happen based on the evidence but is highly unlikely, is that the name of D. is the bloodline of the rulers of the country that the World Government destroyed during the Void Century, and are being used as pawns in a master plan to bring down the World Government as revenge. My reason for believing that is that every single "D." has affected the World Government in a deep way.

-Gol D. Roger was the Pirate King that started the Great Pirate Era, leading thousands of pirates to sail to the Sea, attacking the authority of the WG.

-Portgas D. Ace was the cause of the Marineford War, that ravaged Impel Downs and Marineford, two of the WG's greatest holds, and Portgas D. Rouge was the person that made that happen by being his mother.

-Monkey D. Luffy destroyed Impel Downs, Enies Lobby, brought down 2 Shichibukai, etc.

-Monkey D. Dragon is the WG's most feared enemy.

-Jaguar D. Saul's sudden betrayal made Robin escape from Ohara, making it possible for someone to read the Poneglyphs this kingdom left behind. Her later joining the SHs and being taken by CP9 led to the destruction of Enies Lobby.

-Blackbeard D. Teach released the Level 6 Prisoners from Impel Downs, weakened the Shichibukai Order with his betrayal, half destroyed Marineford and Seabondagy Archipelago.

-As for the Hero Monkey D. Garp, he is the only unfitting link in the chain, but i'll justify it by speculating his role would have been to be the father figure (literally or not) for Dragon, Luffy, and Ace, three major "Ds" whose roles are explained above.

So the Ds caused the destruction of the World Government's three main bases, the Great Pirate Era, and the likely future discovery of the True History once Robin reaches Raftel. Without the Ds, none of this would have happened.

AGAIN, it is SPECULATION. I do not hold it as truth. I just think it is an interesting thing to think about.

[Zkaiser]

My anti-fatalistic ideals make a lot of what's said in this thread hard to swallow.

[NANLIT]

@brennen.exe:

At this point in the story, I see no difference between the middle initial 'D.' and any other last name. Strong willed, at best, is the closest tie between them all. Ace died as a young adult, before he really accomplished much. A lot of good being D. did for him. Saul is dead, and was nothing extraordinary either, just your average giant / vice admiral. Dime a dozen, near as I can tell. Garp is strong as hell, sure, but nothing really sets him apart either. Roger was the Pirate King, and Dragon is the leader of the Revolutionary army, both of whom worked long and hard to attain what they have. I just see no connection between being a D. and being predestined for something great, or gaining something from their DNA that made them unavoidably great without effort. Luffy grew up without parents, was abusively trained by his grandfather, and spent years training and surviving in jungles, mountains, etc. NOTHING set him apart from Sabo or Ace back then, and he had to work arguably harder to make up for his disadvantages. Outside of luck or maybe a strong will, I see no advantages to being a D. right now.

I think that is about character. Whitebeard didn't care about Raftel or being the Pirate King, as all he wanted was family. I don't see any reason for Shanks to care, as he just wanted to sail around and see the world. Luffy himself barely cares about Raftel, so much as he just wants to be the freest man (aka Pirate King). I think that mindset is what Whitebeard was referring to. Whitebeard being "the closest" was just an assumption the public made, thinking all pirates want the same thing.

I think Garp cornering Roger so many times and being the "Hero of the Marines" did set him apart. But like you said, it's about character and Garp chose to stay as a Vice Admiral. If he had become an Admiral when Kong was still Fleet Admiral, Garp may have become the Fleet Admiral instead of Sengoku. And I do wonder if Dragon had any impact on his decision. The earliest we know of the Revolutionary Army is when Luffy was 7. If Dragon was planning to become a revolutionary in the last years of Roger's life, Garp may have figured that being an Admiral or Fleet Admiral would have made him act directly against Dragon and the Revolutionary Army once they became a big enough threat in the WG's eyes. Garp's greatest weakness is his family after all.

[Gladiator777]

Didn't Roger sounded like BB when he first met rayleigh Talking about Fate ?

[Monkey D. Boa]

@Mugiwara_kun:

The evidence would seem to suggest the D. is a family, not a trait that appears on random births signifying great future. The evidence for this is that we do not know how any characters got their "D." name from, except for Ace, Dragon and Luffy who obviously had it through being sons of Ds. What's more, Dragon calls it "inherited Will", making a strong argument for a bloodline.

Saul might be a half-giant, he is small compared to Brogy or even the Giant VAs in Marineford, which would make his D. as part of a family possible. Even Teach has some traits of characters (like love of food and adventure) that most Ds have.

---

Now unto my wild theory. Keep in mind i am not CONVINCED this is true, i just speculate using bits of evidence. To read with an open mind.

My wild theory, that COULD happen based on the evidence but is highly unlikely, is that the name of D. is the bloodline of the rulers of the country that the World Government destroyed during the Void Century, and are being used as pawns in a master plan to bring down the World Government as revenge. My reason for believing that is that every single "D." has affected the World Government in a deep way.

-Gol D. Roger was the Pirate King that started the Great Pirate Era, leading thousands of pirates to sail to the Sea, attacking the authority of the WG.

-Portgas D. Ace was the cause of the Marineford War, that ravaged Impel Downs and Marineford, two of the WG's greatest holds, and Portgas D. Rouge was the person that made that happen by being his mother.

-Monkey D. Luffy destroyed Impel Downs, Enies Lobby, brought down 2 Shichibukai, etc.

-Monkey D. Dragon is the WG's most feared enemy.

-Jaguar D. Saul's sudden betrayal made Robin escape from Ohara, making it possible for someone to read the Poneglyphs this kingdom left behind. Her later joining the SHs and being taken by CP9 led to the destruction of Enies Lobby.

-Blackbeard D. Teach released the Level 6 Prisoners from Impel Downs, weakened the Shichibukai Order with his betrayal, half destroyed Marineford and Seabondagy Archipelago.

-As for the Hero Monkey D. Garp, he is the only unfitting link in the chain, but i'll justify it by speculating his role would have been to be the father figure (literally or not) for Dragon, Luffy, and Ace, three major "Ds" whose roles are explained above.

So the Ds caused the destruction of the World Government's three main bases, the Great Pirate Era, and the likely future discovery of the True History once Robin reaches Raftel. Without the Ds, none of this would have happened.

AGAIN, it is SPECULATION. I do not hold it as truth. I just think it is an interesting thing to think about.

Garp affected the WG in a big way by taking care of Roger's kid.

[Zack]

@Cyan:

I like how everything that's happened since Sabaody two years ago was made possible only by Teach getting incredibly lucky that Ace went for his head.

Since when were you under the illusion that it was luck? :ninja:

Obviously, Teach killed That knowing Ace would come after him. Then knowing Luffy was Ace's brother, Ace would have even more reason to kill him. It was all part of an elaborate and perfect plan that Teach set up without any flaws.

[brennen.exe]

@NANLIT:

I think Garp cornering Roger so many times and being the "Hero of the Marines" did set him apart.

All the current Admirals, Sengoku, and dozens of others are no different than him as far as I can tell. Power, position, and likely even accomplishments. I certainly wouldn't say "Hero of the Marines" is in any way related to him being a D.

[NANLIT]

He didn't know Ace and Luffy were brothers until Ace told him. Remember, Teach offered Ace a place in his crew. And Teach obviously couldn't predict that Thatch would find the very DF that Teach was searching for.

[Cymelion]

@Sea:

As long as Oda doesn't end up making Roger have the same DF as Luffy, Oda can make as many Roger/Luffy similaries as he wants.

That won't happen. Because Buggy would have noticed the first time he met Luffy.

Maybe Buggy did notice - but it's not time to learn that - like it was never time to learn what power WB has - or why Robin was hunted - Besides if he did then what back then "Oh wow thats the DF Roger had" "How do you know?" "Oh I was on his crew" "Didn't you just say you were on the same crew as Shanks?" "Yes we were both were on Rogers ship" …. see how much could have been said in a little time.

Look at how things are shown in the Manga - big build up - little clues here and there - then a big reveal and suddenly all the hints add up.
Shanks having a DF somewhere close to Luffy - like almost right infront of where he was sitting.
All the other similarities of Roger and Luffy - I know it's just a little too convenient but seriously I think this is something Oda is leading up to - if it is true I feel bad because the moment wont affect me as much as :(

[LimeOrange]

@Cymelion:

Maybe Buggy did notice - but it's not time to learn that - like it was never time to learn what power WB has - or why Robin was hunted - Besides if he did then what back then "Oh wow thats the DF Roger had" "How do you know?" "Oh I was on his crew" "Didn't you just say you were on the same crew as Shanks?" "Yes we were both were on Rogers ship" …. see how much could have been said in a little time.

Look at how things are shown in the Manga - big build up - little clues here and there - then a big reveal and suddenly all the hints add up.
Shanks having a DF somewhere close to Luffy - like almost right infront of where he was sitting.
All the other similarities of Roger and Luffy - I know it's just a little too convenient but seriously I think this is something Oda is leading up to - if it is true I feel bad because the moment wont affect me as much as :(

Mhm, one thing I felt about One Piece is that Oda doesn't hide things just because he feels it's not the time to reveal it. Whenever the situation of the story calls for a detail, he does reveal it appropriately.

Luffy met a lot of people that were familiar with Roger. Buggy, Shanks, Ganfall, Rayleigh, etc. None of them had the same reaction as Hancock's sisters when they saw Luffy release his CoC ? So, I really think based on the clues, it's not logical at all for the story to suddenly say Luffy had the same fruit as Roger's. Oda is better than that, I believe.

[HikaruYami]

Screw anything about Buggy knowing, even GARP knew about when Luffy got his rubber powers. He DEFINITELY would have freaked the hell out more than he possibly actually did if Luffy suddenly had Roger's power.

This is assuming that Roger even had a DF.

[Cymelion]

@HikaruYami:

Screw anything about Buggy knowing, even GARP knew about when Luffy got his rubber powers. He DEFINITELY would have freaked the hell out more than he possibly actually did if Luffy suddenly had Roger's power.

This is assuming that Roger even had a DF.

Again - If Roger did have the Gomu Fruit ability - Oda can allow for all situations resulting in the ability being convayed to Luffy to not happen.

Why would Garp tell Luffy who Idolises Pirates including the Pirate King that he had the same DF ability.
Why would Shanks tell Luffy - Oh you just ate the Pirate Kings DF - he wants to see what Luffy will become hence "betting on the next generation"
Buggy hates Luffy - less so since the war - and all the times involving Buggy haven't allowed for them to have indepth discussions.
Marines - well their all too busy trying to capture him for the crimes he is responsible for why bother bringing up how the ability is the same as Rogers.

Average person out there - They know the names of famous pirates and the things they have done - abilities just don't seem important.
Name > DF Ability it seems.

All I can say is that Luffy having Rogers DF would be the type of full cycle story arc that would make sense after all the revelations and comparisons between Roger and Luffy are coming to light.

[Sea]

No, it makes absolutely no sense at all.
-Sengoku revealed that Luffy's Dragon son as one of the reason why he's dangerous. Then there was no reason having PK's DF was not mentioned.

-If Roger had a DF, everyone and their mothers would know. There are many books about him that lots of SH read.

-This was not the reaction of someone who had seen the Gomu Gomu power before:

!

[Cymelion]

@Sea:

No, it makes absolutely no sense at all.
Sengoku revealed that Luffy's Dragon son as one of the reason why he's dangerous. Then there is no reason having PK's DF is not mentioned.
If Roger had a DF, everyone and their mothers would know. There are many books about him that lots of SH read.

And I agree with you there in principle.

But I can't shake the feeling that it may be the case - don't get me wrong I'm not going to sit there betting my account or placing it in a signature or denouncing all those who don't agree as satan spawn. It's dots I have connected in my mind - the pattern seems to follow with the similarities between Roger and Luffy.

All it boils down to is if it was to be a big reveal moment - then all things will be explained then - but the point at which we'd find out if Roger had DF or anything more on Roger is so far away it's not funny. Hell I probably would have forgotten all about this thread and these moments depending what happens in my life in the meantime.

@Sea:

-This was not the reaction of someone who had seen the Gomu Gomu power before:

! http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5657/017art.jpg
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7923/018wm.jpg

Well I could veiw that as shock that the ability has re-emerged. I know the counter argument is why wouldn't he say "That's Roger's ability" But we didn't know Buggy was on the crew back then.

Answer me this then -
If Roger had the Gomu ability - is Oda incapable of writting One Piece in such a way that the reader would not know this till the time is right?
Because right now all we the reader know about Roger is very little - hell we knew next to nothing about Luffy for quite some time - seriously why wasn't Sabo mentioned in over 500 episodes … oh yeah because it wasn't time to know.

[Sea]

@Cymelion:

I know the counter argument is why wouldn't he say "That's Roger's ability"

No, the counter argument is why he said:"What the hell is that kid??!!" if he had seen that power before. His reaction indicated that was the first time he saw such rubber monster.
There is absolutely no reason why Roger would and should have the Gomu DF at all. That is stupid.

seriously why wasn't Sabo mentioned in over 500 episodes … oh yeah because it wasn't time to know.

The S on Ace's arm. When revealed, it made sense.
Why if Roger is revealed to have Rubber fruit, it's would just be completely stupid writing.

[Cymelion]

@Sea:

No, the counter argument is why he said:"What the hell is that kid??!!" if he had seen that power before. His reaction indicated that was the first time he saw such rubber monster.
There is absolutely no reason why Roger would have the Gomu DF at all. That is stupid writing.

The S on Ace's arm.

Yes the S was a hint - I meant to be taken literally "no mention of Luffy's 3rd Brother Sabo" like "People would say something about Roger"

What if Roger had never performed the Balloon move?
I'd freak out too, or used it for any other reason then as an ability to both absorb blows and deflect bullets without needing to have CoA on at all times.

I remember people discussing how it's not the DF that makes people powerful it is how it used. (Within reason)

[Sea]

@Cymelion:

Yes the S was a hint - I meant to be taken literally "no mention of Luffy's 3rd Brother Sabo" like "People would say something about Roger"

What if Roger had never performed the Balloon move?
I'd freak out too, or used it for any other reason then as an ability to both absorb blows and deflect bullets without needing to have CoA on at all times.

I remember people discussing how it's not the DF that makes people powerful it is how it used. (Within reason)

Here is another reaction that indicated that was the first time he saw that fruit:

!
Buggy:Devil Fruit…!!! (meaning: "So that rubber ability is the power of a devil fruit, huh?")
And it would make extremely little sense if Buggy could underestimate an opponent that have the same DF with his captain. And how the hell did a generic Straw hat remind him of Shanks but a fucking one and only Rubber fruit would not make him blah something about some captain?

!
And Buggy's reaction is not the only thing. Like I said, everyone and their dogs would know if the mother-fucking Pirate King had that DF.
Oda would totally contradict himself if he let Roger have the Rubber fruit. While with Sabo it totally made sense. That is the the difference.
The hat is something trivial to the world that Roger gave Shanks before he got famous, and even before his crew and Buggy acknowledged the power of DF.

[Cymelion]

@Sea:

Here is another reaction that indicated that was the first time he saw that fruit:

! http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3015/006iw.jpg
Buggy:Devil Fruit…!!! (meaning: "So that is the powe of a devil fruit, huh?")
And it would make extremely little sense if Buggy could underestimate an opponent that have the same DF with his captain. And how the hell did a generic Straw hat remind him of Shanks but a fucking one and only Rubber fruit would not make him blah something about some captain?

! http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2144/022vz.jpg

Buggy blames Shanks for him losing his ability to swim - also they spent a lot of time together so the Hat is representive of someone not only alive but more powerful then he.

And Buggy's reaction is not the only thing. Like I said, everyone and their dogs would know if the mother-fucking Pirate King had that DF.
Oda would totally contradict himself if he let Roger have the Rubber fruit. While with Sabo it totally made sense.
The hat is something trivial to the world that Roger gave Shanks before he got famous, and even before his crew and Buggy acknowledged the power of DF.

Again - look all through One Piece people are famous for anything other then their ability.

Red Haired Shanks
Straw Hat Luffy
Whitebeard
Blackbeard
Garp the Fist
Buggy the Clown
Kuja Empress Hancock
Pirate King Gold Roger (I know it is Gol.D)
ect. ect.

There are exceptions to that too in,
Sengoku the Buddah (from memory)
Mihawk the Greatest Swordsman.

Roger having a DF ability would rate very low in importance to what he acomplished especially if he never used it the way Luffy had. There are so many similarities coming to light that Roger having the ability would not be a stretch.
Like all the big announcements in the manga - it doesn't matter what others know we don't till it is time - how long have some of the marines known Ace was the son of Roger? How long had Ace been around for?

[Sea]

Buggy blames Shanks for him losing his ability to swim - also they spent a lot of time together so the Hat is representive of someone not only alive but more powerful then he.

Your reading comprehensive has severe problem because Buggy's reaction clearly indicated he knew nothing about the DF before he met Luffy. Got take a course.
@Cymelion:

Buggy blames Shanks for him losing his ability to swim - also they spent a lot of time together so the Hat is representive of someone not only alive but more powerful then he.

Again - look all through One Piece people are famous for anything other then their ability.

Red Haired Shanks
Straw Hat Luffy
Whitebeard
Blackbeard
Garp the Fist
Buggy the Clown
Kuja Empress Hancock
Pirate King Gold Roger (I know it is Gol.D)
ect. ect.

But everyone fucking knows what ability they have once they became famous.
Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji have read lots of book about Roger and they fucking said nothing about his DF.

[Cymelion]

@Sea:

Your reading comprehensive has severe problem because Buggy's reaction clearly indicated he knew nothing about the DF before he met Luffy. Got take a course.

Or maybe I am not reading deeply into it.
If (conditional) Oda intended for Roger to have had the Gomu DF ability then it would be revealed when it is time just like everything else in the manga - Buggy is still essential to the story so 10 years ago when he made his first appearence is maybe not the way it would be written now with 10 years experience behind him.

But everyone fucking knows what ability they have once they became famous.
Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji have read lots of book about Roger and they fucking said nothing about his DF.

Really did Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji know Whitebeard had an Earthquake ability? Hell the Earthquake ability seemed a HUGE surprise to many Marines when he used it.
You keep yelling the same thing at me "People would know people would tell him" This is not real life this is a Manga where Oda creates each panel to serve him and his story - Luffy and Roger have so many similarities coming to light and it has been emphasised several times by Oda a DF power can only exist 1 at a time so for example anyone who used the Gomu DF which had been identified in the Vegapunk book of powers ability before Luffy would have to be dead.

Believe me I am not fighting for Roger to have the Gomu fruit ability I am saying it seems like it would be a final reveal that when Luffy stands on Raftel he will have Travelled the same way Roger had - on a Ship like Rogers - With the legacy of Roger behind him - Having the same DF ability by that point would make him basically as someone said Roger Jr which means what ever decision Roger made all those years ago will have to be made by Luffy who seems to imbide the spirit of Roger.

Hopefully this is making sense.

[Sea]

Really did Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji know Whitebeard had an Earthquake ability?

Yes they did. But the DF had no connection with Luffy at all.

Hell the Earthquake ability seemed a HUGE surprise to many Marines when he used it.

No, they were surprised about how strong it was or it specific various attacks ( things you have to see with your own eyes), not that they didn't know his DF was Quake Fruit.
Everyone knew Marco has the Phoenix DF but didn't know WB has the Quake DF? That's fucking stupid.

You keep yelling the same thing at me "People would know people would tell him" This is not real life this is a Manga where Oda creates each panel to serve him and his story -

Just because this a manga doesn't mean you can ignore all logic and contradict yourself. Plot hole is plot hole.

Hopefully this is making sense.

No, it's not making any sense at all. Plot twist with no foreshadowing is ass-pulling=bad writing. Even the hat was foreshadowed 2 years ago.
Furthermore, it's completely unnecessary, if not terrible writing to have Luffy be Roger Jr.

[Louis cypher]

@Sea:

No, it not making any sense at all. Plot twist with no foreshadowing is ass-pulling=bad writing. Even the hat was foreshadowed 2 years ago.
Furthermore, it's completely unnecessary, if not terrible writing to have Luffy be Roger Jr.

His idea may be terrible but does it really make no sense to you? can you not bend your mind enough to be able to see things from his point of view?

@Cymelion:

Believe me I am not fighting for Roger to have the Gomu fruit ability I am saying it seems like it would be a final reveal that when Luffy stands on Raftel he will have Travelled the same way Roger had - on a Ship like Rogers - With the legacy of Roger behind him - Having the same DF ability by that point would make him basically as someone said Roger Jr which means what ever decision Roger made all those years ago will have to be made by Luffy who seems to imbide the spirit of Roger.

Hopefully this is making sense.

Your making sense (in that I can understand where you are coming from), however I really don't see it happening. The hat being Roger's is fine to me, it's about The current generation passing on the reins to the new generation, it's about a man seeing himself in a child and recognizing that, it's about history repeating itself, and eventually Luffy will pass the hat on to another bright young spark who will do the same, and so on. And that's fine… However, Roger having Luffy's fruit would be forced. Luffy is similar to roger, but that's because a certain kind of person does certain kinds of things i.e. go on huge adventures and have lots of fun, not because there is some sort of deeper connection between the two. That's how I see it at least.

[Cymelion]

@Sea:

Yes they did. But the DF had no connection with Luffy at all.

No, they were surprised about how strong it was or it specific various attacks ( things you have to see with your own eyes), not that they didn't know his DF was Quake Fruit.
Everyone knew Marco has the Phoenix DF but didn't know WB has the Quake DF? That's fucking stupid.

Fair Call there.

Just because this a manga doesn't mean you can ignore all logic and contradict yourself. Plot hole is plot hole.

I don't see it as a plot hole - I see it as something you just omit referencing until the time is right. Oda has 10 years of writing under his belt now I am more then confident that he could still give it as a reveal and have it make sense.

No, it not making any sense at all. Plot twist with no foreshadowing is ass-pulling=bad writing. Even the hat was foreshadowed 2 years ago.
Furthermore, it's completely unnecessary, if not terrible writing to have Luffy be Roger Jr.

How was the Hat forshadowed again?
Also Roger Jr makes sense if Luffy is to face what decision Roger faced those years ago - And Forshadowing

Luffy looks similar to Roger
Has the Hat owned by Roger
Reminds influencial people of Roger
Rides on a ship made in the way the Oro Jackson was by the apprentacies of Tom.
Has the same ambition as Roger
Has had key people from Rogers history helping him along the way.
And several times Oda has mentioned that each DF ability can only exist at one time. And yet has not had any DF ability shown in that manner - except recently for BB using WB's power - but that in itself contradicts early information that people can only use 1 DF at a time.

So was that poor writing or leading people to believe 1 thing while intending for something else to happen?

@Louis:

Your making sense (in that I can understand where you are coming from), however I really don't see it happening. The hat being Roger's is fine to me, it's about The current generation passing on the reins to the new generation, it's about a man seeing himself in a child and recognizing that, it's about history repeating itself, and eventually Luffy will pass the hat on to another bright young spark who will do the same, and so on. And that's fine… However, Roger having Luffy's fruit would be forced. Luffy is similar to roger, but that's because a certain kind of person does certain kinds of things i.e. go on huge adventures and have lots of fun, not because there is some sort of deeper connection between the two. That's how I see it at least.

Cheers - I know it seems forced and if it was true it seems there would be a few upset - but also some that didn't see it coming it would be another "Wow" moment - weither it was a wow moment for each individual or not is up to them. But if I wasn't expecting it and Roger did have the Gomu ability then I would be floored by it personally.

[Sea]

I don't see it as a plot hole - I see it as something you just omit referencing until the time is right. Oda has 10 years of writing under his belt now I am more then confident that he could still give it as a reveal and have it make sense.

It would be a plot hole to ignore that everyone knew Roger had Rubber and a Rubber fruit user like Luffy wasn't informed at all. I doesn't make a slightest sense.
That would be a tremendous plot hole and consider how consistent Oda has been in the quality of his story-telling, your theory has no chance of happening.

How was the Hat forshadowed again?

I expected the Hat to be Roger 2 years ago. My point was: Shanks said it meant a lot to him/it was his treasure when he gave that hat to Luffy. I expected the relationship between Shanks and Roger to be similar to the one between him and Luffy when I knew he was on Roger's ship.
And this:

!

@Cymelion:

Also Roger Jr makes sense if Luffy is to face what decision Roger faced those years ago - And Forshadowing

Luffy looks similar to Roger
Has the Hat owned by Roger
Reminds influencial people of Roger
Rides on a ship made in the way the Oro Jackson was by the apprentacies of Tom.
Has the same ambition as Roger
Has had key people from Rogers history helping him along the way.
And several times Oda has mentioned that each DF ability can only exist at one time. And yet has not had any DF ability shown in that manner - except recently for BB using WB's power - but that in itself contradicts early information that people can only use 1 DF at a time.

So was that poor writing or leading people to believe 1 thing while intending for something else to happen?

None of that is a valid reason to have Luffy possess the same DF with Roger. They are all acceptable somehow, because they don't really make Luffy a copy-paste of Roger, but Oda would really cross the line with Roger having the Rubber fruit. Mind you, Luffy and Roger had been shown to have differences in personalities.
It would make as much sense as Perona joining the crew.

Luffy looks similar to Roger

No, Roger was a One Piece generic pretty boy like Ace.

[Darkstorm]

Is there seriously a discussion on Luffy having a fruit that Newgate, Buggy, Shanks, Sengoku, Tsuru, Garp, Crocus et all haven't shown the slightest bit of shock about?

[Sea]

This post is deleted!

[Gladiator777]

If Roger DF was mentioned in books, then these Books should have been sold Just in The New World and maybe the First half too, Cause in East Blue Many people even Marines Are not Aware of the Existence of DFs.

[Sea]

@Darkstorm:

Is there seriously a discussion on Luffy having a fruit that Newgate, Buggy, Shanks, Sengoku, Tsuru, Garp, Crocus et all haven't shown the slightest bit of shock about?

Not only those people but the whole world are supposed to hear rumor/read information in books about Pirate King and know what fruit he had.
@Gladiator777:

If Roger DF was mentioned in books, then these Books should have been sold Just in The New World and maybe the First half too, Cause in East Blue Many people even Marines Are not Aware of the Existence of DFs.

Who said that Roger had a DF?

Cause in East Blue Many people even Marines Are not Aware of the Existence of DFs

No, they heard rumors about it. They just freaked out to see it with their own eyes.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5716/002xg.jpg

[Cymelion]

@Darkstorm:

Is there seriously a discussion on Luffy having a fruit that Newgate, Buggy, Shanks, Sengoku, Tsuru, Garp, Crocus et all haven't shown the slightest bit of shock about?

Given the Value of Serious I guess.

I'm about to head home from work - as I said.
If Roger did have the Gomu DF I would not be surprised.
If he did not have the Gomu Fruit I would not be disspointed my theory was wrong.

I enjoy One Piece for what it is - it is just a gut feeling hence no Perona like attitude and telling everyone "They can't see it" I'm putting out why I have a gut feeling and I FULLY accept that some of the counter arguments are exceedingly valid. I'm sure you have all had Gut feelings that come out wrong but while you had them you just can't shake the feeling.

[Darkstorm]

If he does it's bad writing, and that's not something I've come to expect from oda.

[Gladiator777]

@Sea:

Who said that Roger had a DF?

No, they heard rumors about it.

No one, Im just focusing my point on the Books the SHs read, It should not have any DF mentioned there.

[Sea]

This post is deleted!

[Bakajaro]

I don't think roger had a df also, but what made him so special in comparison with rayleigh?
i mean, rayleigh has mastered all colors of haki, so if roger had that too (prolly did) than he wouldn't be much different would he?
Though something that mihawk said struck me. He said that luffy has something that is very powerfull. That is to make friends or allies really quickly and have them believe in him. That is prolly what roger had too.

[Sea]

I have the gut feeling that Hancock, Nami, Robin, Vivi, Margaret will all have Luffy's babies.

@Gladiator777:

No one, Im just focusing my point on the Books the SHs read, It should not have any DF mentioned there.

Thanks. Now I am even more confident that only fodders on Roger ship like Buggy had a chance to have DF. Those who are not worth mentioning in a book.
@Bakajaro:

I don't think roger had a df also, but what made him so special in comparison with rayleigh?
i mean, rayleigh has mastered all colors of haki, so if roger had that too (prolly did) than he wouldn't be much different would he?
Though something that mihawk said struck me. He said that luffy has something that is very powerfull. That is to make friends or allies really quickly and have them believe in him. That is prolly what roger had too.

And the ability to hear the voice of all thing.
Maybe it's just a natural gift that only close friends knew.

[Bakajaro]

@Sea:

And the ability to hear the voice of all thing.
Maybe it's just a natural gift that only close friends knew.

'the voice of all things' isn't that just CoO? when was that first mentioned do you know that?
cuz i'd like to look into that.

[Gladiator777]

There should not be Much Similarties between Roger and Luffy.
Luffy Inherited Roger's Will and Straw Hat.

But don't forget that Roger used a Sword and a Pistolet, and He Had many Crewmates unlike Luffy.

@Bakajaro:

'the voice of all things' isn't that just CoO? when was that first mentioned do you know that?
cuz i'd like to look into that.

!

Its not CoO, or else Rayleigh wouldn't say it, Let aside him being able to use it too.
Zoro Showed may have used this power before againt Mr. 1 in ordr to cut the Steel.

[Cyclone_Baroness]

@Cymelion:

Again - If Roger did have the Gomu Fruit ability - Oda can allow for all situations resulting in the ability being convayed to Luffy to not happen.

Why would Garp tell Luffy who Idolises Pirates including the Pirate King that he had the same DF ability.
Why would Shanks tell Luffy - Oh you just ate the Pirate Kings DF - he wants to see what Luffy will become hence "betting on the next generation"
Buggy hates Luffy - less so since the war - and all the times involving Buggy haven't allowed for them to have indepth discussions.
Marines - well their all too busy trying to capture him for the crimes he is responsible for why bother bringing up how the ability is the same as Rogers.

Average person out there - They know the names of famous pirates and the things they have done - abilities just don't seem important.
Name > DF Ability it seems.

All I can say is that Luffy having Rogers DF would be the type of full cycle story arc that would make sense after all the revelations and comparisons between Roger and Luffy are coming to light.

This is something I'm not getting. I thought it was said there are no two same DF. Why would Luffy have one the same as Roger?

Also someone else brought up Shanks having a DF. Did he aquire it after saving Luffy? Cause he swam pretty good. Did he have the Swim swim fruit? :ninja:

I'm a firm believer that Roger and Shanks are purely human. I think it makes for a more interesting story to have "regular" humans able to accomplish so much in a world full of the extraordinary humanoids and whatnot. It's why I like Zoro so much.

More back on topic. I sort of did roll my eyes after they made even more parallels between Luffy and Roger. I would prefer a kid that wanted to be pirate king with no lineage linked in any way to him getting to be Pirate King because he had the moxy, grit and charisma to do it.

[Sea]

@Gladiator777:

There should not be Much Similarties between Roger and Luffy.
Luffy Inherited Roger's Will and Straw Hat.

But don't forget that Roger used a Sword and a Pistolet, and He Had many Crewmates unlike Luffy.

Speaking of Luffy and Roger's difference. here is what I posted in the Spoiler thread:

Roger and Ace was more extreme, and never ran away. While Luffy, thanks to the influence from a semi-Pacifist like Shanks has become more laid back. Shanks's philosophy is that running away is also part of becoming a man, and wanted his captain to run. That is where Shanks disagreed with Roger:

!

!

Roger and Ace easily got pissed over petty insults (which is why Ace is dead), unlike Shanks who could just laugh it off and Luffy who later learned to do that.

!

[Gladiator777]

@Cyclone_Baroness:

This is something I'm not getting. I thought it was said there are no two same DF. Why would Luffy have one the same as Roger?

Also someone else brought up Shanks having a DF. Did he aquire it after saving Luffy? Cause he swam pretty good. Did he have the Swim swim fruit? :ninja:

I'm a firm believer that Roger and Shanks are purely human. I think it makes for a more interesting story to have "regular" humans able to accomplish so much in a world full of the extraordinary humanoids and whatnot. It's why I like Zoro so much.

More back on topic. I sort of did roll my eyes after they made even more parallels between Luffy and Roger. I would prefer a kid that wanted to be pirate king with no lineage linked in any way to him getting to be Pirate King because he had the moxy, grit and charisma to do it.

Roger Died Before Luffy was Born, so there is a possibility the Fruit Grew Back.

Shanks could have ate a DF after he saved luffy.

[Tsukishima]

@Bakajaro:

'the voice of all things' isn't that just CoO?

Yeah, I always thought Gold Roger had the best CoO of the world.

[Sea]

This post is deleted!

[Gladiator777]

@Sea:

Speaking of Luffy and Roger's difference. here is what I posted in the Spoiler thread:

Roger and Ace easily got pissed over petty insults (which is why Ace is dead), unlike Shanks who could just laugh it off and Luffy who later learned to do that.

! http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3928/001ua.jpg
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3715/selfish.png

So Luffy Got teh Best of Roger and Shanks Personality, thus making him a Perfect PK.

@Sea:

I have the gut feeling that Hancock, Nami, Robin will have Luffy's babies.

That would make a Good Drama with "Fight over the Throne" as the main subject.
So Luffy got the Best of Roger and Shanks Personality, thus making him a Perfect Pirate king.

[Cyclone_Baroness]

@Gladiator777:

Roger Died Before Luffy was Born, so there is a possibility the Fruit Grew Back.

Shanks could have ate a DF after he saved luffy.

The fruit regrows after the user dies?

I just couldn't see Shanks eating a DF. Or Roger for that matter.

[Bakajaro]

@Gladiator777:

Its not CoO, or else Rayleigh wouldn't say it, Let aside him being able to use it too.
Zoro Showed may have used this power before againt Mr. 1 in ordr to cut the Steel.

ow Rayleigh actually said that! Wow must have forgotten that part. This actually proves, unlike what some people are saying, that Zoro didn't use Haki in Alabasta. That is, until is proven that what rayleigh said was actually CoO (but i think you're right and that it is something else.)
But why is he refering that to the question of robin of whetever roger could read ponyglyphs? (maybe roger could hear dead people:blink: lols)
conclusion: reading ponyglypsh something something sound of al things something something prolly not haki something something raftel, void century.

[Gladiator777]

@Cyclone_Baroness:

The fruit regrows after the user dies?

I just couldn't see Shanks eating a DF. Or Roger for that matter.

Its not Confirmed, Just Fan Speculation…

[Mugiwara_kun]

@Bakajaro:

ow Rayleigh actually said that! Wow must have forgotten that part. This actually proves, unlike what some people are saying, that Zoro didn't use Haki in Alabasta. That is, until is proven that what rayleigh said was actually CoO (but i think you're right and that it is something else.)
But why is he refering that to the question of robin of whetever roger could read ponyglyphs? (maybe roger could hear dead people:blink: lols)
conclusion: reading ponyglypsh something something sound of al things something something prolly not haki something something raftel, void century.

Well in my view since i think Haki comes from the kingdom that was lost during the Void Century, it would make sense that someone with an exceptional CoO could be used to read the Poneglyphs they left. I always thought that Roger's inspiring of the whole world right before he died was an exceptional release of King's Haki, but instead of stunning people he inspired them. In my view, Roger had no Devil Fruit, just MONSTROUS Haki.