@JERK:
Yeah, if someone can't feel bad for Luffy that Ace died. Why would the same scenario with Sabo make them any better?
And quite frankly what would be wrong with someone that they didn't feel bad for Luffy? Even people who hate Ace can feel bad for Luffy here.
People on NPC for instance.
Thank you.
I, for one, hate Ace, but it hurts me to see Luffy in so much pain. Luffy's optimism and endless joy has been shattered. It MAY be temporary, but it's still painful to see.
@Cyan:
Never played Earthbound or Mother 3, have you?
No I have not.
Heard of them though.
But everybody dies in flashback
How can it not happen
The King will die, his throat will be slit by Dragon and we will all smile:)
Heh, doubt Dragon will slit someone's throat, unless Oda plans Dragon to be a anti-hero, which I doubt
Dragon has brought dooms to many kingdoms anyway. I doubt that he lets the royal families survive. Down with Feudalism.
But I think it is the Tenryuubito that Dragon aims to this time.
I'm going to hell for this.. but….
! Sabo's little 'brother' looks a hell of a lot like Duval.
@Sea:
Dragon has brought dooms to many kingdoms anyway. I doubt that he lets the royal families survive. Down with the Feudalism.
But I think it is the Tenryuubito that Dragon aims to this time.
Personally, I like to think that the kings were arrested
Besides, let's remember that the plans of Dragon aren't necessarily violent, after all, one of them involved Ivankok turning the king into a woman so that he would leave embarrassed 
Dragon is the mastermind behind the riots in many kingdoms that develope into revolutions eventually, but i don't think he has to dirty his hands to the extend of killing royalty himself, his ever new found followers are the ones that'd enjoy slitting their king's throats much more anyway.
If your father is a dumbass, and your son is a dumbass, that means you are very smart.
Dragon is the mastermind behind the riots in many kingdoms that develope into revolutions eventually, but i don't think he has to dirty his hands to the extend of killing royalty himself, his ever new found followers are the ones that'd enjoy slitting their king's throats much more anyway.
Good point.
@Sea:
If your father is a dumbass, and your son is a dumbass, that means you are very smart.
Nah, i still think that Dragon profits from a really good education he had and the reason why Garp made Luffy and Ace grow up as savages is that he didn't want to take the risk of creating another genius revolutionist that becomes a great threat to the WG and Marines.
Luffy's IQ is probably like 160 :ninja:
…
… ... ... ... ... ... ... ...it's the mucus that bites us! 
I'm going to hell for this.. but….
! Sabo's little 'brother' looks a hell of a lot like Duval.
He isn't handsome enough to be Duval.
2nd Member of Vepe's Pack!
You're so awesome puffin. Thank God you just barely joined in 2009.
Nah, i still think that Dragon profits from a really good education he had and the reason why Garp made Luffy and Ace grow up as savages is that he didn't want to take the risk of creating another genius revolutionist that becomes a great threat to the WG and Marines.
Luffy's IQ is probably like 160 :ninja:
So, contrary to the entire point of your post, Luffy is actually a genius?
@Uncle:
So, contrary to the entire point of your post, Luffy is actually a genius?
Redundant genius.
I predict that Sabo will write “Preliminary Draft Theses on the National and the Colonial Questions” and "April Theses" at the age of 10.
@Uncle:
So, contrary to the entire point of your post, Luffy is actually a genius?
Well, he was born a genius, but continues love fists could have slighly lessened his potential… and he just doesn't care about books and stuff since he got to taste the wonderful taste of crocodile meat, which thereafter consumed his mind by the power of gluttony.
Also, there is no contradiction in my previous post.
@'DarkKing':
Or lower:wassat:
Probably higher .
@Sea:
Probably higher .
Exactly, if he ever starts gathering informations in his head, his IQ skyrockets even higher!
…
… ... ... ... ... ... ... ...it's the mucus that bites us! 
Exactly, if he ever starts gathering informations in his head, his IQ skyrockets even higher!
According to my research over the years, it is because of the Gomu Gomu no Mi. You know, rubber is immune to electricity. And you also know his brain is made of Rubber.
Nerve impulse…Nerve impulse...How the hell do they transmit electrical nerve impulses?
Luffy probably was a member of Mensa at the age of 2.
Yeah, that's right! Blame the Devil Fruit! No one can touch out researches now!
If it not for the fruit Luffy would have figured E=mc² years ago.
At the King Council they said that Dragon's thought is dangerous. I wonder what is it? Anti-féodalisme? Anachronist system overthrowing? Bourgeois revolution? Revolutionary Democratic capitalism?
[hide]
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LOL. JK. Not like One Piece is that realistic. Maybe Dragon just wants to overthrow WG and found another feudal system, as something revelant to the ancient kingdom. Will of D or some shit like that.
But it would be fun if he behead Vivi.
dragon may be luffys last enemy…
I never said they die just for emotional drama, but emotional drama is a big important part of it. It's the big emotional payoff that make flashbacks memorable.
LOL. So Sabo has to die to make this flashback memorable for you?
This is ridiculous. There is no problem with Sabo's fake death making this flashback memorable and making the readers feel sympathy toward the main character. If Sabo really dies, it is for the sole purpose of satisfying people who thirst for drama shit like you. And I hope One Piece is not that cheap.
Unlike Tom, Sabo is not a mentor, and he can play an important role in the future, with his youth and talent.
@Aka:
dragon may be luffys last enemy…
How about: The revolutionary army attack Alabasta to overthrow feudalism. And Luffy want to protect Vivi?
Basically the main problem in society that this flashback shows us is the problem of social class system. And the solution for it is equality. I would be disappointed if Dragon's "dangerous thought" is just "WG bad, nobles bad, I kill them". Not that I expect something so complicated, but at least let the revolution have a solid point.
@Sea:
LOL. So Sabo has to die to make this flashback memorable for you?
I never said Sabo has to die. My entire point is that it's too early to dismiss the possibility of Sabo dying, which some people insist in doing. "Sabo won't die". How can anyone know that?
This is ridiculous. There is no problem with Sabo's fake death making it memorable and making readers feel sympathy toward the main character. If Sabo die, it is for the sole purpose of making people who thirst for drama shit like you. And I hope One Piece is not that cheap.
What I find amusing about yours, Jerk Disease's and some other's attitudes is that you just completely dismiss the possibility of something happening just because you don't want it happening.
…
Seems like I can't post an opinion without being bashed by the very same three or four guys over and over, so I'll just wait. The flashback will end in one to three chapters ahead anyway.
I never said Sabo has to die. My entire point is that it's too early to dismiss the possibility of Sabo dying, which some people insist in doing. "Sabo won't die".
Blah Blah Blah
What I find amusing about yours, Jerk Disease's and some other's attitudes is that you just completely dismiss the possibility of something happening just because you don't want it happening.
…
Blah Blah Blah...
You don't understand the point. I am not predicting anything. I am just criticizing the plot with Sabo dying in a sad sad sad way.
We say Sabo won't die because we have faith in Oda.:ninja: We believe that Oda, as a good writer, won't do such ridiculous things.:ninja:
If Sabo dies pessimistically, it would be a redundant drama. And the flashback is just cheap.
@JERK:
It would still make for redundant drama. Which would be extra dumb to have in a flashback directly after and partly in response to the previous drama.
Also Sabo's character has been far too built up and focused on to just be a catalyst for Oda showing why Luffy is extra sad about Ace, which is also an incredibly pointless reason for the flashback to take place as it produces nothing new and just reinforces and already well driven home point.
That Luffy is sad that Ace died.
Oda had Sabo mentioned as early as when Ace was saying his final word and knowing Oda he probably won't introduced a character like this just to die
I don't have any problems if he does die, I trust Oda to make it emotional and epic as usual, however this isn't Oda's style. He will most likely secure this flashbacks relevance by keeping Sabo alive…
All the other SH flashbacks either had to do with the motivation of their dream and, also something that is directly affecting the current arc (usually) so I think that not only will Sabo survive this but we will see him again very soon..
I don't have any problems if he does die, I trust Oda to make it emotional and epic as usual,
Oda is not God .
So, if Sabo dies, will you use AGOG-defense and say the series jumped the shark or Oda has lost his mind?
Of course, you will answer that you have faith in Oda and he would never do it. But isn't that negating the possibility that Sabo may die, and thus pure prediction, which you just said you're not doing?
So, if Sabo dies, will you use AGOG-defense and say the series jumped the shark or Oda has lost his mind?
Of course, you will answer that you have faith in Oda and he would never do it. But isn't that negating the possibility that Sabo may die, and thus pure prediction, which you just said you're not doing?
Ex:
I had faith that Brennen would be Admin. If he didn't, I would be disappointed.
That doesn't mean I said Brennen had the 100% possibility of becoming admin.
If Sabo dies pessimistically, it would be a bad writing. Be disappointed.
What I assume is based on Oda's style of writing.
And there, you are wrong my friend…
Oda is Kami.
@Sea:
If Sabo dies, it would be a bad writing. Be disappointed.
What I assume is based on Oda's style of writing.
Oh, yeah? And I think that, if Sabo dies, Oda will do it in a way that you'll like it. If not in the same chapter he dies, but over the few chapters following it.
And I also think that, if Sabo does not die, Oda will do it in a way that I'll like it.
Because that's what he always does.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
If you told people Ace was going to die a while back, (some people would be really happy) but most would be pissed (fangirls) but now looking back on how he did it, I would want it no other way. It heart wrenching and very well done,,
Same thing would happen with Sabo, Oda will make it great, guaranteed….
Oh, yeah? And I think that, if Sabo dies, Oda will do it in a way that you'll like it. If not in the same chapter he dies, but over the few chapters following it.
And I also think that, if Sabo does not die, Oda will do it in a way that I'll like it.
Because that's what he always does.
So just more Oda cock sucking? This posts sounds like Oda has never done anything in this story that you outright disliked but went in to situations you didn't like or thought you wouldn't like and did it in a way where you ended up liking it.
It's like sheep feigning skepticism.
If Perona joins, Oda will do it in a way that I'll like it.
If Whitebeard survives, Oda will do it in a way that I'll like it.
If Luffy dies in the war, Oda will do it in way that I'll like it.
If Belemere revives, Oda will do it in way that I'll like it.
Blah Blah Blah
–-----
If Whitebeard had survived, Greg would have stopped reading One Piece. So would I.
@Sea:
If Perona joins, Oda will do it in a way that I'll like it.
If Whitebeard survives, Oda will do it in a way that I'll like it.
If Luffy dies in the war, Oda will do it in way that I'll like it.
Blah Blah Blah
–-----
If Whitebeard had survived, Greg would have stopped reading One Piece.
But these things didn't happen because Oda knows what he is doing
Remember Oda sees all, Oda hears all, Oda knows all
Oda is God..amen
Ask ourselves what purpose this flashback serves.
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
So just more Oda cock sucking? This posts sounds like Oda has never done anything in this story that you outright disliked but went in to situations you didn't like or thought you wouldn't like and did it in a way where you ended up liking it.
It's like sheep feigning skepticism.
It's not that he never did anything I disliked. But so far everything I disliked went in a new unexpected direction that in the end I got to like.
That's why I said "If not in the same, over the few chapters following it."
Sometimes a development may seem awkward or unnecessary, like Luffy losing his hat and getting it returned before he woke up to find it missing. However, the seemingly irrelevant plot point led to Law getting intrigued by the hat, so we know that seed has not been wasted and something will come out of it.
When people here just disregard the possibility of Sabo dying or that Oda may want a sad end to this flashback in order to enhance our understanding of Luffy's suffering, they don't like it because they think that will lead to a crappy emo series. That's not how I see it.
IMO, for Luffy's reckovery to be powerful, we will first experience his sadness, and then something will happen to lift that up, and that sadness will make that moment much more powerful.
However, I'm not disregarding the possibility of the flashback ending in another way. I do have some trouble seeing how could it end in a way that would make it natural to return to Luffy's present sorrowful state without creating some emotional dissonance, but I'm sure that, if that happened, Oda would do it in a way that would end up being satisfying, even if the initial impression is not that good.
Edit: It's not that Oda's perfect. He isn't. But he is a really talented storyteller who knows very well where he's going with his story. So, even when some details may bother us, the story continues to be compelling, and sooner or later we find out that the annoyance had its purpose in the greater scheme of things.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
If you told people Ace was going to die a while back, (some people would be really happy) but most would be pissed (fangirls) but now looking back on how he did it, I would want it no other way. It heart wrenching and very well done,,
Same thing would happen with Sabo, Oda will make it great, guaranteed….
I don't remmember anyone said "if Ace dies it will be a cheap writing".
Of course Oda's has done some things that are not my favorite in the story, he's human after all, but he's proven himself a damn good story teller. I think what Deicide is trying to say is that he can often make something happen that is unexpected and find a way to make it work in the story–for example Ace's death. Fer crying out loud, he was uncuffed, off the platform and running for the ships. Did you see that coming at that point, because I certainly did not-and had I simply been told he would die without being told how and why, I'm sure I would NOT have been behind the idea, despite NOT being an Ace fangirl, thankyouverymuch. Yet it certainly worked, (and this flashback has made that tendancy of Ace's to never turn on a confrontation a whole lot more poignant.)
My point is, that given that level of talent, it may be entirely possible for Oda to make Sabo's death work, whether we can see it right now or not. The reason is that Oda knows where he's going with the story, and we do not. Simple as that.
Yo dawgs, I heard you like some death in your flashbacks, so I put some death on the flashback on this death so that you can flashback to the flashback in the death in the flashback.
Sometimes a development may seem awkward or unnecessary, like Luffy losing his hat and getting it returned before he woke up to find it missing. However, the seemingly irrelevant plot point led to Law getting intrigued by the hat, so we know that seed has not been wasted and something will come out of it.
I didn't know ppl thought Law's alleged interest in Luffy's hat was a growing sub plot in the story. This is news to me. No sarcasm.
When people here just disregard the possibility of Sabo dying or that Oda may want a sad end to this flashback in order to enhance our understanding of Luffy's suffering, they don't like it because they think that will lead to a crappy emo series. That's not how I see it.
Sabo could die but like the other's said given Oda's level of writing it's doubtful as of now. I don't know why you think the flashback can't have a sad ending without Sabo's actual death.
I haven't seen many saying what you're talking about would lead to an emo series but if they are I think that's more to do with how you're explaining it.
I already responded to your post about us understanding Luffy's suffering by Oda giving us a past death of a brother but to be short it doesn't make sense and seems to be entirely unnecessary if that is truly the aim of this flashback.
IMO, for Luffy's reckovery to be powerful, we will first experience his sadness, and then something will happen to lift that up, and that sadness will make that moment much more powerful.
However, I'm not disregarding the possibility of the flashback ending in another way. I do have some trouble seeing how could it end in a way that would make it natural to return to Luffy's present sorrowful state without creating some emotional dissonance, but I'm sure that, if that happened, Oda would do it in a way that would end up being satisfying, even if the initial impression is not that good.
We've been experiencing his sadness since he passed out and woke up in the forest rampaging in anger and despair.
As for returning to Luffy, Oda could just end this flashback and just time skip to a year later.
For the ppl saying there must be a(n) (important) death in this flashback since it's some unwritten rule(you all just turning a pattern in to a universal fact) remember there was some unbreakable rule where nobody died either.
@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
I didn't know ppl thought Law's alleged interest in Luffy's hat was a growing sub plot in the story. This is news to me. No sarcasm.
Just give a look at Law's panels in these pages:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/580/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/582/08/
I have no idea where this is going, but it doesn't seem to be just random panels.
Sabo could die but like the other's said given Oda's level of writing it's doubtful as of now. I don't know why you think the flashback can't have a sad ending without Sabo's actual death.
I haven't seen many saying what you're talking about would lead to an emo series but if they are I think that's more to do with how you're explaining it.
I'm not really good at explaining anything. English is not my main language and I find it hard to make compelling texts in it.
I already responded to your post about us understanding Luffy's suffering by Oda giving us a past death of a brother but to be short it doesn't make sense and seems to be entirely unnecessary if that is truly the aim of this flashback.
We've been experiencing his sadness since he passed out and woke up in the forest rampaging in anger and despair.
I disagree. I think we won't ever agree here, but I'll explain how I feel about it.
Ace died. Luffy passed out. We knew he was shocked, but we didn't really see his conscious reaction and thoughts to Ace's death until chapter 582, and then the flashback began.
Ace's death was shocking to readers, but not in the same way as the death of some flashback characters. We readers didn't have much time to bond with Ace; some were fans of him, but I remember a lot even mocking him for dying because of his own stupidity.
I dare to say that Whitebeard's death was more shocking and emotional (to us readers) than Ace's, because the war made a lot of us like and admire the old man.
So, back to Luffy, we have so far seen exactly half a chapter of Luffy's reacting to Ace's death. In that he showed some stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining… The next steps are depression and acceptance. We really haven't delved into the depression stage yet, but some could argue the final pages before the flashback were about Luffy entering it. That's the point Jinbei begins to shed tears.
I think this flashback will have a sad ending because I think we will feel Luffy's depression and later his acceptance. That's it. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Oda won't follow the common five stages of grief and do something different. Maybe Luffy's crying for a few panels before the flashback were the entire stage of depression. But for now I think that's the most likely outcome. We will know in few weeks.
As for returning to Luffy, Oda could just end this flashback and just time skip to a year later.
It could happen. I just don't think it will be so, but who am I to know anything?
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
Just give a look at Law's panels in these pages:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/580/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/582/08/I have no idea where this is going, but it doesn't seem to be just random panels.
I knew what you were referring to but I don't consider it that important as far as creating a subplot. I'm just not quick call it a "seed" say it'll bear fuit down the line when it could just be dismissed.
I'm not really good at explaining anything. English is not my main language and I find it hard to make compelling texts in it.
Oh, well guess you'll have to deal with the things lost in translation.
I disagree. I think we won't ever agree here, but I'll explain how I feel about it.
Ace died. Luffy passed out. We knew he was shocked, but we didn't really see his conscious reaction and thoughts to Ace's death until chapter 582, and then the flashback began.
Ace's death was shocking to readers, but not in the same way as the death of some flashback characters. We readers didn't have much time to bond with Ace; some were fans of him, but I remember a lot even mocking him for dying because of his own stupidity.
I dare to say that Whitebeard's death was more shocking and emotional (to us readers) than Ace's, because the war made a lot of us like and admire the old man.
So, back to Luffy, we have so far seen exactly half a chapter of Luffy's reacting to Ace's death. In that he showed some stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining… The next steps are depression and acceptance. We really haven't delved into the depression stage yet, but some could argue the final pages before the flashback were about Luffy entering it. That's the point Jinbei begins to shed tears.
I think this flashback will have a sad ending because I think we will feel Luffy's depression and later his acceptance. That's it. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Oda won't follow the common five stages of grief and do something different. Maybe Luffy's crying for a few panels before the flashback were the entire stage of depression. But for now I think that's the most likely outcome. We will know in few weeks.
It could happen. I just don't think it will be so, but who am I to know anything?
Ignoring the part about shock since some ppl saw both their deaths coming just not how I'd have to ask why you think Luffy has to go through the 5 stages of grief? Granted his acceptance will come but he could've just went from anger/depression to acceptance. I just don't see how one death Luffy's was suposed to go through resolves his feelings for Ace's death.
There's the chance the flashback has an entirely different relevance to the story since it already has some familiar themes being brought up.
Nice chapter. Maybe next week we'll see who is calling Dragon "Babe". Luffy's mom hopefully :D
Out of all the chocolate manga, I'll take One Piece!
Ace's death was shocking to readers, but not in the same way as the death of some flashback characters. We readers didn't have much time to bond with Ace; some were fans of him, but I remember a lot even mocking him for dying because of his own stupidity.
Ace's death is a good thing for almost everyone. Those who hate Ace want he dead, he is dead, pefect. Ace's fans crying over Ace's death, serving Oda's dramatic purpose, perfect. Those who don't like nor hate him, didn't think Ace would die, they were surpised; good plot. And Ace's death serve other purposes, like an important step for Luffy to grow up or something, etc.
I dare to say that Whitebeard's death was more shocking and emotional (to us readers) than Ace's, because the war made a lot of us like and admire the old man.
Almost everyone know WB was going to die. Nothing shocking. Just epic.
I think this flashback will have a sad ending because I think we will feel Luffy's depression and later his acceptance.
IMO, for Luffy's reckovery to be powerful, we will first experience his sadness,
Oda may want a sad end to this flashback in order to enhance our understanding of Luffy's suffering
We already feel Luffy's depression.
So if your father dies in your hand, you will go remember what happen when your mother died?
Yeah yeah yeah the readers already pretty much feel the sadness, now let me awesomely build up an awesome character and then kill him off just to make them feel even sadder and sadder and sadder and tear their feeling apart yeah yeah yeah.
That death is cheap. Serving the sole purpose of making readers cry.
Belemere, Tom, Hiruluk, Saul,etc played super important roles in character development for the Straw hat. And you are saying Sabo needs to die just to make us and Luffy feel even sadder. And then something else makes him stop being sad.
Luffy doesn't need Sabo's sad death. He needs something optimistic to gain the strength to recover and look forward the future. If Sabo is not that thing and he is already dead, then he plays absolute no role in the story other than gaining some tears from hardcore fans, which is cheeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaapppp!!!!!!!!
If you want drama go watch cheap films that try to make audiences cry at any cost, which is as many as salt in desert.
And I think that, if Sabo dies, Oda will do it in a way that you'll like it.
You. Feel free to enjoy cheap films. I can't.
@Sea:
I quoted the wrong part so you misunderstood my point. I said that Oda wouldn't kill someone off just to make reader cry.
Yup. Pretty much.
he may play the drama of it to heighen the tension of the moment, but most of the time, to the detriment of overall fear in the story, any and all characters SURVIVED. Ace and Whitebeard are the first big realtime deaths.
Pell, Franky Family, random pirate at Sabondy, every villain ever… Every last one of them survived. Because Oda doesn't randomly kill characters just to make people cry.
Its also why Merry's death was so effective.
He plays at the sad emotion, but then he triggers the happy later b showing "oh wait, they survived!" rather than having a funeral aftermath.
Until now.
@robbybedfart:
Yup. Pretty much.
he may play the drama of it to heighen the tension of the moment, but most of the time, to the detriment of overall fear in the story, any and all characters SURVIVED. Ace and Whitebeard are the first big realtime deaths.
Pell, Franky Family, random pirate at Sabondy, every villain ever… Every last one of them survived. Because Oda doesn't randomly kill characters just to make people cry.
Its also why Merry's death was so effective.
He plays at the sad emotion, but then he triggers the happy later b showing "oh wait, they survived!" rather than having a funeral aftermath.
Until now.
I'm sure he'll still pull that card. It get pretty tiring if EVERYONE died.
Infact, I'd be surprised if Bon Clay was REALLY dead.
