there you see how dumb religion is…
or was it just a movie-clichee many years ago?
Afterlife
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God's Assistant: This man just committed murder.
God: Hellbound.
God's Assistant: Yes sir!God's Assistant: This man is a good person who donates blood, gives to the poor, runs an orphanage, and cares for 3 children of his own while bedding his ill wife.
God: Heaven.
God's Assistant: He also doesn't believe in God.
God: HELLBOUND!!! -
@Don:
there you see how dumb religion is…
or was it just a movie-clichee many years ago?Well i'm not sure there is a rule stating what you should to to enter paradise. I'm wondering how many debates there will be at the gateway regarding this point you raised because it simply doesn't make sense. But hey i'm willing to meet someone who hasn't lied even once in his life.
I'm therefore assuming that living according to the christian rules is pretty much impossible.
Though the believers have the option to beg for pardon while the non believer… Regarding how controversial and twisted the whole thing is i wonder if it hasn't actually be made by humans cause... -
@MagneticMonkey
let me brainstorm a bitisn`t that kind of stupid that you can actually "beg" for your merci?
i mean in buddhismus you will be reborn and you have your next try…
but here you have to "beg" so that the things you done wrong seem to be forgiven forever?i mean the whole "jesus will forgive all of you, died for your sins"-motiv everybody likes , is just the perfect excuse to make mistakes(be human) and actually the religion allows\needs it.thats the purpose of christanity.
they WANT to have those sinners ! YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE IN GOD!!
uhh yeah than i will come to paradise..loljust to believe in "god" gives you a better chance to come to heaven than being a nicce person from the start and just don
t believe in "god". don
t see a reason to chose religion..doesn`t this actually make the world a more "bad" place.also you said, that most of the things are made up by humans…
sure it is..
everything is made up by humans, cause they feared to be punished for their sins..
always humanity was afraid of something "higher\allmighty", cause we couldn`t explain lot of things which are in this world.
nowadays science can explain a lot of things(sure not all) and suddenly the "allmighty god", which was created by HUMANS to allow them still to "beg" after they died cause of their sinfull lifes, becomes more and more an illusion..they will lose their only excuse to be a sinful human.:blink:what stays when the one you created to have in the end a way to make your soul clear just becomes an illusion (as it always was)..
YOU WILL FEAR AGAIN..YOU WILL DO EVERYTHING SO THAT THIS LAST HOPE WILL NEVER VANISH !!
you will deny everything, just so you can have your made up "god", who protects your soul by "just" believing in him…
(and religion was sure also good for many "evil" humans to make money out of it..just look at the vatikan..getting money from the people who are afraid isnt mean..thats "normal" religion could be called a "bully" who frightens you by sending you to hell when you don
t cooperate but when you pay and with closed eyes believe in him, he will protect you.)don
t be worried in your real life..here you can be human,someone who lies and isn
t always perfect..
in the end you just have to beg to your imagination god and all will be good -
Religion was created for social control.
We don't need it anymore, but people are still clinging to the concept, and I haven't got any problem with them, unless they have twisted beliefs/try to impose them on me.
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Religion was created for social control.
uhh you mean we could achieve a theocracy..well the pope sure gives the best to create that in his "new world order":happy:
but i always thought democracy,oligarchy,monarchy or dictatorship were created for that reason.
but well, religion sure gives the best brain-washes, there you`re right. -
Some dude: Moses!! We are leading a helluva lot of slaves, and there are problem beginning to appear; minor skirmishes, some sexual come-ons and so on. How do we keep them in control!?
Moses: Tell them there is a big man in the sky, and if they do bad things, he will punish them.
And so religion was created.
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@Tupac's:
And so you think atheism or for that matter any theism not concerned with the Abrahamic god is on this level as their both hellbound.
The concern with the mere existence of god is absurd. Do you seriously value that over living a good life. Why is it of any relevance so long as a life is lived well.
Is Gandhi in hell? Is Socrates? Virtually every person east of Pakistan and north of Malaysia? You do realize this includes Eiichiro Oda himself?
Explain one thing hideous about it.
Because the propagating of a religion with this as a keystone shifts the role of that God from shepherd expecting righteous living, to a being of petulant ego. A hideous tyrant.
You just don't get it do you? The concept of religion is not as simple as that. If you don't believe in God and then ask me why is not believing in Him such a crime, what can I say? To me its a crime because I see Him as someone who has granted upon me countless gifts. Someone who cares for me more then anyone else. I see Him as someone who gave me life, thought, freedom to act, freedom to think, love, happiness, pleasure, satisfaction, intelligence, will, the power to decide whats wrong and right, friends, family, food, money… A never ending list. I see Him responsible for everything I have. In every action of every being I see His presence. So, I believe in Him. After everything He's done for me, if I deny even the fact that He exists, isn't that the worst possible thing I can do to Him? Thats why its hideous. Thats why I have to value His existence over mine. This is what it means to have ABSOLUTE TRUST on someone. Because I feel thats what He deserves.
How would I know where Ghandhi or Socrates is?? Or where Oda will go for that matter? I don't even know where I am going, but sure hope its heaven.
What is good or bad?? Why an American soldier who dies after killing dozens deserves a medal while a normal citizen who just accidentally killed his neighbor while practicing wrestling moves deserve life-sentence? The simple answer is because these are rules! If you follow the rules you are good, if you don't you are bad!! You follow the rules laid down by society, I follow those laid by Allah. Society says don't kill, so you don't kill. Allah says don't kill so I don't kill. Whats so wrong with that??
@ onionsoup: Don't worry about that. No harm done
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^^ and here the discussion begins
will we once again see zephos win..it will be an interesting match eating some chips -
To me its a crime because I see Him as someone who has granted upon me countless gifts. Someone who cares for me more then anyone else. I see Him as someone who gave me life, thought, freedom to act, freedom to think, love, happiness, pleasure, satisfaction, intelligence, will, the power to decide whats wrong and right, friends, family, food, money… A never ending list. I see Him responsible for everything I have. In every action of every being I see His presence.
Yeah ok i can understand that. This is what you believe he does for you and…
So, I believe in Him.
You believe in him because you believes that he gave you everything you had? How does that make sense?
After everything He's done for me, if I deny even the fact that He exists, isn't that the worst possible thing I can do to Him?
If there is a god out there which you have no proof of. If there is a god out there who worked that hard to make everything so perfect in your life it would be a shame for you to deny his existence.
Though if we might discuss this point. It's interesting since you said he gave us that much. Though with our intelligence we're unable to proove that he exists. In my years spent in catechism i've been told that we human have such a limited brain and vision that we will never even be able to comprehend god or understand how he exists.
So what else do you have to base all your assumptions on? You're believing. You ignore everything your senses and brain tells you and believe that there has to be a creature out there who granted with everything you have.
Is it a crime if someone uses the tools you believe god gave to him to actually come to the conclusion that he doesn't exists? Though this person would still be glad to be alive and do the best out of it? What if this guy live the same life as you do?
Would you still say:Thats why its hideous.
?
Thats why I have to value His existence over mine. This is what it means to have ABSOLUTE TRUST on someone. Because I feel thats what He deserves.
Let's put it like this: "God gave me all those tools and i used them as i could thus came to the conclusion that he doesn't exist". Who's to be blamed at the end if i don't believe he exists?
I'm also questioning the concept of a god who obviously don't want to be seen or be touched, who writes in his commandements that you should worship him and sends you to hell if you don't follow it. Such a flawed argumentation could have only been thought up by humans.
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Such a flawed argumentation could have only been thought up by humans.
I think that almost sums up everything about religion.
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Yeah ok i can understand that. This is what you believe he does for you and…
You believe in him because you believes that he gave you everything you had? How does that make sense?I am not trying to prove WHY I believe in Him, I am trying to prove WHY for someone who believes in Him, its such a crime not to believe in Him. For someone who doesn't even believe He exist its impossible to understand why He would deal out such judgement on the mere fact that you don't believe.
If there is a god out there which you have no proof of. If there is a god out there who worked that hard to make everything so perfect in your life it would be a shame for you to deny his existence.
This was my point.
Though if we might discuss this point. It's interesting since you said he gave us that much. Though with our intelligence we're unable to proove that he exists. In my years spent in catechism i've been told that we human have such a limited brain and vision that we will never even be able to comprehend god or understand how he exists.
I can understand that. People reach different conclusions based on their perspective. I can't understand how anything could be created out of nothing. Where did all this mass around us came from?? Where did life in something that was not alive came from?? When I look around me, I see things that are too perfect to have happened out of coincidence. You see this as an extremely unprobable event that took place regardless. I feel the probability was so low it was approaching zero so there has to be an outside interference. Like I said, its about perspective. I have no proof you say?? To me the fact that I exist is proof enough.
So what else do you have to base all your assumptions on? You're believing. You ignore everything your senses and brain tells you and believe that there has to be a creature out there who granted with everything you have.
Come on!! The probability of a planet like earth to EXIST is lower then probability of lightning falling on the same spot, what, like a hundred time!! The probability that the first living organism would evolve out of non-living thing is less then a sandstorm randomly forming Buckingham Palace in desert!! The probability that, that organism would survive and continue to evolve to its current situation is well… you get the idea. Yet you believe its possible!! How is me believing in the existence of God and afterlife any different??
Is it a crime if someone uses the tools you believe god gave to him to actually come to the conclusion that he doesn't exists? Though this person would still be glad to be alive and do the best out of it? What if this guy live the same life as you do?
Again I understand what you are saying. The word is ignorance (Don't mean to offend anyone, sorry in advance). To me only ignorance would result in not believing. IMO its just so visible…
Would you still say: ?
Yeah, again from MY perspective.
Let's put it like this: "God gave me all those tools and i used them as i could thus came to the conclusion that he doesn't exist". Who's to be blamed at the end if i don't believe he exists?
To me only a person who REALLY wants not to believe would come to the conclusion that He doesn't exist.
I'm also questioning the concept of a god who obviously don't want to be seen or be touched, who writes in his commandements that you should worship him and sends you to hell if you don't follow it. Such a flawed argumentation could have only been thought up by humans.
I don't want to sound all sissy here but He doesn't want to be seen or touched but felt!! I don't know why. Obviously seeing all these theists out there I know that reaching the conclusion that God exists is certainly possible. So, whoever doesn't reach it, has something amiss. That something is what God hates.
Religion is a weird topic. People who believe in it take it too seriously to discuss it, people who don't believe in it see themselves as too logically superior and refuse to have an open mind. The existence of God certainly has been left on us humans to decide. We come to our conclusions and stick with them because its very personal. Christianity, Jewism, Hinduism, Budhism, Islam, everyone of them. the hardcore believers will believe regardless of what logic dictates them. IMO this is hurting the cause of religion. People SHOULD discuss it, but for that to happen open mind is necessary.
Science in a quick world is how WE see the world. Its changes, it evolves, it progresses. To think its absolute is stupid. If there is an error its quite easy to fix, two words, new information. Religion is different. We have a book, if this book has error, there is no fix. God can't be wrong. Now, when I read Quran and I can't find any errors, is it illogical for me to reach the conclusion that IT MUST BE TRUE THEN?? If you read a letter, in it are 100 statements. You proved 99 of them to be true but can't decisively prove or disprove the last one. What would you think of it??
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If you don't believe in God and then ask me why is not believing in Him such a crime, what can I say?
I'm agnostic, essentially indifferent to the status of what is or isn't.
To me its a crime because I see Him as someone who has granted upon me countless gifts. Someone who cares for me more then anyone else. I see Him as someone who gave me life, thought, freedom to act, freedom to think, love, happiness, pleasure, satisfaction, intelligence, will, the power to decide whats wrong and right, friends, family, food, money… A never ending list. I see Him responsible for everything I have. In every action of every being I see His presence. So, I believe in Him. After everything He's done for me, if I deny even the fact that He exists, isn't that the worst possible thing I can do to Him?
This is a textbook example of extortion.
Thats why its hideous. Thats why I have to value His existence over mine. This is what it means to have ABSOLUTE TRUST on someone. Because I feel thats what He deserves.
No gift is worth devotion at gunpoint.
THAT is hideous.
And in what scriptures is God described as intervening at every chance and giving you all things good? What about the existence of humanity is so amazing a gift? Inherently?How would I know where Ghandhi or Socrates is?? Or where Oda will go for that matter? I don't even know where I am going, but sure hope its heaven.
Because Gandhi and Socrates are in hell, and Oda and virtually every Japanese person ever are bound for the same. All if you actually believe what you believe.
What is good or bad?? Why an American soldier who dies after killing dozens deserves a medal while a normal citizen who just accidentally killed his neighbor while practicing wrestling moves deserve life-sentence? The simple answer is because these are rules! If you follow the rules you are good, if you don't you are bad!! You follow the rules laid down by society, I follow those laid by Allah. Society says don't kill, so you don't kill. Allah says don't kill so I don't kill. Whats so wrong with that??
Because rules don't work like that. The very basis of civilization is rules are created by society, not dug out of their ancient eternal holes.
RULES HAVE REASONS. THEY MUST BE SUPPORTED BY REASON TO EXIST.
Unless, unless in the case of either tyrants or mass hysteria. And both these things are the greatest problems of humanity.
If the only reason you don't kill is because god says so then that's frightening.
Have you even thought about why? Don't you think god would have reasons as well? -
I do not wish to reincarnate as an Avatard.
Nuff said.
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i wnat a respond to my post from someone who believes in god and religion…
aren`t there any around???:getlost:
magneticmonkey i thought you would like to discuss..you always make that impression to me…so? -
I like Freud's theory that "God" was created because mankind had daddy-issues.
Also, I'm pretty much an atheist, but I do believe that if someone gets strength from their faith and doesn't preach about it or anything like that, it's okay.
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Come on!! The probability of a planet like earth to EXIST is lower then probability of lightning falling on the same spot, what, like a hundred time!!
You really think in an ENDLESS universe that there doesn't exist a planet like earth? That some real ignorant thinking there. Why do you keep referring to your "god" as "him" like it has a gender?
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Now now what proof do you have that the universe is endless?
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@Zyodius
Now now what proof do you have that the universe is endless?@Don:
i wnat a respond to my post from someone who believes in god and religion…
magneticmonkey i thought you would like to discuss..you always make that impression to me…so?
That won't work :) cause i don't believe in god.
But the only problem i have in your post is that you think that all those christians use the confession as a tool to stay the way they are not becoming better and laughing at their god cause at the end they will be without sin because they regularly talked to their favourite pastor.
That's definitely not how it works.
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That won't work :) cause i don't believe in god.
But the only problem i have in your post is that you think that all those christians use the confession as a tool to stay the way they are not becoming better and laughing at their god cause at the end they will be without sin because they regularly talked to their favourite pastor.
That's definitely not how it works.
not exactly, but you could do it like that and it would be the same..
does those who lived a better life get any "bonus" in paradise..
all get the same right..it just matters you come to paradisealso i don
t wanted to say that all christians would be like i said, they "could" act so and some do it..they aren
t to blame in my eyes..but as a human, who can freely think and stuff, it`s hard to believe that somebody believes that such an easy way could exist
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@Tupac's:
I'm agnostic, essentially indifferent to the status of what is or isn't.
Which is the same as saying you don't believe so my point holds.
@Tupac's:
This is a textbook example of extortion.
I am sorry if you feel that way. So, when your Mom says, "No breakfast until you brush your teeth!" Thats extortion too?
@Tupac's:
No gift is worth devotion at gunpoint.
THAT is hideous.You have freedom to choose.
@Tupac's:
And in what scriptures is God described as intervening at every chance and giving you all things good? What about the existence of humanity is so amazing a gift? Inherently?
I am not sure, but I think everyone. I am glad to be a human, so I think its a good thing. I don't know about anyone else though.
@Tupac's:
Because Gandhi and Socrates are in hell, and Oda and virtually every Japanese person ever are bound for the same. All if you actually believe what you believe.
Thats not for me to decide…
@Tupac's:
Because rules don't work like that. The very basis of civilization is rules are created by society, not dug out of their ancient eternal holes.
RULES HAVE REASONS. THEY MUST BE SUPPORTED BY REASON TO EXIST.
Reasons?? What good reason was there to slaughter hordes of Human Beings in Vietnam. I mean those responsible are certainly praised…
@Tupac's:
Unless, unless in the case of either tyrants or mass hysteria. And both these things are the greatest problems of humanity.
If the only reason you don't kill is because god says so then that's frightening.
Have you even thought about why? Don't you think god would have reasons as well?
Why don't you kill?? If a mosquito is sucking your blood and you squash it, thats taking a life and same as killing a Human. What makes one acceptable and the other not?? I mean seriously, think about it. When and where in history was it decided that violence is a bad thing. Don't kill the weak. Many other animals do it. Why are we so different? Who made that rule?? Why is that we Human's feel it is a BAD thing? For the record I am not saying its not a bad thing. So… why don't you kill??
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I am not trying to prove WHY I believe in Him, I am trying to prove WHY for someone who believes in Him, its such a crime not to believe in Him. For someone who doesn't even believe He exist its impossible to understand why He would deal out such judgement on the mere fact that you don't believe.
Wrong, I can conceive of love, I have parents as well.
And more then anything that is why I find your expectation of absolute thrall for that relationship to be terrible.
No parent worth a shit would expect this of a child, they would be failing as parents utterly.
What freedom is there really when you have the option of damnation or salvation for an action such as that.
This was my point.
I can understand that. People reach different conclusions based on their perspective. I can't understand how anything could be created out of nothing. Where did all this mass around us came from?? Where did life in something that was not alive came from??
Perhaps they were always there, matter I mean.
When I look around me, I see things that are too perfect to have happened out of coincidence. You see this as an extremely unprobable event that took place regardless. I feel the probability was so low it was approaching zero so there has to be an outside interference.
No there doesn't. And what odds are you even speaking of? Why are you concerning yourself with critiscizing unexplained phenomena with a contrived theory based on nothing?
And why would any of this mean any of the books lying around are validated in their description of God?
This in no way invites the idea of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism or what have you.
I have no proof you say?? To me the fact that I exist is proof enough.
Proof is a word with meaning, and it doesn't cover random theories and corelations made by any given person.
Come on!! The probability of a planet like earth to EXIST is lower then probability of lightning falling on the same spot,
Earth's life adapted to Earth.
It is a very narrow science that denies adaptation being possible on other sorts of worlds. The fact that we've already found, quickly at that, worlds in the same sort of orbit as earth in other solar systems crushes the idea that this is so impossible.The probability that the first living organism would evolve out of non-living thing is less then a sandstorm randomly forming Buckingham Palace in desert!!
How and where did you find the odds for something like this.
What an absurd statement.Yet you believe its possible!! How is me believing in the existence of God and afterlife any different??
Because that involves the supernatural.
To me only ignorance would result in not believing. IMO its just so visible…
So visible? What is? That something or another moved the universe toward our life?
Or all the billion details of say Islam that do not come from even your assumption.To me only a person who REALLY wants not to believe would come to the conclusion that He doesn't exist.
This is a dying event. While many atheists and agnostics are indeed simply rebels, more are increasingly simply raised neutral like me.
I had no prodding from my parents in any direction. I arrived where I did. With an occasional thought thrown toward a more deistic mindset.
Your acting as if there is some innate pressure that would require someone to be pried away from theism, when people are blank slates of spirituality at birth.
If you never plant the seeds, why would digging them up be so difficuilt.
I don't want to sound all sissy here but He doesn't want to be seen or touched but felt!! I don't know why. Obviously seeing all these theists out there I know that reaching the conclusion that God exists is certainly possible.
Appeal to Popularity fallacy.
You're a Muslim, you're view of God is a minority next to Christianity.
Yet far be it from you to assume that because there's so many more of them that they have greater possibility of being correct.
So, whoever doesn't reach it, has something amiss. That something is what God hates.
That something amiss would be being raised secular.
There are entire nations like this. Sweden, Czech Republic, Estonia.
People do not concern themselves as a society with so much weight in what is beyond, if anything.
Same goes for Buddhist nations, they do not concern themselves mostly with God, they focus on afterlife (re-life?) and living for it.Religion is a weird topic. People who believe in it take it too seriously to discuss it, people who don't believe in it see themselves as too logically superior that the refuse to have an open mind.
I'm not Herakles. I'm not concerned with lording over you like an insecure teenager, I'm interested soley in the discussion and details within it.
Religion is different. We have a book, if this book has error, there is no fix. God can't be wrong. Now, when I read Quran and I can't find any errors, is it illogical for me to reach the conclusion that IT MUST BE TRUE THEN?? If you read a letter, in it are 100 statements. You proved 99 of them to be true but can't decisively prove or disprove the last one. What would you think of it??
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/#external
And if you mean moral "absolutes", you can already see how very arguable those are.
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Now now what proof do you have that the universe is endless?
No proof, just an idea. If energy never ceases, never is truly destroyed but takes another form of some kind, this could be applied to thoughts on many matters including the idea of endless universes/dimensions.
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You really think in an ENDLESS universe that there doesn't exist a planet like earth? That some real ignorant thinking there. Why do you keep referring to your "god" as "him" like it has a gender?
I never said there is no other planet like earth… where did you get that??
When did I ever say He is my God?? He is just God...
I say Him because there isn't a better word for it... This is Him exclusive of gender. Its just being used as a pronoun here.
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Which is the same as saying you don't believe so my point holds.
Is it? You don't seem to get the difference there, between someone thinking about possibilities and someone taking a definite no stance.
What are your thoughts on those who think a god exists and that's their only involvement in behaving toward that belief?
I am sorry if you feel that way. So, when your Mom says, "No breakfast until you brush your teeth!" Thats extortion too?
Are you seriously comparing this to eternal damnation?
Not to mention the concept of adulthood. Of the whole point of parenting, to raise that child to live a good life.
Regardless of success, when that child is an adult they live free of the parent.
My mom does not dictate when or if I brush my teeth, or when or if I eat breakfast anymore. I don't even live with them anymore.
I'm 21, not 12.You have freedom to choose.
And that is why this is extortion. If this doesn't hold up in a court of law how do you expect me to hold it in my heart and mind as a working just order of things.
That is not freedom. It is a mockery of the concept.
Is a North Korean free because he or she can choose to serve the state or die in a concentration camp?
I am not sure, but I think everyone. I am glad to be a human, so I think its a good thing. I don't know about anyone else though.
I am too. But do you really think people born into poverty and war feel the same?
Thats not for me to decide…
Do you believe it is just.
Reasons?? What good reason was there to slaughter hordes of Human Beings in Vietnam. I mean those responsible are certainly praised…
Did I not mention mass hysteria clouding societies reason.
The Cold War terrified almost the whole world into seeing these things as important. Much of the US was frightened of communism and it's spread.
They were no listening to reason.Why don't you kill?? If a mosquito is sucking your blood and you squash it, thats taking a life and same as killing a Human.
Insects don't feel pain in the same way as a human being or other mammals. They are not even sentinent.
They are for all purposes biological robots. When I kill a big I feel nothing and would never think to compare it to humans.
The same does not hold toward animals like cats and dogs though. They do feel pain, and have their own small sense of mind.
It is those two missing elements that draw the line between cruelty and nothing.
What makes one acceptable and the other not?? I mean seriously, think about it. When and where in history was it decided that violence is a bad thing. Don't kill the weak. Many other animals do it. Why are we so different? Who made that rule?? Why is that we Human's feel it is a BAD thing? For the record I am not saying its not a bad thing. So… why don't you kill??
I would not want to be killed and hurt, why would I expect any different to be going though the head of someone else?
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I never said there is no other planet like earth… where did you get that??
When did I ever say He is my God?? He is just God...
I say Him because there isn't a better word for it... This is Him exclusive of gender. Its just being used as a pronoun here.
To be more clear, I should have said the probability of a planet like earth is not that small.
If you follow a religion then it's "your god" and not a universal concept.I think "It" would be a better word.
Zephos is doing a much better job at explaining this subject then I.
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Who is Zephos??
I have now too much things to read. Two replies from Tupac Ghost. A whole website from the link he sent me, so I will be taking a break.
EDIT: After reading through your reply again, I see that we differ in our opinion in almost everything. Since, I stated from the start, this is how I perceive it. I will just have to say that I will continue to perceive it in the same manner and of course you will too. Lets just agree to disagree.
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Like I said, its about perspective. I have no proof you say?? To me the fact that I exist is proof enough.
Prove to me definitively that you exist. Then we'll talk.
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There we go this topic becomes fucking adorable. I love these discussions. Never stop.
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sure it doesn`t..
zephos will suck this poor guy out:happy:kmohyudin, you should just leave it by that…believe me
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@Don:
sure it doesn`t..
zephos will suck this poor guy out:happy:kmohyudin, you should just leave it by that…believe me
who is Zephos??
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@Tupac's:
ahahahahahahahahaahaha, fucking wow.
No seriously, please justify the concept of sending non-believers to hell as something other then God being petty as fuck.
Because he's not just petty, he's the most damned perfectest being there is and we're all dirty, dirty mortals without him.
And they say atheism is full of nihilists.
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who is Zephos??
A legend in the forum universe. An old posters of the long forgotten days when newporkcity and apforums were one.
To be honest i'm genuinely more interested in this topic than the lulz that might result of it.
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Now now what proof do you have that the universe is endless?
Perhaps not endless. But if one considers Drake's Equation (which only covers our own galaxy) the chances of habitable environments on other worlds are still pretty good.
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Well i wasn't even addressing that point.
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Bah, sorry bout that. I didn't notice an extra page of comments. I deserve a slowpoke jpg.
Despite quoting you, my post wasn't a response to you. I was just using your comment to illustrating the point of even a finite view of the universe is enough.
My my, what an interesting week we're having here. A War Thread, the afterlife thread turning into a religious discussion. All we need is a scientific discussion thread and I'll be happy as a clam.
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Perhaps not endless. But if one considers Drake's Equation (which only covers our own galaxy) the chances of habitable environments on other worlds are still pretty good.
the universe isn
t endless cause it
s most likely expanding..so it "grows"..
having in grow means that there is a space where it could grow into.
thats shows us that the universe isnt endless or else it would be everything! but whats behind the universe will be forever a riddle..i for my taste like to see it at the "dark material" which is a form of energy we can
t understand..
maybe god`s big fat ass -
A legend in the forum universe. An old posters of the long forgotten days when newporkcity and apforums were one.
To be honest i'm genuinely more interested in this topic than the lulz that might result of it.
I see.
To be more clear, I should have said the probability of a planet like earth is not that small.
Now it isn't of course. I was referring to the chain of events that led to the creation of Universe, creation of Stars, planets. All that coupled with the fact that a planet like earth exist.
If you follow a religion then it's "your god" and not a universal concept.
Useless differences. Does it have to be one way or the other??
I think "It" would be a better word.
I feel Him is better, personal preference.
Zephos is doing a much better job at explaining this subject then I.
Prove to me definitively that you exist. Then we'll talk.
I am therefore I exist… or whatever that line is.
If I don't exist then you shouldn't have replied to me back there unless you are an idiot. If we all don't exist then there is no point in discussion whatsoever, so you shouldn't have replied to me back there unless you are an idiot. But, seeing that you had replied, by elimination and by assuming that you are in fact not an idiot, we are left with but one choice... that being I exist.
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Have you heard of solipsism?
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Kmohyudin: I think you were looking for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum
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Have you heard of solipsism?
I haven't so I looked it up and well if I am only a fragment of your mind and you are the only being that exists then… you could pretty much just use my last post here...
Kmohyudin: I think you were looking for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum
Thats the one!!
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I haven't so I looked it up and well if I am only a fragment of your mind and you are the only being that exists then… you could pretty much just use my last post here...
I am open to it as a possibility but act otherwise because it's more fun and less arrogant. The point is that you cannot prove your own existence to me.
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I am open to it as a possibility but act otherwise because it's more fun and less arrogant. The point is that you cannot prove your own existence to me.
Of course not, I agree completely. Thats why I was going for stupid, cliche arguments.
Proving anything definitely requires an agreed upon base to start from. Thats why logically proving something like existence of God, creation of Universe, and apparently existence of oneself is impossible because the basses in these cases are blurred or not completely agreed upon. When someone says I don't agree with the base, there is pretty much nothing you can do.
I am sorry if I came off as arrogant. I was going for funny/ smartass, but hey I am trying my best here!! Someday, someone will find one of my comments funny, bet your life on that!!
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Solipsism is the philosophical equivalent of farting.
Every time someone brings it up, everyone kind of crinkles their nose, things are slightly awkward, then everyone pretends to ignore what they just heard.
And it stinks.
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But as an extreme of existentialism it proves a point quite well, if that point is that nothing can be proven.
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But as an extreme of existentialism it proves a point quite well, if that point is that nothing can be proven.
That's not a point. It's nihilistic conjecture that serves no purpose aside from intellectual masturbation.
It's an absolute waste of time.
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Solipsism completely destroys the purpose of philosophy, to seriously debate in it's favour is pointlessness in essence. In many ways it's like debating God, it cannot be proven or unproven and thus sits around like a squatter that won't leave.
Stick to more meaningful ontological arguments like sensory realism or some equivalent.
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Quit funny, how many people of this world still believe in any kind of god.
The most hilarious thing is that with a little bit of thinking and historical knowledge you can come to one simple conclusion:religion only exists, cause the humans from 2000 years ago weren't able to explain nature phenomenons and disasters.
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Any theory corresponding to the reality of existence (concerning both how we come and go) holds about the same relative validity and anything in the area can be described as intellectual masturbation (I use that phrase, too), at least until someone manages to find proof. I understand what you mean, though, as to accept solipsism is to deny the validity of proof.
For the sake of this conversation, I used it as an example to invalidate proof in an attempt to clear the conversation of assumptions.
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religion only exists, cause the humans from 2000 years ago weren't able to explain nature phenomenons and disasters.
So true, the scientific belief on what happen to Sodom and Gomorrah.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article3649054.ece