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Ivotas

Originally posted by Paulie@Jul 19 2005, 09:22 PM
And Robin didn't grow much until she flat-out joined the crew.
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That statement is so silly that I wonÂ´t even try to convince you of the opposite. If you really think that then it proves only for how much worth I can take your whole pro-Paulie arguments. B)

There might not be enough room to have Franky AND Paulie experience the same growth, at least not without extending this arc even further; and let's face it, people are getting impatient as it is. So Oda chooses to showcase Franky's character growth, as this'll be his only chance to do so, seeing as how Franky won't be joining and Paulie will.
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You mean like Dalton joined with the Strawhats after Drum arc just for being on the way to Drum castle ready to kick some serious ass, while Chopper grew more and more as a character. ;)

Solid

Originally posted by Ivotas+Jul 19 2005, 03:18 PM–>QUOTE(Ivotas @ Jul 19 2005, 03:18 PM)

Battle Franky

Pauly doing a ramen suit equivalent with his ropes? Heh, well if he pulls that off, I'll eat my hat with BBQ sauce, Solid. ;) The fact is that Pauly's a long range type guy, that's where he's strongest. I'd think he'd naturally be at a disadvantage over short distances and in defense, since I'm rather stumped at thinking of any really effective defensive maneuvers you could pull off with ropes, against some beast of an opponent. :huh:

Paulie

Originally posted by Ivotas+Jul 19 2005, 04:28 PM–>QUOTE(Ivotas @ Jul 19 2005, 04:28 PM)

Solid

Originally posted by Battle Franky@Jul 19 2005, 03:34 PM
Pauly doing a ramen suit equivalent with his ropes? Heh, well if he pulls that off, I'll eat my hat with BBQ sauce, Solid. ;) The fact is that Pauly's a long range type guy, that's where he's strongest. I'd think he'd naturally be at a disadvantage over short distances and in defense, since I'm rather stumped at thinking of any really effective defensive maneuvers you could pull off with ropes, against some beast of an opponent. :huh:
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Well, I didnt mean that he would have some kind of Rope suit, :lol: just that he would like take 5 ropes in front of and then he could capture all the attacks that doesnt damage the rope…

wolfwood

i dont think its possibel to counter the Robin argument cause she falls out of this formula for joining that Ivotas so firmly belives in :lol:

but please try cause its just plain rude to say that his argument(which is a good one) is not worthy of answering

and solid I say that Paulie is a long range fighter like usopp and lacks a lot of power in close quarters combat.

Paulie

Originally posted by Solid+Jul 19 2005, 04:38 PM–>QUOTE(Solid @ Jul 19 2005, 04:38 PM)

Solid

Originally posted by wolfwood@Jul 19 2005, 03:39 PM
and solid I say that Paulie is a long range fighter like usopp and lacks a lot of power in close quarters combat.
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Yes he is, I never said that he is a melee fighter.. And we dont know if he lacks power in close combat, becasue we have almost never seen him in close combat.

Paulie: No.. o.o.. Im not talking about an range atttack, but a melee block. Picture Paulie holdning like 2-3 ropes in his hands horizontal with 1 meter between his hands, wit those ropes he can catch punches or kicks that is coming at his upper body, he just let the punch/Kick slip between the ropes and at the same time he leans back with his upper body and makes a knot. I hope you got my point.. ^^

wolfwood

ah great Idea Solid i can totaly see that happening :D

and im assuming that he lacks power in close combat cause he has a wepon that seems to require some space to use properly

Solid

Originally posted by wolfwood@Jul 19 2005, 03:51 PM
**ah great Idea Solid i can totaly see that happening :D

and im assuming that he lacks power in close combat cause he has a wepon that seems to require some space to use properly
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Ya, thats true, he is definitly a range fighter, but that doesnt mean that he lacks in close combat.. Though I think he does, but we havnt seen any proof of it. For example, Zoro is a melee fighter bu with his air cutting techniques, he is definitly not lacking on range attacks.. Same goes for Luffy.

Ivotas

_Originally posted by Solid+Jul 19 2005, 09:29 PM–>QUOTE(Solid @ Jul 19 2005, 09:29 PM)EDIT AGAIN: Ivotas, why do you compare Dalton with Paulie?! Daltn didnt even have attack names, and no character gimmicks neither..
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Because heÂ´s exactly to Chopper what Paulie is to Franky. Chopper didnÂ´t grow that much as Franky because Drum arc was much shorter then this current Water 7 arc.
Plus Dalton had charcter gimmicks. He always extended his statements with additional needles info like in chapter 133:

Dalton: There's no denying that she has skill. But she is a rather… strange old woman... She's almost 140 years old.

Sanji: A... 140?!! And she's alive?!

Dalton: Well... yes... she does like those dried plums.

Or another example from chapter 135: "It's a lakeshore town further north of here. And also... skating is popular there".

They were his gimmicks. Little ones yes, but gimmicks none the less. :P

Originally posted by Paulie@Jul 19 2005, 09:34 PM
Go ahead and explain it. Every time I counter a pro-Franky argument I back it up with points and examples. This is just a nicer way of saying, "You're dumb and my argument is lost on you." I guarantee you, I look over all the arguments and I do understand them. I'm not stupid, nor is my stance unchangable if a good enough argument is brought up for Franky.
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You really think I will waste anymore time on you while you make such a premature statement? How do you expect me to take you anymore serious when you use words like that?

@Jul 19 2005, 09:39 PM
**i dont think its possibel to counter the Robin argument cause she falls out of this formula for joining that Ivotas so firmly belives in :lol:

but please try cause its just plain rude to say that his argument(which is a good one) is not worthy of answering

and solid I say that Paulie is a long range fighter like usopp and lacks a lot of power in close quarters combat.
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_Ok Wolfwood since you ask nicely I rethink me stance. And you know how much I like to disagree with you. ;)

And I seriously hope that people will read the entire large post until the end to understand what IÂ´m trying to say instead of replying after the first paragraph.

Well IÂ´ll start right with responding to what you just said, the formula of joining. I think IÂ´ve eleborated this forumula enough on all the other characterÂ´s so I donÂ´t need to repeat it in this thread. Just check the old Franky vs Paulie thread if anybody is really interested in hearing it.

IÂ´ll speak about Robins joining now. First of all, Robin is the mysterious member in the Strawhat crew. ThereÂ´s no doubt about it she just is it. And while we slowly learn more about her ideals, dreams and motives we realize that sheÂ´s even more mysterious then we just suspected in the first place. So my whole point is based on Robin being the mysterious one. Everyone understand? Ok so lets start.

First I have to explain how Vivi fits in. Unlike the other Strawhats, Luffy didnÂ´t come to the place where she was the "local (anti-) hero" but he delivered her there. For instance at the marine base he met Zoro and took him with him, he met Nami in a little town and took her with him, he met Usopp at Syrop and took him with him, he met Sanji at Baratie and took him with him he followed Nami to Cocoyashi and took her with him again and he met Chopper at Drum and took him with him. They were all the heroes of the places where Luffy met them for the first time. Actually they were more the anti-heroes because none of them was popular by the majority (just like Franky isnÂ´t popular by the majority for the people Water 7).

But anyways Luffy didnÂ´t meet Vivi where she was the local hero. He delivered her there, to Alabasta. She was just traveling with them until she got back home. That was something that so far didnÂ´t apply for any Strawhat and therefore I never actually took it as if Vivi will join with the Strawhats, especially since she dreams of being a good ruler to her people which canÂ´t be achieved by joining a pirate crew.

Well anyways that much for Vivi and joining. However who should join then? Well for the first time I thought that we will have an arc where nobody will join. There wasnÂ´t anybody besides Vivi that got as much developed to qualify right? Well only halfwise.

LetÂ´s see how Robin was developed so far. We met her at Whiskey Peak. She was immediately introduced as Mr. 0Â´s partner! ThatÂ´s right a ShichibukaiÂ´s partner. So this girl must already be something special. But then in the end, she actually wants to help the Strawhats instead of wiping them which would actually be the first thing to assume…mysterious.

While the Strawhats and Smoker are held prisoners, Smoker gives the Strawhats a brief info about Robin and thatÂ´s that she sunk marine ships while she was 8 years old and that she is as dangerous as Crocodile. But more about her is not revealed yet…mysterious

Then at Rainbase, she saves a defeated Luffy and askÂ´s him a strange question about the people who carry the name of D. Furthermore she lets even Peruh live and suggests him to rather take care of Luffy instead of fighting her…mysterious

Then after Crocodile achieves his wish to find the Porneglyph, she proves to be completely useless to him and he finishes her off pretty easily. What the fuck? She got carefully introduced since Whiskey Peak, her true motives remain mysterius just to be killed off easily like that? I mean even Mr. 9 was more interesting in the end. IÂ´m sorry if I hurt anyoneÂ´s feelings, but everyone who thought that we wouldnÂ´t see Robin after Crocodile finished her of is a complete moron!

IÂ´m not saying that this all was obvious for her joining. Hell no! I was also clueless until I saw her asking Luffy to join his crew. But now with some more arcs passed where we see that Robin is the mysterious one it makes sense (to me at least) that her introduction had to follow a different formula then for the rest of the Strawhats. After all a mysterious character deserves a mysterious joining formula. And thatÂ´s why I think that this Vivi/Robin thing canÂ´t be compared to Paulie/Franky unless of course Paulie turns out to be another mysterious character like Robin.

And as far as the Robin didnÂ´t grow much argument is concerned. What much growth does everybody expect from a mysterious, quite and calm character whoÂ´s flashback we havenÂ´t even seen so far. He already showed compassion when it gets to history. Just look at how mad for her character she got when Yama wrecked the Upper YardÂ´s ruins. Other then that she laughs with the crew and mostly enjoyed her stay there. What do the other characters do more in growth actually? Luffy eats and does stupid stuff. Zoro works out and sleeps etc. Robin reads books. ItÂ´s not like the other guys do much more. They grew just more because they were featured in more arcs.
Robin was just in Jaya/Skypiea and Longring Longland as a Strawhat member. I think she did have some character growth for someone who is still mysterious. And please donÂ´t tell me that I`m over interpreting things with this whole mystery stuff. This whole Water 7 arc is the inevitable proof that Robin is a mysterious character. :P_

Paulie

I read and can appreciate your argument, Ivotas. However, I think there are some facts you're overlooking. While your argument carries some weight, I believe these do as well.

First off, for the last crew member that joined, your formula was off. While you use Robin's mysteriousness as the reason, it's also possible that Oda's simply changing his formula for the later characters introduced. Also note, while I bring this up, I prefer the second explanation over this one.

My preferred reasoning is this; Franky, if he doesn't join, is going to build the Straw Hats' new ship. The Going Merry's been through a lot and fans'll be disappointed by a new ship they don't care about, no matter how awesome the ship is. Therefore, Oda's building up Franky's character. When the Straw Hats leave on their new ship, leaving Franky behind, this ship isn't just some replacement. When fans see the new ship, they know it's made by Franky, that lovable cola-powered cyborg. They already feel attachment to it simply because it's made by a character they love so much.

And so Oda develops Franky's character more than Sanji, so that he can accomplish this.

wolfwood

haha yeah im already well aware of your stance on the Formula :lol:

and this smart comeback seems to the start of another long and fun argument,

but im staying outta this one but just for the sake of disagreeing with ya Ivotas i will say that im on Paulies side of this argument big suprise huh :P

Ivotas

_Originally posted by Paulie+Jul 19 2005, 10:44 PM–>QUOTE(Paulie @ Jul 19 2005, 10:44 PM)First off, for the last crew member that joined, your formula was off. While you use Robin's mysteriousness as the reason, it's also possible that Oda's simply changing his formula for the later characters introduced. Also note, while I bring this up, I prefer the second explanation over this one.

Well if that really is going to be the case then I canÂ´t argue with that. From the way how I interpret it, it was just a one-time thing happening because of RobinÂ´s uniqueness.
However if Oda should start to change his style then you make a fair point. But I still intepret it as a exception because everything with Franky follows the regular formula.

My preferred reasoning is this; Franky, if he doesn't join, is going to build the Straw Hats' new ship. The Going Merry's been through a lot and fans'll be disappointed by a new ship they don't care about, no matter how awesome the ship is. Therefore, Oda's building up Franky's character. When the Straw Hats leave on their new ship, leaving Franky behind, this ship isn't just some replacement. When fans see the new ship, they know it's made by Franky, that lovable cola-powered cyborg. They already feel attachment to it simply because it's made by a character they love so much.

I see your point. However I seem to see this whole "Dream Ship" thing a little bit different then everyone else.
I see it like this, that FrankyÂ´s dream ship isnÂ´t completed just when he finished building it in Water 7 for two reasons:

1. In order that his dream ship is completed, it has to sail around the entire world. And the Grand Line is a very dangerous place (Merry has experienced that already) so if he wants that his creation completeÂ´s this dream he himself has to keep it in tact. If Paulie joins the crew and keeps FrankyÂ´s creation in tact, then it could be interpreted that FrankyÂ´s work wasnÂ´t good enough without PaulieÂ´s fixing skills. So Franky himself must make sure that his creation completes itÂ´s task.

2. A little more vague, however, when is the dream ship finished? Or lets say, when does a cyborg who updated his own body consider a ship finished? You see, no matter what material there is in Water 7, there might still be more material on the Grand LineÂ´s islands that can be used for the new ships upgrades. A silly example. Water 7 is the worlds best place to build ships but do they have dials there? Nope. They can only be found in Skypiea. So if you want to include dials on this special dream ship, then you have to go to Skypiea first.
Ok, the Strawhats were already there and can give Franky dials to use on the ship. But who knows what great materials and gadgets can be found on the other different Grand Line Islands nobody has seen so far? This is after all Oda weÂ´re speaking about here so there might be lots of stuff coming at us.
So the point is actually, that the dream ship itself developes on the travel around the Grand Line by being upgraded from time to time. This means that it is not completed at a Water 7 dock and in order to complete it Franky must travel with the ship then.

IÂ´m not saying that itÂ´s going to be like that. But it is a different and IMO plausible interpretation of what makes FrankyÂ´s Dream Ship.

@Jul 19 2005, 10:54 PM
but im staying outta this one but just for the sake of disagreeing with ya Ivotas i will say that im on Paulies side of this argument big suprise huh :P
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I never would have guessed that. ;) Well anyways, I actually donÂ´t have any problems if somebody prefers Paulie over Franky. To each his own I say. ItÂ´s just that there really arenÂ´t any hints by Oda that Paulie will join.

wolfwood

damn i thought i could sit this one out :lol:

but ill just say that i See Franky as Toms succesor and as such he will make the best ship he ever could have and then leave its destiny in the hands of the Strawhats like tom did with Rogers.

this is the way i think it will happen Franky doing the same thing tom did lending his power to the Future pirate king :)

Ivotas

Originally posted by wolfwood@Jul 19 2005, 11:11 PM
but ill just say that i See Franky as Toms succesor and as such he will make the best ship he ever could have and then leave its destiny in the hands of the Strawhats like tom did with Rogers.
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Well that defies my first point. However it doesnÂ´t apply on my second one. :P

wolfwood

ah your right but in response to your second argument i really think that they wont modify the ship after its completed by franky at W7.

and then they will only need a carpenter to repair it.

Paulie

I don't think there's much more to be said for either of our arguments any more. Either could be right at this point, so now all we can do is wait and see, I think.

Ivotas

Before I continue I have to get this off my soul: HOW THE HELL DID I ONCE AGAIN MADE IT AMONG THE TOP POSTERS IN THIS DISCUSSION?!?!?

I mean I really wanted to sit this thing out since I thought that IÂ´ve said everything in the first thread and now it appears that IÂ´ve already replied 15 times here. How? When? :blink: :lol:

Originally posted by wolfwood@Jul 19 2005, 11:20 PM
ah your right but in response to your second argument i really think that they wont modify the ship after its completed by franky.
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Well I guess itÂ´s all a matter of different interpretation right now. The way I see Franky IÂ´m sure heÂ´s the kind of guy to improve what he does best just as any Strawhat works on improving what they do best.

That said, it wouldnÂ´t even surprise me if Franky would upgrade himself with one of Usopps dials. They seem to get along well and I actually think Franky will play a key role into Usopp coming back to the Strawhats.

wolfwood

dont ask me i was also planning to sit it out but look at me :lol:

Solid

Originally posted by Ivotas@Jul 19 2005, 05:29 PM
That said, it wouldnÂ´t even surprise me if Franky would upgrade himself with one of Usopps dials. They seem to get along well and I actually think Franky will play a key role into Usopp coming back to the Strawhats.
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Then their fightning style would even become more identical.. Boring.

Everyone has uniqe fightning styles in the Sh clan, I would like to keep it that way, but If Franky joins then we just have another fist user with alot of random attacks that reminds too much of Usopp.

Ivotas

Enough with this fighting style indentical quasi argument crap!

Using dials isnÂ´t UsoppÂ´s fighting style so far. He used it just once in a fight on Luffy. ThatÂ´s it. Are you telling me that using kitchen knifeÂ´s is part of SanjiÂ´s fighting style just because he used it once against Wanze?

And you are completely ignorant in your stance. If you say that FrankyÂ´s style is identical then at least be mature enough to admit that PaulieÂ´s long range grabing stuff style is something that Luffy can pull with his DF powers himself.

IÂ´m not mad but you often twist anti-Franky arguments that way how you like em for yourself and leave the part out where they actually apply on Paulie too.

eddym345

Originally posted by Solid+Jul 20 2005, 06:52 AM–>QUOTE(Solid @ Jul 20 2005, 06:52 AM)

Ivotas

Originally posted by eddym345@Jul 20 2005, 12:59 PM
I think it would be better if paulie joins he would be Sanjis nemesis. :lol:
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Sanji already has his nemesis with Zoro and I think that is enough for the entire series. We donÂ´t need even more characterÂ´s in the crew just for fighting purposes.

Solid

Originally posted by Ivotas@Jul 20 2005, 06:59 AM
**Enough with this fighting style indentical quasi argument crap!

Using dials isnÂ´t UsoppÂ´s fighting style so far. He used it just once in a fight on Luffy. ThatÂ´s it. Are you telling me that using kitchen knifeÂ´s is part of SanjiÂ´s fighting style just because he used it once against Wanze?

And you are completely ignorant in your stance. If you say that FrankyÂ´s style is identical then at least be mature enough to admit that PaulieÂ´s long range grabing stuff style is something that Luffy can pull with his DF powers himself.

IÂ´m not mad but you often twist anti-Franky arguments that way how you like em for yourself and leave the part out where they actually apply on Paulie too.
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It is, because the dials belongs to him and it fitts perfectly with his fightning style, Usopps fightnings style is sniping and to use alot of random items to fight with. Sanjis fightning style is kicking, the knife thing was probably one time thing, while Usopps dials isnt, he didnt lost them or something, plus he already used one time before the Luffy fight and we still havnt seen his hammer wich he said he would upgrade.

I have already admittted that the attack Luffy did against Richi did look little similar to paulies Death Lift, but, that was only one attack and Luffys attack was aimed against the head while Paulies was aimed against the arm. And thats the only attack Luffy hasfrom what we've seen that looks similar to Pauley.

They do not apply to Paulie as much as they do to Franky, from what we've seen Franky uses his fists in both melee and range battles, like Luffy and he shoots and uses alot of random and different things like Fire, Spikes like Usopp. And, as other people has mentioned Frankys attack names is also just random and normal.. While all the strawhats have special attack names.

Luffy: Gomu Gomu
Zoro: Mythical creatures and animals
Nami: Tempo
Usopp: Star and Usopp
Sanji: Meat parts in frensh
Chopper: Point and Cherryblossoms
Robin: Spanish names.
Pauley: Rope action and Knots
Franky: um… Nothing.

Sanji fights with Luffy too, so why not with pauley, its like they will be rivals or something.

Ivotas

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 01:39 PM
It is, because the dials belongs to him and it fitts perfectly with his fightning style, Usopps fightnings style is sniping and to use alot of random items to fight with. Sanjis fightning style is kicking, the knife thing was probably one time thing, while Usopps dials isnt, he didnt lost them or something, plus he already used one time before the Luffy fight and we still havnt seen his hammer wich he said he would upgrade.

One thing about the "the dials belong to Usopp" argument. He already updated NamiÂ´s Clima Tact with them so there goes the exclusiveness.

**I have already admittted that the attack Luffy did against Richi did look little similar to paulies Death Lift, but, that was only one attack and Luffys attack was aimed against the head while Paulies was aimed against the arm. And thats the only attack Luffy hasfrom what we've seen that looks similar to Pauley.

They do not apply to Paulie as much as they do to Franky, from what we've seen Franky uses his fists in both melee and range battles, like Luffy and he shoots and uses alot of random and different things like Fire, Spikes like Usopp. And, as other people has mentioned Frankys attack names is also just random and normal.. While all the strawhats have special attack names.**

IÂ´m sorry but you donÂ´t get the point. So far Paulie canÂ´t do anything that Luffy canÂ´t do himself. No matter how you name the attacks they basically are just techniques where a rope is used to grab something on long range. So far we didnÂ´t see him do more then that and Luffy could easily pull the same trick with his hands.
Franky is different there. I admit that the fire breath appears similar to a dial, or that the nail his flying fist resembles LuffyÂ´s Gomu Gomu no Pistol. However thereÂ´s a huge variaty in his style that Paulie is lacking so far. So far IÂ´ve not seen a character that can literally take his own skin of his fist only to show us an iron fist beyond that. Not to mention that nobody can use that freaky centaur mode.

And as far as the resembling techniques is concerned. Choppers Guard Point could be considered as copie to LuffyÂ´s Gomu Gomu no Fuseen. His Arm Point is actually just a super strong upgrade to be used in a punch so basically a copy of the very first direct hit that Water Luffy gave Crocodile. But still Chopper is different then Luffy and same counts for Franky heÂ´s freaking cyborg man!

And besides, Oda is a creative person but he also has to use the human anatomy in order to create attacks. So unless Oda doesnÂ´t create a character with other extremeties besides head, arms and legs at some point characterÂ´s without a weapon will tend to have attacks that resemble each other. But that doesnÂ´t mean that they are the same.
For instance a Boxer and a Kickboxer both use fists to punch (what else) however itÂ´s not the same fighting style.

Sanji fights with Luffy too, so why not with pauley, its like they will be rivals or something.
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The whole crew has minor funny fights but only Sanji and Zoro have somewhat more of a major fight that is different to the rest. And Paulie would definitely break the balance here.

Phlemingo

I thought Sanji x Zoro rivalry to be the funniest kind of fight, imo. Haha.

Ivotas

Originally posted by Phlemingo@Jul 20 2005, 02:22 PM
I thought Sanji x Zoro rivalry to be the funniest kind of fight, imo. Haha.
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It is, but if you add a third person you break the balance and ruin the gag. ;)

Phlemingo

Yeah, I didn't say anything against your Paulie point. :)

<3 Franky though.

Originally posted by Solid+Jul 20 2005, 04:39 AM–>QUOTE(Solid @ Jul 20 2005, 04:39 AM)

Solid

? He just gave nami some dials and upgraded her weapon, that doesnt meean that dials that Usopp uses doesnt belong to him.

"IÂ´m sorry but you donÂ´t get the point. So far Paulie canÂ´t do anything that Luffy canÂ´t do himself. No matter how you name the attacks they basically are just techniques where a rope is used to grab something on long range. So far we didnÂ´t see him do more then that and Luffy could easily pull the same trick with his hands.
Franky is different there. I admit that the fire breath appears similar to a dial, or that the nail his flying fist resembles LuffyÂ´s Gomu Gomu no Pistol. However thereÂ´s a huge variaty in his style that Paulie is lacking so far. So far IÂ´ve not seen a character that can literally take his own skin of his fist only to show us an iron fist beyond that. Not to mention that nobody can use that freaky centaur mode."

Luffy cant do Pipe hitch Knives neither can he do the atttack paulie did against Franky family, and he cant do the rescue things that Pauley did on the colapsing bridge..

"And as far as the resembling techniques is concerned. Choppers Guard Point could be considered as copie to LuffyÂ´s Gomu Gomu no Fuseen. His Arm Point is actually just a super strong upgrade to be used in a punch so basically a copy of the very first direct hit that Water Luffy gave Crocodile. But still Chopper is different then Luffy and same counts for Franky heÂ´s freaking cyborg man!"

Gomu Gomu Baloon and Guard point isnt the same, Luffy doesnt do Gomu Gomu baloon doesnt protect Luffy or giving extra armor, it is ust for bouncin back attacks that is coming against, like a cannon ball. While Defense point give Chopper armor, so he can resist lesser powerfull moves.
And Chopper only got one attack where he punches and Chopper doesnt puncsh so much, he often defeats his enemies using their own attacks against him, while Franky and Luffy defeates their enemies with a big fat punch.

"And besides, Oda is a creative person but he also has to use the human anatomy in order to create attacks. So unless Oda doesnÂ´t create a character with other extremeties besides head, arms and legs at some point characterÂ´s without a weapon will tend to have attacks that resemble each other. But that doesnÂ´t mean that they are the same.
For instance a Boxer and a Kickboxer both use fists to punch (what else) however itÂ´s not the same fighting style."

Not sure how to rspond this..

All I can say is that the strawhatts has much more differences in their fightning style than a boxer and a kick boxer, if Franky joins he will break this becasue his fightning style reminds too much of Luffy and Usopp. Its not the same, but their fightning style reminds to eachother.

"The whole crew has minor funny fights but only Sanji and Zoro have somewhat more of a major fight that is different to the rest. And Paulie would definitely break the balance here."

I forgot to write not in my sentence.. I mean, only becasue Sanji and Paulie has different opinions against Namis doesnt make them Rivals, Sanjis fightning relationship with pauley will be like Luffys and Sanjis, they will only fight about namis clothes, nothing else, Zoro and Sanji fights almost about everything and thats why they're rivals. Of course this is only IMO.

Phlemingo

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 09:53 PM
**? He just gave nami some dials and upgraded her weapon, that doesnt meean that dials that Usopp uses doesnt belong to him. With this, I agree.

Luffy cant do Pipe hitch Knives neither can he do the atttack paulie did against Franky family, and he cant do the rescue things that Pauley did on the colapsing bridge.. He can if he has knives, or is in position. Respectively.

Gomu Gomu Baloon and Guard point isnt the same, Luffy doesnt do Gomu Gomu baloon doesnt protect Luffy or giving extra armor, it is ust for bouncin back attacks that is coming against, like a cannon ball. While Defense point give Chopper armor, so he can resist lesser powerfull moves.
And Chopper only got one attack where he punches and Chopper doesnt puncsh so much, he often defeats his enemies using their own attacks against him, while Franky and Luffy defeates their enemies with a big fat punch. Chopper's usual solo finales is by Kokutei Roseo or the like. I think he has 2 punch attacks, the other which name escapes me now. True about the defenses techniques though.

Not sure how to rspond this..

All I can say is that the strawhatts has much more differences in their fightning style than a boxer and a kick boxer, if Franky joins he will break this becasue his fightning style reminds too much of Luffy and Usopp. Its not the same, but their fightning style reminds to eachother. No, I don't agree. Centaur mode.. who else has anything half similar to that? I know Luffy can immobilize his opponents by wrapping himself around them but uh.. he can't change his "modes". Usopp is a sharpshooter primarily. Even his spikes (cactus star thing) and fire (flame star(?)) takes advantage of his sniping skillz. Franky is different in the case that he is a heavy hitter, has crazy defenses, and is undoubtedly slower than the average super-fighter.

I forgot to write not in my sentence.. I mean, only becasue Sanji and Paulie has different opinions against Namis doesnt make them Rivals, Sanjis fightning relationship with pauley will be like Luffys and Sanjis, they will only fight about namis clothes, nothing else, Zoro and Sanji fights almost about everything and thats why they're rivals. Of course this is only IMO. Paulie would just ruin the humour the relationship brings by throwing his random comment about scantily clad-ness.
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wolfwood

Christ not this argument again <_<

how many times have we gone thru this i mean its obvious that franky is a superpowered usoppp but that dont really change his chances for joining.

and Luffy may be able to do all that Paulie can in a diffrent way but still ill have to say that id like to see Luffy tie a bowline knot with his hand :lol: but the same goes for him it doesnt change his chances for joining.

Ivotas

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 02:53 PM
? He just gave nami some dials and upgraded her weapon, that doesnt meean that dials that Usopp uses doesnt belong to him.

Solid, you seriously need to at least try to understand an argument before you try to counter it. I never said that the Dials donÂ´t belong to Usopp, I said that Nami has some in her weapon too and this means that the usage of dials isnÂ´t exlusively his. For christs sake just for once try to read what IÂ´ve said.

Luffy cant do Pipe hitch Knives neither can he do the atttack paulie did against Franky family, and he cant do the rescue things that Pauley did on the colapsing bridge..

Lol, silliest argument ever. So youÂ´re saying that Luffy couldnÂ´t grab one of his nakama when they would be in danger to get thrown somewhere? Come to think of it youÂ´re right. When Luffy climbed the Drum Rockies is was definitely PaulieÂ´s rope tricks who saved the falling Sanji. :lol:

All I can say is that the strawhatts has much more differences in their fightning style than a boxer and a kick boxer, if Franky joins he will break this becasue his fightning style reminds too much of Luffy and Usopp. Its not the same, but their fightning style reminds to eachother.Â

Finally weÂ´re making progress here. The fighting style isnÂ´t the same but they remind each other. With that I agree. ThatÂ´s the same thing with Paulie I admit. He doesnÂ´t have the same thing but it has similarities to what Luffy can do.

And just as I said. ChopperÂ´s and Luffy styles arenÂ´t the same either but they have similar characteristics. And personally I find it actually very creative how different the three same things are actually. Luffy (Gomu Gomu no Pistol), Chopper (a hit with Arm Point) and Franky (Strong Hammer) all basically hit their opponent with a punch. But because they are different beings it is a creative difference for the same process.

PLUS, Franky can still pull his centaur mode. No matter whether you like it or not itÂ´s by far unique and canÂ´t be copied by anyone else.

I forgot to write not in my sentence.. I mean, only becasue Sanji and Paulie has different opinions against Namis doesnt make them Rivals, Sanjis fightning relationship with pauley will be like Luffys and Sanjis, they will only fight about namis clothes, nothing else, Zoro and Sanji fights almost about everything and thats why they're rivals. Of course this is only IMO.
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Ok I donÂ´t disagree here. Your point doesnÂ´t seem lesser valid then mine. ItÂ´s just my own interpretation that Paulie COULD break the balance. DoesnÂ´t have to be that way though.

Solid

"Solid, you seriously need to at least try to understand an argument before you try to counter it. I never said that the Dials donÂ´t belong to Usopp, I said that Nami has some in her weapon too and this means that the usage of dials isnÂ´t exlusively his. For christs sake just for once try to read what IÂ´ve said."

Ok, sorry I dont what exclusblabla means… :P

"Lol, silliest argument ever. So youÂ´re saying that Luffy couldnÂ´t grab one of his nakama when they would be in danger to get thrown somewhere? Come to think of it youÂ´re right. When Luffy climbed the Drum Rockies is was definitely PaulieÂ´s rope tricks who saved the falling Sanji. :lol:
ress here. The fighting style isnÂ´t the same but they remind each other. With that I agree. ThatÂ´s the same thing with Paulie I admit. He doesnÂ´t have the same thing but it has similarities to what Luffy can do."

...
I said 4 people, he cant save 4 people in one move unless the people he is svaing stands next to eachother.

"PLUS, Franky can still pull his centaur mode. No matter whether you like it or not itÂ´s by far unique and canÂ´t be copied by anyone else."
yah, thats the only really uniqe attack for him IMO..

Phlemingo: Luffy cant do Pipe Hitch Knives, becasue he cant put a knife just in the middle of his arm and Chopper has only one time defeated an enemy with a punch and that was against Chess and Blackball.. And he only got 2 attacks what I know, one when he hits when he is in Strong point and one when he is in Horn Point..

Ivotas

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 04:46 PM
Ok, sorry I dont what exclusblabla means… :P

:blink: Erm, really? I thought the term exclusive is an internationalism. You sure you donÂ´t got that in swedish?

I said 4 people, he cant save 4 people in one move unless the people he is svaing stands next to eachother.

True Luffy couldnÂ´t grab all of them with his two hands. But couldnÂ´t he just squeeze around 4 people with just one arm like a snake? IsnÂ´t that actually the same thing that a rope does (since a rope doesnÂ´t have hands)?

"PLUS, Franky can still pull his centaur mode. No matter whether you like it or not itÂ´s by far unique and canÂ´t be copied by anyone else."
yah, thats the only really uniqe attack for him IMO..
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One more then Paulie though. ;) Besides Paulie always uses just ropes (no matter if one or more) Franky uses, weapons out of his mouth, fingers, palms, fists and legs. Additional to that he can grow mutlitple defensive points such as using his arms as a shield or simply laying on his back. I mean how fucking awesome and creative is an invinsible battle mode where just lay on your back while wearing a hawaii shirt? :lol:

wolfwood

yes we do have exclusive in swedish.

paulie also has one that luffy cant do remember the pipe hitch manouver,

and he really couldnt save as many people as Paulie could with mulitple ropes.

and finaly i get really annoyed at how Franky just simply can pull out any weapon from his ass and say ahaha this is my secret attack that i installed before this battle <_<

but maybe thats just me :lol:

Ivotas

Originally posted by wolfwood@Jul 20 2005, 04:57 PM
yes we do have exclusive in swedish.

I thought so.

paulie also has one that luffy cant do remember the pipe hitch manouver,

Ok, it appears my memory fails me here. Wanna help and tell me when exactly he uses this technique so that I can check it?

and he really couldnt save as many people as Paulie could with mulitple ropes.

True that. If the amount of people or objects that need to be saved grows then Paulie could surpass Luffy. But basically it is the similar move.

**and finaly i get really annoyed at how Franky just simply can pull out any weapon from his ass and say ahaha this is my secret attack that i installed before this battle <_<

but maybe thats just me :lol:
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Well whether you like or dislike it is free for yourself to decide. But your attitude towards it doesnÂ´t defy the fact that Franky is able to pull any weapon from his ass. Wheter you like it or not, he can do it. :P

Solid

"True Luffy couldnÂ´t grab all of them with his two hands. But couldnÂ´t he just squeeze around 4 people with just one arm like a snake? IsnÂ´t that actually the same thing that a rope does (since a rope doesnÂ´t have hands)?"

Maybe he can, but I've seen anything like that from Luffy.

"One more then Paulie though. ;) Besides Paulie always uses just ropes (no matter if one or more) Franky uses, weapons out of his mouth, fingers, palms, fists and legs. Additional to that he can grow mutlitple defensive points such as using his arms as a shield or simply laying on his back. I mean how fucking awesome and creative is an invinsible battle mode where just lay on your back while wearing a hawaii shirt? :lol:"

Just like Sanji always kicking, Zoro is always cutting nami always uses her climatact and so on.

That also a reason why I dont think Franky will join, Franky has too many things that he can do, all the other SH almost always do the same things when they're atttacking.

Luffy: Stretching
Zoro: Cuts
Nami: Weather attacks
Usopp: Shooting
Sanji: kicking
Chopper: transforms
Robin: Grips
Pauley: Ties
Franky: Um..

Ivotas

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 05:07 PM
Just like Sanji always kicking, Zoro is always cutting nami always uses her climatact and so on.

Precicely Zoro uses his sword fighter techniques as varietywise as he can, Sanji his kicks etc. even Paulie like you say uses his ropes and Franky his cyborg body.

**That also a reason why I dont think Franky will join, Franky has too many things that he can do, all the other SH almost always do the same things when they're atttacking.

Luffy: Stretching
Zoro: Cuts
Nami: Weather attacks
Usopp: Shooting
Sanji: kicking
Chopper: transforms
Robin: Grips
Pauley: Ties
Franky: Um..
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You make it very easy here right. First of all Luffy does much more then stretching. If Luffy could just stretch then he wouldnÂ´t defeat nobody. HeÂ´s rubber man remember. So you must be pretty strong to be able to hurt somebody with a rubber fist.
Best example is his Gomu Gomu no Gatling Gun. You see lots of fists there, but this technique isnÂ´t a result of his DF power. At least last time I checked rubber doesnÂ´t give you the ability to multiply your extremities. So it isnÂ´t that easy to sum it down like you did.

But if you want to play it that way we can. Basically Chopper and Franky both transform. Chopper in a biologic and Franky in a technologic way, or in other words, Chopper mutates and Franky transforms. For further explenations on mutating and transforming check such series as series like X-Men or TransFormers.

So basically both Chopper and Franky, use all the different stages of their bodies in combat. Just one more thing that qualifies Franky. The Strawhats already have a "mutant" now itÂ´s time for a "cyborg". A normal human can still join later on but I doubt that they will ever again have the chance to get a cyborg.

So if you want me to follow your rules it would be like that:

Luffy: Stretching
Zoro: Cutting
Nami: Stealing…er...Stick Style Wheather Attacks
Usopp: Sniping
Sanji: Kicking
Chopper: Mutating
Robin: Grabing
Paulie: Tying (sp?)
Franky: Transforming

wolfwood

ah the pipe hitch is when he puts a knife on the edge of the rope and swings it toward Luchi after theyve broken thru the wall into Iceburg-sans room.

i may have gotten the name wrong but i think it was called the pipe hitch something :lol:

Solid

Originally posted by Ivotas+Jul 20 2005, 11:21 AM–>QUOTE(Ivotas @ Jul 20 2005, 11:21 AM)

Ivotas

_Originally posted by wolfwood+Jul 20 2005, 05:24 PM–>QUOTE(wolfwood @ Jul 20 2005, 05:24 PM)ah the pipe hitch is when he puts a knife on the edge of the rope and swings it toward Luchi after theyve broken thru the wall into Iceburg-sans room.

YouÂ´re right. I just checked it. I memorized that attack as if there was only one knife attached to the rope and that the otherÂ´s we saw where just used as an effect to show the speed of this move. Apperantly I was mistaken.

Well ok Luffy couldnÂ´t pull this move I admit. He could do it with one knife but thatÂ´s not the same. I stand corrected on that one. It would be to far off if I would claim that Luffy could pull the same move if he somehow attaches mulitple knifeÂ´s on his arms. That just wouldnÂ´t be a Luffy move. :D

i may have gotten the name wrong but i think it was called the pipe hitch something :lol:
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Nope you were right on the name. ItÂ´s "Pipe Hitch Knives" IÂ´m just not good with the names of the newer attacks. ThatÂ´s why I was lost here. Actually except for Tekkai I have no idea what the name of the other Rokushi moves are. Or if I do know the names, I donÂ´t know to which move they belong to. :(

@Jul 20 2005, 05:32 PM
Transforming? Maybe I got it wrong here, but Franky has only transformed one time, and it wasnt exactly an attack, or do you think shooting spikes out of his mouth count as transforming?
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_It appears you got it wrong. Where is it written that a transformation only happens when the entire body changes itÂ´s shape? Nowhere!

Throughout this arc Franky transformed multiple body parts into a weapon, his mouth, his finger, his palm, his fist and his legs. That is definitely transforming. You might wanna check dictionaries and lexica what they say about mechanic transformation. ;)

And yep, what Chopper and all the other logia type users are pulling is actually a sort of controlled mutation. That can be checked too. ;)_

LUCCI DA PIGEON PIMP

Franky is a human weapon , that's his particularity , that's why he has so many attacks , what's so wrong with that ?
Franky and usopp using similar attacks ? Have you seen franky throwing rotten eggs or tabasco sauce on somebody ? Just because franky shot spike from his mouth doesn't mean that he is like usopp , the spike attack was an allusion to the character of pampa in final fantasy 8 even their pose are the same .

patz

_Originally posted by Paulie+Jul 19 2005, 03:22 PM–>QUOTE(Paulie @ Jul 19 2005, 03:22 PM)So Oda chooses to showcase Franky's character growth, as this'll be his only chance to do so, seeing as how Franky won't be joining and Paulie will.

You're not making sense. I seriously never heard of this theory before. Why would the creator waste his time to develop a character and throw him away? I'll tell you what. Paulie didn't have much showcase as same as Dalton because he will never join. That's why it is a waste of time to showcase a filler character like him.

Originally posted by Paulie@Jul 19 2005, 12:40 PM
**Paulie: …Looks like I get to come with you guys after all! runs away to the new ship...

Admit it. You can see it happening, too!**

I believe you do realize that running away from debt collectors is more serious than running away from goverment.

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 19 2005, 03:29 PM
Ivotas, why do you compare Dalton with Paulie?! Daltn didnt even have attack names, and no character gimmicks neither..

Yes, he does. Both attack name and gimmick.

@Jul 20 2005, 07:39 AM
Sanji fights with Luffy too, so why not with pauley, its like they will be rivals or something._

_So, why not Franky then?

Admit it, Paulie's attacks is very useless when he against a fire user or a swordman. If Paulie can't do anything against CP9, what can he do with enimies in the future which seem to be a lot stronger than CP9? If it's that hard for you to admit. why don't you just look at the poll's result?_

Solid

Originally posted by LUCCI DA PIGEON PIMP@Jul 20 2005, 11:47 AM
Franky is a human weapon , that's his particularity , that's why he has so many attacks , what's so wrong with that ?
Franky and usopp using similar attacks ? Have you seen franky throwing rotten eggs or tabasco sauce on somebody ? Just because franky shot spike from his mouth doesn't mean that he is like usopp , the spike attack was an allusion to the character of pampa in final fantasy 8 even their pose are the same .
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The spikes, the fire, Weapon Left and Finger Ouch is kinda like GunPowder Star.

@ Patz

Sure of that? its been mentioned by other in this thread. Oda develops all characters and neither does he throw away his character, we've almost seen all previous character again.

it was a joke, don't be so rude.

Ok, didnt know that.

That wasnt an argument for him to join…

Its is also hard for Sanji, Luffy and Chopper to fight against a swordsman and it is especially hard fro Chopper to fight against a fire user. About the poll, Franky has his shining moment right now while it was a while paulie had that, thats why.

Ivotas

_Originally posted by Solid+Jul 20 2005, 05:52 PM–>QUOTE(Solid @ Jul 20 2005, 05:52 PM)

Originally posted by LUCCI DA PIGEON PIMP@Jul 20 2005, 11:47 AM
Franky is a human weapon , that's his particularity , that's why he has so many attacks , what's so wrong with that ?
Franky and usopp using similar attacks ? Have you seen franky throwing rotten eggs or tabasco sauce on somebody ? Just because franky shot spike from his mouth doesn't mean that he is like usopp , the spike attack was an allusion to the character of pampa in final fantasy 8 even their pose are the same .
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The spikes, the fire, Weapon Left and Finger Ouch is kinda like GunPowder Star.
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You the more I listen to your arguments the more I get the impression you always focus on that whatÂ´s completely not important. If you still want to go by that similarity statement then we could say that all the Strawhats fighting skills are the same because all are violent fighting techniques that are used to brutally surpass the villain. And therefore LuffyÂ´s style is similar to ZoroÂ´s, NamiÂ´s to Usopps, SanjiÂ´s to ChopperÂ´s, RobinÂ´s to LuffyÂ´s etc.

If it would be like that then Luffy should travel alone and the first one who should join his crew shouldnÂ´t be a guy who hurts enemies in order to surpass them but instead gently persuades them to put down their weapons instead.

And afterwards the third person who joins canÂ´t use neither brute force nor gentle persuasion to surpass the character. It should be a magician that with a snap of his finger makes the villains disappear into the Phantom Zone. :lol:

Oh wait, I still got more comming. The fourth one could still be Sanji. But instead of kicking the enemies he gives the villains something to eat and they refuse to fight afterwards. DidnÂ´t he do that with Gin? Damn, why didnÂ´t stick Oda with that brilliant formula in SanjiÂ´s further villain encounters?

Oh and finally, Luffy could get a musician. His way to surpass the enemy is to sing a lullaby song that makes all the villains fall asleep.

That would be completely different styles of surpassing the enemy if you insist in spinning your silly "similarity argument" any further! :P

@Jul 20 2005, 05:49 PM
If it's that hard for you to admit. why don't you just look at the poll's result?
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Well though I agree with you on almost everything, I really think that bringing up the poll result is a bad argument. Statistic data is just an indicator for quantity but not quality and shouldnÂ´t prove any point besides how many people chose which option. Just wanted to point that out. :)

Solid

_Originally posted by Ivotas+Jul 20 2005, 12:03 PM–>QUOTE(Ivotas @ Jul 20 2005, 12:03 PM)

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 05:52 PM
**> Originally posted by LUCCI DA PIGEON PIMP@Jul 20 2005, 11:47 AM

Franky is a human weapon , that's his particularity , that's why he has so many attacks , what's so wrong with that ?
Franky and usopp using similar attacks ? Have you seen franky throwing rotten eggs or tabasco sauce on somebody ? Just because franky shot spike from his mouth doesn't mean that he is like usopp , the spike attack was an allusion to the character of pampa in final fantasy 8 even their pose are the same .
[snapback]92965[/snapback]

The spikes, the fire, Weapon Left and Finger Ouch is kinda like GunPowder Star.
[snapback]92968[/snapback]**

You the more I listen to your arguments the more I get the impression you always focus on that whatÂ´s completely not important. If you still want to go by that similarity statement then we could say that all the Strawhats fighting skills are the same because all are violent fighting techniques that are used to brutally surpass the villain. And therefore LuffyÂ´s style is similar to ZoroÂ´s, NamiÂ´s to Usopps, SanjiÂ´s to ChopperÂ´s, RobinÂ´s to LuffyÂ´s etc.

If it would be like that then Luffy should travel alone and the first one who should join his crew shouldnÂ´t be a guy who hurts enemies in order to surpass them but instead gently persuades them to put down their weapons instead.

And afterwards the third person who joins canÂ´t use neither brute force nor gentle persuasion to surpass the character. It should be a magician that with a snap of his finger makes the villains disappear into the Phantom Zone. :lol:

Oh wait, I still got more comming. The fourth one could still be Sanji. But instead of kicking the enemies he gives the villains something to eat and they refuse to fight afterwards. DidnÂ´t he do that with Gin? Damn, why didnÂ´t stick Oda with that brilliant formula in SanjiÂ´s further villain encounters?

Oh and finally, Luffy could get a musician. His way to surpass the enemy is to sing a lullaby song that makes all the villains fall asleep.

That would be completely different styles of surpassing the enemy if you insist in spinning your silly "similarity argument" any further! :P

@Jul 20 2005, 05:49 PM
If it's that hard for you to admit. why don't you just look at the poll's result?
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_Well though I agree with you on almost everything, I really think that bringing up the poll result is a bad argument. Statistic data is just an indicator for quantity but not quality and shouldnÂ´t prove any point besides how many people chose which option. Just wanted to point that out. :)
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.. he asked, I answered, no need to act silly about it becasue you're just wasting your time._

Ivotas

Originally posted by Solid@Jul 20 2005, 06:29 PM
.. he asked, I answered, no need to act silly about it becasue you're just wasting your time.
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Maybe now you realize how silly your own argument is. It sometimes requires strange analogies to visualize something. My point still stands.
You always avoid to reply to key parts with bringin up uninteresting quasi arguments. And in the end when you are completely out of arguments, you just reload your old arguments and start from the beginning. ItÂ´s like talking to a wall.

This time I turned that thing around on you and used silly quasi arguments myself. See how annoying such a level of argumentation is? :P

Solid

Originally posted by Ivotas+Jul 20 2005, 12:38 PM–>QUOTE(Ivotas @ Jul 20 2005, 12:38 PM)