Smoker even acts a lot like Garp. He and Garp are both wild cards that don't seem to follow orders very much at all.
Posts made by Polygon
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RE: General Marines Thread
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RE: Ancient Weapons
I seem to recall it being stated that the weapons were strong enough to completely vaporize an entire island.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
You are correct for the most part. However even though we don't know a lot of things we do know enough to arrive at some conclusions. Most of these are really common sense, and not something that needs to be explicitly stated. For example, we know from the war that simply having Haki is not enough, that Haki is not going to be effective every time etc
And there was nothing that showed they still had a hole through their bodies even before much time went by. That's the main thing we were arguing, since you were the one making a big deal about Sakazuki not having any kind of scar even though there's a lot of instances of a hit not leaving anything.
Seems like you're really grasping for straws here huh.
**I don't know why you keep on saying "they", since I already said that Luffy did heal because he got the time to heal and we saw that he did.
Anyway, your logic is basically "we didn't see the wound so that much mean he healed." That is a very flawed way of thinking. Only because we didn't see the wound, does not mean it still wasn't there because we didn't get a good looks at the spot he was stabbed. Even if the wound remained it wouldn't necessarily be visible because of Sanji's clothes. If might have healed, but there's no proof it did. Unless you want to show me a page during Thriller Bark we get a clear shot at where the wound was supposed to be?**
So no answer here either, got it.
Like I said before, just because Aokiji responded one way to one thing does not mean Akainu has to respond the same way. They were in different situations and are different people.
You're not showing anything that backs this up.
Considering at least some attention is drawn to damage being done or even outright stated whenever Ambition is used the better conclusion to come to is that they weren't.
Do not make things up. Anyway, the idea that people like Whitebeard, Marco or Vista would be stupid enough to not utilize Haki against a logia is idiotic. Common sense tells us that Haki was being used in all their skirmishes with the Admirals.
The guy braced himself before Luffy started attacking. Whether he can use Ambition or not is irrelevant since that's not what this particular argument was about.
Don't try to change what is being discussed.
You made that up.
It doesn't matter. You were the one who said that without Ambition a logia can't be slowed down at all. Obviously it worked if only for a couple seconds.
Haki was obviously being used, we saw what happens to a logia when Haki or their natural weakness is not in use. They don't so much as fell it, Kizaru obviously felt obligated to stop for one reason or another. It was because Whitebeard was using Haki against him.
Like Smoker, whether he can use Ambition or not is irrelevant.
Stay on-track.
Pistol KissNo proof Pistol Kiss was imbued with Haki. If it hurt Luffy it's because it's sharp. There is a reason Whitebeard never put Haki into his quakes when he attacked from a distance or why Mihawk did not put Haki into any of his long distance slashes thus far.
Sure got stopped enough for Luffy and Jinbei to get thrown to Buggy.
He wasn't disturbed in the slightest. He was surprised by Croc being there and that's when Jimbei/Luffy were sent flying.
The Armament Aspect isn't visible, what page was that? Show these special circumstances please.
Did you miss the latest chapter? Luffy used Armaments Haki against the Pacifista.
No, you're just saying he is without anything back it up. Throwing out blanket statements like "when a logia wasn't hurt" does nothing to confirm what you're trying to suggest.
So please show a scan and stop repeating yourself.
A scan is not the only method of proving something. I have proven what I wanted to prove, and you are denying it solely because it doesn't suit your argument.
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
Okay so that got way off-topic >_>. This seems to be what the discussion is about
Are Sanji and Zoro stronger than Jimbei now? Not that it matters IMO cause he ain't joining anyway but let's see.
Jimbei was shown to be better than Moria and to one-shot one of the zoan prison guards in Impel Down.
Have Sanji and Zoro have surpassed this? Hard to tell so far but I doubt it. Thier beating of the Px is'nt that impressive considering Hancock beat many of them in the war.
As Zkaiser said it is probaly too early for 3 members of the crew to surpass some of the warlords. Luffy sure, but not the other 2. Not yet.
However we won't truly know until the fishman Island arc.**Zoro and Sanji shold both easily be able to oneshot a demon guard by now, considering they can now oneshot a Pacifista which is many times stronger than any demon guard.
Why does Hancock beating multiple Pacifista suddenly making beating the Pacifista not very impressive? Hancock is obviously, very, very strong and for all we know still be stronger than Luffy post timeskip.**
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
Look like everybody is forgetting that there was at least 10 Vice Admirals, all Haki-User.
Very true. Marco and Akainu were not the only people there even though they were the only people highlighted. This is a war, there are a lot of things going on and we can't assume we know what happened off-panel.
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
lol, now you're just being a Derp
Oda clearly shown Akainu as the guy who passed through all of them, the only
Marco was one of the victims or was too slow, which I doubt, there's really nothing to argue here**You're making things up. Fact of the matter is that Oda did not show Akainu going through Marco. Ever.
In fact, if you read the chapters carefully you'll notice that it's probably Marco that got away from Akainu, not Akainu that made it through Marco. We know this because in the spread where Akainu faces the commanders, Marco is apparently by the water near the ships. Meaning, that more than likely, Marco stalled Akainu long enough for Jimbei to run and then fled to the ship to try and get away.**
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
So having Sanji and Luffy both constantly running around and the lack of a gaping hole through their chest and stomach respectively doesn't show that they recovered somewhat at minimum. Hell it doesn't really matter since stuff like this happens all the time.
Awesome.
Luffy did heal, he was given time to. No indication Sanji did. That's all there is to it.Sakazuki wouldn't be complaining had Marco and Vista not hit anything.
His reaction would be similar to Kuzan when Newgate tried to stab him if that were the case. No go.Why do two people have to react the same way to the same thing?
Post any scans which back this up. Not what you think, not a bad attempt at explaining.
When Akainu, Kizaru and Aokiji were hit by Haki users and were not damaged.
You mean like:
-Smoker against Luffy's Jet Gatling
-Borsalino with Apoo
-Crocodile during the first fight with Luffy
-Kuzan at the beginning when Newgate quaked him
-Sakazuki when Crocodile cut him in halfOh wait these don't go with what you're suggesting, no wonder you didn't bring them up.
-Smoker can't use Haki and wasn't disturbed at all.
-Kizaru wasn't disturbed at all, hell he wasn't even trying. Plus you can tell whether Haki is being used or not so he didn't bother.
-Croc wasn't disturbed at all and can't use Haki .
-Evidence suggests you can't put Haki into intangible things.
-He wasn't disturbed at all.And again, I'm asking you post a page that shows Newgate using the Armament Aspect when attacking Borsalino. I don't want to see you attempting a convoluted explanation with nothing from the comic as a base. Show a scan or don't bother responding.
**You realize you can't see Armaments Haki except in special circumstances right?
I proved to you he did use Haki and you're ignoring it because it doesn't suit you're argument.**
I think that wasn't Haki, it was just him cutting Kizaru so he couldn't fly over
Rayleigh did the same thingRayleigh used Haki. If it wasn't Haki it wouldn't have stopped Kizaru in the slightest.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
@Polygon: Sanji seemed fine and no attention was brought to it, and Luffy was no worse for the wear even while wedged in between the buildings so I'm gonna go with what we were shown instead of what you think. Also, Sakazuki didn't "heal" from anything, the guy just took the hits and they didn't hurt him much. You're skewing way too much in order for your little speculation to fit into some Ambition battle nonsense when nothing points to magmaman utilizing it any way when getting attacked.
And you said something about Newgate using the Armament Aspect against Borsalino, and I asked you to prove it using scans. Otherwise everything you're suggesting falls apart since it doesn't work.
**He seemed fine because he didn't bitch about his, plus his superhuman endurance. Nothing suggests he healed from the stab during Thriller Bark and you have no evidence he did heal. Luffy healed, he was given time to heal. And you're right, Akainu never healed from anything because he was never hit in the first place. He either created a void where the attacks would have landed or used his own Haki to negate the attack bypassing his intangibility. Also, yes there is plenty supporting my theory that you can use Haki to negate Haki.
So that's what you meant. If Whitebeard didn't use Haki there would have been no reason for Kizaru to stop in the slightest since the attack wouldn't have affected him in the slightest. Not to mention common sense: Whitebeard was a very high level fighter and thus likely used Haki in every strike he could plus he knows Kizaru is a logia and that he'd need Haki to even touch him.**
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
So…nothing, good to know.
As for examples for injuries? There's Sanji getting stabbed through the heart against Absalom or Luffy taking that hit against Lucci when he first showed the Neko Fruit: Model Leopard.
Still waiting on anything for Borsalino by the way.
**What do you mean "nothing." You're wrong, I just proved it.
None of those examples work. Sanji didn't magically heal from that stab seconds/minutes later. Hell, there's no evidence he ever healed from that stab during the entire duration of Thriller Bark iirc. Luffy ha the entire train ride to heal from the wound Lucchi gave him. You, however, are suggesting Akainu healed from a giant hole in his neck in minutes or less. No, just no.
Waiting on what for Kizaru? He obviously wasn't hit either.**
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
Yeah I already covered all of this in the last page except Borsalino. Anyway, like I've said: we see characters get stabbed and sliced through all the time and soon after a scar or anything isn't shown.
With Borsalino, Newgate didn't seem to be utilizing Ambition against him any of the times he attacked with the bisento so that's covered. Unless you can somehow prove Newgate was using the Armament Aspect you've got nothing.
**I know what you've covered. It's just you're very obviously wrong here. It's true that people in OP have healed from pretty nasty injuries without any scars. But no one in OP has ever healed from a giant gash like like so quickly (his neck was fine directly after that). Hell, no one has ever healed from a gash like that period. No one but Marco, and that's only because he has a fruit that specifically allows him to do so.
Akainu's intangibility was never bypassed in the first place. That's the only explanation.**
His void was big enough to hold 2 swords in there, and its probably worse to void yourself too much than to void yourself enough to still have both your hands, eyes, hears and feet ready to attack
Just a theoryHum… Possibly? Who knows?
Still, shouldn't Vista and Marco be at enough level to do such a thing?**Just barely though. That's my point. If you were a logia, and saw two Haki infused swords coming for your neck would you just barely dodge or try and dodge so that you have the biggest chance of being uninjured?
Yes, they should be. My theory is that their Haki was weaker than usual at the time because they had just witnessed Ace's death. Remember how much mindset affected the Strawhats at the mansion at Water 7. A similar thing may have happened here.**
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
It's simple. If a normal guy (like Zoro) got hit it would make him bleed, but he wouldn't los his head, but since Akainu is magma it appeared as the cut took his head off. It didn't. Haki just allows people to inflict dmg uppon logias while they still can go element mode.
Luffy punches Kizaru without haki > he turns to light.
He uses haki > Kizaru turns to light again but he takes dmg ?
@_@ im confused
**No, that's not what's been shown at all.
Haki allows you to bypass DFs, but only on contact. This was shown when the Boa sisters fought Luffy. He ceased to be rubber (in a sense) only in the area there weapons were making contact with his body.
However, it's obviously not as simple as that. There seems to be a method people can use to prevent people from completely bypassing their own DFs. My personal theory is that if you want to bypass someone's DF, you have to have Haki on or above their level.** **Admirals are Haki masters, so even some very powerful Haki users (such as certain commanders) aren't able to bypass their intangibility.
Basically, you can only bypass a person's DF if your Haki is equal to or above theirs. With the case of Marco/Vista vs Akainu, it seems like their Haki wasn't strong enough at the time (since the strength of your will fluctuates depending on the situation) to completely bypass Akainu's intangibility but was strong enough to cause him some discomfort.**
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
I'm fairly positive Akainu did the same AoKiji did and controlled the Magma in his body to converge, creating a void where he should have been striked
Very unlikely, considering if that was the case it'd make a lot more sense to make a much bigger void as opposed to one just barely big enough.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
I agree with the point about Kizaru to a certain extent. He was just hit way to hard and with such a clear shot, for a wound to not have resulted from it. As for Aokiji, I still say he just moved out of the way.
It is possible Aokiji just created a hole in himself before Whitebeard had a chance to, and dodged the attack that way. However considering that Akainu and Kizaru were both attacked, and their intangibility remained unbypassed in a similar manner I think it's more probably that Aokiji also used his Haki to make it to that Whitebeard couldn't bypass his intangibility.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
Yeah no, you guys try way too hard to tie Ambition into every little thing.
Try again please, and not badly like with Zkaiser in the other thread.
How else do you explain Akainu healing back from a giant gash in his neck? He's not Marco, he doesn't have healing powers. His real body was never hit in the first place, we can even see the magma dripping from the cut. It's very obvious that Akainu somehow used his own Haki to make it so that Marco and Vista couldn't properly bypass his intangibility. There is no other possible explanation. Same thing happened when Whitebeard attacked Kizaru and Aokiji.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
Judging from his facial expression and comment, it seemed that the attack did "hurt" Akainu somewhat.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
Just because an attack is imbued with the Armament Aspect doesn't mean if the Power User is hit the fight is done or the hit is fatal. And with logias I wouldn't use what state their elemental body is in after an attack to gauge how much damage it actually did. I mean we saw Kuzan shatter into pieces yet all he had was a bloody lip; for Sakazuki those two slashes simply didn't hurt him much in spite of where they hit. I mean we've seen Luffy be gutted through(Crocodile, Lucci), Zoro take attacks that slice up the stone behind him(Daz Bones), Sanji stabbed through the heart(Absalom) and a lot of other stuff.
Once contact is made it's all dependent on the individual's toughness like anyone else, and it's not too out there to assume the Admirals are really really tough in spite of being logias.
That makes no sense. Akainu's durability and/or endurance is obviously not what helped him against Marco's and Vista attack. You could clearly see a giant gash in his neck. It's obvious that Haki is not a guaranteed method of bypassing DFs and that it depends greatly on the users skill etc.
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RE: General 'Haki' Discussion
I have a theory. It's a simple one. Vista and MArco had a weaker Haki than Akainu at the time due to Akainu basically being on a rampage and Marco/Vista witnessing the death of their brother.
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
@ <nico:< small="">> So you're going to tell me that the only person stronger than Mihawk on Roger's crew was Roger himself? Since Rayleigh is a swordsman and Mihawk is better at that than Rayleigh, Mihawk > everyone else?
Like Rayleigh himself has expressed, he's weakened since his days on the Oro Jackson. I think he was stronger than Mihawk is now a decade or two back, but he's since gotten weaker than Mihawk.
hancock i am assuming had shown kings haki at that point.plus she had her near invincible df + the weapon which she hasnt been shown using which should probably do something. that would make her shichibukai level on any day.
ace at that point was already powerful enough to battle an already existing shichibukai. although the battle took place later, that does not change their power levels.same thing, made him shichibukai level.
their fighting ability at that point was laready at or above lower shichi level.
not at nay point did any individual sh crew member show that fighting ability till the time skip.Or maybe they'd be accepted even if they were weaker than the people you mentioned based on their potential or w/e? Not saying they'd be accepted for sure, but it's a possibility.</nico:<>
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
Hancock was given the position of Warlord when she had a mere 80 million bounty and Ace was offered the position as a rookie. Zoro and Sanji were by no means as strong as any of the Warlords before the skip, but that doesn't mean that they weren't strong enough to be appointed as Warlords. Especially considering the Warlords seem to be chosen partly based on potential as opposed to just fighting ability.
The funny thing about Polygon is that most of his arguments are among the most subjective in this thread that I can even see him saying "I'm actually Oda and I'm writing the story so I know what I'm talking about".
**How are any of my arguments subjective?
Taking potty shots as me isn't going to help your sorry ass in the slightest. If you think my arguments are flawed either show me why or keep your trap shut.**
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
Haki is not separate from swordsmanship, it does not stand alone as any sort of style. Anyway, everything so far points to Rayleigh being a swordsman in the same way Zoro and Mihawk are.
first you say he wouldn't be able to put up a fight against any top tier.
Then you say the sh top crew atm are stronger than him (for you)
how is that not placing them near the top tier?also it would be fair to say that both got improvement after that incident, just one character improving doesn't stand in one piece.
**It's not really hard to understand. There is an ENORMOUS gap between Jimbei and the top-tiers. The trio are imo stronger than Jimbei, but still many times weaker than any top-tier. Being stronger than Jimbei does not automatically mean you are a top-tier.
Ace was a talented rookie making his way up in the world where as Jimbei was around 40 years old and his growth had probably already started to stagnate by that point.**
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
absolute fodder?
so you mean to say all three have surpassed ace as well? jimbei fought down ace to a draw if you remember.
jimbei overcame moria too in a single hit takeout. and moria was easily stronger than any single sh crew member on any given day.it was plot, that defeated him.
how can you base a supposition on something we have no clue about yet?
taking out a pacifista doesnt mean you are automatically shichibukai material,does it?**Yes, absolute fodder. He wouldn't be able to put up the slightest fight against any top-tier. Re-read his exchanges with Akainu and this becomes pretty clear.
Also, no I don't think any of the trio are stronger than Ace. It's true that Ace tied with Jimbei, but it's also true that he fought Jimbei before he even joined the Whitebeard Pirates. He no doubt got a lot stronger since then.
EDIT: I am not saying the monster trio are top-tiers, or anywhere near, yet. Just that they are, imo, stronger than Jimbei as of now.**
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
@Dan:
Assuming Rayleigh is strictly a swordsman, which i doubt. He seems much more likely to supplement his overall style with the a sword much like WB did with his Bisento or Lucky Roo and Beckmen likely do with their guns.
Considering he doesn't have a DF and chose to fight Kizaru with his swords, I doubt that.
Citation Needed
**Can't be bothered to link you to the exact pages right now, but here are a few examples:
-Akainu told Jimbei that being a Schichbukai, he should be well aware of the power the Admiral wields. Jimbei said something to the effect of "If by tearing this body apart, I can delay you in the slightest then I am content." That's clearly Jimbei admitting he's inferior to Akainu.
-He couldn't do anything to Akainu at all in the war, the only thing he could do was run away with Luffy.
-Ivankov whom seems around Jimbei's level or stronger imo, was basically one-shotted by Akainu.There are probably more. Fact is Jimbei is fodder to any top-tier.**
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
If the Strawhats have three members above Warlord level then they are a fucking world power. I mean Vista and Jaws were both cornered by Warlords on the verge of losing had their fights actually mattered. Stop underrating the power of a Warlord. Just because two lost against Luffy in the most favorable plotarmored fashion and one is "a girl" people just seem to think that being on a Warlord's level is child's play.
The Schichbukai so far have shown to vary greatly in strength. Moria was so weak he wasn't even worthy of being a Schichbukai anymore, whereas Mihawk is apparently stronger than the likes of Rayleigh. Schichbukai level covers an enormous range, so mentioning it is pointless. Moria even said that there are plenty of pirates out there capable of being Schichbukai. Anyway, Jimbei is absolute fodder to any top-tier so it's nor far-fatched to think the monster trio has surpassed him.
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RE: Last Two Nakamates (vol. 5)
Assuming the monster trio has surpassed Jimbei now, I can definitely see him joining.
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RE: Shichibukai strength
@Mr.:
Or maybe he just didn't care. He even thought it would be fun to let the WB pirates get away.
I already covered that possibility good sir.
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RE: Shichibukai strength
Depends on what "using it very well" means, exactly. Rayleigh could sense over an entire island, but we don't know what he specializes in or what his overall strength in haki is. We don't really have anything else to compare it to.
Donflamingo might be proficient in CoO, but Moria might have disappeared however he did to a far enough away place that the majority of haki users wouldn't be able to find him, possibly knowing that Don's specialty was something else.
**Even if his specialty wasn't Observation Haki, I'd still imagine he'd be able to track Moria without any trouble assuming he is a top-tier. Unless Moria instantly traveled 50 miles or something.
Also, I'm guessing that Absolam was the one responsible for Moria "vanishing."**
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RE: Shichibukai strength
**All this talk about Donflamingo and Haki got me thinking. Didn't he say that Moria vanished and he could find him anymore? Doesn't that prove that he isn't able to use Observation Haki? Or, at least, not very well. I'd imagine all top-tiers would be proficient in Observation Haki.
Of course it's also possible he just let Moria go, but I find that unlikely.**
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RE: Coby's potential
Coby's growth has been extraordinary the whole time. Compared to luffy when he first joined the marines he was incredibly weak, far weaker then ussop. Within the time it took luffy to defeat lucci, Coby learned soru. We don't know if he can do tekkai or any other specialized fighting style yet ,but Oda seems to push Coby great leaps during the periods hes out of the story.
**You're overestimating Coby's growth. He went from nothing to being able to use Soru, meaning he does have a degree of superhuman strength. But he was also trained by Garp himself, and the level of strength Coby was at was pretty much nothing even compared to Luffy who was a weakling on a worldwide scale.
There's nothing so far that his growth is great enough to learn the basics of both main types of Haki in just two years. Hell, the entire reason Oda had him "awaken" his Observation Haki in the first place as opposed to bringing it out via training is probably because it wouldn't have had made sense for him to be able to use any Haki at this point otherwise.**
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RE: Coby's potential
Even for someone like Luffy, learning the three types of Haki in just a year and a half was pretty extraordinary. I doubt he has anything more than Observation Haki at this point.
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RE: General Marines Thread
Really wish I could find the chapter, because I think Garp stated he would be staying there for a while.
I don't recally saying Garp would train anyone, just that he would serve as inspiration for the next generation.
Garp: I just sank a pirate ship out in the waters nearby as I arrived.
People: Really?!! That's great…!
Garp: They were a bunch of amateurs... didn't know the first thing about fighting... // In the days to come... there's going to be instability in all the oceans of the world. / Don't let your guard down just because you live in some remote corner of East Blue. / Got that?
People: Yes, sir!!
[Sign: GUARD STATION / Marine HQ Vice-Admiral Garp]
People: Ahhh!! That's reassuring, all right!! // Garp-san, there's been another incident!! A group of bandits have come down from the mountains… / ...and they've taken over Makino's bar!!
Garp: Bandits...?
Makino: Stop!! You mustn't!!
Dadan: Oi, Garp~~~!!!
Garp: !!
People: Ahhh!! It's them!![Box: Elsewhere in the Holy Land of Mariejoa]
Kong: I attempted to stop him… // ...but Garp has for all intents and purposes abandoned his position.
Sengoku: ...............!!
Kong: However, his official rank will remain unchanged. / He will remain in the military.
[Box: World Government / Supreme Military Commander / Kong]
Kong: For the purpose of training young Marine soldiers. // If you mean to forfeit your post as Fleet Admiral…
Sengoku: .........
Kong: ...then I ask that you at least do the same. // Sengoku.From chapters 590 and 594 respectively, translated my Cnet.