By then, I'm afraid it shall be too late.
Well I suppose by that I meant, accept that I was wrong and accept Jinbe as the next crewmate. Though honestly I do expect quite a few chapters of exposition post chapter before we get any official thumbs up or down.
I'll put this out here because I haven't tossed in my two cents for a while now.
I will admit that things look better for Jinbe due to the most recent chapters, but I'm still sitting on the no one joining side of things. We knew from the start, long before most people jumped on the bandwagon, that Jinbe would in all likelihood be fighting alongside the SHs against some force on FI. It's simply in the nature of his relationship with Luffy whether he be a full crew member or a future strong ally that he would fight alongside Luffy to protect his homeland. For me, these chapters come as no surprise. I still feel like the flashback was far weaker in terms of potential-crew member focus than the standards we have been shown and as of now he lacks a reasonable dream/place in the crew aside from straight up brawler. All of those things could certainly be alleviated later, but it's still not enough to convert me yet.
I'm waiting on the post-fight action before even thinking about switching sides.
So what do you think this fight means for his chances as new nakamate?
As of now, absolutely nothing.
In terms of an anti-Jinbe argument, a fight between crew and captain is not uncommon in the SHs. With that said, twisting it into some big with for the pro-Jinbe side is just ridiculous. Luffy has had plenty of fights with ally characters who didn't end up joining the crew.
If the fight is going to tell us anything it'll crop up in the end/aftermath. but really it probably won't swing either way in terms Jinbe argument without some serious twisting.
I have trouble following this argument. I'd say that when he recalled Tiger's final words about what the children see could suffice as the moment where the overlying theme comes together. http://mangastream.com/read/one_piece/11988283/11
I mean, I can't come up with anything in Sanji's, Robin's, or Brook's that fit any better. Maybe I don't understand what you mean?
I'm referring moments like these:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v08/c058/14.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v41/c397/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/one_piece/v50/c488/18.html
Scenes that tie the underlying themes behind the new crewmate together. For Sanji it was realizing that Zeff ate his own leg and starved while he was simply being selfish, for Robin it was rowing away from her burning home while trying to force a smile and Brook watching his companions die all around him being left alone with music and Laboon being all he had left. Basically the epitomization of their tragedy and how they changed the course of their life because of it. Jinbe didn't really get a scene like this to call his own. It felt more like both his tragedy and resolve were shared equally with the rest of the fishman pirates and FI as a whole.
Indeed, but was that not him finishing his "narration" of the story he told? Seems to me the point of his story picks up at the bottom of page 12, and from that point to page 15 it is all about him.
In the context of the story he was telling to the SHs, I agree with you. They needed to hear the story in order to get some sort of closure on relationship between Jinbe and Arlong. To us as readers, it goes for beyond that. I'm not trying to downplay its significance, but we were exposed to the broader significance of the impact of these events on FI. For me, it was hard to focus on Jinbe with that rolling around in my head especially when Hodi appeared at the end of the chapter circling us back to the larger conflict of FI itself.
I might be mistaken, but from what I understand he was involved in every chapter of the flashback in some way, shape, or form.
True, but his presence in 625 and 626 felt like more of a cameo than anything else. Both of those chapters were the real meat of Otohime's story and Jinbe's absence during them just doesn't feel right if this was supposed to be his character flashback.
I hope we can agree that this flashback showed us a solid history of his development and explained why he is who he is now?
No argument here.
Not trying to draw perfect parallels, really, just pointing out that I think Nami's line about Jinbe is similar to Brook's tone dial; likewise, I think Oda still has room for development with Jinbe.
Fair enough. Personally I don't really see any real story driven reason to stagger Jinbe's development as of now. All of the little hints Oda dropped about him all fed into the current subjects at hand, but if we get some major changes within the arc and a bombshell or two dropped about Jinbe it wouldn't be too far-fetched.
But I'm not saying it was held back. I'm saying it was there, it just happened in portions rather than a single moment.
The thing is Oda generally likes to wrap things up into nice tidy packages for us. He always seems to drive his point home with one scene that ties all the elements and themes he builds throughout an isolated story together, especially when it comes to new crew members. I recognize Jinbe's development in this flashback, but without that moment everyone else has gotten it would feel pretty uncharacteristic of One Piece to have him join.
Anyway, all that said I would like to apologize, I think my initial reply to you came off a little more rude/sarcastic than I meant, and as usual I appreciate your calm and polite responses.
No worries at all.
That's an interesting point of view, I guess. My point of view is that pages 12-15* exist.
Fair enough, I suppose. I guess from my standpoint the notes I heard most when the flashback ended were when it literally ended.
The only difference among the many many similarities is that he doesn't have a single page or sequential group of pages that build to a single moment that was a huge development for him.
Well that and the fact that he was, for all intents and purposes, absent from the flashback for a significant period of time.
Now, quick, tell me Brook's "defining" moment.
His time in solitude on the ship where the only light he had was the recording of his old crew.
While you are at it, remind me when Robin's flashback occurred.
If you're referring to the fact that she had her flashback post joining, you got me.
After that, tell me exactly when and where Brook's flashback started and ended, and what chapters it included.
I don't really feel like going on a chapter hunt, but I get what you're trying to say.
Yes Robin and Brook were very different, but there were good story driven reasons behind them. Robin being a woman of mystery who we knew little to nothing about for multiple arcs, Brooks shadow acting as an initial MacGguffin and then the meat of his flashback having little relevance to Thriller Bark itself.
Both Jinbe's past and present characters are deeply interwoven in the conflicts we just saw. It doesn't really make too much sense, as of now, to have held his development back in those kind of ways while the flashback was occurring.
There is no perfect pattern to define in flashbacks; exceptions exist, and as such any future flashback is subject to exception.
I never denied that. I'm only working with what we've been given here and I do recognize the possibility for change in the future.
Yes, I realize exceptions can go both ways, and Jinbe still might not join… not saying he will indefinitely. This is all still just theory up for debate.
Of course, this is simply a discussion for fun.
Of course you cannot. You are apparently the type who won't believe anyone can join until they have basically joined.
What can I say, I like things being concrete.
The thing is, what I was referring to was something we've gotten in all character flashbacks. There are plenty of character defining moments to come, but we've always gotten one in the flashbacks as well. The point of a character flashback prior to their joining of the crew is to solidify the character and tell us as readers what they've gone through and how it has affected them. We just didn't get that same development in Jinbe as we've seen in past crew members. If he had gotten that moment I would have thrown in the towel and joined your side.
@SGR:
In what aspects was this flashback rushed?
The start of the flashback felt somewhat cluttered. Rushed might not be the right word, but Oda put down a lot of information in a very short amount of time coupled with time skips and new characters. It was simply a lot to take in and an extra chapter to help lay down the foundations of the flashback would have made things feel smoother. Once we got towards the end of the Tiger story and into Otohime's story things felt a lot more natural.
I'm also betting you disagree that this flashback started with a question about Jinbe and ended with an answer about Jinbe.
The flashback ended with an answer about the country, not Jinbe.
As for this flashback being focused on Jinbe as past flashbacks were focused on their respective crew members, it's hardly comparable. Every single flashback so far has had a defining moment for the future crew member. Something that acknowledge the tragedy they just experienced, but emphasized their resolve for the future. I'm talking about that one scene that we always tend to get shots of long after the flashback ends. For Nami, running away from the pirates she stole from, for Chopper, waving Hiruluk's flag, Franky, facing down the sea train, Robin rowing away from her burning island and the list goes on.
Jinbe did not have this moment, at all. The only moment where he really stood in the spotlight was when he beat down Arlong, but that hardly represents anything comparable to other SHs. I mean he hadn't even gotten the full dose of Otohime's ideals, which I'm sure you will agree were incredibly important. Without that kind of character defining moment I cannot see him as a crew member.
Shirahoshiiiiiiiiiii pls join i love you !
Post of the thread right here.
The only thing we've learned from this chapter in terms of Shirahoshi is that she's pretty damn important to fishman island's future. Jumping to the conclusions that she's joining the crew from that alone is absurd.
I'm with Urouge here, it's not worth discussing.
Just chiming in to say that I still disagree with you pretty much completely.
Ok, which part?
If you want to argue that past flashbacks have have also focused on mentor figures then I agree with you. This flashback is just very different from past ones in that it is dealing with two major figures and their effects on a fairly major nation, a well known pirate crew, slavery, Jinbe and Arlong over a period of many years leading to numerous time skips. It has made for something that simply feels different from past flashbacks as everything is more spread out in scope.
In terms of circling back to SH members, I don't quite see what you could disagree with. Each one of our character flashbacks has started with the crew member in the past, depicted the tragedy that they were a part of and ended with them coping with it in some way. I personally don't feel like the flashback has effectively put this sort of emphasis on Jinbe yet, but hell if he gets that defining moment that every SH has gotten during the next couple chapters then maybe I'll start singing a different tune.
