luffy vs arlong
luffy vs crocodile
luffy vs lucci
Posts made by cheaptrick
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RE: The Most Awesome Fight in One Piece
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RE: Chapter 659: About My Torso
the other 2 bounties are luffy and law's
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RE: Chapter 659: About My Torso
I really do not like Usopp's "I'll summon anything that is convenient for any situation" seeds. It's more than a little annoying. I think Oda messed up with his growth.
I totally second you, all those tricks have nothing to do with sniping or shooting accuracy.
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RE: Chapter 659: About My Torso
I dunno but seeing law introduced as a shichibukai is kinda.. underwhelming, but I guess someone finally replaced moria as the weakest shichi
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RE: Robin vs Mihawk
voted mihawk because he's clearly the underdog here
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RE: Paulie vs Law
I seriously can't make up my mind on who I should vote for…
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RE: Hancock vs X Drake
Jurassic Park rock! But Hancock is one of my top 3 characters in one piece so no hard feelings drake, please ;-)
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RE: Bonney vs Hancock
celebrating hancock's victory over bonney (once again)
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RE: Bonney vs Hancock
I gotta admit that I used to consider hancock and bonney as the typical female fighters of shounen mangas that heavily rely on broken powers/abilities but are overall weak in physical combat and end up as low/middle tiers: Hancock proved to not be that kind of character during the war while bonney was regarded by blackbeard as nothing more than a good sex slave.
that's plenty enough to vote the empress imo ;-)
edit: @deicide that's an awesome vid! -
RE: Chapter 613:"The Mermaid Princess in Koukaku Tower" Discussion
On a side note if I were Vander and can target several people I would definitly try to put Hodi on the target list however that works for future use. Hope the glove mystery is solved by next ch.
I think vdd's df works exactly like bon-chan's and isn't that the very reason he put on his glove? as a proof of a true alliance? (vdd wants to earn hodi's trust so he has no reason to use his df on him, not to mention that hodi may already know about vdd's df)
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RE: Chapter 613:"The Mermaid Princess in Koukaku Tower" Discussion
I seriously don't see how anyone can think that the princess would join the crew. Here are a few Big issues:
She is a princess,why join pirates?
She came off with the belief that being a pirate equaled being a bad person.
She couldn't fight, not even under water.
How in the world would she fit on the ship?!?!?!
The food she was eating was the size of Luffy.and it wouldn't look good to see two namis in the same spreadshot :-)
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RE: 479: ''The Execution Platform's in Reach! The Path to Ace is Open!!''
just a little consideration, I don't know who made this episode but he must clearly hate hancock: what's with that slow and lame snake surfing walk! it looks like the pacifistas are waiting on purpose for her to get in their way . also, sentoumaru is supposed to have got those few bruises from hancock (he's no fodder so he shouldn't get wounded against random pirates, damnit!) and hancock is supposed to have destroyed those pacifista with force, not just getting in their way!
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RE: Most Disappointing Thing in One Piece
Oda using a flashback to try to pass ace's childish behavior with akainu as cool ,and give him CoC despite not being mentioned by the whitebeard's pirates during the war
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RE: Chapter 602: "Rudder Straight Down!"
From what I can tell, they both say "I see" and then only Luffy says "I don't get it though."
I think the scanlation made a little mess of that panel: both luffy and zoro say "i see" and nami in the sub bubble says, "you don't understand it, do you" knowing there's no way they could understand even if they say otherwise:-)
Also when luffy is in awe for franky's new body, nami doesn't say "i understand how you feel but.." ,which is a very recurrent line in manga/anime , instead she says "i don't understand how you feel but save it for later!!" -
RE: Your Top 10 anime series?
not in order of preference
cityhunter
hokuto no ken
fate/stay night
cowboy bebop
dash kappei
danguard
ranma 1/2
trigun
berserk
slam dunk -
RE: 470: ''The Swordsman Mihawk! Luffy Faces the Black Sword's Slash''
ahah isn't it a little bit unfair to compare mihawk with ryou saeba? and in general, one piece (the anime) with cityhunter?
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RE: 470: ''The Swordsman Mihawk! Luffy Faces the Black Sword's Slash''
I'm especially disappointed by hancock's filler because i was really expecting a continuation of her fight against smoker (but I still have some hope we'll get to see it in the next few episodes) . for everything else, SGRaaize already gave a good review:-)
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
What does usage of "common Japanese expression" have ANYTHING TO DO with whether One Piece is shounen or seinen?
Seriously, WTF? Are you saying shounen manga are written for 5 year olds, and excludes usages of any COMMON EVERYDAY EXPRESSION that may confuse a toddler?no, i'm just saying that they use simple and short synthax (compared to most seinen titles) and while figurative words are often present, if possible they use them with their literal meaning. probably you didn't bother to care about this last detail since you speak japanese everyday
And stop telling me to go Google. OF FRIGGING COURSE if you google "line", "island" and "float to the surface" it's gonna come up as that. When in the hell do you see everyday someone saying "OH DUDE I FIGURED OUT WHAT ISLAND THIS PERSON IS ON BY LOOKING AT THE SEA MAP" as opposed to five million instances of text saying an island came up due to whatever geological tectonic plate shift. This is the single stupidest argument I've ever seen here, Mr "I USE GOOGLE TO TRANSLATE". Did you even understand the context of what those google search results are in? Did you even bother to READ them????
there's no shame at all in looking for examples on google, even if it's your own language, unless you are a journalist or a japanese professor that already master the full use of most of the everyday words; even 1 or 2 good examples may be enough, especially when talking about a literature text (even if not an high level one).
and, like i told you in 2 post already, i didn't deny the meaning and the examples you provided, i just think that in this case it has not that meaningLet me put it in plain language for you.
Rayleigh "figured out" which island Luffy was on AL by studying the "line". Period.
no, even translating it your way , rayleigh only remembered about AL after hearing the direction from kuma, it was only later that connecting all the data together, shakky and rayleigh figured out that luffy had really landed in AL and that now he may be sheltering there
NO, Amazon Lily did not suddenly FLOAT TO THE SURFACE OF THE SEA when Rayleigh looked at the map. That's retarded.
indeed you have a point, but it's not the sea but a line what the verb was relating to, and it's not "suddenly rose up", but just "rose up" (ok, i gotta admit it comes pretty natural to add "to my attention" and just go with the figurative meaning though)
I'm done. This is getting too ridiculous, I'm simply gonna put you on ignore, and save myself the pain of having to read it, and just hope no one takes you seriously.
fine, I get your point; likewise, I don't have much interest myself discussing this matter any longer since however you read it it makes little to no difference.
Kuma doesn't tell rayleigh about AL and this was my whole point in keeping posting in this thread along with the belief that it's very, very, very likely that kuma himself doesn't know the exact locations of perona, the shs and whoever else got blown away with that technique. -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
Uh, you utterly and completely missed my point.
No kidding 浮かび上がる means "rise to the surface". That's the LITERAL meaning.
What I'm saying is, it ALSO is used non-literally, for incidents/lead/suspects that "comes up" in an investigation, or someone simply figuring it out from deduction.Are you seriously telling me to GOOGLE this? I know how common everyday speech is used.
Why don't you Google it. Google 浮かび上がる and…. for example, "犯人像". It's even used very commonly on Japanese NEWSPAPERS for Christ's sake.Let me give you examples of how it's used.
"調査が進むにつれ犯人像が浮かび上がってくる" "As the investigation continues, the image of the suspect slowly becomes clear"
"調査を進めていくと「ミレニアム」という謎めいた名称が何度も浮かび上がってくる" "As the investigation is continued, a mysterious name of 'millennium' is found repeatedly"
"故郷のことを考えると一つの顔が浮かび上がってくる" "As I think about my homeland, one face comes to my mind"
"21世紀に入ってくると生物研究においてあるひとつの可能性が浮かび上がってくる" "As we enter the 21st century, one possibility rises to attention in the field of biological research"I think the problem is you stick to "text books approach" of the Japanese language, which I assume is foreign to you.
Common everyday speech is a little different, and the knowledge of it can only be obtained by interacting in everyday speech with others. Not in classrooms.japanese is not my native language, but we are only talking about a shounen manga here, not some heavy literature text so I don't think it does really matter. anyway I already replied to that in my previous post:
@cheaptrick:浮かび上がる means "rise to the surface", whether you use it figuratively or not depends on the context.
Why don't you Google it. Google 浮かび上がる and…. for example, "犯人像". It's even used very commonly on Japanese NEWSPAPERS for Christ's sake.
fistly, this is no seinen manga.
secondly, like I told you before, it depends on the context. why should i google it with that word? i told you to google it with 島 and ライン because those are the words of the context we are talking about.
the only reason i could see to read 浮かび上がる figuratively like you did, is by reading ライン figuratively too, although personally I don't think that's the case now for a very simple reason:- rayleigh actually didn't "came up" with the idea luffy may have ended up at amazon lily only after hearing his direction from kuma : rayleigh and shakky's deduction came up after collecting all the marine ford data too (actually it was shakky who came up with the idea luffy was at AL ), so actually rayleigh in that panel (and in the whole page) expose one by one all the details that lead to that deduction, starting with the fact that AL was on the direction kuma told him
edit:
@Aohige_AP:Well actually, yes.
Sentoumaru said 三日三晩, which literally means 3 days and 3 nights.
However, this is also a common generic expression to simply mean "days and nights, continuously". and does NOT infact, have to literally mean 3 days and 3 nights.I was also bothered by this, thanks for clearing my doubt
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
I totally disagree. That is not the problem. The problem is where the "飛ばした" is addressed by, not the 本人 part.
the problem lies there too, because if kuma had used 張本人 like rayleigh did, now the misunderstanding would be gone, whatever the context may have been… anyway i think you misunderstood me, when i was talking about the subject i was referring to kuma (and the reason it was omitted) ,not to the word 本人
The reason for ambiguity is for lack of subject. We agree on that.
These are the two possible lines Sentoumaru meant.(ルフィを・奴らを・対象を)飛ばした本人しかわからねェ
(くまが)飛ばした本人しかわからねェThe top would be "The one who sent Luffy (or whomever) is the only one to know"
The bottom would be "The one who Kuma sent is the only one to know"It drastically changes the meaning.
And the verb "sent" can be applied to either subjects just as well.And I feel it's a lot more natural in context to assume Sentoumaru meant to say "奴らを飛ばした本人しかわからねェ"
i agree with everything you said except the conclusion of course; and honestly i don't know why iyo the context would suggest the first interpretation: other than the reason i already posted, if that were to be the case than sentoumaru wouldn't give luffy any new details other than what everybody could already guess by witnessing the technique, hence there would be no reason for sentoumaru to act so solemn ("it could be either the truth or a lie…") and going on as is if he were telling a prophecy
Not only that, but even if the other line was correct, that doesn't necessary suggest phychic powers at all.
It would simply mean Kuma doesn't know where they're going, and the one sent will find out where he/she is going.
The crew obviously didn't know where they were going afterall.indeed it doesn't necessarily suggest it, but it strongly does: if kuma himself doesn't know the destination than there must be some automated mechanism that sends each victim to a certain place. while it has not to be psychic, i wouldn't be surprised if it was something metaphysical just like what kuma did when he "repelled" the fatigue from luffy's body
You shouldn't translate that so literally.
molokidan got it right this time. 浮かび上がる doesn't literally mean "rise"…. it's a commonly used investigation term to mean the subject came up as a lead, or suspect.「始めに彼をこの「方角」へ飛ばしたと
飛ばした張本人が教えてくれたのでな
そのラインに女々島が浮かび上がった」浮かび上がる means "rise to the surface", whether you use it figuratively or not depends on the context. try to type on google 浮かび上がる島 and you'll see plenty of examples, furthermore, all the example i found with ライン and 浮かび上がる had literal meanings. are you sure you didn't mistake it for 浮かぶ ?
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
Of course, I'm not even touching on the HEAVILY IMPLIED concept with the line in this chapter that Kuma doesn't know where he sent Luffy. Although, I haven't heard anything about the original Japanese for this line.
pag 9, top-right panel
初めに彼をこの方角へ飛ばしたと 飛ばした張本人が教えてくれたのではそのラインに女女島が浮かび上がった
"the perpetrator (actually it's a periphrasis and it says: the perpetrator who blew him away) himself told me that he blew luffy away in this direction to begin with, and on that line rose the women island" -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
I think you meant to say, "Told the Marines to fuck off she had no interest in the war whatsoever."
HEY-OOOOOOOH!
Poor Momonga. His plight forgotten by the masses.
so you don't think he predicted luffy would have joined the war, i see.
so what do you think would have happened with the man-hater shichibukai and the weakeaned (because of the fight at SA) luffy on their "first meeting"?
luffy on a man hater island and sanji on a crossdresser island.. maybe you are actually trying to say that kuma is a real sadist and didn't want to tell the exact location just to have those two (three, i forgot zoro with the annoying gothic girl) suffer as much as possible (and possibly die in luffy's case) before being rescued by chuck rayleigh?How can we? You've been spamming it for at least 48 hours.
not really, well not even 1/20 as much as I had to do replying to the "but then why did nobody land on the open sea?" line. but mysteriously now that a mod came up with the very same theory, I hear that line less and less
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
I love how you completely ignore my arguement about why he might not have told Rayleigh the exact location because they impanted recording devices into him during his cyborg transformation. particularly as I reposted it last time in case you didn't see it. Not gonna do that again, but I do give reasons why it makes sense
i dunno if that was referred to me (if it was please put a little quote or it's going to be hard to notice) but i'll try to reply:
-you said that maybe the wg already knew kuma was (still) working for the RA but even so, openly admitting that fact is much worse; furthermore he went next to rayleigh 's house (he' still wanted even if he's old) which is an even more dangerous action. (i assume if kuma had a recording chip he could as well have a gps one)-unless rayleigh himself got setup by the wg (but he seems too cool to be outsmarted by the marines), his discussion with kuma shouldn't have been recorded and here's the reason: when nyon comments with a worried face that it's not good that he could find them so easily, rayleigh replies strongly hinting that the marines won't be able to figure it out because ,unlike them, he got told by the perpetrator himself (kuma) luffy's direction ("to begin with, the perpetrator himself told me he blew him away in this direction")
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
And the million dollar question.
Why wouldn't Kuma tell Rayleigh Luffy's exact location?
Because Rayleigh can swim across the Calm Belt leaving giant sea monsters dead in his wake and collect Luffy ASAP putting a wrench in Kuma's effort to protect him.
And I'll be damned if that's not exactly what the old geezer fucking went and did.
you mean to say that he thought of helping luffy by sending him to an island with a man-hater shichibukai who was about to sail toward the most dangerous war of OP's history? really some help that was…but let's try to accept it for now: so why did he even need to say luffy's direction? he could have just shut up and told rayleigh to wait until the strawhats comeback couldn't he? and lastly, do you really think rayleigh would have tried to reach luffy, had he not lost a brother, received damage beyond words, and, most of all, showed to possess king haki? are you saying that kuma predicted all of luffy future actions up to his return to AL?
It's on page 56.
Yes. You can read Japanese.
We get it.
We don't care.
It's a muddled and needlessly complex approach to an otherwise simple scenario that can be explained by:
He knows where he sent them.
When I read the line it made absolutely perfect sense without having to agonize over subjectverbsubjectnounnounsubjectvolitionalnounverbsubject
nah, that part was only directed to aohige and that those interested who know some jpn grammar, feel free to skip over it
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
I know exactly what aohige and cheaptrick are suggesting and the grammar DOES make sense both ways. No arguing that.
But that doesn't default to meaning Kuma isn't aware of it himself. It's just a mysterious way of saying, "There's no way in hell you'll ever know where they've gone."
Young man to mysterious mountain sage: Where am I going in life O' sage?
Old creepy mountain sage: Only you know where you're going.
Young man: OOOoooooOOOOH!
for those thinking that kuma knows the exact location of his victims: fine, but you have to find a good reason why kuma didn't tell luffy's location to rayleigh (don't forget that he didn't hesitate to tell rayleigh that he was working for the revolutionary army).
abouth that line of sentoumaru in ch513, just like aohige, I also can see easily why he and cnet saw it the other way but i don't agree with them also for various non strictly grammar-related reasons:
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the subject of the periphrasis (kuma) is clear enough to be omitted: who else could perform that techinque other than kuma? no one; where is the "subject" while sentoumaru talks to luffy? very very close.
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why bother using a periphrasis in the first place? why not just saying "only kuma knows"? it could be because the subject is not a person in particular (not just zoro but all those blown away by kuma) but a generic one, hence the need for a periphrasis <–I gotta admit it could be just sentoumaru wanting to perform a cryptic sounding speech though
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why didn't Oda bother to clear all the doubts on the spot (by either using "tobasareta" or "kuma" ? either because he didn't want to , in order to have the freedom to heavily change the plot without messing up all the details any time later, or because he thought that the word honnin 本人 [person himself] was enough to clear any misunderstanding (opposed to the word chouhonnin 張本人 [perpetrator] used by rayleigh in this chapter with the same verb, to refer to kuma)
EDIT: lol greg, good job at anticipating my question :-D
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
Did you consider Kuma might not have wanted to make sure a specific ADMIRAL who happened to be right nearby and also could travel at THE SPEED OF LIGHT could not ascertain the exact location were he to overhear? Seriously, Rayleigh and Kuma weren't the only people there at the time
when rayleigh and kuma talk about luffy's whereabout they are in front of ray's house and the tumult seems to be over.. but if we consider that kuma said to rayleigh that he was working for the revolutionaries no more than 3 meters far from kizaru…
Why the hell would the WG want to help Luffy escape? Kuma blowing them away was basically he's final FU to WG before he was fully converted or "dead".
sorry, i didn't express myself well. i meant that kuma's agreement to let the wg do as they please with his body and head may have been some kind of punishment for helping the shs.. well this is not even a theory, just a feeling of mine, so you don't need to bother thinking over it
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
@Zik:
Ray "risking his life" is irrelevant to that situation and untrue so kill that noise.
As far as Kuma he didn't risk his life at that time either. He risked his status but it wouldn't matter anyway cuz he was going to be "dead" in a few days anyway.
yea maybe saying he was risking his life is too much, but he certainly was at a disadvantage against kizaru, as tis page (top-left panel) shows
!
Wait….are you suggesting Kuma gave a flying fuck about keeping his Schibukai status when he was going to be considered dead 2-3 days later.
forget kuma,(i can't tell if his agreement with the wg had something to do with letting luffy and his crew off the admiral's hook) the main point is rayleigh: after seeing ray fight against kizaru for the shs' sake kuma should have come to trust him enough to tell him luffy's location (if only he knew it, of course)
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
The most likely scenario is that Kuma only bothered to tell Rayleigh the direction he sent Luffy to, and Ray deduced where he ended up.
wait, so you are saying that kuma would risk his own shichibukai status (and maybe much more) to save the strawhats' asses while rayleigh is also risking his life against an admiral..and then later he wouldn't "bother" to tell rayleigh the exact location…? are you serious...?
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
@I:
Not to mention, Cheaptrick, that the admiral was close by when Kuma told Ray what he was doing on SA, and Kuma had no way of knowing for sure that Ray wouldn't randomly blurt out what he said in shock–he had reason to be ambiguous about the location at that moment.
ah so you are saying that at that time there was a huge risk to be intercepted while later (since the admiral and all the marine forces had gone) it was much safer to talk? ok you may have a point but:
-while being at no more than 3 meters far from kizaru, kuma tell rayleigh much more compromising word (that he works for the revolutionary army) so it shouldn't be a big deal mentioning AL later when no marines is that close anymore right?- the way rayleigh answer to the worried nyon (in both the raw and ms scanlation) makes it clear enough that the marines won't be able to figure out luffy's destination because, unlike him, they didn't get to know his direction, so basically we can assume that at least rayleigh was positive there were no marine monitoring him near his house
edit: one more thing I forgot to mention: rayleigh used almost the same line as sentoumaru , referring to kuma in ch 591:
ray: tobashita chouhonnin (飛ばした張本人) the perpetrator who blew (him) away
sentoumaru: tobashita honnin (飛ばした本人)
this time, rayleigh's line doesn't leave any doubts, whatever the context may be. i posted this because I think Oda may really have left it ambiguous purposely to have the freedom to change the plot later according to it -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
@jerk disease: logical sense: what's most logical than what the character themselves says in a manga story in an imaginary world and geared for kids? i'll give you an hint, it's not physics.
@fire fist: what i implied is written in the FACT section of the post you quoted, everything else is speculation (which i support of course, but still mere speculation).
and talking about this speculation of mine, i don't think it's magic but rather an unpredictable way to do it, in Oda's style. (and seriously, had you read about kuma's ability related to the paw paw df in a fanfic outside Oda's story, wouldn't you have commented about it the same way you are doing now?).
Also, you said that maybe kuma couldn't tell the exact location to rayleigh because he (rayleigh) was monitored…good, mind explaining then how come shakky has no problem talking about AL and hancock helping luffy?
whatever, my only concern now are the translation issues of sentoumaru's line of ch513 and rayleigh's line in the latest chapter; i'm not that interested in discussing theories now and i feel like i'm just repeating myself many times over, so i'll spell it out for the last time: i'm sharing the same theory as Urouge as far as the mechanism of that technique of kuma is concerned, so just check my and/or Urouge's previous posts if you are interested.EDIT:
@JERK:Kuma's fruit works around creating pressure, he blasts people with precise pressure to aim them at things.
no, the paw paw fruit repels pretty much anything..(attacks, luffy's fatigue..ah btw the latter shouldn't be possible according to your logic, should it?) creating pressure is only a facade of his power
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
@CCC
to be honest i never harboured any doubt about the fact kuma himself didn't know where he sent its victims, I usually don't read OP scanlations (i now do because they come out before the raw) and don't bother to follow the popular discussions.
grammar- wise both interpretation are correct and semantic-wise there are good reasons for picking either (I'll be partial but i think there are better reasons for picking my and stephen's interpretation).
About the choice of Oda to not use "kuma" or "tobasareta" to clear any doubts on the spot, you have a point; maybe Oda himself was not sure at the time which choice (having kuma aware or not of the shs whereabouts) whould have been better for the future plot. -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
That not a valid reason, He could have told him off screen, he came to see rayligh just to say "i have no time left"?? i doubt it. + are you saying that all the SH went to a place where they will improve by luck? (read decide's posts above)
and as for the direction quote. i think its just a choice of words by translator. i already sent raw in pm to aohige and cent so we'll know soon. plus shakky did mention hancock in same flashback. so he imo told him place.
look, for all i care, while offscreen, kuma could have even told rayleigh about the end of the world, this year's world cup winner, who shot kennedy, or what's gonna be next year top anime…but concerning luffy's destination he didn't give any more accurate details than his general direction when he got blown away. i checked the raw this morning (it's evening now here) and there was no mistake in that line of rayleigh (in one of my previous post i even wrote the exact line next to a literal translation. you may want to check it, while waiting for aohige.)
@deicide: the one you post might be a possible explanation, but i'm still adhering to my theory
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
ambiguous = right word =/= fact^^ Hey Rayleigh I send Luffy to the south… Just hope he won't land in the deep blue ocean!
Same for the others... and strange that Robin landed on an island full of revolutionaries… Sanji at Okama island aka revolutnaries and Franky at Vegapunks lab… And most strange thing is Zoro on the same place as perona.
And why asking they people... Where do you want to go?
And why saying that he has a plan for them... If he hasn't any cuz he had no clue where exactly they land.OK i'll try to switch from english to kishidish:
FACT: kuma doesn't know the exact location of Luffy
REASON: In the latest chapter he didn't tell rayleigh about AL, just the direction luffy took when blown away.FACT (this is what aohige stated too): In ch. 513 there's an ambiguous sentence of sentoumaru which talks about the way kuma's technique works
CONSEQUENCE TO THE 2ND FACT: (IMO)
a)if you still want to keep the old translation of ch 513, then imo the only possible conclusion you can reach is that only kuma can tell which direction people take when blown away and through that he might be able to deduce their possible destination (let me remind you once again that it was rayleigh, and not kuma, who found out Luffy was sent to AL)b)if you use stephen's translation like i did instead, then it's possible that kuma's technique works in its own way automatically sending people to location somehow related to them (place to make them stronger, place they would like to visit, et cetera et cetera) and Kuma can only see the direction they take when taking off, being the closest one at the moment
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
ok, let's try to bring some order:
IT'S A FACT , not a theory of mine , a FACT, that kuma doesn't know the exact location of Luffy (and most likely, all the other shs): In the latest chapter he didn't tell rayleigh about AL, just the direction luffy took when blown away. you don't like it? blame Oda.In ch. 513 there's an ambiguous sentence of sentoumaru which talks about the way kuma's technique works: I won't force my interpretation of that line but if you want to keep the old translation than the only possible conclusion you can reach is that only kuma can tell which direction people take when blown away and through that he might be able to deduce their possible destination (let me remind you once again that it was rayleigh, and not kuma, who found out Luffy was sent to AL)
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RE: Your Top 5 Awesome Anime/Manga Characters Trapped in Shitty Series
uhmm..
ryo saeba - angel heart
saeko - angel heart
kabuto (only first season) - naruto
dorothy - mars heaven
kotegawa yui - to love-ru -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
Though a better possibility was thought out earlier, someone said that the ability kinda uses the thoughts of the person targeted instead of Kuma's to determine the location where he wants to land.
that's what I have been try to say for a long time:-)
@I:
BTW–in asking my husband, (who's from Shimane, born and bred) and who, it must be said, has No interest in this manga (and usually will flat out refuse to help with this stuff), he feels the sentence is as you first read it--that it refers to Kuma, because he says it would be "とばされた本人” if it meant the person who was sent as opposed to the sender, but he doesn't have the raw to look at and felt you may have seen something further in the rest of the page to provide context that would make the sentence ambiguous. (FTR--he was the one who typed that bit of Japanese out--I do not speak beyond rudimentary Japanese)--but can you explain why you feel its ambiguous, in terms of this phrasing? It would be good to know, if possible, if Kuma knows or not, as I'm sure you know. (You can use Japanese if you need to. I'll just ask Masa to help me understand again, lol)
I'll try to answer briefly while Aohige is away (listen to him for a more complete explanation)
tobashita honnin [飛ばした本人] is a simple periphrasis (verb+name) which can be built in 3 ways
a) verb + subject [= the person who blew them himself]
b) verb + object [= the people blown themselves]
c) verb + other generic complement
a) is the simpliest and most used because it gives you the most important information (the subject) while b) and c) are used only when you can easily guess the omitted subject by yourself (lol or when you don't want the person you are speaking with to figure it at all).
Now in this case the possible omitted subject (kuma) can be easily guessed because Kuma is in front of luffy and sentoumaru and he's the only person in the world able to use that technique , so the periphrasis can either be a) or b) type, hence the ambiguity. -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
Looking at chapter 513….
Sentoumaru's line"どこへってのは 飛ばした本人しかわからねぇ"
It seems to be referring to only Kuma knowing where they're being sent.
If the subject was other way around, it has to be: 飛ばされた本人(に)しかわからねぇEDIT: After looking at it for a while, it actually CAN be either way. It's one of the extremely ambiguous structured line where it can mean either or, so stephen isn't necessary wrong.
飛ばした本人しかわからねぇ can mean "the one who's been sent is the only one who knows where he/she is", or "the one who sent them is the only one who knows where".Yeah, Japanese is sometimes messed up like that. The subject of that sentence is ambiguous and easily could be either. :ermm:
Main culprit here is Sentoumaru's broken speech that's skipping formal sentence structures.Personally, it makes a heck of a lot more sense from the context of the flow that it's referring to Kuma (one responsible), but I can see why it can be taken the other way around.
Still ain't got the raw, bub.
yea I also said in one of my previous posts that both translation were possible but I actually agree with stephen for another reason: if kuma was the subject of that sentence there would be no need to use a periphrasis , but rather directly say kuma or aitsu or something like that (since kuma is the only one able to use that technique anyway), while if the subject is the person being blown away him/herself it makes more sense to use that structure to express the concept.
furthermore, looking at 591's raw, there's no mistaking, rayleigh says:
初めに彼をこの方角へ飛ばしたと 飛ばした張本人が教えてくれたのではそのラインに女女島が浮かび上がった
to begin with, it was the perpetrator himself that told me that he sent luffy in this direction and on that line there was the women islandthis should clear any doubts on the fact that kuma himself doesn't choose the destinations for his victims, he can just witness the general direction they take during the "take off"
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
What kind of logic are you using?
Either way you read it, the incident happened two days before. :blink:
"it's a fact that since the day of the accident only 2 day have passed" Don't you see it?
ALso, he flew for just one day. Look at the montage of him flying! Only a night passes, he lands, eats mushroom, is rescued unconscious by Margaret and wakes up the next day (same day Hancock returns and everything else happens in AL).
lets's make an example:
luffy hits the tenryubito and then gets blown away by kuma on monday at around 12.00 –> nyon says that since that day, 2 days have passed (tuesday and wednesday) --> so the day nyon, luffy and the boa sisters are talking is thursday and if it's later than 12.00 than we can really say that more than 72 hrs have passed (i didn't consider the time lapsed from the moment he fell on AL and the time he got invited to the kuja castle)
edit: luffy wakes up the following day? are you sure? oh well, either it worked like this orOda fucked upsentoumaru told a lie -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/521/11/
"Though I find it difficult to understand how after committing this terrible crimeand miraculously from central's most powerful force only two days ago he arrived in such a distant land as this."
ok you have a point here because by looking at that scan that's what everybody would understand;
actually the text doesn't say:"he escaped 2 days ago[…]" but "it's a fact that since the day of the accident only 2 day have passed and now he's standing in this far away place" so, assuming luffy didn't rest for too long after fainting at AL, it's very likely that he really flew for 3 daysMaybe I'm just not understanding you.
Are you saying that, perhaps, subconciously they chose their destinations.
Like Zoro wanted to get stronger, so he was somehow pulled to the place most likely able to help make him stronger?
I can see how this works for people like Zoro, Nami, Franky, Luffy, and possibly Robin and Usopp. Chopper and Brook though, I'm not quite sure.yes, that's how I think kuma's technique works. I don't know about them too, but it's up to Oda to surprise us and come up with a possible satisfactory reason ;-)
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RE: Second Round Discussion Thread
@No:
Whitebeard would like a word with you son .
But can't because he can't see you
I mean I can understand Ace fans nuking Akainu out of the tournament for actualy doing something competent could have ruffled someone's feathers , but Whitebeard fans …...that's like the entiere OP fanbase
i still wonder why wb is so popular.. ok he died an epic death but during the war he was outclassed by every single admiral..and his most powerful attack didn't even do much damage to akainu. Ok i'll stop here , i don't want to troll anymore than that :-)
GO MAKINO!!! -
RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
I've always been under the impression that the destination of Kuma's ability is determined by the affected, and this chapter (translation) just seemed to reaffirm that for me so far.
Is it so unreasonable that he knows what direction he punts people off in? Whether it's through vision or feel or whatever.
same here:happy:, but somehow it looks like a totally illogical explanation to a lot of users in this thread…
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
No, we know Luffy only flew for days. We were told that whoever is sent flying flies for 3, but Luffy stopped early. Why? Because he reached the place he was meant to be. If Kuma just sent them flying in a general direction, why would Luffy have stopped early?
but where did you read that he stopped early?
and rayleigh himself even states this chapter just the direction. Why would Kuma not say quickly hey luffy is on AL and not hey i sent luffy roughly SW
yea that's exactly what I've been trying to say for the past 10 page:-)
and another thing i've been trying to say for quite some page too is that imho while kuma himself doesn't know the destinations of the shs, they are not sent casually to some islands, every destination has still always something to do with the victims, hence sentoumaru's cryptic sentence
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
Luffy only flew for 2 before reaching AL.
That means they all didn't fly the same amount of time. Depending on where they ended up, they could have flown for more or less than 3 days.
The fact that they don't simply fly for 3 days means that they were sent to a certain place.these are not facts, just your speculations, especially the bold part
The translation I know for the line in question is along the lines of: "As for the destination, only the man responsible will know."
that is cnet's translation (aohige seems to agree with him though), while stephen and kikuna992's ones say otherwise (they change the subject of that line)
Or do you think it's coincidence that Luffy ended up on an island where everyone knows haki and is ruled by a warlord?
of course it's not coincidence, but I explained this point various times
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
The biggest case against you is that Zoro and Perona are both in the same place. They both got sent flying from different places, so that's different distances. Zoro ended up there for a reason.
We also know they didn't travel the same speed while flying through the air, because Robin isn't even on the grandline. She's back in East Blue! If just flew in that direction without a preset destination, she never would have made it all the way to the east blue, she'd still be somewhere on the grandline.
Finally, Luffy didn't fly the full 3 days. He only flew 2.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/521/11/
If he was sent flying in a general direction for 3 days, why would he stop early?
Only because he was meant to land there.sentoumaru talked about the 3 days and 3 nights thing in ch 513 too, but I still don't get your point.
i said various time that imo that technique automatically (without kuma himself knowing the destination) throws its victims to the place they intimately need/want to go , making them fly for 3 days and 3 nights. Of course noone would need nor want to land in open sea (lol a fishman maybe).
the fact 2 or more people end up blown away on the same islands is not important (probably oda just wanted to create some funny scenario putting sanji in kamabakka and zoro, the most antisocial of the shs , with the spoiled and noisy perona, while powering them up of course).edit: in the end all it matters is that line of sentoumaru in ch 513: apparently stephen and aohige translated it in the 2 opposite ways; i'd really like aohige to check it over once again and listen to his opinion
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
@Joel:
Yes. And he can know that Luffy was on AL first. Then he uses the line/direction to find AL/Luffy. This is my point.
what line? what direction would he need if he really knew beforehand luffy was at AL. I'm kinda confused
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RE: Chapter 591: "You Sure That's Alright?" Discussion
@Joel:
I interpreted the scene as Kuma told Rayleigh that Luffy was sent to AL. The part where Rayleigh makes an inference for where Luffy could possibly be, as well as a clue from Shakky, is Luffy's whereabouts after the war thus speaking about two different instances and drawing them together for how he reached the conclusion Luffy would be at AL. Maybe Rayleigh mentions "direction" as that is how he knew where to reach AL.
but rayleigh said that on that line lied AL and that's exactly what a direction is, a line. the main proof is in ch 513 though. well, as i said before, i think that with that technique kuma can throw people automatically (unrelated to kuma's will) to some place somehow related to them (in most of the SHs' cases, a place to get stronger)
EDIT: wait, i reread your post and i can't follow you: you are saying that rayleigh made the inference with what he got to know about the marine ship's route taken by hancock to pursue luffy, thus figuring out they would go back to AL? I highly doubt law's submarine was heading for the same direction as AL (it would be a big lucky shot anyway) before being intercepted by hancock so any kind of inference is impossible using the information of the marines