Rifling in One Piece?

[FireFistAce 0]

As you might know, the guns in the One Piece World are flintlocks. They are, technically referred to as "Rifles". But rifle is a generic term used for a long barrel firearm. The question I'm asking is, are the barrels really rifled in One Piece?

As you know, Rifling is process that creates spin on the bullet when it is fired from the bullet. As such, it increases the accuracy and the speed of the bullet, allowing for increased precision in shooting. Now, except for a few people, such as Yasopp, Van Auger, and Usopp, most of the people firing guns have been inaccurate. I mean, look at Cricket. He fired a pistol at Sanji at point-blank and still missed. Whether that was in part to the inaccuracy of the weapon or Sanji's inhuman speed is debatable, but the fact remains that the bullet missed.

Van Auger's sharpshooter weapon is actually a musket. Look at the gun he's carrying. It's a long barrel musket, which was the sharpshooter's weapon before rifling was invented. It has a modified scope on it, and he has a scope on his glasses as well.

So, what do you think? Rifled barrels or non-rifled barrels? Discuss.

Btw, this should go in the manga section because Anime filler like Daddy the Father kind of destroys the image of this.

[Skymo]

Well Luffy uses a Rifle efect he must be the only one close to a rifle!

[Fat Tony the Chopper]

You know this is One Piece right? I'd be surprised if Oda even concerned himself with such niggling details concerning his work. Might as well try to figure out the exact gravitational constant of One Piece's planet while we're at it.

[FireFistAce 0]

It's a valid question.

Oda states in an SBS they're flintlocks. That can be taken to mean the barrels are not "Rifled". And yes, it is significant. On top of that, the bullets they use are not slugs, they're pellets. What did Chopper pull out of the bird that Auger shot? pellets. Iron pellets. Modern bullets are called slugs, and they're cone shaped.

Yes, this is a manga, and yes, suspension of disbelief and all, but the difference between rifling and non-rifling is astronomical.

[Zephos]

@Fire Fist:

It's a valid question.

Oda states in an SBS they're flintlocks. That can be taken to mean the barrels are not "Rifled". And yes, it is significant. On top of that, the bullets they use are not slugs, they're pellets. What did Chopper pull out of the bird that Auger shot? pellets. Iron pellets. Modern bullets are called slugs, and they're cone shaped.

Yes, this is a manga, and yes, suspension of disbelief and all, but the difference between rifling and non-rifling is astronomical.

Bazookas, rocket launchers, and sniper rifles have already shown up.
Its not really all that valid…

[FireFistAce 0]

Okay, where have you seen a Sniper Rifle other than Van Auger? The marines don't have snipers waiting around with giant sniper rifles. Van Auger's rifle is a musket, if you look at the end of it. Rounded tip.

Bazookas and missle launchers are not rifled. They launch missles or incendiaries (Grenades, napalam, etc.), not bullets. And Skypeia technology doesn't count anyway, because it all uses dials.

[gain]

i THINK i've seen a spiraling effect from the bullets in the anime when they are flying through the air, but as far as i can tell, in the manga, when they hit luffy at least, they seem like they are shot from unrifled guns,…

EVEN in the anime, when the bullets hit luffy, there doesn't seem to be a twisting of his skin... ofcourse, i don't have access to eps at the moment to verify :(

i would also assume, since machines aren't as prevelant in the OP universe, that the quality of rifle/gun production wouldn't be anywhere as congruent to the quality of rifled guns IRL... that would explain the lack of accuracy... if the production is primitave/shoddy, the bullets will yaw and wouldn't be very reliable....

i really don't know much at all about rifling or guns in general, jus sharin my observations

[Pipboy]

Flintlock is a firing mechanism, rifiling refers directly to the spiralled grooves inside og the barrel. In truth though the weapons might have a characteristic bell shaped barrel of an unrifled weapon, the internal workings might be all the same.

HOWEVER, the cannons onboard the buster call are certainly characteristic of cannons from the late 1930's early 1940s, circa WWII, and even if they fire rounded shells, which they do, they can still be rifled as the shape of the bullet, baring excessively shoddy production quality is immaterial to rifling, and would be given their power and accuracy.

It should also be noted that some of out more advanced sniper rifles no longer use rifling. Specifically those with APFSDS bullets.

[Walker]

A non rifled weapon would still not be as inacurate to miss a pointblank shot. If im not mistaken in the civil war the rifles werent rifled (or whatever the term for it is). Dont quote me on that but I think I heard that.

But from the distance Sanji was at it would be no different from firing a weapon from today.

However, alot of the time many people have missed with their guns so I wouldnt doubt what your getting at. Seems possible.

[Zephos]

@Fire Fist:

Okay, where have you seen a Sniper Rifle other than Van Auger? The marines don't have snipers waiting around with giant sniper rifles. Van Auger's rifle is a musket, if you look at the end of it. Rounded tip.

Bazookas and missle launchers are not rifled. They launch missles or incendiaries (Grenades, napalam, etc.), not bullets. And Skypeia technology doesn't count anyway, because it all uses dials.

http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-3/volume11.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2232

All those guys hanging out with Smoker have them.
Bazookas and so forth are a sign of weapon technoloy being all over the place, as to prove oda isn't carefully plotting technologial advancment.

[dlo62282]

Well one thing, isnt a muskeet an older version of a rifle? All rifles didnt have cone shaped bullets. They can still be rifled even the iron pellets.

[FireFistAce 0]

@Zephos:

http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-3/volume11.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2232

All those guys hanging out with Smoker have them.
Bazookas and so forth are a sign of weapon technoloy being all over the place, as to prove oda isn't carefully plotting technologial advancment.

Uh, sorry, those are regular rifles/long barrel firearms. No scopes.

And like I said, the Bazookas are Skypeian technology. Dials, if you will. So they don't count.

And Dlo, ALL bullets that go through rifled barrels are slugs, and are cone shaped. BB guns, Paintball guns, and the like aren't rifled because there's no need for the high level of precision.

Muskets used iron pellets that were fed into the barrel of the gun. First wadding was placed in to secure the gunpowder. Then the gunpowder was forced into the barrel with a loading rod. Then the actual pellet was put in last. When the trigger was pulled, the flint struck the flashpan and created a spark, which ignited the wadding. The wadding in turn lit the gunpowder, which exploded and forced the bullet from the barrel.

With Rifling, the bullet was loaded in a magazine, which slid somewhere into the back of the gun, usually the handle. The actual "Bullet" is the head of the slug. The body of the slug is a metal casing holding the gunpowder. When the trigger is pulled, the bullet is struck and the gunpowder is ignited inside the slug, which propels the gun forward.

When the barrel is rifled, it creates a spin on the bullet. this stabilizes it and decreases the natural yaw that occurs from gravity. Thus, it's more accurate and flies further. If the bullet is oddly shaped (spherical included), then it will not take full advantage of the rifling process.

So to answer your question, No, muskets are not rifles. They're the predecessors to rifles.

[GearSecond]

It seems some Marines have rifled rifles. I can certainly say, the way it looked in the Anime the first few episodes especially, seemed to be very accurate down to a few inches and appeared to created a small spiral.

Some might be, some might not be. It really doesn't matter too much, and I doubt it'll be a plot point in the future, since a single gun, except maybe Van Auge's and Yassop's would have any effect on the story(movies don't count, or fillers). If the gun mis-fires, it doesn't mean it's not rifles, if it is accurate, doesn't mean it is. Truth be told, at the point of the Gun's technology, excluding Skypeian stuff, which shoot alot more like modern-day stuff, everything can mis-fire or be accurate, based on chance. Try to avoid using Yassop, Usopp or Van Auge for reference. THey are obviously special cases. Same with Daddy the Father.

[dlo62282]

No it is not all, and even now it days it is not all.

The original muzzle-loading rifle, on the other hand, with a closely fitting ball to take the rifling grooves, was loaded with difficulty, particularly when foul, and for this reason was not generally used for military purposes. Even with the advent of rifling the bullet itself didn't change, but was wrapped in a cloth patch to grip the rifling grooves.

The first half of the nineteenth century saw a distinct change in the shape and function of the bullet. In 1826 Delirque, a French infantry officer, invented a breech with abrupt shoulders on which a spherical bullet was rammed down until it caught the rifling grooves. Delirque's method, however, deformed the bullet and was inaccurate.

They changed the bullets shape to make the rifle more accurate but they used spherical bullets at first.

[FireFistAce 0]

Very Valid point.

But the real question is of the rifling itself. The guns we've seen so far except from Van Auge, Usopp and Yasopp are very inaccurate. We KNOW for a fact that the bullets are iron pellets, not slugs. As such, we thus also know that the barrels are loaded the old fashioned way: Wadding, powder, bullet. Because an iron pellet cannot hold gunpowder inside it. If it did, it would explode inside the barrel.

[Baka_Neko]

Wikipedia

A rifle is a firearm with a stock and a barrel that has a spiral groove or grooves ("rifling") cut into its interior. The rifling produces "lands," areas that make contact with the projectile (usually a bullet), imparting spin around an axis corresponding to the orientation of the weapon. When the projectile leaves the barrel, the conservation of angular momentum improves its accuracy and range, in the same way that a properly thrown American football or rugby ball behaves. The word "rifle" originally referred to the grooving, and a rifle was called a "rifled gun."

Originally, rifles were sharpshooter weapons, while the regular infantry made use of the greater firepower of massed muskets, which fired round musket balls of calibers up to 0.75 inch (19 mm). Benjamin Robins, an English mathematician, realized that an extruded bullet would retain the mass and kinetic force of a musket ball, but would slice through the air with much greater ease. The innovative work of Robins and others would take until the end of the 18th century to gain acceptance.
By the mid-19th century, however, manufacturing had advanced sufficiently that the musket was replaced by a range of rifles—generally single-shot, breech-loading—designed for aimed, discretionary fire by individual soldiers. Then as now, rifles had a stock, either fixed or folding, to be braced against the shoulder when firing. Until the early 20th century rifles tended to be very long—an 1890 Martini-Henry was almost six feet (1.8 m) in length with a fixed bayonet. The demand for more compact weapons for cavalrymen led to the carbine, or shortened rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle

[FireFistAce 0]

Yes, Dumb Cat, we know what a rifle is.

The One Piece weapons are CALLED rifles, but my argument is that they're using a general term for a long-barreled firearm.

When Luffy does Gomu Gomu no Rifle, he "Rifles" his arm by twisting it, creating the same spin effect that the rifling of a barrel does. Whenever a bullet hits luffy or anyone else, the bullet does not carry the spiral effect that his Gomu Gomu no Rifle or any normal rifled firearm does. It doesn't twist into them, it goes directly in, or in Luffy's case, ricochets.

[gnomey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle
http://science.howstuffworks.com/flintlock2.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/flintlock3.htm

"Some flintlock hunting arms had rifled barrels. Rifling is the process of cutting spiral grooves into the inside of the barrel. A tight-fitting projectile will tend to spin, which stabilizes its flight by the gyroscopic principle. Rifles are more accurate and have longer effective ranges than muskets but they take more time to load than a smooth-bore musket. The first rifled arms were introduced about 1500. Versions made in Germany for hunting large game such as boar had barrels about 20-30 inches long. When German immigrants settled in America, particularly in Pennsylvania, they adapted their technology to the type of game available and the demands of the Indian trade, and built the long rifle, an improvement on the small game rifles used in Europe. This weapon has a barrel 36 to 45 inches long, and carefully loaded and shot, will be accurate up to 300 yards. Flintlock pistols were used as self-defense weapons and for duelling, and as a cavalry arm. Their effective range was very short, and they were frequently used as an adjunct to the sword or cutlass. Pistols were usually smoothbore although rifled pistols were produced."

"Various breech-loading flintlocks were developed starting around 1650. The most popular action has a barrel which was unscrewed from the rest of the gun. Obviously this is more practical on pistols because of the shorter barrel length. This type is known as a Queen Anne pistol because it was during her reign that it became popular "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock

Frankly, all we know is the firing mechanism (flint-lock). That is, how the gunpowder is ignighted. We don't know if it is a breech or muzzle loader, Minie ball or actual ball, or much else. So, sure there could be some rifling on their guns. I assume a lot of suspension of disbelief is neccessary, as most people couldn't see an ant at a distance, much less shoot one with a pistol (as Yassop claims). However, we've seen some extremely talented craftsmen within the series, and the thought that some would possess the skill to create effective rifling isn't too far fetched. However, that the whole of the marines would have them? Doubtful. And Usopp with a gun? Last I checked he's stuck pretty solidly with slingshot-type weapons.

Btw, don't forget pellet guns! They push a Minie ball style'd pellet down a rifled barrel…. and BB guns are accurate. So are Paintball guns. Ever see a competition? The rifling just doesn't lend itself to a spherical object, which would usually muster its own spin.

[Zulen]

"Fire Fist" Ace, where do you find the time to do this research?

[gnomey]

As long as we're being picky… if they are rifled barrels, we can assume a Minie ball projectile. That's piercing damage. That's a point with a spiral motion. It pokes and tears, albeit at high speed. Last I remember, pokey things definitely get through Luffy's rubber.

[gnomey]

And finally, Van Auger actually has a blunderbuss. Its kinda like the predeccessor to a shotgun, and you could stuff just about whatever you wanted down that wide barrel.
from Wikipedia as well:
"By its nature, the blunderbuss is not a very precise weapon. Although it was sometimes used in a military setting, it was more effective when the goal was not to hit a specific target, but rather any one of multiple targets, such as for crowd control. During combat, the blunderbuss was a very unpredictable weapon; it could hit an entire group of enemy soldiers or miss all of them. The blunderbuss thus became a byword for inaccurate marksmanship in any field. As well, the word itself came to mean "a clumsy or stupid person"."

Musket refers to muzzleloading rifles.

[Ubiq]

Most weapons in One Piece seem to be smoothbore and are not rifles by default. If nothing else, bullets do not seem to impart a spin to Luffy's body on impact.

One of the clearest instances that we see of a projectile in transmit is during the Mr. 4 fight. Lassoo's timebombs do not have a rotation indicating rifling. However, he is capable of lobbing a curveball, so he may be able to duplicate a rifling effect, possibly with his tongue. His default firing is that of a smoothbore however.

@Fire Fist:

We KNOW for a fact that the bullets are iron pellets, not slugs.

Uh, no, we don't know that as the weapons we see in One Piece fire musketballs, not pellets. Pellets (when speaking of the particular ammunition type) are not spherical unless you're speaking of shot, which is considerably smaller and fired in large bursts to create maximum impact.

Also, a slug is typically a solid shell designed to be fired by a smoothbore shotgun. Some of them are rifled to create a spinning, but they're still designed to be fired by a smoothbore gun. However, the term can be used for any solid projectile, which includes musketballs. Don't create distinctions where none truly exist.

As such, we thus also know that the barrels are loaded the old fashioned way: Wadding, powder, bullet. Because an iron pellet cannot hold gunpowder inside it. If it did, it would explode inside the barrel.

They wouldn't have to be loaded that way actually, as paper cartridges for muskets did exist that allowed for wadding, powder, and paper to all be loaded at the same time as a single unit.

[Baka_Neko]

oh. whatever. here, I found a picture of a cannon in the anime. The second I saw it, I knew i should show you. This cannon, which is used by the marines, is rifled. Of course, that doesn't mean their "rifles" are.

I also snapped a pic of the rifles.

The ones the marines use are flintlock muzzle loaders with no rifling. The grip isn't very big. It's a wonder these guys can hit anything at all. Not only does it take a while to load, the "bell" at the end, and the lack of rifling would decrease accuracy. The grip is pretty small, so it would be difficult to handle properly, which would also decrease accuracy.

Perhaps these are just ment for shortrange combat, not as long range as true rifles. If you may have noticed, whenever I see muskettes and guns like these used, it's not the sniper position. It's pretty much just a bigger, clumsier pistol.

As for what Van Auger uses, he seems to use a blunderbuss rifle (yes, rifle). A blunderbuss isn't what I'd call accurate, but it is one of the more deadlier of older guns. A blunderbuss pistol would clear the deck pretty quickly back in the day. However, the rifles had a pretty nasty kick to them, so you'd have to really steady yourself and hold the gun by your hip, or somewhere else that can take the kick.

http://netlinkenterprises.com/prodimages/22-1053G.jpg

Most blunderbuss's's are pretty big. Even the pistols. But, because of the bell-like barrel, it would be hard to use as a sniper weapon.

Of course, that bell on Auger's rifle might be there to only help with muzzle-loading. It would make loading easier.

Crickets gun is just a flint-lock, muzzle-loaded pistol. It didn't have rifling. That, combined with Sanji's speed would make him miss. From what I've noticed, most of the guns in One Piece aren't rifled, but some of the cannons are. There may be some rifled gun, but probably only on long-range guns.

Perhaps the main word used when talking about firearms in One Piece is "Juuhou" (which I have heard a few times, actually), which translates to "gun/firearm". Now, a long-barreled firearm, despite it being rifled or not, may be called a rifle by someone who doesn't know better. If someone translates something, and they come across "Juuhou!" and they see longbarreled firearms, they may just translate is as "rifle". The few things that have been called "Pistol" "Shotgun" and "Rifle" had the proper mechanics behind them (Luffy's attacks).

So, like in our world, the long-range shooters use rifles, the foot-soldiers use shotguns, some use pistols, and the cannons depend on what the cannon is meant for.

[Ajiro]

Why in the hell does it matter?

[Baka_Neko]

@Ajiro:

Why in the hell does it matter?

Personally, I don't think it matters at all. XD

[Ajiro]

Jeez, it's like asking why Shanks had a straw hat instead of a silk one.

[Ubiq]

@Baka_Neko:

oh. whatever. here, I found a picture of a cannon in the anime. The second I saw it, I knew i should show you. This cannon, which is used by the marines, is rifled. Of course, that doesn't mean their "rifles" are.

Which arc was that shot from coincidentally?

If it was a filler arc, then it's not really admissible as evidence. Otherwise, we could check to see if Oda drew a similar scene and see how the images compare.

In the one instance I can think of where we've clearly seen the inside of a cannon (which would be the cannon Zoro sliced in half at the Franky House), the image showed a smoothbore. We see into Baroque Works' doomsday gun as well and it isn't rifled, but it's probably a mortar rather than an actual cannon.

Usopp also comments on a demi-culverin during their initial visit to Dock 1, which is most likely a smoothbore gun. If Galley-La uses such weapons in their ships, then it can be reasonably assumed that they are one of the better weapons available. If rifled guns were available, then Galley-La would use them instead as rifled guns easily render smoothbores obsolete.

Perhaps these are just ment for shortrange combat, not as long range as true rifles.

Pretty much; seeing as how they're Marines, they're most likely going to fight at extremely short range: ship-to-ship or hand-to-hand. The only instance I can think of where we saw them snipe from long distance was when they used some sort of explosive shell at Enies Lobby and that was likely from a demi-cannon or bazooka.

Marines always form a line when firing at a target anyway, so volley-fire is going to compensate for the lack of accuracy. If that's the goal, then the average Marine don't really need long-ranged guns.

As for what Van Auger uses, he seems to use a blunderbuss rifle (yes, rifle).

Actually, it appears to be either a matchlock or a combination matchlock and wheel lock musket (unless the wheel adjusts the sights somehow), either of which would actually make it a museum piece by Odaverse standards. It'd be a bitch to aim with any accuracy, heavy as hell to lug around, and would also be a complete hassle once fired thanks to the difficulty of preparing for the next shot (especially the wheel lock).

[Baka_Neko]

@Ubiq:

Which arc was that shot from coincidentally?

If it was a filler arc, then it's not really admissible as evidence. Otherwise, we could check to see if Oda drew a similar scene and see how the images compare.

Oh man, I didn't think of that. XD Sorry. I was reviewing G8 for shits and giggles. Sorry. XD

@Ubiq:

In the one instance I can think of where we've clearly seen the inside of a cannon (which would be the cannon Zoro sliced in half at the Franky House), the image showed a smoothbore. We see into Baroque Works' doomsday gun as well and it isn't rifled, but it's probably a mortar rather than an actual cannon.

Well, perhaps. Since they are so close to Enies, they probably are up to date with whatever the marines have…and I believe the marines are probably the leaders when it comes to inventions (Begabank, or whatever his name is). So, I guess if the marines don't have rifled cannons, the rest of the world doesn't. But, again....they don't make all cannon's the same. If rifling does exist in the OP-verse (it should, since Luffy knows of it) it might only be for very long distance cannons. Short-range cannons (blasting at another ship as you sail by) probably wouldn't need rifling. Also, some cannons and guns are meant for scatter shots (if they don't just use a big cannonball), which would make rifling pointless. Hmmmmmmmmm....Maybe I'm over thinking this.

@Ubiq:

Usopp also comments on a demi-culverin during their initial visit to Dock 1, which is most likely a smoothbore gun. If Galley-La uses such weapons in their ships, then it can be reasonably assumed that they are one of the better weapons available. If rifled guns were available, then Galley-La would use them instead as rifled guns easily render smoothbores obsolete.

Well, rifling isn't always better. Weapons meant for closer range wouldn't need it. If a cannon is made and they don't need it to be accurate (spot on), then they don't need the rifling. If they are going for brute force with cannonball that just needs to land "over there somewhere"…well...hm.

@Ubiq:

Marines always form a line when firing at a target anyway, so volley-fire is going to compensate for the lack of accuracy. If that's the goal, then the average Marine don't really need long-ranged guns.

Only Marines with specific roles such as "Sniper", "Sharpshooter" or "Designated Marksman" would need longdistance/semi-longdistance firearms. The Sharpshooters are the ones that do the long, timed shots to valued targets instead of the main infantry that just goes for more damage. I believe I've seen marines in One Piece take up the Sharpshooter role. Snipers are mostly ment for psychological warfare and to add some more reach. The DM is there for rapid, accurate fire (for the military today, about 500 meters, not as far as a Sniper, but still good). Their weapons share characteristics with both sniper rifles (telescopic sight, powerful cartridge) and assult rifles (semi-automatic as opposed to bolt-action, standard magazine capacity). Of course, they can always just modify already existing battle and assult rifles. Do a search for these terms if you don't know them, and for more info.

@Ubiq:

Actually, it appears to be either a matchlock or a combination matchlock and wheel lock musket (unless the wheel adjusts the sights somehow), either of which would actually make it a museum piece by Odaverse standards. It'd be a bitch to aim with any accuracy, heavy as hell to lug around, and would also be a complete hassle once fired thanks to the difficulty of preparing for the next shot (especially the wheel lock).

Yeah, it looks like a matchlock. Yeah. Most certainly. I only said blunderbuss because of the cone (makes me think of this: http://netlinkenterprises.com/prodimages/22-1053G.jpg just with a scope and a lot bigger). Due to the insane power in a blunderbuss, it was a feared weapon back in our pirating days. Ha ha. They'd toss anything into the barrel and shoot it if they ran out of bullets, ha ha! Oh, those crazy pirates. I wish for a new pirating era to start up. ^^