Doctor Who

[Robby]

@Nobodyman:

! One thing that kinda bothers me though, why couldn't he just tell River the plan in the first place? I mean, I know he was trying to make everyone think he was dead, but you'd think he could trust at least her to keep a secret (but then she did go blabbing it to Amy and Rory, so…..) Anywho...

Wibbly wobbly, reverse timelines He couldn't tell her before she was captured and put in the suit, and that moment was his first opportunity after.

! Things ALWAYS worked that way. It was always the robot on the beach, even the first time, we ust didn't know it yet. And pretty much every River we've met since then (aside from LKH) has been in on it and has known the trick. She's in prison, but she knows full well she didn't kill the Doctor. It's acting. Its all part of the act to convince the universe the Doctor is dead. But she gets to come and go as she pleases basically (never any problem breaking out) and explains why she doesn't seem more guilty or troubled every time we meet her. And eventually she gets pardoned. Stormcage is just for show.
! Its probably also part of the reason she has a few adventures backwards. (Its never been exactly reverse order, otherwise there'd be no point in keeping a diary… but theres a few adventures where she has to go follow up on the lie and drop a few hints and consistencies in the past.) The season 5 and 6 adventures at least were all intentionally after this one to give credence to the lie... but River knows full well they are her final adventures with the Doctor... since they're everyone else's firsts with her.
! Next season River and Doctor might follow more of a consistent straight path, but it doesn't matter so much at this point, since we have the start and end points nailed down... the middle could be in whatever order for them.
! Also, it does make one wonder about the Silence in the Library... did River really die there? I'd hate hate HATE for them to get around that, so much tragedy and poetry built into that death scene, but...
! Plus explains why when we had the cameo from Amy and Rory at the mall last episode they weren't in any rush to go to the lake to fix things, even though that was the next day.

One thing that I think is really interesting is, we're getting River's story mostly backwards, and the Doctor has a bit of a loop in his… )especially last season where he revisited a bunch of events) but Amy and Rory is basically the perspective we're consistently following as the through line.

[Nobodyman]

@RobbyBevard:

Wibbly wobbly, reverse timelines He couldn't tell her before she was captured and put in the suit, and that moment was his first opportunity after.

Umm, are we on the same page here? I'm talking about when they were in the alternate reality and River didn't want the two of them to touch so the Doctor wouldn't die. Then the Doctor told her to look into his eye.

[Darkstorm]

@RobbyBevard:

Well, there's playing fair with the audience, and there's doing twists for the sake of doing twists. Sometimes, a resolution being signposted in advance with all the clues and pieces on the table before you get there means… the writer is doing everything right.

Well I knew someone was going to guess correctly about the how, since with as many fans as who has, someone is going to follow the clues and get it right, that's fine. But I went into this expecting something clever that would be obvious after the fact, but instead got something that was obvious to pretty much everyone before the fact.

[Cyber-Robin]

I think the problem was the fact that they used the Tessla scenes from the Hitler episode on the recap bit. Maybe if they threw in some red herrings like Ganger Doctor etc it would have helped. But even the 'How can we help you?' and then not appearing for most of the rest of the episode had alarm bells ringing

[Robby]

@Nobodyman:

Umm, are we on the same page here? I'm talking about when they were in the alternate reality and River didn't want the two of them to touch so the Doctor wouldn't die. Then the Doctor told her to look into his eye.

Oh, you just mean in the episode, not the season?

Well again, same idea…

! when would he have the chance prior to the moment he did? Not prior to her being captured and being in the suit, and in the alternate reality would he do it in a room full of silents, cameras, and crazy electronic eye patches?
! He told her when they were alone-ish and after all the eyepatches were off… in a whisper. Not even letting Amy and Rory know at the time. The more people that know a secret, the harder it is to keep. Not entirely sure why they couldn't be let in on it then, but I guess you don't just go saying "none of you worry, this is a robot" very lously while still on top of the Area 52 pyramid.
! Tho theres still the question of what he whispered to her in LKH to make her trust him so quickly...

@Darkstorm:

Well I knew someone was going to guess correctly about the how, since with as many fans as who has, someone is going to follow the clues and get it right, that's fine. But I went into this expecting something clever that would be obvious after the fact, but instead got something that was obvious to pretty much everyone before the fact.

Well again, nearly every single episode this season provided an out practically. Silence memory blanking, black spot teleporting nurse, ganger, shape changing robot, divergant timelines, hotel hologram, good old fashioned paradox… let alone possibilities from the series' past including alternate realities and a doctor from behind the cracks and the whole red/blue bowtie conspiracy theory.

For me at least, by the time they got to the rebel flesh, it was no longer about the how, there were a whole mess of possibilities that were handed out like candy all season, any of them would be fine and all were set up significantly in advance to not be a cheat. But of course it was going to be that solution out of the dozen presented..

! because its the episode Moffat wrote.

It was always about why he was going to that point and what it had to do with the little regenerating girl that was the real mystery, and thats what the season mostly focused on.

@Cyber-Robin:

I think the problem was the recap bit.

Yeah.. ."previously on" recaps serve the purpose of reminding an audience or cluing in those that have missed episodes… but that one really gave it away. There was an episode of Gargoyles that had the same problem, where there was a "whodunnit" mystery for the entire first act, but the "previously on" recap had already revealed Macbeth would be in the episode...

I wonder, would this season have felt differently if the five Mofatt episodes (plus Closing Time, I suppose) had all simply been in the second half of the season and we'd gotten all six in a rapid row as a big multi-parter, instead of spread throughout the season (and 9 months with the break) with all the standalone episodes in a seperate clump at the start?

[Nobodyman]

@RobbyBevard:

Oh, you just mean in the episode, not the season?

Well again, same idea…

! when would he have the chance prior to the moment he did? Not prior to her being captured and being in the suit, and in the alternate reality would he do it in a room full of silents, cameras, and crazy electronic eye patches?
! He told her when they were alone-ish and after all the eyepatches were off… in a whisper. Not even letting Amy and Rory know at the time. The more people that know a secret, the harder it is to keep. Not entirely sure why they couldn't be let in on it then, but I guess you don't just go saying "none of you worry, this is a robot" very lously while still on top of the Area 52 pyramid.
! Tho theres still the question of what he whispered to her in LKH to make her trust him so quickly...

! Two things:
! 1. That was all an alternate reality, so I don't think anyone would've remembered anything The Doctor said or did during that time.
! 2. Assuming The Doctor wanted to be extra cautious on the off chance someone was able to document or remember events from the alternate reality as Amy did, at the very least, he could have told River just as soon as they were on the roof of the pyramid, and not after they had done that huge dialogue.

[Robby]

@Nobodyman:

! Two things:
! 1. That was all an alternate reality, so I don't think anyone would've remembered anything The Doctor said or did during that time.
! 2. Assuming The Doctor wanted to be extra cautious on the off chance someone was able to document or remember events from the alternate reality as Amy did, at the very least, he could have told River just as soon as they were on the roof of the pyramid, and not after they had done that huge dialogue.

! 1. Time travelers are anomolies, and they remember stuff, even when it no longer ever happened, or when it happened differently. Been seen in many ocassions in the past. Especially "grew up next to a crack in the universe" Amy… as seen at the end of the episode. She remembers killing Kovarian, even if that now technically never happened. Similarly, Kovarian is now still alive, and a timetraveler, so she might still remember being killed, for instance.
! Rory... something different entirely is going on with Rory, but at least they've specifically addressed that its intentional now and not just overlapping writers going for the same easy drama of him dying constantly. (ANd given that Rory has been making jokes about it and Mofatt swears there is something behind that...)
! Any event, not knowing in advance how it was going to work out exactly and who or what might be watching and remembering even after the reality collapsed... still for the best to not shout out "Oh yes, I'm about to pull a fast one on you all, it'll be great!"
! 2. He was hoping to just convince her and not have to give the secret away at all. She needed the extra prompt of "Look see, i'm already ahead of this, it's covered, its not what you thought it was. Trust me, I'm the doctor."
! Plus, more dramatic that way... and fully earning her trust with the ceremony. Its still a much younger River that's probably only met him the once before then in LKH, (and studied him a lot)... I think. I guess she could have had more encounters while studying, but this seems to be an early River yet.

[SympathyX]

Holy jesus

https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.drwho/browse_thread/thread/7cd734f99a62ae98/c845f05e9b213df9?lnk=st&q&hl=en&pli=1#c845f05e9b213df9

[Robby]

@SympathyX:

Holy jesus

https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.drwho/browse_thread/thread/7cd734f99a62ae98/c845f05e9b213df9?lnk=st&q&hl=en&pli=1#c845f05e9b213df9

Yeah, that was discovered a couple months ago. Pretty crazy that Moffat was posting random theories on the interweb as a fan 17 years ago, then brought it through to fruition.

It would be like writing Gargoyles fanfic and then getting to create Brooklyn's wife under the guidance of the show's creator 15 years after the show went off the air. Not that I'd know anything about that…

Fandom of yesterday grows up to become the professionals of tomorrow. Its always kind of neat how that works.

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

It would be like writing Gargoyles fanfic and then getting to create Brooklyn's wife under the guidance of the show's creator 15 years after the show went off the air. Not that I'd know anything about that…

What the hell does any of that even mean?

What the fuck is Gargoyles?

[Robby]

@SympathyX:

What the fuck is Gargoyles?

One of, if not the, greatest animated shows ever made. I'm really surprised you've never heard of it.

Aired in 1994, when I was 12 years old.

In 2009, 15 years later, at age 27, I got to professionally work on the comic book with the series' creator.

While the Mofatt thing is crazy for actually being found, its pretty common. Back when comics and magazines had letters pages, you would often find letters from young fans, that 10 or 15 years later, would go on to be pros, and work on the very projects they loved as a kid (assuming its a franchise that actually lasts that long in some form.)

Hell, Doctor Who is 48 years old. Most of the people working on the show weren't even born when it started. By default they'd have to grow up on it. ANd most of them were drawn towards the job, and auditioning and trying out for it, because they were fans to begin with.

Heck, pretty much the entire current lineup of Shonen Jump is done by creators that grew up on Dragonball and are now doing their own takes on Shonen Battle manga as inspired by DB, especially OP.

[Oga Simpson]

I just came to this thread 'cos I was bored, I saw Gargoyles being mentioned. Mmmm nostalgia. I loved that show, watched it all the time when I was a young 'un. That's pretty damn cool that you got to work with the creator Robby. Altough I was only born in 1993 so I must have been really young when I saw it.

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

One of, if not the, greatest animated shows ever made. I'm really surprised you've never heard of it.

Aired in 1994, when I was 12 years old.

I would only have been six. Must have not aired too much over here.

In 2009, 15 years later, at age 27, I got to professionally work on the comic book with the series' creator.

Nice one.

While the Mofatt thing is crazy for actually being found, its pretty common. Back when comics and magazines had letters pages, you would often find letters from young fans, that 10 or 15 years later, would go on to be pros, and work on the very projects they loved as a kid (assuming its a franchise that actually lasts that long in some form.)

A lot of new series writers did books back in the nineties and 2000s actually

[Cyber-Robin]

Gargoyles aired here on Diggit which was Sat mornings or something. I remember it kinda. Whatsherface hosted it. Fern Cotton or whatever her name is.

[SympathyX]

Diggit, bloody hell that takes me back

[Mr. Zoro]

Just saw the episode, and I thought it was fantastic. I'll re-watch it again sometime, just to clear up a few bits I'm lost on.

One thing that I'm not buying into, though…

! So, all of history is happening at once because the Doctor is alive, so the Doctor needs to die in order for it to become normal… so he tricks all of history and time and space with a robot that looks like him? He's still alive in the Tesselecta, so if he REALLY needed to die in order for time to continue, then things wouldn't have been patched up since he was still alive.
! At a glance, whatever natural power (within the settings of the show, of course) dictates the flow of time and history, a thing of nature, to be exact, was fooled into believing that the robot was the real Doctor.
! It's kind of like if my existence was the reason there's tornados in Canada and earthquakes in Iowa and Snow in Africa, and the only way weather will go back to normal is if I die, and then I have the tesselecta look like me and then die, and now nature seems to have thought that the tesselecta was actually me and decides to act normal now.
Kinda see where I'm coming from?

Unless I'm missing something, I have troubles with that one.

But other than that, great episode. Can't wait for the Christmas special and Season 7… Smith himself said the first 2 episodes are gonna be crazy. (wish I'd find the source...)

[Robby]

@Mr.:

Just saw the episode, and I thought it was fantastic. I'll re-watch it again sometime, just to clear up a few bits I'm lost on.

One thing that I'm not buying into, though…

! So, all of history is happening at once because the Doctor is alive, so the Doctor needs to die in order for it to become normal… so he tricks all of history and time and space with a robot that looks like him? He's still alive in the Tesselecta, so if he REALLY needed to die in order for time to continue, then things wouldn't have been patched up since he was still alive.

! Its NOT important that "The Doctor must die." The universe doesn't care about that.
! It IS important that the aggressive scary warrior doctor whose name is synonymous with death and destruction who is feared by all needs to stop being a visible public monster that unites entire centuries of armies against him.
! The doctor's death isn't the fixed point… the doctor's alibi is.
! Being left alone, changing his ways and going back into relative anonymity. That was the entire point of A Good Man Goes to War. Think of how many times in the last few years he's basically just strutted into a room and said "Hey look, I'm the Doctor. Do you really want to mess with me?" and that by itself was the entire resolution that got the enemy to leave? The Library, Prisoner Zero, and he made the speech in the Pandoricia off the top of my head.
! Let alone all the season finales where he's moved planets and blown up fleets and killed the entire race of Timelords and such.
! (Its actually very similar to how the Doctor could have destroyed all Daleks forever at one point in Genesis of the Daleks, but ultimately couldn't bring himself to do it because of the ramifications that would have on all of history.)
! Not to mention how much pain and suffering being that visible has brought to his friends? They get targetted now too, because he's so feared. Everything Amy has gone through has been a result of the Doctor being a public menace. The more annonymous earlier Doctor never subjected Jo Grant or Sarah Jane to these sorts of things event hough they went on exactly the same sorts of adventures of fun and wackiness throughout time and space.
! Also, he was always in the Tesselecta. Even the first time we saw events. The fixed point was always the robot faking his death and then went into hiding. That never changed, just our knowledge of the facts about it.
! It was River NOT giving him the public alibi that split the timestream, not the Doctor living

[Mr. Zoro]

@RobbyBevard:

No.

! The agressive scary warrior doctor feared by all needs to die, and has to do so publically. That was the entire point of A Good Man Goes to War. Think of how many times in the last few years he's basically just strutted into a room and said "Hey look, I'm the Doctor. Do you really want to mess with me?" and that by itself was the entire resolution that got the enemy to leave? The Library, Prisoner Zero, and the Pandoricia off the top of my head.
! Let alone all the season finales where he's moved planets and blown up fleets and killed the entire race of Timelords and such.
! All of history needs to THINK the Doctor is dead, and he needs to stop being a great big threat that the entire universe fears, causing entire armadas of Daleks and Cybermen and Salurians and Silence and whatever else to keep uniting to try and destroy him.
! Its not so much the ramifications of the one fixed point event itself, its everything that comes after as a result of it. If the universe thinks the doctor is alive, they keep assembling giant armadas and forming coalitions of horror in the name of stopping him. If the universe thinks he's dead, he's free to go about his work.
! Also, he was always in the Tesselecta. Even the first time we saw events. He ALWAYS faked his death and then went into hiding. It was River NOT giving him the public event that split the course of events.

Ahhh ok, for some reason

! I thought time had recorded that it was the ACTUAL Doctor that had died. Whoops.
! And I KNOW the feared doctor has to die and the other aliens need acknowledge that ( I did watch A Good Man Goes To War and this latest one, y'know…), I was just confused for a bit because I thought it was the actual Doctor and not the Tesslecta the first time around.
! Although it does make me wonder, what exactly is the Doctor going to do if he's planning on being in the shadow for a while? He'd have to stay out of the way for many of the aliens out there, because if one sees him, they'll most likely spread the news that he's alive.
! Which I don't doubt will happen eventually, but he said he wanted to stay out of sight for a while.

[Robby]

@Mr.:

Ahhh ok, for some reason

! I thought time had recorded that it was the ACTUAL Doctor that had died. Whoops.

! Thats exactly what the entire point of it all was. That PEOPLE recorded that and reacted accordingly. We were supposed to be fooled.
! The universe doesn't care, The Doc always faked his death. He just needed the alibi. (However, the death of the last timelord might actually be significant as an actual cosmic event… but the death of the doctor? Not so much. )

! Although it does make me wonder, what exactly is the Doctor going to do if he's planning on being in the shadow for a while? He'd have to stay out of the way for many of the aliens out there, because if one sees him, they'll most likely spread the news that he's alive.
! Which I don't doubt will happen eventually, but he said he wanted to stay out of sight for a while.

! Well, for as long as he's the 11th Doctor he can fudge it a bit by saying its earlier in his timeline and who will know any better? Mostly it only matters until he takes down the Silence. But also it hopefully means we get to see a lot of new ideas and places for a while, a little less reuse of things we've seen plenty of lately, and well… less boasting from the Doctor of "I can take down your whole armada by myself." This just lets the doctor going back to doing classic stories, where he can just walk into a place and people have no idea who he is. Which is fine by me, his fame kind of exploded in NuWho.

Honestly it seems like Mofatt has already set up Smith's big swan song and exit and regen into 12… whenever that might be. Clearly he sticking around through the 50th anniversary, but I wouldn't be surprised if he bows out shortly after. A 4 year run isn't bad by any means.

Smith has said he wants to match Tom Baker's run... but aside from Eccleston they all say that. 7 years as a main lead on a show is a lot longer, harder and career typecasting than anyone thinks when they first come on.

[Darkstorm]

The school competition short is up.

[Robby]

Yeah, I could see that being canon.

Written by 11 year olds or not. Fun couple of little bits in there.

[Mr. Zoro]

I just realized,

! for once (as far as I know), the TARDIS has been inside the Doctor! I know, I know, it's actually the Tessa., but whatever… funny thought.

Also, I've gotten quite fond of listening to the audios as I do homework. So far I've listened to Horror on Glam Rock, which was pretty good… I was a bit surprised to see that Bernard Cribbons was part of the cast on that one! I'm listening to Blood of the Daleks right now.

Any other ones that I should lend an ear to?

[LightningAce]

@RobbyBevard:

! Thats exactly what the entire point of it all was. That PEOPLE recorded that and reacted accordingly. We were supposed to be fooled.
! The universe doesn't care, The Doc always faked his death. He just needed the alibi. (However, the death of the last timelord might actually be significant as an actual cosmic event… but the death of the doctor? Not so much. )

! Well, for as long as he's the 11th Doctor he can fudge it a bit by saying its earlier in his timeline and who will know any better? Mostly it only matters until he takes down the Silence. But also it hopefully means we get to see a lot of new ideas and places for a while, a little less reuse of things we've seen plenty of lately, and well… less boasting from the Doctor of "I can take down your whole armada by myself." This just lets the doctor going back to doing classic stories, where he can just walk into a place and people have no idea who he is. Which is fine by me, his fame kind of exploded in NuWho.

Honestly it seems like Mofatt has already set up Smith's big swan song and exit and regen into 12… whenever that might be. Clearly he sticking around through the 50th anniversary, but I wouldn't be surprised if he bows out shortly after. A 4 year run isn't bad by any means.

Smith has said he wants to match Tom Baker's run... but aside from Eccleston they all say that. 7 years as a main lead on a show is a lot longer, harder and career typecasting than anyone thinks when they first come on.

I dunno about that. Everyone's making a big assumption that 'The fall of the eleventh' infact indicates the death of the 11the regenerating into No.12
It could very well mean something entirely - like indicating a date/time….
This ending, though i really enjoyed it - seriously pissed me off - because it leaves open too many other questions about the Silence - and since last year, when the TARDIS exploded - that has been bugging me. I was expecting answers, only to realise i may have to wait years before i get any about them.

[SympathyX]

@Mr.:

I just realized,

! for once (as far as I know), the TARDIS has been inside the Doctor! I know, I know, it's actually the Tessa., but whatever… funny thought.
It was in Let's Killer Hitler as well.

Also, I've gotten quite fond of listening to the audios as I do homework. So far I've listened to Horror on Glam Rock, which was pretty good… I was a bit surprised to see that Bernard Cribbons was part of the cast on that one! I'm listening to Blood of the Daleks right now.

Any other ones that I should lend an ear to?

I'm your man.

The Eighth Doctor Adventures are a great place to start…. but it might help if you listen to them in order ¬_¬. There is a story arc going through it.

All four seasons of the EDAs are really really good. Only weird thing is that a regular release, An Earthly Child is set after 4.01 and before 4.02.
That's the Eighth Doctor at the latest point in his Big Finish life though. I strongly recommend going earlier in his life with the monthly releases with Charley Pollard as the companion.

Past that it really depends on which classic Doctors you like. Despite Colin Baker's fairly disappointing run on TV, most of his audios are utterly fantastic. Same goes for Sylvester McCoy. His stories with Ace and Hex are among some of the best. Here's my recommendations. Start with any Doctor you like but try and listen to them in the order I've put down:

Fifth Doctor:
Spare Parts (Cyberman origin story. One of the best) Cobwebs The Gathering

Sixth Doctor:
_The Reaping
The Marion Conspiracy
The Spectre of Lanyon Moore
Jubilee
Davros
The Condemned (_but only after hearing The Girl Who Never Was)
Brotherhood of the Daleks
Patient Zero/Paper Cuts/Blue Forgotten Planet
City of Spires/Wreck of the Titan/Legend of the Cybermen
The One Doctor

Seventh Doctor:
Colditz
The Harvest
Dreamtime
LIVE 34
The Settling
No Man's Land
Forty-Five
Enemy of the Daleks
The Angel of Scutari/Project Destiny/A Death in The Family
A Thousand Tiny Wings/Klein's Story/Survival of the Fittest/The Architechts of History
Eighth Doctor:
The Company of Friends
Storm Warning
Sword of Orion
The Stones of Venice
The Chimes of Midnight
Embrace the Darkness
The Time of the Daleks/Neverland/Zagreus/Scherzo/The Creed of Kromon
The Next Life
Terror Firma
Memory Lane
Absolution
The Girl Who Never Was
The New Eighth Doctor Adventures Seasons 1-4
Theres plenty more good ones but those are some of my favourites and "must hears" for the ongoing story.

@RobbyBevard:

Honestly it seems like Mofatt has already set up Smith's big swan song and exit and regen into 12… whenever that might be. Clearly he sticking around through the 50th anniversary, but I wouldn't be surprised if he bows out shortly after. A 4 year run isn't bad by any means.

Don't be so sure. The last prophecies from the last two seasons i.e, the Doctor being sealed away in the Pandorica, the TARDIS blowing up and the Doctor dying didn't exactly work out how anyone had expected.

[Robby]

@LightningAce:

This ending, though i really enjoyed it - seriously pissed me off - because it leaves open too many other questions about the Silence - and since last year, when the TARDIS exploded - that has been bugging me. I was expecting answers, only to realise i may have to wait years before i get any about them.

Didn't I tell you last week thats exactly what it was going to be and to prepare for exactly that? That it would answer the big questions dropped at the start of the season, but that the arc stuff wouldn't?

Maffatt's playing a bigger arc like Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica. The fact that the River plotline started in Tennant's era should be sign enough of the fact that its a bigger game than a single season arc.

[TLC]

Lol, Moffat trolled us all (yes, not really but that was quite the trick he pulled at the last minute). Fantastic episode.

[SympathyX]

@Thousand:

Lol, Moffat trolled us all (yes, not really but that was quite the trick he pulled at the last minute). Fantastic episode.

Not really last minute when set it up six weeks ago.

[TLC]

What I mean is he used it at the last second after tons and tons of "This death is inescapable no matter what the Doctor does and nothing is gonna work". It would actually have been a pretty cheap cop-out if a) it hadn't been set up weeks ago and b)it wasn't pulled off in such a fast and tongue in cheek manner. Then it just became hilarious and fun.

[Conekiller]

! So once the Doctor goes 12th I don't see how he could travel backwards in time anymore without tipping his hand. If History considers him dead from 2011 onward, looking at time linearly, any adventures any iteration of the Doctor (including 11) could be chalked up to "wibbly-wobbly". But once there's a new version of him popping up in the past, it must mean that he survived River's attack and later regenerated, and then those who are chronicling this would be aware that he really didn't die in 2011.

[Flux]

How does a robot fool the universe?

The 'everyone loves you' thing that came out of the unnecessary beacon of hope was nice and thematic, but … meant nothing, cus they didn't help him. Too much blurry Amy from here, and Amy from there and Rory from there and Rory from here. I thought she was a model now, I didn't get why she was a splinter cell agent with an unknown Rory.

River fucking Song.

It was a horrendous cop-out that after all the 'this is unavoidable, this cannot be avoided, this is impossible to avoid' stuff, and the entire fucking tragic point of the Silence imprisoning her in the spacesuit to kill him, and she just turns around and says 'oh I can't bring myself to do it' … the 'i love you more than the universe which includes you' stuff was bollocks.

Liked seeing Dickens back and the messed up time bit was cool, Churchill, Romans, Silurians etc, the Chess was cool.

You know after the finale, and I know many people are like 'you can't tell the name the show would be redundant' but I could see the show having the potential to continue after his name was revealed. I mean when else would you get another opportunity so grand, but I suppose they'll keep it hidden cus nothing they can come up with can measure up after so many years of spec. And it's not like it's the only mystery. And let's face it, after so long, most people ain't tuning in repeatedly for a name.

I'm still unsure what happened. They seemed to fluctuate between The Death being something forced upon The Doctor by the Universe, something forced upon by the Silence, and something The Doctor himself orchestrates to keep a low profile.

What about Stetson Doctor? Where was his TARDIS? The Doctor travelling throughout time for 200 years, the stuff on TV etc - what's being done with that?

[Robby]

@Thousand:

Lol, Moffat trolled us all (yes, not really but that was quite the trick he pulled at the last minute). Fantastic episode.

Like I keep saying, when pretty much every single episode this season provided a new out… and the doctor's 48 year track record of defeating impossible traps... it was never really about the how, just the why.

@Conekiller:

! So once the Doctor goes 12th I don't see how he could travel backwards in time anymore without tipping his hand. If History considers him dead from 2011 onward, looking at time linearly, any adventures any iteration of the Doctor (including 11) could be chalked up to "wibbly-wobbly". But once there's a new version of him popping up in the past, it must mean that he survived River's attack and later regenerated, and then those who are chronicling this would be aware that he really didn't die in 2011.

He beats the Silence, then he doesn't need to hide from them anymore.

Of course when both the hero and villain are hopping around in time, this is made a little bit trickier. Just look at how impossible its been to wipe out the Daleks.

Mostly it just means he's going to be incognito and on a smaller scale for at least a season.

@Flux:

How does a robot fool the universe?

Doesn't have to. Just has to fool the Silence.

Its not the Doctor's death thats the key point. Its the death of the feared Warrior Doctor, the death of that reputation, and how the universe reacts to it, thats the key point. It was always the robot, it was never the actual Doctor dying there. The universe isn't being fooled, the people in it are.

Also, it was mentioned that the Silence created a fixed point, so whatever that entails…

As to the rest... yes, all the stuff with River was an elaborate plan... and it failed. The Doctor is good at ruining elaborate plans.

I'm still unsure what happened. They seemed to fluctuate between The Death being something forced upon The Doctor by the Universe, something forced upon by the Silence, and something The Doctor himself orchestrates to keep a low profile.

It was something forced upon by the Silence, that the doctor took advantage of to orchestrate a low profile, that affects the universe.

So it's all three.

[LightningAce]

@Flux:

What about Stetson Doctor? Where was his TARDIS? The Doctor travelling throughout time for 200 years, the stuff on TV etc - what's being done with that?

His TARDIS was where he left it - somewhere else. The Tesselecta or the people behind him clearly gave him a ride to where he needed to be, because they are Time travelers themselves. He can't cross into his own timestream with his own TARDIS, but apparently he could with that thing…

[Mr. Zoro]

In retrospect, this was a pretty good season, with The Rebel Flesh probably being my least favorite story and either The Doctor's Wife or The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon being my favorite… hard to decide.

I just really hope Gaiman gets to write another episode.

[Robby]

@Mr.:

I just really hope Gaiman gets to write another episode.

I'm sure he's been invited to, but it'll probably be awhile. He apparently spent 2 years writing and rewriting that one episode and fell behind on a lot of other commitments that he has to catch up on.

@LightningAce:

He can't cross into his own timestream with his own TARDIS, but apparently he could with that thing…

He didn't cross his own timesteam. Stetson doctor always arrived at that point, then "died" and went about on his way… after making sure Amy knew quite clearly that the Doctor was going to "die"... so that she could then start dropping clues when travelling with his 200 years younger version... who appeared on the scene 20 minutes later and never met his older version.

No interaction, no changing anything, it always happened the way it happened.
Its a stable time loop.

It's like the events of Blink, just over a whole season.

[Flux]

Neil Gaiman, Richard Curtis, Gareth Roberts (if same par as Closing Time) and some Paul Cornell would be my dream fix for next year. Moffat has said there are big extravangza plans for the Special Year, so I'd also like RTD back to write an episode.

Also Jack has to return for the 50th.

[SympathyX]

@Flux:

How does a robot fool the universe?

When said robot is piloted by the Doctor.

The 'everyone loves you' thing that came out of the unnecessary beacon of hope was nice and thematic, but … meant nothing, cus they didn't help him.

Of course it did. It gave the Doctor something to go by. It gave him more reasons not to give up.

Too much blurry Amy from here, and Amy from there and Rory from there and Rory from here. I thought she was a model now, I didn't get why she was a splinter cell agent with an unknown Rory.

In the fucked up universe she was an alien expert. Moreso than most having encountered as many as she has.

As for the model thing…. yeah... well... which Amy? Younger or older? Hard to say really.

River fucking Song.

Best invention the show has had since it came back.

It was a horrendous cop-out that after all the 'this is unavoidable, this cannot be avoided, this is impossible to avoid' stuff, and the entire fucking tragic point of the Silence imprisoning her in the spacesuit to kill him, and she just turns around and says 'oh I can't bring myself to do it' … the 'i love you more than the universe which includes you' stuff was bollocks.

What was bollocks about it? Made perfect sense to me. The tragic thing wasn't her being imprisoned in the suit, it was having to do it anyway, despite the fact that she regained control and didn't have to do it.

Liked seeing Dickens back and the messed up time bit was cool, Churchill, Romans, Silurians etc, the Chess was cool.

I can believe a lot of things on Doctor Who but I can't believe in BBC Breakfast being on at 5:02 in the afternoon.

You know after the finale, and I know many people are like 'you can't tell the name the show would be redundant' but I could see the show having the potential to continue after his name was revealed. I mean when else would you get another opportunity so grand, but I suppose they'll keep it hidden cus nothing they can come up with can measure up after so many years of spec. And it's not like it's the only mystery. And let's face it, after so long, most people ain't tuning in repeatedly for a name.

Personally, I hope they never do utter his name. Even if they do, the Virgin New Adventures didn't lose much steam for revealing the Doctor to be a reincarnation of the Other.

I'm still unsure what happened. They seemed to fluctuate between The Death being something forced upon The Doctor by the Universe, something forced upon by the Silence, and something The Doctor himself orchestrates to keep a low profile.

It was all three. Quite simple really.

The Silence orchestrated it so that he would never reach Trenzalore. The Doctor and River HAD to keep the web of time intact or they would be negating the entire season. The Doctor made sure an image of himself died so that he could keep a low profile. The Silents were there watching so it's fair to say they were fooled for now.

What about Stetson Doctor? Where was his TARDIS? The Doctor travelling throughout time for 200 years, the stuff on TV etc - what's being done with that?

His TARDIS was inside the Teselecta. Didn't you see? He most likely dematerialised before the younger Doctor even got there

[Mr. Zoro]

I was pondering a while ago and

! in The Impossible Astronaut, the Tesselecta Doctor (with the Doctor on board) mentions to River Song about Jim the Fish and Easter Island, but none of those events were seen in this season as far as I know. Were those just adventures that happened off-screen?
! The only thing I can think of is that he was lying to River to help hint that he was from the future, just like how he said he was 200 years older but he isn't, as far as we know.

[Robby]

@Mr.:

I was pondering a while ago and

! in The Impossible Astronaut, the Tesselecta Doctor (with the Doctor on board) mentions to River Song about Jim the Fish and Easter Island, but none of those events were seen in this season as far as I know. Were those just adventures that happened off-screen?
! The only thing I can think of is that he was lying to River to help hint that he was from the future, just like how he said he was 200 years older but he isn't, as far as we know.

He always has some adventures off screen and years of time that aren't accounted for. This season clearly had at least a few adventures off camera in the last two episodes. 200 years worth? Hrm, maybe, though if that were the case it would have been nice to see a couple more solo episodes to drive the point home.

It's also pretty much on record that 10 met River another time or two that we didn't see, as well. (Otherwise she would have been more jarred by seeing his pre-regeneration for the first time.)

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

He always has some adventures off screen and years of time that aren't accounted for. This season clearly had at least a few adventures off camera in the last two episodes. 200 years worth? Hrm, maybe, though if that were the case it would have been nice to see a couple more solo episodes to drive the point home.

Why does everyone assume that?

The last time Amy asked his age could have been back in season 5. It's fairly unlikely that she went "oh shit, Doctor, by the way, how old are you?!" right before she saw him last. What about the gap in between The Big Bang and A Christmas Carol? and Death of the Doctor? The gap between A Christmas Carol and The Impossible Astronaut? The gap between The Almost People and A Good Man Goes To War? The gap between A Good Man Goes To War and Let's Kill Hitler? The amount of time he spent travelling around DURING the beginning of The Wedding of River Song.

There's plenty of places for him to wrack up time, not just between The God Complex and Closing Time. Or, he's quite simply lying to make an obvious clear difference in the two of them in TIA.

It's also pretty much on record that 10 met River another time or two that we didn't see, as well. (Otherwise she would have been more jarred by seeing his pre-regeneration for the first time.)

Pretty much on record according to who? Total bollocks. Speculation isn't conformation. She called the Doctor and a bloke in the TARDIS with a Sonic Screwdriver turned up. She said "I know all your faces" but in what context? Does she know that her Doctor is number 11? For all she knows he's the first. She might know the next couple and figure that 10 is actually the fourth or something.

The fact that on first meeting with River Song in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone he introduces her as Professor to Amy rather than Doctor heavily implies that he hasn't seen her since then. How could the Tenth Doctor get away with knowing less than Eleven does in ToA/FaS without River figuring out that he's the youngest one. Especially since by the time she'd have been a Professor, she would have had many, MANY more interactions with Eleven and for all we know, possibly even Twelve.

[Robby]

@SympathyX:

Why does everyone assume that?

Uhm… I was saying he always has offscreen adventures... you're saying the same thing? And we're agreeing that they might not have all been in that little clump at the end?

The last time Amy asked his age could have been back in season 5.

It was pretty specifically asked in The Impossible Astronaut. Thats when he gave the response of 1100 years, and then later 900. Hence, 200 years in the course of the season.

Granted, he could have been lying.

Pretty much on record according to who?

Mofatt.

She said "I know all your faces" but in what context? Does she know that her Doctor is number 11? For all she knows he's the first. She might know the next couple and figure that 10 is actually the fourth or something.

She's researched the Doctor heavily, and says, quite specifically to Ten, judging from the look in his eyes "This is the youngest I've ever seen you."

The fact that on first meeting with River Song in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone he introduces her as Professor to Amy rather than Doctor heavily implies that he hasn't seen her since then.

Or you know. She had a couple meetings with 10 as a professor. Backwards timeline and all. She loses her degree as the Doctor gets to know her better. Or had she just gotten the degree 2 days ago in Silence in the Library?

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

It was pretty specifically asked in The Impossible Astronaut. Thats when he gave the response of 1100 years, and then later 900. Hence, 200 years in the course of the season.

I'm talking about younger Doctor. On the beach Amy says "last time I saw you you were…"

Mofatt.

I call bullshit. When did he say that?

In the Library River figured out he was too young in about 5 minutes. In Time of Angels, she again knows he's too young.

Professor River song would have figured 10 out in 5 minutes, easy as hell. Time of Angels is the Doctor's second meeting with her.

[Robby]

@SympathyX:

I call bullshit. When did he say that?

Sorry, I can't search my memory for every internet site, interview, discussion, Confidential episode, tweet, and random piece of trivia I've heard in the last two years and find you the exact quote or where I specifically first heard it.

If you want to hunt through his twitter for the last 2 years, feel free. http://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat

Can probably find it on Aintitcoolnews, but I'm not going through the trouble of hunting through that massive archive since thats hundreds of articles and tens of thousands of posts.

Here's a random site that a quick google search for " "doctor 10 met river more than once"" turns up where someone else has heard the same thing. Sorry its not a direct citation from the man himself, so yes, its heresay. http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1495164

But I'm fairly confident its been stated as likely, by Moffat, before.

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

Sorry, I can't search my memory for every internet site, interview, discussion, Confidential episode, tweet, and random piece of trivia I've heard in the last two years and find you the exact quote or where I specifically first heard it.

Cool it man.

If you want to hunt through his twitter for the last 2 years, feel free. http://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat

Nope.

Here's a random site that a quick google search for " "doctor 10 met river more than once"" turns up where someone else has heard the same thing. Sorry its not a direct citation from the man himself, so yes, its heresay. http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1495164

But I'm fairly confident its been stated as likely, by Moffat, before.
Well "heresay" as you put it is hardly "pretty much on record"

Not stated on screen so not canon. Even if Moffat did say that at some point.

Even after season 6 theres less evidence for that happening.

In a DWM interview a few months back, Moffat said that he wasn't sure on Amy being River's mother during the planning of season 5 and that it was actually plan B or something. Just because he said it at some point does that mean that plan A happened in a different, possibly aborted timeline? Probably not.

It's not like the Moffat/Gaiman joke of River being conceived on a bunk bed either because the bed actually was mentioned in the show.

[Robby]

I did say PRETTY MUCH on record. Not OFFICIALLY.

As in, Mofatt said it at some point, its likely, but not canon.

I'm aware of the distinction, that's why I made it.

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

I did say PRETTY MUCH on record. Not OFFICIALLY.

As in, Mofatt said it at some point, its likely, but not canon.

I'm aware of the distinction, that's why I made it.

It's nowhere near on record. Whether he said it once or not, there's bugger all place for it to fit.

With the evidence that we do have on screen, it's more unlikely than likely. Plans change.

EDIT: Also, depending on the age of this quote, did you know that before announcing that he was taking over and before Tennant announced he was quitting, Moffat asked David Tennant if he wanted to do season 5 and gave him a brief plot synopsis?

The plan can change and often has. Moffat's not stupid. That's why most of River's dialogue is intentionally vague and can change meaning depending on context

[Robby]

There's plenty of space for it to fit. Or was River only a professor, only pardoned from jail, for a few days at the time of Silence in the Library?

There's not any space for them to get comfortable with each other, no, but there's certainly space for another meeting and the doctor to start feeling apprehension about "always meeting out of order". Doesn't even have to be a big universe saving running from monsters crisis.

We know as fact he meets up with her once between Time of the Angels and the Library to give her a screwdriver… in the style of 10's... though where that is on the Doctor's timeline Who knows. Presumably 11 (or 12 even) who trusts her fully giving her one last surprise farewell visit after she thinks he's forgotten her forever... complete with haircut and new suit.

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

There's plenty of space for it to fit. Or was River only a professor, only pardoned from jail, for a few days at the time of Silence in the Library?

Read my earlier posts. I don't remember where I heard it but I think it could well have been actually. Don't quote me on it, I don't really believe it.

We know as fact he meets up with her once between Time of the Angels and the Library to give her a screwdriver… though where that is on the Doctor's timeline Who knows. Presumably 11 (or 12 even) who trusts her fully giving her one last surprise farewell visit after she thinks he's forgotten her forever... complete with haircut and new suit.

Entirely possible. Though, the last date could have been on her last night in Stormcage or near her release, who knows.

I'll believe a lot in Doctor Who when it comes to the timeline. I believe that a lot of the books and audios do actually happen. I really, really cannot agree for even a second though that there's a chance that Ten has met River Song more than once.

It doesn't work. It doesn't fit.

Look at Silence In The Library/Time of Angels/The Impossible Astronaut. Every time a new, unrelated adventure happens they compare diaries. Should Ten at this point be keeping track, the only thing he knows is the Library adventure which hasn't happened yet for River. Assuming that this is Professor River Song and NOT Doctor River Song, based on Eleven's later mistake, the River that Ten met would have nearly a fully book and would figure out in mere seconds that this is an early Doctor and not a later one. This combined with what she said in The Impossible Astronaut:

RIVER:
Trouble is, it's all back to front. My past is his future. We're travelling in opposite directions. Every time we meet, I know him more, he knows me less. I live for the days when I see him. But I know that every time I do, he'll be one step further away. And the day's coming, when I'll look into that man's eyes… my Doctor... and he won't have the faintest idea who I am. (the lock whirrs) And I think it's going to kill me.

…heavily implies the Library episode that we'd already seen. If she already knew that Ten was a younger Doctor in The Library then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't nearly have had a similar emotional reaction.

There is plenty of evidence that suggests that The Time of Angels is the second time that the Doctor met River. There is next to no evidence that Ten met her more than once.

[Robby]

Hrm. Fair enough. I haven't actually watched the Library episodes since it aired, so its been a couple years. I was planning on eventually watching the eps in River sequence, I may be missing some of th emotional beats.

[SympathyX]

@RobbyBevard:

Hrm. Fair enough. I haven't actually watched the Library episodes since it aired, so its been a couple years. I was planning on eventually watching the eps in River sequence, I may be missing some of th emotional beats.

Did you watch Confidential?

They did a 10/15 minute sequence narrated by Alex Kingston putting it all in order from her perspective. Very well done.

[Robby]

Nope, haven't seen any of the confidentials. Its a pain enough to get the actual show stateside. The spinoff behind the scenes stuff? Even more so.