talk about ASOIAF (game of thrones) books here instead of the tv show thread.
A Song of Ice and Fire (book thread)
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So, end of book five.
! Who ACTUALLY thinks Jon is dead? Show of hands?
! The scene cut away without showing the aftermath, the very start of the book had the whole out of body experience prologue/new life thing, his wolf is still around, and he's on… interesting terms with the witch of resurrection. Plus he's pretty much the only character carrying the narrative at the wall, there's not really anyone to take his place. -
@RobbyBevard:
So, end of book five.
! Who ACTUALLY thinks Jon is dead? Show of hands?
! The scene cut away without showing the aftermath, the very start of the book had the whole out of body experience prologue/new life thing, his wolf is still around, and he's on… interesting terms with the witch of resurrection. Plus he's pretty much the only character carrying the narrative at the wall, there's not really anyone to take his place.Do we even need spoiler tags here? Well, I assume so, but whatever.
! I'm almost 100% sure he's not dead. If they don't show anyone's throat getting opened, then it's a possibility they're alive. But then again, when they ended his story on such a cliffhanger… it's possible. But I don't think so.
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! Him dying wouldn't serve any point in the story. Ned dying had the point of subverting our expectations on how no character is safe and kick-starting the war. The Red Wedding marked the end of the war and forcing the North to its weakest point. Jon dying…shows that life sucks? Point long established Martin but you can't kill characters without their long built up story arcs going no where.
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Do we even need spoiler tags here? Well, I assume so, but whatever.
If you're going to talk a major plot point like a character death from the most recent book, yes. (even though thats a couple years old now.) Mostly thats just an initial courtesy to show where the topic is going to go… the posts after it probably don't need to bother.
Just use your best judgement.
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@Thousand:
! Him dying wouldn't serve any point in the story. Ned dying had the point of subverting our expectations on how no character is safe and kick-starting the war. The Red Wedding marked the end of the war and forcing the North to its weakest point. Jon dying…shows that life sucks? Point long established Martin but you can't kill characters without their long built up story arcs going no where.
! I guess that's kinda the point though. If Jon's dead, then that just means that life can abruptly end in this series without his or hers plot threads being tied up nicely. It would be lame, sure, but I can see that happening.
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Like I said in the other thread a few weeks ago
! There is no point of the prologue if it wasn't foreshadowing in part the fact that Jon presumably warged out into Ghost, or something to that effect.
! There is a 0% chance that Jon is dead for real and has no further role in the story. -
! I think he's dead.
I also think he'll be back in some form. Inside Ghost, as Coldhands Mk II I dunno. -
So yeah, that WILL get annoying fast. Okay, from here on out, just assume anyone in this thread has read to the end of book five.
We can deal with tags when book 6 comes.
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Lol yeah I'll throw myself out for ridicule because I'd like to hear some developed ideas about where this is going and I only have the most basic ideas mapped out:
SO ANYWAYS JON SNOW BASICALLY GOT STABBED TO DEATH
But he warged out or something
Basically the two general theories accepted as far as what I've seen are he's inside of Ghost, or he jumped out and will come back to his body as a whitewalker or something I don't know
There is also a kind of implicitly understood idea that the raven has something in store for him in the future. I can see something working out with him if Jon is basically a wolf and stuck as one
I'm not super into the commnunity so I haven't heard much more than that and since both were things I figured would happen anyways it's not very hard to come up with conjecture :') Anything that goes beyond that I have no idea. Like, where he's going in the future as a character is just hazy
Edit: I forgot some people think he's dead for real but Melisandre will revive him or something, but that's such a clunky and lame idea and it'd be awkward for both he and Caitlin to have that kind of tie to the red god magic. I can't quite see Melisandre really factoring into his pseudo-death.
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Ha! The craziest theory I heard was that Lady Stoneheart will walk all the way up to the Wall once she has converted the Twins into a factory for Frey pies and administer the kiss of revival to Jon Snow, finishing her quest for redemption (lolwut?).
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Haha oh my god that's awful.
On that note: pretty sure in general the Starks, separated as they are now, have very little reason to ever converge again from a story standpoint. The most likely candidates for ever meeting face to face again are Bran and Jon really and that's it (with where everything is now).
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@Holy:
On that note: pretty sure in general the Starks, separated as they are now, have very little reason to ever converge again from a story standpoint. The most likely candidates for ever meeting face to face again are Bran and Jon really and that's it (with where everything is now).
Its long been my feeling that they'd all end up basically on opposites sides and aligning with opposite forces and sort of have to go against each other ultimately… but their paths are so spread apart now I have no idea.
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I'm with "Death but will be revived", as he has both the "Ice" revival (Warging into a Wight, as the popular theory on Coldhands goes) and "Fire" revival (Via Melissandre's nookie of life, unless she's already a fire zombie, I don't see her giving up her unlife for Jon)
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100% sure Jon isn't dead, or if he is, it's only his physical body. Can't imagine that Martin is done with his character just yet.
Regarding his survival, I have to admit that I really don't like the theory that he will receive the "last kiss" by Melisandre because I don't want to see him turn into a character like Beric or Catelyn, a ghost of their former selves. Melisandre envisioned him first as a man, then a wolf, then a man again, so I think the possibility that he warged into Ghost and will warg back into his or possibly another human body is good. I also don't think there is enough concrete evidence that his wounds were outright fatal. He was stabbed in the stomach and between the shoulder blades, and (likely) an additional wound that he didn't feel. Serious injuries – absolutely. But still within the realm of survivability. Either way, I doubt we've seen the last of him.
Also, kudos to separating the series into two threads. It's nice to be able to discuss the book openly.
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^ tbh there's alot of foreshadowing (or red herrings) that it might happen. Remember how Melisande tried to get a vision of Azor ahai and only saw snow? That could be a reference to that.
I've heard of other theories that point to jon being the next azor ahai (bloody sigil with a star when jon was stabbed, bowen marsh crying (salt)) but it feels overreaching
I'm more interested in knowing how martin is going to wrap up the whole meereenese plot, since i don't see any resolution coming since the issue of her people hasn't been resolved.
Anyway thanks taboo for setting this up. I guess it can be annoying for non-book readers whether they should open a tagged post not knowing whether it's the dreaded book spoilers.
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I figure the Meereen stuff will get resolved with the aid of Vicatarion and other characters interfering and she'll basically, somehow, get honked over to Westeros by major influence of other people. I almost wonder if that side of the world will basically be abandoned entirely to fix and fend for itself?
Also the Azor Ahai thing just always felt like it was going to be Dany.
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The mereneese knot is basically taken care of. The dragons got loose and burned the city down, took out most of the plot tangle characters involved in the area, and Dany is about to be a captive. So, pretty much done with the area and ready to move on without having actually fixed it.
Or have Tyrion finally get involved in some way.
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As unfortunate as that sounds you guys are probably right. I think that meereen getting hosed up while dany takes a leave of absence is the most likely, but barristan's a cool geezer and I don't like his chances. It looks increasingly bad that he's in a catch-24 situation what with all the dragons and ironmen who can't be too happy that dany is flying off.
Or maybe this will drive home the fact that dany was never meant to be a 'good' queen but a warmongering one who's destined to give fire and blood to her enemies
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I wonder how much of the Mereneese knot was finished by the time ADWD was published - scratch that, I wonder how many chapters GRRM held back from being published in general despite the ones already mentioned in the wiki.
In any case, Dany will be on her way to Westeros in one way or another. I expect some POV characters to die along the way, though. Both Barristan and Victarion look like walking corpses to me. -
Finally, so glad these threads are seperate now.
Really looking forward to Davos' chapters. Always been a fan of Davos, and a fan of sneaking, which seems to be what he'll be up to.
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I'm interested to see how the Battle for Winterfell turns out. Most places I've been reading take it as a forgone conclusion that Stannis will win. But Roose is a very very shrewd man, so I don't see him going down so easy. I just hope Lord Lamprey survives this battle, his Frey pie stunt endeared him immensely to me.
I've also been waiting to see where the Blackfish ends up.
Option 1: He's heading the BwB, the anti-unCat faction.
Option 2: He's laying low and will end up in the Vale once Alayne becomes Sansa. -
@RobbyBevard:
So yeah, that WILL get annoying fast. Okay, from here on out, just assume anyone in this thread has read to the end of book five.
We can deal with tags when book 6 comes.
What are the rules on the released chapters of Winds of Winter? None of the ones I'm familar with have enormous implications to the story as far as I'm aware but for courtesy would it be preferred if any discussion of them were kept in spoiler tags?
ps very happy that this thread exists
Theory Time!
The dude with the 'Sabo' hat in Doflamingo's crew is one of the 'Toy' people 
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What are the rules on the released chapters of Winds of Winter? None of the ones I'm familar with have enormous implications to the story as far as I'm aware but for courtesy would it be preferred if any discussion of them were kept in spoiler tags?
Yeah, those aren't technically released and you'd have to go well out of your way through various sources to get access to them, so yes, spoiler tag anything after book 5.
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Is there in-story justification why Euron Greyjoy supposedly has a slitted, crow-like eyeball? Is it akin to Brynden River's strange, blood-colored and raven-shaped birthmark as a sign of great magical potential?
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the person i am moest interested in is, is Arya. i smile everytime i think she is gonna end up in the castle of the freys and do her assasin stuf.
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I imagine the Frey situation will be long resolved by entirely different parties by then.
Manderly's surprise reveal as a shrewder than appeared man is setting up something interesting.
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@S.C.:
Is there in-story justification why Euron Greyjoy supposedly has a slitted, crow-like eyeball? Is it akin to Brynden River's strange, blood-colored and raven-shaped birthmark as a sign of great magical potential?
Nope, I don't think so. There is a great mystery about that man in general. I imagine both his eyes, the one that is covered and the one that is not, have some symbolic significance.
@Holy:
Manderly's surprise reveal as a shrewder than appeared man is setting up something interesting.
But will he really bother with the Freys in the South? I imagine his designs center on restoring his rightful liege-lord as the Warden of the North. Now that his heir is back to White Harbour, I think he'll restrict his personal revenge to crushing the Freys that have ventured North.
But then, he lost a son at the Red Wedding too, so you never know. -
I finally got my hands on A Dance With Dragons. This is going to be awesome.
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But will he really bother with the Freys in the South? I imagine his designs center on restoring his rightful liege-lord as the Warden of the North. Now that his heir is back to White Harbour, I think he'll restrict his personal revenge to crushing the Freys that have ventured North.
But then, he lost a son at the Red Wedding too, so you never know.I feel that a guy that enjoys baking freys into pies and then eating them would just be waiting for the right opportunity to go down to the twins and slaughter everyone.
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Well you already have the BwB and Stoneheart killing Freys and Frey supporters left and right. By the time he gets down there there probably won't be any left.
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I feel that a guy that enjoys baking freys into pies and then eating them would just be waiting for the right opportunity to go down to the twins and slaughter everyone.
I think he'll have his plate full with outwitting Roose Bolton (one of the sharpest tools in the shed) and taking care of the Freys in the North, not to mention ensuring that the North's interests are not compromised in the face of Stannis' ambition.
If everything goes according to his plan, he's essentially Rickon's regent till the latter comes of age. Not to mention the only competent adult Lord the North has left, apart from the people stuck in the Neck.
Also what Bobjr said. -
I think he'll have his plate full with outwitting Roose Bolton (one of the sharpest tools in the shed) and taking care of the Freys in the North, not to mention ensuring that the North's interests are not compromised in the face of Stannis' ambition.
If everything goes according to his plan, he's essentially Rickon's regent till the latter comes of age. Not to mention the only competent adult Lord the North has left, apart from the people stuck in the Neck.
Also what Bobjr said.What happened to all those guys Robb sent north before the Red Wedding with the letter making Jon legitimate?
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What happened to all those guys Robb sent north before the Red Wedding with the letter making Jon legitimate?
Stuck in the Neck, along with whoever was carrying Ned's bones.
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I think he'll have his plate full with outwitting Roose Bolton (one of the sharpest tools in the shed) and taking care of the Freys in the North, not to mention ensuring that the North's interests are not compromised in the face of Stannis' ambition.
If everything goes according to his plan, he's essentially Rickon's regent till the latter comes of age. Not to mention the only competent adult Lord the North has left, apart from the people stuck in the Neck.
Also what Bobjr said.I think Roose knows he's screwed though. He even tells Theon at one point that Ramsay is too psychotic to keep the shaky truce from collapsing, along with Stannis attacking.
Stuck in the Neck, along with whoever was carrying Ned's bones.
The Silent Sisters have Ned's bones, and we haven't heard anything from them since they left for the Neck and the North.
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from george's blog
Does this mean you don't plan to use any of those that died in the TV show and not in the books ?
Not at all. If they are alive in the books, they are alive in the books, and may well turn up again. Irri (and Jhiqui) is still serving as Dany's handmaid, Rakharo remains one of her bloodriders, Mago will definitely show up again. You will learn the fate of Pyat Pree in WINDS. The Thirteen are still one of the factions contending for power in Qarth. You may see more of Alayaya and Chataya as well, and you will definitely hear more of Jeyne Westerling.
interesting
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from george's blog
interesting
Further proof that TV continuity is diverging from book continuity - which in a way is nice, as it means there can still be surprises in the TV show for those who are very familiar with the books.
Jeyne Westerling, then…could she have been pregnant with Robb's son after all?
moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon
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@Print:
Jeyne Westerling, then…could she have been pregnant with Robb's son after all?
That's doubtful since her mother had been giving her potions against pregnancy
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That's doubtful since her mother had been giving her potions against pregnancy
Yeah, whilst telling it was a fertility aid if I recall correctly? But I wonder why else Jeyne would play as big a role in the story as Martin seems to be alluding to.
moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon
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If Jeyne is pregnant it would sure fuck up the TV show continuity if Robb actually had an heir. Wonder how they'd try to fix it.
"Oh sorry honey, I know I said I loved you and all and we had all these romantic scenes together but I secretly shagged this other girl when you weren't looking. Whoopsie."
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@Print:
Yeah, whilst telling it was a fertility aid if I recall correctly?
yep
But I wonder why else Jeyne would play as big a role in the story as Martin seems to be alluding to.
Well, his brother raynald who "died" at the red wedding may still be alive and her great grandmother is Maggy the frog, a Maegi.
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I remember there being the theory that a pregnant Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish, but that was because GRRM didn't have an editor and forget what she looked like.
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Aparently it's the other way around, Because he forgot Jeyne's hips, there are million theories about the missing heir.
Also, Transgender Horses FTW.
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An excerpt from "the princess and the queen" can now be read here
http://www.tor.com/stories/2013/07/dangerous-women-george-r-r-martin-excerpt -
Wild chapters have apeard:
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/
And there's an app with another interesting chapter. The app is called World of Ice and Fire.
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Amazing .
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I can't imagine reading single random chapters of the books being released as teases… especially potentially YEARS ahead of the actual book. that sounds like even worse torture.
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I started book 1 about 3 weeks ago..only on chapter 2 right now
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I'm quite a way through the second book - unfortunately, the first page of the Toronto Star's entertainment section from a few days ago spoiled what appears to be a major character death from book three (didn't say who, but it did say which family they're from, who's responsible, and how it happened), so that's disappointing.
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I'm almost caught up, but when I got to FfC I looked up a chronological guide to the chapters since the events take place at the same time as DwD, and that's how I've been reading it. I gotta say it's thoughroughly entertaining and feels like I'm still just reading one book. I could not imagine an entire books worth of no Tyrion/Jon/Daenerys, and I'm glad I decided to read it this way.
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