About what shanks and garp said and asura

[ONEinchPUNCH]

Here is why strength is fighting ability

Originally Posted by ONEinchPUNCH
I've explained this before it isn't something new, in all shounen strength is fighting ability. Whitebeard was introduced at basically the same time as the redbook (just after alabasta) and he has strongest (strength) in his title. We then get strength in the data book, this is no coincidence it's Oda following basic shounen law.

It is a shounen manga you can't expect him to remove all shounen basic laws from it.

The manga also support them being equal with the whiskey peak fight, constant strength comparisons and zoro fighting jabura and kaku at the same time. Also the fact asura has been proven to be a state (like gear2) and the move used in it, dismissed amanedachi and killed kaku in the space of a second.

Luffy and zoro are always potrayed equal through the manga, the data book and whitebeard isn't mere coincidence.

[Final End]

@ Sabz, Jack, and AD HC…...and @ that guy who rants alot.

@CosmicDebris:

Listen guys - if Oda said it at any point in One Piece history, it's true until he says otherwise. NOT the other way around. If you want to believe that information about Luffy and Zoro is outdated, that's your prerogative, but you can't make any argument for it until new information is presented. It's completely pointless.

QFT….......Yellow data book is coming out in April.

Edit and shouts outs 2 KMA.....cuz his post had nothing but Canon in it! and they ignored it all.

[Radical jack]

there is nothing I can say about this that I haven't said before

You ignore 6=6 saying it could be this and could be that. You also ignore the fact both luffy and zoro have received new states only highlighting the gears.

my goodness.How may times have I've said this,Im not ignoring
anything.Your the one who is so clear cut about everything just because of a number.All im trying to say is to keep an open mind because theres so many other things to consider to just to rely on a number.And i haven't ignored anything zoro has done,Im saying its not as big as a boost as gears were to luffy.For all we know zoro can go back to his normal state after the move hits or misses.

Now if you want to throw the ''ignore'' word out so casually here's what you ignore

Douriki

Lucchi being far more mastered in roukishi techniques.

kaku not having full full experience of hid dfs

the data book being very dated

Luffy's speech to blueno and lucchi

soru effectiveness is different depending on user.

how luffy owning enel and enel beating zoro is very contradictory to 6=6

even your speculation of m r 1 beating luffy is contradicting 6=6.

And all you say is it could be this, it might be that, the graph is a rough version. You have no facts whatsoever backing up our claims, so how can a post full of speculation beat facts?

there's that word again..what facts? you speculate just as much as anyone else.

Everytime you specualte I show you facts.
.

…..

If your going to be an idiot I'll try spoon feeding, A SWORDSMAN needs more TECHNIQUE to fight. Douriki isn't as much a priority as TECHNIQUE while a BRAWLER, HAND TO HAND FIGHTER needs more douriki.

Understand?

But techinque can stiil be owned if you have high athletic ability.And plus the cp9(lucchi especially) specialize in techniques.They cp9 are not brawlers.The only one close to a brawler was fukoro and he had weak douriki

It's quite obvious I'm talking about fighting styles different needs, but you like be to a clown don't you?

Thas exactly what I have been talking about also.And 6=6 cantradicts all talks about fighting styles

Edit and shouts outs 2 KMA…..cuz his post had nothing but Canon in it! and they ignored it all.

actually I replied to it quite well,If I do say so myself

[Final End]

^^NO you didnt…...why dont you relpy and dismiss what cosmic said?

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@Radical:

there is nothing I can say about this that I haven't said before

my goodness.How may times have I've said this,Im not ignoring
anything.Your the one who is so clear cut about everything just because of a number.

ODA has his ending planned out, that number is important because he knows the ending and has given each character their strength.

All im trying to say is to keep an open mind because theres so many other things to consider to just to rely on a number.And i haven't ignored anything zoro has done,Im saying its not as big as a boost as gears were to luffy.

Of course it is, amanedachi and kaku were defeated by on slash from this stance. That's far more impressive than anything luffy has done in gear 2.

For all we know zoro can go back to his normal state after the move hits or misses.

This is unknown, so it's speculation

Now if you want to throw the ''ignore'' word out so casually here's what you ignore

Douriki

No I stated different fighters need different amounts of it, that 1 more thing you ignored.

Lucchi being far more mastered in roukishi techniques.

Kaku is the ranyaku master, jabs is the tekkai master so lucci isn't better than everyone at everything. That's 2 facts you've ignored.

kaku not having full full experience of hid dfs

So from this you are saying he is weaker? He's still stronger than he was before and showed how good he was with the fruit when he fought. Given time he could have become stronger, maybe lucchi strength so he'd give zoro a challenge.

the data book being very dated

ODA's ending is planned out he knows what stats they should have, also read what final end posted up.

Luffy's speech to blueno and lucchi

You mean about being captain wanting to protect his friends? Isn't this what all captains should do? Doesn't mean he will magically be stronger.

soru effectiveness is different depending on user.

Right so I said if zoro can easily dodge kaku's he will be able to keep up with lucchi. You keep ignoring this, thinking I've said something else.

how luffy owning enel and enel beating zoro is very contradictory to 6=6

I explained this earlier, I take it you ignored that too?

even your speculation of m r 1 beating luffy is contradicting 6=6.
there's that word again..what facts? you speculate just as much as anyone else.

Not actually me who said that although I agree Luffy cannot defeat Mr1, since he would be sliced in half if he punched. He would need support from outside means to win.

But techinque can stiil be owned if you have high athletic ability.And plus the cp9(lucchi especially) specialize in techniques.

But a swordsman needs more technique than douriki, give a swords to arnold swarzenegger and give one to some samurai with technique but less power, who wins?

They cp9 are not brawlers.The only one close to a brawler was fukoro and he had weak douriki

They were all hand to hand fighters which I wrote right next to brawlers, I take it you ignored that too?

Thas exactly what I have been talking about also.And 6=6 cantradicts all talks about fighting styles

Why twist my words?

Fighting ability uses everything you have e.g nami's fighting style needs more intelligence so when she fights more of that gets used. Zoro's fighting style needs more dexterity, being a swordsman.

Now even though someone has more than the other thats only because that style demands more of it. Luffy proves having more dexterity doesn't matter for a brawler, since he still fought equally with zoro. While zoro needs that dexterity for his swordsmanship, in the end their fighting ability shows how good a fighter they are.

[Phenomenol]

@AD-HD:

Two things:
1: Asura is way more different move than gear 2. In Asura, Zoro just get more swords. Nothing more. We don't even know is it a state or not.
2. Luffy have gear 3 also.

And Luffy just increases his speed and sacrifices his strength or vice versa in his Gears, nothing more. While Zoro satys balanced with added techniques, Asura turned crap into mist I don't see why you think that is so weak.

@MonkeyDMalcom:

bounties= crime agaisnt the goverment dragon= most wanted not worlds strongest

according to OiP duoriki= athletics

if douriki= power how come sanji was able to beat jyabura

sanji= 20 douriki
jyabura= 1700+

Here you go…...

Aokiji: Your bounty amount isn't ONLY a measurement of how "strong" you are.
It's also an indicator of the level of danger you pose to the government.

ONEinchPUNCH is right Doriki is just a measurement of your "ATHLETICS!" it also was used to gauge the power of the CP9 members. It also can be considered a power level.

@yvj:

Let's take a look at these for a moment

http://www.onepiecehq.com/manga-view…ece-422-11.jpg

From there to here http://www.onepiecehq.com/manga-view…ece-422-11.jpg

I don't see how you can call his Gear Three moves slow on release They look pretty damn quick to me and if we are to take take in acount the massive size of the moves…..Well dude

I need you to explain how you can say Zorro won't get hit by them.

Granted the drawback is that his fist or feet are slow to return to him....but saying Zorro won't get hit

That's a pretty big leap of faith.

This is why Zoro won't get hit…....

Lucci: It seems that your increase in power comes at a COST to your speed. Your fighting style could really use some BALANCE…

Only reason why Luffy was able to hit Lucci with Gear 3 is because he thought he could take it with Tekkai. Zoro won't have that problem. All of their techniques and increase in power still made them EQUAL.

@WolfWood:

ehhh when was it ever made obvious that Shanks is weaker than Mihawk ? so far they have never fought on screen hell weve barley even seen them fight at all and nor do you have a data book rating on which you can base your argument on so i dont see any airtight case for that.

For the simple fact that Mihawk is the STRONGEST swordsman in the world and Shanks is a swordsman. Also Mihawk has LOST interest in Shanks therefore see's Zoro as the successor!!!

[Kma]

@Final:

Edit and shouts outs 2 KMA…..cuz his post had nothing but Canon in it! and they ignored it all.

Hahaha thanks, I havent posted in this thread for a while… been busy watching the anime again

Anyways though one fight I thought was kinda cool was the

Luffy vs Wiper

and then the

Zoro vs Wiper

fights. I know the time they fought each other was probaly too short too determine anything, but they were trading blows equally in both fights. Plus Luffy was at full strength while Zoro had an encouter with Brahm, and got shot in the leg. (I know that this wouldnt have actually affected his fight in anyway since this is manga/anime and this is Zoro)

Haha I think someone that knows japanese should really send a sbs question concerning this too Oda. Either that or a rematch, which i would really like to see.

EDIT:

this is pure speculation on my part but you know how Broggy and Dory are equals and they combined their attacks to kill that giant goldfish?

Well it seems to me like Oda wanted to sort of say the thing thing when Luffy and Zoro combined their attacks to send an energy wave against the Aqua Laguana.

[yvj]

Anyways though one fight I thought was kinda cool was the

Luffy vs Wiper

and then the

Zoro vs Wiper

fights. I know the time they fought each other was probaly too short too determine anything, but they were trading blows equally in both fights. Plus Luffy was at full strength while Zoro had an encouter with Brahm, and got shot in the leg.

So much for the Whiskey peak arguement

[Radical jack]

ODA has his ending planned out, that number is important because he knows the ending and has given each character their strength.

here's how I know this arguemnt is speculation.If in april when yellow book comes out,and the stats change you'll be taking back what you've just said(note I am not argueing against oda planning to whole story out)

Of course it is, amanedachi and kaku were defeated by on slash from this stance. That's far more impressive than anything luffy has done in gear 2.

1:from what it looked like to me he slashed amendachi and kaku multiple times, unless you really think zoro grew six arms you should see it also.

2.I still don't see how how asura is more unusual than evrything he has always does.

gear 2nd in the other hand makes luffy move very differently than he normally does

when we see asura animated I can almost assure that it won;t look impressive as you think

Kaku is the ranyaku master, jabs is the tekkai master so lucci isn't better than everyone at everything. That's 2 facts you've ignored.

Lucchi has displayed high forms of tenkai(hollow tree)
http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-2/chapter421mq.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8839

and rankyaku

http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-2/chapter421mq.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8837

so he can't be that far off lucchi has proven he is better than them in the other techniques
and he is the was the only one to master the rokugun which is the strongest cp9 technique

No I stated different fighters need different amounts of it, that 1 more thing you ignored.

haven't ignored it just replied to that.

So from this you are saying he is weaker? He's still stronger than he was before and showed how good he was with the fruit when he fought. Given time he could have become stronger, maybe lucchi strength so he'd give zoro a challenge.

how much stronger do you think it did really. he was going toe to toe with zoro without it.

lucchi strength? luchhi has had his df for a long time.theres no way Id see him being anywhere near lucchi level

ODA's ending is planned out he knows what stats they should have, also read what final end posted up.

see above post

Right so I said if zoro can easily dodge kaku's he will be able to keep up with lucchi. You keep ignoring this, thinking I've said something else.

1.zoro blocked kakus soru attack,not dodge.and he didn't eaisly block it either.And from what Ive read kaku didn't eaisly lose to zoro.zoro doesn't always have to lose gallons of blood to portray an even match you know

2.lucchi can use soru more effectively than kaku, I can't see zoro being able to keep up forever especially in lean form.

You mean about being captain wanting to protect his friends? Isn't this what all captains should do? Doesn't mean he will magically be stronger.

can somone help me out and get the stephen translation?

In shonen history,when a main chrarcter talks like this it usually means he's stronger than eveyone else.

there's other quotes Ill put out in a minute

Not actually me who said that although I agree Luffy cannot defeat Mr1, since he would be sliced in half if he punched. He would need support from outside means to win.

If there where exactly equal in fighting ability(6=6) luffy would find some way becauser zoro beat him.Im just going by what you wnat me to go by

But a swordsman needs more technique than douriki, give a swords to arnold swarzenegger and give one to some samurai with technique but less power, who wins?

1,Ill take bruce lee over a fencer anyday in a fight.thats a more reasonable comparison

2;this isn't real life, its a manga where people with athletic ability owning a swordsman is quite possible

They were all hand to hand fighters which I wrote right next to brawlers, I take it you ignored that too?

Not only do they use **powers.**One uses a staff,one uses swords,and they all have techniques which turn your body into iron mass,air hop,turn your fingers to bullets,And shoot waves that cut out of their legs.Hand to hand combat indeed

Fighting ability uses everything you have e.g nami's fighting style needs more intelligence so when she fights more of that gets used. Zoro's fighting style needs more dexterity, being a swordsman.

Now even though someone has more than the other thats only because that style demands more of it. Luffy proves having more dexterity doesn't matter for a brawler, since he still fought equally with zoro. While zoro needs that dexterity for his swordsmanship, in the end their fighting ability shows how good a fighter they are.

I thought you said that strength covers everything you need during a fight.Since you throwing the other stats than that throws everything out of proportion

NO^^ you didnt…...why dont you relpy and dismiss what cosmic said?

I'm clarifying what is said in the databook your point.

oh and kma i guess i didn't reply.sorry i mistaked you for black gall, repost it and ill reply

[Final End]

If so, Jack you agree that they are equals?

[Radical jack]

@Final:

If so, Jack you agree that they are equals?

what?

16 characters

[Final End]

Eat this Jack…...............the end of this debate.

@Phenomenol:

SIG MATERIAL!!!!…........

Wrong, don't try and twist my post around. You saying that Oda used a rough estimation is bullocks. 6=6 which means SAME, EQUAL; If I have six jelly beans in one hand and I have six in the other that means that the BALANCE IS EQUAL!!!!!

Luffy and Zoro are equals!

[Radical jack]

@Final:

Eat this Jack…...............the end of this debate.

lololololololol.

NICE(in borats voice) That's your trump card!!

If the scale is so small you can only fit six beans is doesn't mean shit
And it stiil doens'nt prove if one jellybean is poison and one is not

You fail

[zeroxtb]

this thread:

[Kma]

@Radical:

oh and kma i guess i didn't reply.sorry i mistaked you for black gall, repost it and ill reply

O boy this is going to be long…

Actually when you look at it Luffy fighting the strongest guy it is usually just by chance or the fact that Luffy really wants to kick that guys ass.

1. Morgan - actually Zoro owned him

2. Buggy - Zoro actually fought him first but we all know what happened.

3. Kuro - Luffy ordered Zoro to bring Ussopp to Jango, also Luffy was "crushed" when the cat brothers came out

4. Krieg - not there

5. Arlong - Zoro injured

6. Uh Wapol dosent even count

7. Crocodile - Luffy wanted to kick his ass bad, Zoro wasnt even near the scene, Zoro was left with decoy plan and got pitted against Mr. 1

Also notice that in the Red Book is published after Baroque Works saga and Oda states they are equal in Power. So Luffy taking on Croc and Zoro taking out Mr. 1 because Luffy was stronger is a moot point.

8. Bellamy wasnt even a really a main villian and Zoro would have owned him too.

9. Enel - Luffy has a major advantage

In Skypia Luffy, Ussopp, Sanji had trouble with Sattori. Zoro took out Ohm, a stronger priest by himself.

10. Lucci - the ONLY guy SINCE Croc. Even then its caus Luffy really wanted to kick his ass too.

I excluded Foxy cause that was a captain vs captain duel and Zoro would have owned him too. Didnt even bother with Blueno who has a much lower Douriki then Kaku.

My point is ever since East Blue, there has only been 2 valid MAIN enemies where Luffy takes on the stronger guy.

Croc and Lucci. And notice how after the Red Book is after Crocodile so they were still equal then and whos to say its not the same trend after Enies Lobby?

@Kma:

First off just in case people havent seen it:

Luffy's Attributes
Zoro's Attributes

Now first off… Please stop using Enel, Luffy had a HUGE advantage over him compared to Zoro. If you were unharmed by someones MAIN method of fighting is that not considered an advantage?

Also I've said this many times before... Other then Crocodile, there has only been a TWO other main enemies. Enel and Lucci, everyone else, Foxy, Aoi Koji, and small people like Blueno, Bellamy don't count. (like I said before Enel dosent even really count)

So saying Luffy always gets the STRONGER people is kind of weird because that has only happened TWICE after Crocodile. NOT COUNTING EAST BLUE cause there is no reason too.

Also the DATA book (notice how its called DATA, means we're not pulling random stuff out of our ass) is after Crocodile. So if Oda still considered Luffy and Zoro having the same POWER after Luffy fighting a stronger opponent is irrelevent.

Now we all know they are growing stronger. For example Luffy had trouble with Sattori, probaly the weakest priest except for Gedatsou. Zoro on the other hand took out Ohm the strongest priest.

Also don't always say captain is the strongest. Zoro is more of a lone wolf. Always has been, probaly always will be. Luffy is his captain because he let him be not because POWER dictates otherwise. Letting someone be his captain does not jeopardize him dream.

There was a post saying if Luffy and Zoro did fight again and Luffy won we would still be crapping out words like Zoro is equal.
Funny it hasnt happened but you know what has? LUFFY AND ZORO TYING each other in a fight. Yet we're the ones getting called naive...

I know in real life there would always be a victor. BUT THIS IS MANGA.

Would you say Broggy and Dory are equal? I would so why can't Luffy and Zoro be equal?

Sidenote:

Hey Hawkeye thanks for the comments!
Haha abz welcome back.
Now gotta get back to studying midterm... Dammit I like debates...

@Kma:

They are EQUAL.

In the RED book the japanese character they use more directly translate to power. Now if it meant strength alone I would be reluctant to say it means as much but power is a combination of speed and strength. Power is how much force you can apply in a time interval. THIS IS CRITICAL IN FIGHTS. STRENGTH ALONE WONT DO YOU ANY GOOD IF YOU CANT LAND A HIT.

Also sure Luffy gets the stronger guys. As seen in the battle against Croc.

But this book was created AFTER THAT!

Why did ODA STATE THEY HAVE THE SAME POWER LEVEL AFTERWARDS?

The same trend has continued so it isnt valid to say just because he gets the stronger opponents means he is stronger. Simply put Luffy just always wants to kick the stronger guys ass.

Other then Croc there is ONLY ONE person Luffy beat that is stronger then Zoro's opponent. Lucci. Enel does not count caus Luffy had an advantage over Zoro here.

Is there actually anyone else? Zoro could have owned Bellamy, Foxy, and Blueno. Also notice how Zoro beat Ohm who is stronger then Sattori? Luffy didnt even beat him one on one. I know Luffy probaly would have beat him one on one but still… Also Sattori got some huge hits on him.

They are both getting so much stronger! BOTH OF THEM are growing equally!! The promise Zoro made to Mihawk and Luffy. Hes stubborn as hell, he wont let Luffy outgrow him.

Have you seen how much Zoro has evolved? He is now shooting out beams, creating devil illusions! Jumping in front of the rocket man and accerelerating past it!

Until Whiskey peak I thought for sure Luffy was stronger. In East Blue Zoro did not seem as strong cause pretty much in all his fights he had a major disadvantage.

Oda used Whiskey Peak as a statement. They are equal. This picture just screams it:

Luffy vs Zoro

several chapters later it still seems like Oda is making that statement.

Luffy and Zoro

Also Im just wondering have you seen the anime version of that fight? I know the anime isnt done by Oda but if you watch it they both wanted to kill each other, BAD. Saying Luffy was not serious in that fight is BULLOCKS. Each blow was a deadly.

There was more stuff I wanted to add but it seems I have forgotten.

I apologize if sound angry or trying to flame someone. I respect your guys opinions but I just want to state some of my opinions. It always seems like my posts get ignored so Im trying to be more aggressive .

@Kma:

FFA I agree with you completely.

Zoro was introduced so early because he is like the other main character.
Luffy and Zoro need to grow the most in terms of combat abilities and were introduced so early as equals. They are growing alongside each other as the story continues they will be the strongest people when they reach their dreams.

@Kma:

OK Im going to try to break it up into why I think Zoro and Luffy are equals or roughly equals… Please bear with me

Strength: Zoro First lets define strength. Strength is not Power, Strength does not factor in speed, thats power.
In Gear 3 Luffy wins. But In Gear 3 we know this compromises speed and is unrealistic against an opponent like Zoro.
I do Shaolin so therefore I also use swords. In swords you need more strength to do certain stances, techniques.
That is why Zoro trains so much with weights. In a strength ALONE contest I would say Zoro wins against base Luffy and gear 2. Gear 3 is a different story however. I would say Zoro wins by a margin, to me hes done more bouts of strength. (PLEASE DONT GET THIS CONFUSED WITH POWER).
NOT SAYING LUFFY DOSENT HAVE STRENGTH! HES CRAZY STRONG!

Power: Luffy In my opinion, power is much more valuable in combat. Luffy to me wins this one. Pushing apart two buildings is a display of power. Power is immediate. Also when you throw a punch you get much more power if you are able have a larger distance to accelerate. Luffys DF helps here. (also why i think the gomu gomu fruit is the perfect one for a brawler). AGAIN ZORO IS CRAZY POWERFUL!

Technique: TIED
An extremely tough call. We all know Zoros sword techniques. Also using swords requires a bit more coordination, awareness, etc. He can also shoot stuff from his sword! Luffy however also has alot of techniques. His techniques allow him to take out more soldiers at once, eg storm, firework. He also has many deathblows too for a single opponent. Bazooka, rifle, etc. Zoro also has this for single opponents and multiple. However I think Luffy has an edge in multiple. BUT Zoro's got that breath of all things… Hes also very diverse, ie in Groggy ring he did a swordless style whirlwind, fend off Sanji with just his fists, etc.

Control: Zoro Again swordmanship requires more control of your techniques and self in this one. Luffy isnt a "pure martial artist" hes more of a brawler and goes wild. This sometimes puts him in a disadvantage. Even though Zoro lusts for battle (eg when Kaku comments on his sword), a samurai must always remain calm and collected. He did lose himself when Kaku became a giraffe and recognized that. He told himself he must train more but for sure he has already gotten better at that.

Speed: Luffy They are both fricking fast. In their base I would say they are tied. When Zoro does his attacks though he goes incredibly fast. Eg when he finished T bone he jump in front of the rocketman and accelerated past it. His oni giri pretty seems like a "teleport." However when Luffy goes gear two I would say he's faster.

Defense: Zoro
Defense is incredibly important. Ever heard the saying for sports, Defence wins games? My coach for Rugby said that all the time. Zoro here is the winner because it is alot easier to defend yourself with swords. So even though Luffy can throw a punch at high speeds, eg Gear two, Zoro is able to react to that with a sword defense. Luffy usually barely concentrates on defense, hes always rushing in.

There are more categories I would like to go into… eg, Agility, Intelligence, Durability, Will to win but I got a midterm tommorow so…

Anyways guys stop flaming each other, I thought at first this was interesting cause naturally people disagree with each other but now its just turned into people insulting peoples opinions.

There might be some more but thats most of it.

EDIT:

Look at my avatar. Luffy vs Zoro and equaling in a colourwalk? Why not with someone like Sanji? Coincidental? I think not (this colourwalk happened in Enies Lobby)

[Final End]

@Radical:

lololololololol.

NICE(in borats voice) That's your trump card!!

If the scale is so small you can only fit six beans is doesn't mean shit
And it stiil doens'nt prove if one jellybean is poison and one is not

You fail

LOL this is the worse reply in history!

So I guess Zoro has aids or something?

Infact they are equals and you fail to prove that they are not.

6 = 6

Only a fool would say something like 6 dont equal 6. (in borats voice)

your sad…....you have no argument.

[gamistras]

This post is deleted!

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@Radical:

here's how I know this arguemnt is speculation.If in april when yellow book comes out,and the stats change you'll be taking back what you've just said(note I am not argueing against oda planning to whole story out)

Did you forget you agreed to @#$% the yellow book with $abz

The red book is correct until changed, or do you want to @#$% this one too?

1:from what it looked like to me he slashed amendachi and kaku multiple times, unless you really think zoro grew six arms you should see it also.

LoL whatever it was, I meant one move

2.I still don't see how how asura is more unusual than evrything he has always does.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's false, it's a fact it easily went though amanedachi a move jabs the "TEKKAI MASTER" ran away from and a move the tower couldn't handle. It then went on to finish kaku, you can't say it isn't impressive.

gear 2nd in the other hand makes luffy move very differently than he normally does

Blueno handled gear2 to a certain degree, luffy almost tryed gear 3. Zoros asura finshed kaku instantly.

when we see asura animated I can almost assure that it won;t look impressive as you think

I don't mind what it looks like, it's what it's done that matters that is impressive.

Lucchi has displayed high forms of tenkai(hollow tree)
http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-2/chapter421mq.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8839

and rankyaku

http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-2/chapter421mq.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=8837

so he can't be that far off lucchi has proven he is better than them in the other techniques
and he is the was the only one to master the rokugun which is the strongest cp9 technique

Strongest in direct attacking power yes, you forget all techniques serve a different purpose. Rankyaku was very flexible and versatile when kaku used it he was un-rivaled. Jabs had the best tekkai he could WALK! while using it. Sanji couldn't break it he used heat since tekai only blocks physical blows.

Yet he ran from amanedachi.

haven't ignored it just replied to that.

You ignored the point, or maybe missed the point

how much stronger do you think it did really. he was going toe to toe with zoro without it.

Zoro didn't have his bandanna on and was getting the better of him as the fight continued. This was without the use of any of his best moves.

lucchi strength? luchhi has had his df for a long time.theres no way Id see him being anywhere near lucchi level

It's unknown what kaku could achieve.

see above post

Oh the one where you @#$% the data books?

1.zoro blocked kakus soru attack,not dodge.and he didn't eaisly block it either.

Zoro hardly needed to move to block soru, he resembled mihawk in the baratie arc. It was in no hard for zoro he didn't even have his bandanna on.

And from what Ive read kaku didn't eaisly lose to zoro.zoro doesn't always have to lose gallons of blood to portray an even match you know

Zoro just couldn't cut him, that was the only problem. Zoro wasn't pushed at all in that fight. It reminds me of the ohm fight wasn't too much of a problem, mr1 is the sign of a tough battle and kaku wasn't one.

2.lucchi can use soru more effectively than kaku, I can't see zoro being able to keep up forever especially in lean form.

With what zoro did to kaku's soru zoro with his bandanna on could keep up with lucci.

In shonen history,when a main chrarcter talks like this it usually means he's stronger than eveyone else.

Not really look at goku, gohan ended up stronger than him (although in the ten years after buu's defeat I bet goku is stronger)

If there where exactly equal in fighting ability(6=6) luffy would find some way becauser zoro beat him.Im just going by what you wnat me to go by

When we use mr1 we're just countering when you lot won't accept luffy winning thanks to rubber in the enel fight. If luffy were to win it wouldn' be from punches though, that's why whatever is said would be speculation.

1,Ill take bruce lee over a fencer anyday in a fight.thats a more reasonable comparison

Would you? Although I am extremely biased towards bruce lee, I don't think he'd beat a good fencer( which is what I said in the last post)

2;this isn't real life, its a manga where people with athletic ability owning a swordsman is quite possible

Not when the swordsman equals luffy

Not only do they use **powers.**One uses a staff,one uses swords,and they all have techniques which turn your body into iron mass,air hop,turn your fingers to bullets,And shoot waves that cut out of their legs.Hand to hand combat indeed

But their best moves where all martial arts attacks, that is my basic message which you never understand.

I thought you said that strength covers everything you need during a fight.Since you throwing the other stats than that throws everything out of proportion

And how is a strength stat determined? From how they fight, one can use as much intelligence as they want to fight. But compared to luffy if they are a 1 in strength it shows there style is inferior.

All the other stats are just used in their style but the strength is the the combined efforts of what those others achieve with thier style. Like I said before luffy needs less DEX while zor needs more for swordsmanship. But luffys style still equals zoro since his requires less DEX.

So do you understand now? Nami having more intelligence doesn't make her strength stat go up it's still a 1. So her fighting ability isn't as good

[Final End]

And on top of that Jack your fighting in a war that been over…..

@CosmicDebris:

Listen guys - if Oda said it at any point in One Piece history, it's true until he says otherwise. NOT the other way around. If you want to believe that information about Luffy and Zoro is outdated, that's your prerogative, but you can't make any argument for it until new information is presented. It's completely pointless.

Edit: Jack you have yet to disprove my last post…....that proves they are equals heck its stated in the data book.

Edit:Reps to Kma, that post is going to get ignored, but its cool Kma......you know what it means when people ignore yo ST......it means they cant F* with ya!

Reps to KMA!

[Archtyrant]

This thread just shows the different perspectives that people have in life.

I guess there's no arguing against the different beliefs we have in life.

[Final End]

@Archtyrant:

This thread just shows the different perspectives that people have in life.

I guess there's no arguing against the different beliefs we have in life.

Well in the world of One Piece…......there is only one God! and that is Oda!, his word is above all.

[Pants-eater]

For some reason, I keep thinking of a little clique of people who spend their entire time talking about how cool their clothes or complimenting other on their make up and arguing about Jumpers vs. Sweaters. Then they point and giggle about how rich and famous the guy who just walked past them was.

Excpet in here, it's a little clique of people who keep talking about how cool their canon is or complimenting each other on their posts and arguing about Character X vs. Character Y. Then they bow and worship the mod that just posted and giggle nervously.

[Phenomenol]

@Pants-eater:

For some reason, I keep thinking of a little clique of people who spend their entire time talking about how cool their clothes or complimenting other on their make up and arguing about Jumpers vs. Sweaters. Then they point and giggle about how rich and famous the guy who just walked past them was.

You ever post in a so called "intelligent thread?" A "clique" of people do what you are talking about all the time!

Data Book and Manga is always correct, don't hate because some people here go off of facts.

[SabZ]

Wigan 1-0 Newcaslte United!!!!

Oh My God! Wigan are a better team than Newcastle United overall because they won in one single match!!!! wtf!!!!

When infact, Newcaslte are the better team…

Low figures do not prove anything. Oda NEVER said that the number 6 wasn't a sixth of the SH PLs.

Therefore you can't back up the chart.

[Phenomenol]

@$abZ:

Wigan 1-0 Newcaslte United!!!!

Oh My God! Wigan are a better team than Newcastle United overall because they won in one single match!!!! wtf!!!!

When infact, Newcaslte are the better team…

Low figures do not prove anything. Oda NEVER said that the number 6 wasn't a sixth of the SH PLs.

Therefore you can't back up the chart.

Except this is NOT a soccer game! Anything can happen in a TEAM sport. You have a bunch of other team mates to rely on and abunch of teammates that can MESS you up as well. Alot of things can factor into a ball game (officials, etc), so going off of a score that does NOT represent the teams skills or abilities is false analogy.

Luffy and Zoro are in MORTAL COMBAT, one on one fight and nobody to depend on but their OWN individual statistics. Luffy and Zoro's Strength is 6 and they tied in a fight, therefore EQUAL in Strength. Or we can say that Mihawk is STRONGER than Shanks.

[Final End]

@$abZ:

Wigan 1-0 Newcaslte United!!!!

Oh My God! Wigan are a better team than Newcastle United overall because they won in one single match!!!! wtf!!!!

When infact, Newcaslte are the better team…

Low figures do not prove anything. Oda NEVER said that the number 6 wasn't a sixth of the SH PLs.

Therefore you can't back up the chart.

Are you slow? what makes them equals is them both having a six, if Luffy and Zoro both had a 10000000000000 they be equals because they both have the same number. If Oda wanted luffy to be stronger then Zoro then they would not have the same number! I dont care if they both had 2 they are equals! just cuz you think 6 is small that dont change the FACT that they are equals!

BTW smart guy, if Oda never said that the number 6 is a sixth then why the hell are you acting like he did??:whistling:

[BlackGalleon1]

@$abZ:

Wigan 1-0 Newcaslte United!!!!

Oh My God! Wigan are a better team than Newcastle United overall because they won in one single match!!!! wtf!!!!

When infact, Newcaslte are the better team…

Low figures do not prove anything. Oda NEVER said that the number 6 wasn't a sixth of the SH PLs.

Therefore you can't back up the chart.

Dude, as much as I don't want to want to get involved in this argument, I have to comment on this example. In a football game (or soccer- damn you americans) there are a lot of pobabilities and statistics that can affect the result. However, in a manga such as One Piece, those statisics and probabilities are not involved in deciding who/what wins/looses. These events happen because the mangaka wants them to, no other reason. Just thought I should point this out.

[Final End]

Well BlackGalleon1 thats been pointed out a few times, and all Sabz is going to do is ignore it, and post as if no one dismissed his lame post.

[AD-HD Pirate]

It doesn't matter what chart says. Why?
Because it's old. Anyone with a brains can understand that things have changed.

[Final End]

@ AD HD…................

@CosmicDebris:

Listen guys - if Oda said it at any point in One Piece history, it's true until he says otherwise. NOT the other way around. If you want to believe that information about Luffy and Zoro is outdated, that's your prerogative, but you can't make any argument for it until new information is presented. It's completely pointless.

[AD-HD Pirate]

I just have to disagree with CosmicDebris. I'm sure she won't mind of that.

[Final End]

@AD-HD:

I just have to disagree with CosmicDebris. I'm sure he won't mind of that.

You disagree!:shocked: I always thought you would agree with others? anyway you an go right ahead and disagree with what Oda has said, but going by your Logic I guess Mihawk is stronger and not equal with Shanks, and Whitebeard is not the strongest man in the world because that info is Old.

Luffy and Zoro are equals.

[BlackGalleon1]

AD-HD, Cosmic's a girl, a really cute one at that. However thats not the point. I would hereby like to change the subject (if thats possible). Since this is an 'anything goes' debate, I wanted to put forward the unresolved matter (due to thread closure) of the three great powers. I am swayed to believe the are all equal, well the 7bukai a bit lower because of the loss of Croc. However, if you disagree, please explain why.

[AD-HD Pirate]

AD-HD, Cosmic's a girl, a really cute one at that.

Ah, sorry about that. In Finland we don't use "he" or "she" words.
And gongratulations about your baby. If that title isn't a fake one, of course.
:D

About 3 world powers…
I don't know. I have always felt that Yonkous are a strongest power.
As a Dragon fan, I have always wondered that how powerful his army is when you compare it to the world powers. What do you think, BlackGalleon1?

[SabZ]

The football game was just an example. Like as in… if one team dominates the game but loses by a scrappy goal, does the final result make them the worse team overall? No.

The chart is the same. 6 for both Luffy and Zoro can be decieving, mainly because Oda never mentioned anything about how he constructed the chart or came to the conclusion.

Therefore, as much as 6 does equal 6, we don't know if Oda intended it that way, or actually meant Luffy to be stronger… making 6 a sixth of the overall SH power levels. A sixth is a variety of numbers... and Luffy could have been at a higher end of 6.

Until you prove to me that Oda didn't do maths, then it still stands. He didn't mention anything about it, but he also didn't say that he didn't do it.

That, is how your chart doesn't fully (100%) clear up Luffy = Zoro, and waiting for a quote would be more significant.

[Final End]

The football game was just an example. Like as in… if one team dominates the game but loses by a scrappy goal, does the final result make them the worse team overall? No.

Teams…....since when is Zoro and Luffy 2 teams?

The chart is the same. 6 for both Luffy and Zoro can be decieving, mainly because Oda never mentioned anything about how he constructed the chart or came to the conclusion.

So, how do you know the chart is decieving? Did Oda hit you up one day on your cell and tell you?

Therefore, as much as 6 does equal 6, we don't know if Oda intended it that way, or actually meant Luffy to be stronger… making 6 a sixth of the overall SH power levels. A sixth is a variety of numbers... and Luffy could have been at a higher end of 6.

is 6 a sixth on the chart? NO! if Oda wanted Luffy to be stronger then Zoro then they would not have the same number.

Until you prove to me that Oda didn't do maths, then it still stands. He didn't mention anything about it, but he also didn't say that he didn't do it.

LOL you have no argument! going by your logic since BB didnt eat someone or mention that he loves to eat people I guess he can?

That, is how your chart doesn't fully (100%) clear up Luffy = Zoro, and waiting for a quote would be more significant.

6 = 6 Luffy infact go read KMA's last post!

and also if funny how you ignore 3 post aimed at you.

[SabZ]

@Final:

Teams…....since when is Zoro and Luffy 2 teams?

is 6 a sixth on the chart? NO! if Oda wanted Luffy to be stronger then Zoro then they would not have the same number.

Oda may have just wanted to show a rough overview on the SHs. Did he call you up and say "hey, I'm going to create a chart to show Luffy = Zoro!!! lololol". No. In my opinion, Oda didn't really intend to use the chart to show Luffy > Zoro or Luffy = Zoro. He most likely just wanted to show rough attributes for the SHs.

If he wanted to show, in detail, the difference between Luffy and Zoro… and the other SHs, I assure you the numbers would be higher to get a clearer message out to the audience.

@Final:

and also if funny how you ignore 3 post aimed at you.

No I didn't, I just didn't quote them. Guess you didn't really read my post too well.

[Final End]

Oda may have just wanted to show a rough overview on the SHs. Did he call you up and say "hey, I'm going to create a chart to show Luffy = Zoro!!! lololol". No. In my opinion, Oda didn't really intend to use the chart to show Luffy > Zoro or Luffy = Zoro. He most likely just wanted to show rough attributes for the SHs.

Where in the data book did it say it is a "rough overview?" NO! stop making #$% up.

6 = 6

If he wanted to show, in detail, the difference between Luffy and Zoro… and the other SHs, I assure you the numbers would be higher to get a clearer message out to the audience.

Would it matter?????NO!, what makes Luffy and Zoro equals is that they both have the same number! 6 = 6

No I didn't, I just didn't quote them. Guess you didn't really read my post too well.

LOL you didnt answer anything!….....man you love making @$%^ up.

[SabZ]

@Final:

Did it say it was a "rough overview?" NO! stop making #$% up.

6 = 6

Lame.

Did it say it wasn't a rough overview?

@Final:

Would it matter?????NO!, what makes Luffy and Zoro equals is that they both have the same number!

I've answered that. Try reading my post… then reply.

@Final:

LOL you didnt quote anything!….....man you love making @$%^ up.

Care to explain what you mean?

Oh I see… because I didn't quote it... there's no way in hell I aimed my post to anyone.

[Final End]

Lame.

Yea you are?

Did it say it wasn't a rough overview?

Hell yea its not! if the data book dont say its a "rough overview" then it is not!

I've answered that. Try reading my post… then reply.

You didnt answer anything.

[SabZ]

@Final:

Hell yea its not! if the data book dont say its a "rough overview" then it is not!

That's speculation.

[lucchi's mustache]

you guys know that youre never going to agree… so just grow up and give it a rest.

[SabZ]

@lucchi's:

you guys know that youre never going to agree… so just grow up and give it a rest.

I try… but it's not me coming up with these smart-ass remarks which can be regarded as flaming.

Anyway, I can't quit. Don't do that. It's too hard...

[ONEinchPUNCH]

@$abZ:

Lame.

Did it say it wasn't a rough overview?

YOU!!!!

Have you forgotten my other post? If a chart isn't what it says, it must be specified. E.g Graph not to scale, so you are wrong if yours isn't mentioned it means you are speculating.While Oda's is protected by law.

I've answered that. Try reading my post… then reply.

You answered with a false theory that doesn't counter law.

[Final End]

@$abZ:

That's speculation.

LMAO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Does the data book say its a "rough overview??????" NO!

It would be if the data book said it was!

[AD-HD Pirate]

WHITEBE… I'm sorry, Final End is having a bad mood today.

[SabZ]

@ONEinchPUNCH:

YOU!!!!

Have you forgotten my other post? If a chart isn't what it says, it must be specified. E.g Graph not to scale, so you are wrong if yours isn't mentioned it means you are speculating.While Oda's is protected by law.

If I'm speculating that it is a rough overview, then you are speculating that it isn't.

Oda said nothing about how he contructed it. That's where the flaw in your theory begins. Is 6 fixed, or a sixth? We don't know.

[Final End]

If I'm speculating that it is a rough overview, then you are speculating that it isn't.

WTF? where in the world does it say in the the data book that it is a rough overview? if it does not say that its not CANON! whivh means you like to make @#$% up! Infact Why dont you call Oda up to help you out!

Oda said nothing about how he contructed it. That's where the flaw in your theory begins. Is 6 fixed, or a sixth? We don't know.

Where does it say that? its a sixth? I see a six….that means its canon, all you got is guess work.

[Paulie]

Every time I see this thread, I lose faith in humanity.

[SabZ]

Final End… get this in your head...

Oda doesn't say if 6 is fixed or a sixth... so you're in the same position as me. He also never says that he didn't use maths.

EDIT: Humanity is at its end.