Kingdom

Mizrath

@Purple:

I was thinking either it was the queen's people because they're setting up for an invasion of kanyou on Sei's rise, but Ryofui is also an equally good option

That's not a bad idea, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me story wise. We've had no indication that the queen knows of the relationship between Sei and the Hi Shin Unit, and keeping that in mind what would the Hi Shin losing a battle accomplish for the Queen? Not being able to take that one city might allow the Wei to push back to Tou might have to spread out his forces more or they might need more reinforcements giving the Queen a better chance to attack, but it just feels like an extremely specific plan for her to then randomly choose the one unit in the whole army that has a special relationship to her son. I dunno to much of a coincidence if thats how it is.

Purple Hermit

@Mizrath:

That's not a bad idea, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me story wise. We've had no indication that the queen knows of the relationship between Sei and the Hi Shin Unit, and keeping that in mind what would the Hi Shin losing a battle accomplish for the Queen? Not being able to take that one city might allow the Wei to push back to Tou might have to spread out his forces more or they might need more reinforcements giving the Queen a better chance to attack, but it just feels like an extremely specific plan for her to then randomly choose the one unit in the whole army that has a special relationship to her son. I dunno to much of a coincidence if thats how it is.

I was thinking she was fucking with everyone's info so that nobody comes to Sei's aid when Ai launches their surprise birthday party for Sei.

zym

We all know Sei will live, unless they decide to make either Ryo or Queen Mother pick up the reins and unify China hah. I do hope the coming of age ceremony is as insane as the buildup. I want to see Sei start making some morally ambiguous decisions that start affecting the unification as a whole.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Darth

@zym:

We all know Sei will live, unless they decide to make either Ryo or Queen Mother pick up the reins and unify China hah. I do hope the coming of age ceremony is as insane as the buildup. I want to see Sei start making some morally ambiguous decisions that start affecting the unification as a whole.

We all know what happened. What's important is how Hara decides to do it. There are varieables here, we just don't know them. He had… not so much changed, but expanded upon things before.

I would like if the things happened as they did in history, but we shall see.

trappedolphin

Hello!

I started reading the manga totally randomly because I was bored and it looked like it had a lot of chapters. Ended up binge-reading everything in a few days. Love a lot about it. Harem queen and Rou Ai annoy me though. The extra attention on their backstories hasn't really made me feel any more sympathy for them. The story keeps coming up with new Generals of the Week but the plot is usually interesting and exciting so I don't mind. The coalition arc is probably one of my favourites so far. Sei was fantastic at the last battleground. I do like that they frequently switch between battle scenes and political plots. Too much of either gets tiring and I think the balance is pretty decent.

I didn't read the whole thread as I don't want to stumble onto historical spoilers so apologies if this was already discussed to death. I kinda sorta wish they were translating the names to Chinese instead of Japanese, though that's probably just a personal thing. I'm not sure if the Japanese translations keep the same meaning, but some of the original Chinese names are pretty cool. Like, the Xin for Shin means belief or trust. Fei Xin = Soaring/Flying Conviction/Trust, and it kind of sounds cooler than Hi Shin to me. :P (I read some wiki page that said Hi Shin means Flying Arrow, but his Xin definitely doesn't mean anything like arrow.) But that's just a whimsical thing. Fei is the word on their flags, so that's pretty cool to see. Sei's Ying means win/victory. The Ou surname is Wang for King. Ouki's name, Wang Yi, means King's Chair. I think Ousen's Wang Jian could mean King's sword, I'm not so sure of that word in traditional Chinese. It probably means something that cuts.\

sabret00the

I know the Kingdom chapter looks boring, but I'm still surprised at the lack of summary here.

sabret00the

@trappedolphin:

Hello!

I started reading the manga totally randomly because I was bored and it looked like it had a lot of chapters. Ended up binge-reading everything in a few days. Love a lot about it. Harem queen and Rou Ai annoy me though. The extra attention on their backstories hasn't really made me feel any more sympathy for them. The story keeps coming up with new Generals of the Week but the plot is usually interesting and exciting so I don't mind. The coalition arc is probably one of my favourites so far. Sei was fantastic at the last battleground. I do like that they frequently switch between battle scenes and political plots. Too much of either gets tiring and I think the balance is pretty decent.

I didn't read the whole thread as I don't want to stumble onto historical spoilers so apologies if this was already discussed to death. I kinda sorta wish they were translating the names to Chinese instead of Japanese, though that's probably just a personal thing. I'm not sure if the Japanese translations keep the same meaning, but some of the original Chinese names are pretty cool. Like, the Xin for Shin means belief or trust. Fei Xin = Soaring/Flying Conviction/Trust, and it kind of sounds cooler than Hi Shin to me. :P (I read some wiki page that said Hi Shin means Flying Arrow, but his Xin definitely doesn't mean anything like arrow.) But that's just a whimsical thing. Fei is the word on their flags, so that's pretty cool to see. Sei's Ying means win/victory. The Ou surname is Wang for King. Ouki's name, Wang Yi, means King's Chair. I think Ousen's Wang Jian could mean King's sword, I'm not so sure of that word in traditional Chinese. It probably means something that cuts.\

Cheers for the extra information. I really like King's Chair.

Darth

Jian is actually a type of sword used in China. So yeah, that would about correct.

Speaking of weapons, while story itself is rather well researched, I've noticed interesting historical innaccuracy.

Majority of high ranking officers in the story use something that is refered to as Glaives, but is in actuality a Guandao. You may ask why would that pose a problem. Well… the story takes place five centuries before that weapon even takes it's legendary beginnings of being first forged by Guan Yu, as per Romance of Three Kingdoms. And it's even questionable there.

Not that I mind, glaives are awesome. But it is an interesting thing to note nonetheless.

sabret00the

@Darth:

Jian is actually a type of sword used in China. So yeah, that would about correct.

Speaking of weapons, while story itself is rather well researched, I've noticed interesting historical innaccuracy.

Majority of high ranking officers in the story use something that is refered to as Glaives, but is in actuality a Guandao. You may ask why would that pose a problem. Well… the story takes place five centuries before that weapon even takes it's legendary beginnings of being first forged by Guan Yu, as per Romance of Three Kingdoms. And it's even questionable there.

Not that I mind, glaives are awesome. But it is an interesting thing to note nonetheless.

What's the difference? wiki says they're incredibly similar.

Darth

@sabret00the:

What's the difference? wiki says they're incredibly similar.

You, between Glaives and Guandao? There isn't really much of it, altough Guandao tend to have more unified shapes then Glaives as the group do.

Point being, Guandao are the Glaives for that region of the world, and they weren't invented till five centuries later, and haven't become common for more then millenium.

Razh

Next you'll tell me Houken didn't exist! :getlost:

Darth

@Razh:

Next you'll tell me Houken didn't exist! :getlost:

… He did exist. Pang Nuan, Houken is a real person.

Gatekeeper

Don't know if that's sarcasm but I think Aohige mentioned he did exist and the Shiji does have some info on him.

Razh

I was joking, I think I saw it somewhere.

But how much of the real person is transferred to our Houken. I gather he was a real general, not like our Houken who is appointed as one just for being an OP fighter.

And most important of all, what weapon did he use? :ninja:

Darth

@Razh:

I was joking, I think I saw it somewhere.

But how much of the real person is transferred to our Houken. I gather he was a real general, not like our Houken who is appointed as one just for being an OP fighter.

And most important of all, what weapon did he use? :ninja:

Heh, Shiji does not have that kind of details. :happy:

And the Guandao things just struck me as odd, since they are so tied to Guan Yu, who has lived so many hundreds years afterwards. Just a small inconsistency I would not notice otherwise.

Razh

Hara probably thinks they are awesome or likes the concept of dueling with them on horsebacks.

Don't know why he likes those horse duels that much, considering he's not so good at drawing them (horses). Guess he's persistant.

Darth

@Razh:

Hara probably thinks they are awesome or likes the concept of dueling with them on horsebacks.

Don't know why he likes those horse duels that much, considering he's not so good at drawing them (horses). Guess he's persistant.

Well, I agree with him there. And the horse duels are more of a officer thing that era, to there is that.

sabret00the

@Darth:

You, between Glaives and Guandao? There isn't really much of it, altough Guandao tend to have more unified shapes then Glaives as the group do.

Point being, Guandao are the Glaives for that region of the world, and they weren't invented till five centuries later, and haven't become common for more then millenium.

That's super interesting. You'd think such weapons were around since the birth of swords.

zym

Chapter out on batoto

sabret00the

I'm guessing the invading force will be arse-fucked and completely wiped out.

Bellamy_

Probably Sei and Shoubunkun will outplay Ryofui and his 4 pillars also will betray him… The Sei Faction now must have a plan, they where always just reacting to Ryofuis plans... Now they will outplay him, so i hope!

OverPowered_

If Ryofui is finally using force then things are going to get dicey, Moubu is a freaking beast.

Myu

Moubu will die if he allies with Ryofui. Since Sei will win, he would automatically execute him. I hope he just won't with his strategist friend.

OverPowered_

Moubu is already allied with Ryofui, he's one of the pillars. But who in Qin would even be able to defeat or restrain him. Shouheikun is an enigma, sometimes he does things that doesn't directly support Ryofui. Like that one time he decided to make Ouki commander instead of Moubu.

sabret00the

Come the frig on, you're not gonna put the killing of the three generations on Ryufoi, surely not? I'm not standing for it. You have to show the darker and more real side of Sei at some point.

Mizrath

@Myu:

Moubu will die if he allies with Ryofui. Since Sei will win, he would automatically execute him. I hope he just won't with his strategist friend.

Historically speaking, and considering the one-shot chapter, we know Moubu's not getting executed for this. That said if we considered as something that could happen I think it would be really unlikely just because Moubu is way to valuable for Qin as a general and as a public figure.

Phoenix Zoan

@sabret00the:

Come the frig on, you're not gonna put the killing of the three generations on Ryufoi, surely not? I'm not standing for it. You have to show the darker and more real side of Sei at some point.

Dark Sei isn't going to happen. The author said way in the beginning of that you won't be seeing the evil Sei as depicted in history.

Darth

This thing is actually described quite well in history. And I really hope Hara will not white out some of Sei's historical actions. I prefer more ambigious characters.

And it's a Seinen for a reason… let's bloody well use it.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Phoenix:

Dark Sei isn't going to happen. The author said way in the beginning of that you won't be seeing the evil Sei as depicted in history.

Source for that would be nice.

Phoenix Zoan

It was way a long time ago so I wouldn't remember where I read it. But considering so far Hara has depicted Sei as a "good" king, Sei turning evil would be out of character. Plus, Shin would end up butting heads with Sei if he started acting crazy. Shin tried to kill that one captain that wanted to to rape and pillage a village after they won that one battle. Shin would loss it if Sei went on a murdering spree just for the lulz.

Darth

@Phoenix:

It was way a long time ago so I wouldn't remember where I read it. But considering so far Hara has depicted Sei as a "good" king, Sei turning evil would be out of character. Plus, Shin would end up butting heads with Sei if he started acting crazy. Shin tried to kill that one captain that wanted to to rape and pillage a village after they won that one battle. Shin would loss it if Sei went on a murdering spree just for the lulz.

We are not talking about murdering spree out of being crazy. We are talking about law. It's one thing murdering people just cause, and another to allow leaders of the rebelion to get away free. Even if they were manipulated into it.

How can you unify China, if you don't even follow your own laws?

Phoenix Zoan

@Darth:

We are not talking about murdering spree out of being crazy. We are talking about law. It's one thing murdering people just cause, and another to allow leaders of the rebelion to get away free. Even if they were manipulated into it.

How can you unify China, if you don't even follow your own laws?

Sei dosn't have to turn evil to unify China. However Hara is going to depict it how this arc ends, whatever Sei does will be "justified". He's not going to make the people hate Sei for his actions. You'll probably see Sei broken up that his mom was killed at the end of this rebellion. Sei won't be depicted as an emotionless king that is passing judgement becuase it's the law especially with his mother being one of the traitors this arc.

With Shin out of the picture, we're going to have a seige story arc with the kingdom most likely being overrun. Sei will do his "we must not give up speech" which will rouse the people and they'll fight back. Sei will be seen as a hero by the people and while turning some of the other factions to his side since they saved him. A previous chapter had the people in the audience talking about how amazing he looked when he entered the throne room. Sei's actions will sway people. And if an execution does happen, Sei will be fully supported by his kingdom and Shin.

Darth

@Phoenix:

Sei dosn't have to turn evil to unify China. However Hara is going to depict it how this arc ends, whatever Sei does will be "justified". He's not going to make the people hate Sei for his actions. You'll probably see Sei broken up that his mom was killed at the end of this rebellion. Sei won't be depicted as an emotionless king that is passing judgement becuase it's the law especially with his mother being one of the traitors this arc. Hell, the last arc Hara gave Sei's brother a redemption arc. When he could've easily had Sei kill him just for planning a rebellion against him.

With Shin out of the picture, we're going to have a seige story arc with the kingdom most likely being overrun. Sei will do his "we must not give up speech" which will rouse the people and they'll fight back. Sei will be seen as a hero by the people and while turning some of the other factions to his side since they saved him. A previous chapter had the people in the audience talking about how amazing he looked when he entered the throne room. Sei's actions will sway people. And if an execution does happen, Sei will be fully supported by his kingdom and Shin.

… Sei would have to try really hard to be perceived as evil by his country, considering how ancient China functioned. If Bai Qi was considered national hero, Sei would have to be truly monstrous to be considered evil.

Besides, Hara follows history rather faithfully. Execution is Lao Ai and his children is something that is well known.

Hillarious, his mother does not die. She is placed under house arrest.

Phoenix Zoan

Hara follows the major events results faithfully. The inbetweens are whatever makes a better a read.

sabret00the

I find it interesting that ending potential rebellions is seen as Sei turning evil. It's a necessary act. There's nothing in this world seen as good by all sides.

Darth

@sabret00the:

I find it interesting that ending potential rebellions is seen as Sei turning evil. It's a necessary act. There's nothing in this world seen as good by all sides.

I think that's the fault of holding him up to more extreme versions of modern, XXI century morality. Which is inherently silly.

Phoenix Zoan

What are you guys even going on about now? Hara isn't not going to depict Sei in a bad light. Hell, if was Darth was saying was true about Sei sparing his mother that would actually paint him in a more sympatheic light.

And where was I arguing modern times morality. Did I say anything about there having to be a jury trial for Sei to convict them? I even said at the very end "if an execution does happen, Sei would be fully supported by his kingdom and Shin."

Darth

@Phoenix:

What are you guys even going on about now? Hara isn't not going to depict Sei in a bad light. Hell, history even is going to actually help Sei look sympatheic if he ends up sparing his mother.

And where was I arguing modern times morality. Did I say anything about there having to be a jury trial for Sei to convict them?

No, that's the modern law. You are arguing from position of modern morality, not morality of ancient China.

Lao Ai being dismembered by horses and his children being beaten in sacks was not consider evil by their standarts. It was not something that would depict Sei in bad light. Hell, it would depict him in GOOD light, considering that dominant philosophy of Qin was Legalism.

Phoenix Zoan

@Darth:

No, that's the modern law. You are arguing from position of modern morality, not morality of ancient China.

Lao Ai being dismembered by horses and his children being beaten in sacks was not consider evil by their standarts. It was not something that would depict Sei in bad light. Hell, it would depict him in GOOD light, considering that dominant philosophy of Qin was Legalism.

So you're basically agreeing with me then. That Sei is going to be seen as a good guy after all is said and done. So are you arguing just to argue then?

Sabertoothe was the one arguing that Sei needs to turn "darker".

Darth

@Phoenix:

So you're basically agreeing with me then. That Sei is going to be seen as a good guy after all is said and done. So are you arguing just to argue then?

Sabertoothe was the one arguing that Sei needs to turn "darker".

Depends. Are you arguing that Sei is actually going to be a good person, or are you arguing that he is going to be perceived as such by his people? Because that… are two different things.

Phoenix Zoan

@Darth:

Depends. Are you arguing that Sei is actually going to be a good person, or are you arguing that he is going to be perceived as such by his people? Because that… are two different things.

So yeah you're arguing just to argue now.

Darth

@Phoenix:

So yeah you're arguing just to argue now.

No, I'm not. Your wording was imprecise, and could mean either of those two.

If you think that Sei is going to be a good person by modern standarts, if Hara sticks to history, he isn't.

Phoenix Zoan

All I said in my earlier post was Sei going on a murdering spree for lulz. That was a vague statement. You're trying to put words into my mouth saying I was making an arguement for modern morality.

I brought up the statement about how Hara said Sei wouldn't be depicted as in he was remembered in history. So if you want to find out what that meant you would have to argue with Hara and not me.

Darth

@Phoenix:

All I said in my earlier post was Sei going on a murdering spree for lulz. That was a vague statement. You're trying to put words into my mouth saying I was making an arguement for modern morality.

You said a lot more things, actually.

@Phoenix:

I brought up the statement about how Hara said Sei wouldn't be depicted as in he was remembered in history. So if you want to find out what that meant you would have to argue with Hara and not me.

Still waiting for the source on that. Also, Hara said that he will not change anything clearly stated in history. So yeah…

Phoenix Zoan

@Darth:

Still waiting for the source on that. Also, Hara said that he will not change anything clearly stated in history. So yeah…

He changed men into women that were clearly stated in history. So yeah..

Darth

@Phoenix:

He changed men into women that were clearly stated in history. So yeah..

He didn't. It is assumed that they were man, because of the culture, but they are never refered to as man, nor are they really mentioned beyond their names.

Phoenix Zoan

@Darth:

He didn't. It is assumed that they were man, because of the culture, but they are never refered to as man, nor are they really mentioned beyond their names.

Back in that time it was really rare for woman to be on the battlefield. Yet we have women in Kingdom that high level titles. Hara did that to bring diversity to the cast.

Anyways he's the closest I could find to a source.
http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/477476-The-Ultimate-Facts-Thread-on-Kingdom-Characters I am sure you guys can find plenty of information on him around the net though most of them portrayed a negative image of him. The author did mention that he plans to portrait a different image of Ying Zheng as opposed to history. This was also hinted in the manga when Wang Yi/Ouki gave Zheng the last message from his great-grandfather, King Zhao. Anyway, most of the stuff we have today were taken from ShiJi which was written in the Han dynasty, a dynasty that came immediately after the Qin dynasty, so there might be some sort of propaganda within it.

sabret00the

@Phoenix:

sabert00the was the one arguing that Sei needs to turn "darker".

I wouldn't say darker, I'm just saying that I hope Hara doesn't whitewash his part in history, by all accounts he was ruthless and I'm hoping that comes into the story. Earlier in the thread, it was stated that Shin was against soldiers pillaging and raping women in conquered villages, this is very different. With other challenges to the throne, you jeopardise everything. Not to mention that there should be some things that Shin and Sei don't see eye to eye on.

Phoenix Zoan

Well that's the thing though. Hara is essentially trying to whitewash Sei. He's writing Kingdom in a way that spins Sei into a way more positive image than the way he was protrayed in the history books. If he does get ruthless, it'll be very rare and he will most likely be heavily conflicted about it.

For me myself, I wouldn't mind if Sei went ruthless/darker/blah/blah since this is supposed to be a Seinen. But this is Hara's story and not mine.

sabret00the

@Phoenix:

Well that's the thing though. Hara is essentially trying to whitewash Sei. He's writing Kingdom in a way that spins Sei into a way more positive image than the way he was protrayed in the history books. If he does get ruthless, it'll be very rare and he will most likely be heavily conflicted about it.

For me myself, I wouldn't mind if Sei went ruthless/darker/blah/blah since this is supposed to be a Seinen. But this is Hara's story and not mine.

It's also important to remember that the Han Dynasty were incredibly anti Sei and so some things were portrayed in a far worse light than they actually occurred.

Phoenix Zoan

"History is written by the victors." - Winston S. Churchill