Posts made by Redx

You can pretty much consider this chapter to be a representation of Act 2. Oda introduced us to Wano in Ac 1 but now were slowly being given the various stories of Wano. Deepening our understanding of it's History and Characters. Every character really is their own story and Oda is giving us each of them one by one. So when this all concludes we'll thoroughly understand just how much their victory means to each and every one of them.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing the conclusion of each character's story.

I still stand by what I said previously about Zoro's Swords.

I still see Zoro putting Shusui back at the end of Wano. Not only is it a poetic way to wrap up that story but it's also symbolic of the strawhats righting the wrongs, and undoing the tragedies of their world.

It was Kaidou who crushed Moria. Forcing Moria to create the undead army and steal Ryuuma's corpse in the process. After Moria is defeated Zoro acquires the sword and makes his way to Wano. Then Kaidou the man who was the cause of all the tragedy that befell Wano is defeated. The sword is put back to where it belongs. Having this happen alongside Wano being restored to a paradise after Kaidou's defeat just seems fitting imo.

I don't see him keeping Enma either even if he does use it for a time.
I think it's nice to have the future World's Greatest Swordsman use some of the world's most famous blades for a time but I'm still hoping for all 3 cursed blades to be Zoro's endgame swords.

No one uses them and it presents an opportunity for Zoro to make those swords his own rather than using the famed blade of someone else. Enma is famous because it was Oden's sword and what he accomplished with it, and Shusui is famous because it was Ryuuma's sword and what he accomplished with it. I want Zoro to make his own swords famous through his own accomplishments. To make his own legend.

Everyone fears the Kitetsu blades and avoids them like the plague but Zoro is shown to be the only man crazy enough to use them. Not to mention his character theme is Asura the Anti-God and he's always being compared to a demon himself. Making him wield all 3 cursed blades just fits his character extremely well.

@Bigivel:

Again, how was a life or death battle, if Katakuri did everything to not kill Luffy?

He was trying to kill Luffy. That was his goal. He may not have done everything he could have to kill Luffy but thats only due to the fact that katakuri isn't excessive. He only does as much as necessary. Hence why he thought suffocating Luffy in a pile of Mochi would have sufficed even though he probably could have done more.

And you're telling me that the attack was "truly lethal"?

Stop overthinking things. I obviously meant that tearing off a piece of his torso is more lethal a blow than any he'd received uptil that point.

It is the case.

It's not. But the annoying semantics game we're playing isn't getting us anywhere.

What has "having pride in his strength" as anything to do with hurting himself, knocking out his sister and crew and endangering and betraying the family?

He didn't like the fact that he spent so many hours trying to and failing to kill the man who he originally saw as below him. So in his desire to fight on Luffy's level he injured himself. Not that complicated at all.

Are you saying that he only cared about his strength?

No.

and didn't he thought Luffy was beneath him until just that moment? He clearly says that!(Even though Luffy didn't nothing to change the thinking).

There was a clear transition in Katakuri's perspective over the course of the fight.

https://orojackson.com/threads/a-manly-duel-the-problem-with-luffy-vs-katakuri.47732/page-2#post-2969333

@Bigivel:

Did he tried to kill him?

Yes. It was a life or death battle. It was the entire reason they were fighting. lol.

Only managed to land a shot with the help from his little sister?

He only managed to land a truly lethal blow because of Flampe.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Bigivel:

most of the time they are related and even sometimes used as synonym, this is one of the casees.

It's not.

Honour, meaning the morally right thing for him to do.

Honor has nothing to do with "the right thing".

Pride, is dignity. Being that dignity the right thing to do.

Dignity isn't "the right thing to do" either.

and it was never showed he was one person that only cared about fights,

No one claimed that. Having pride in his strength and "only caring about fights" are two different things.

@Maju:

the plotholes and people acting out of character or not using reason don't get solved if you binge-read

Most of which was summed up here.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Maju:

-why a glutton like big mom would wait so much to eat her precious wedding cake when there was not going to be a wedding in the first place? it would have made sense if the cerimony was actually real,but since she was not she was free to eat the cake whenever she wanted.

It should be rather obvious that the actual purpose of the Tea Party is Big Mom's desperate attempt to replicate and relive the "best day of her life". It adds to just how damaged she is as a person.

@Bigivel:

it was trying to show "honor"

No it wasn't. That scene had nothing to do with honor. It was about Pride. Katakuri had been trying to kill the man for hours then only managed to land a shot with help from his little sister. Of course he'd take it personally.

That is why there is a ton of conversations trying to make sense of Katakuri, when that happens with a character is usually because he is horrible done,

Or for all we know a bunch of people just have poor reading comprehension. Or the translations suck which can lead to confusion. Placing the blame on the character or the author is unfounded imo.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@kouch_lee:

Loved this chapter. Bittersweet ending for what seemed to be Oda's homage to Disney, but that makes it all the more special. The SHs didn't get to save everyone, but they did save Sanji, they did distract one of the 4 mightiest beings in the opverse long enough to escape via the simple act of cooking a cake, they stole a Road Poneglyph, and earned the uber fanboyism of their second in command.

In exchange, the entire Germa military + the fishman pirates + Jinbe + Pekoms are now put in jeopardy. This is the minimum payment one should be forced to pay when defying one of the strongest beings in the known world, me thinks.

It's surprisingly low key, it cuts things in half, it leaves a sour aftertaste. . .and it's something that was we didn't get from One Piece since Sabaody.

Honestly, I'm very positive about this arc in general, but before this chapter I would've never dreamt of putting it in my top 10 favorite arcs ever. This chapter made me think very hard about it. It might've very well singlehandedly put it up there.

The last page is one of the very best we've ever got. The Katakuri/Brulee interaction is awesome. The visual representation and bittersweet aftertaste of the Pudding scene, the Sanji/Carrot interaction. . .this is seriously one of the best chapters in the entire series. Just like the 900 chapter was. And plenty of others throughout this beautiful arc.

Really convinced, years down the line, people will look back at Tottoland and feel waaaay more positive towards it compared to what we're seeing now (which, to my understanding, is a not very good general consensus, seeing how people have been wishing for its end for like. . .30 chapters now? 35? 40?). Or not. We'll see.

To me, hands down the number 1 post time skip arc by far. And something tells me, Wano will have a massive HARD time measuring up to it.

^Pretty much this.

Years down the line when One Piece is completed the people who are gonna be able to read One Piece in one go are gonna find this arc amazing.

@FelRes:

Do you really need a 30 minute video to understand the concept of family in One Piece.

Some people do. But it's really just an enjoyable analysis. A large portion of it pertains to Whole Cake as well.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@FelRes:

It's largely the insisting that we all should have seen some 30 minute video when we could just listen to Ore-tachi wa Family again.

I wasn't insisting that you should do anything. I worded my question that way because I wasn't sure if someone posted it already. I didn't want to assume you guys hadn't already watched it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@theackwardstation:

What's the problem of making an analysis? Nobody's claiming to be a visionary, just exposing the observable concept inside a structured thesis, something that should be done more often in the shonen community.

^This guy gets it. Nothing wrong with having a structured breakdown of one of the core themes. It's much more interesting imo than just lazily slapping the friendship label on it.

@Dahaka.:

Does anyone else think Luffy vs Katakuri was weirdly written?

I mean, at first the whole fight was all about Luffy improving his CoO and finding out how to bypass Katakuri's godly haki(by making him lose his cool)

And then it simply ends on Luffy randomly coming up with a power up that makes him fast enough to land hits on katakuri, which makes the whole 20 chapters of build up kinda irrelevant, because neither Luffy's CoO nor Katakuri's weakness came into play in the climax of the fight.

Not really.

Just curious, but you guys have all seen this already right?

Totally unrelated but, this was a nice little analysis on the original crew members.

@Sereques:

Lets accept we blame that ass pull on awakening, how is he putting Haki on something he did not touch? Zoro's slash came from the sword he's holding, Mingo is making some kind of contact with the strings. How is Katakuri coating galactic donuts?

Obviously Haki can be mentally imbued onto anything inherently connected to the users's will. Thought this was discussed already.

@Greg:

There are certifiably brilliant people on this forum (of whom I am certainly not one ^o^) who've been doing that for over 15 years.

Yeah but not in the general anime community. YT is a much broader platform.

@Halfmetal-lich:

Isn't One Piece's over the top and frankly almost disney like designs what makes the series so endearing?

Absolutely. And according to Oda the art is disney based. lol.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@ARTEMlS:

Well, there are also some sites which take everything from a real world physics angle and analyse power levels by doing some totally not overcomplicated computations… which also relies on proportions. That is, if Oda drew let's say Akainu's super nukes only one millimetre longer or shorter, they would get a completely different result regarding how many megatons/gigatons/whatevertons force is involved.

These sites are actually fucking hilarious as for example I once saw them arguing against Master Roshi being able to destroy a moon because it didn't fit their computations and powerscaling and therefore is an outlier which doesn't count at all. Despite well, Master Roshi just doing so...

Reading through that may take its toll by removing a little part of my soul, but it's funny so who cares...

^More reasons why "pixel scaling" in vs forums is retarded.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@MiyamotoMusashi:

They are not a prerequisite for any manga, depending on the context of course.

But for most people, One Piece is a "gateway" manga or anime, depending on the medium, and if people who normally only consume live action stuff or comics/anime with realistic context, One Piece is really out there.
For me it´s a positive thing, some people might not like it.

Yeah for some reason people in the west can't handle One Piece's art at all. They prefer more serious looking stuff because anything that looks childish or playful is looked down upon. Despite the fact that this series is in fact far better written than some of the "mature" stories in the west.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Greg:

They're kids. What do we expect ^_^; That still doesn't make anything in the vid 'brilliant' which was my original observation.

'Helpful for young readers'? Sure!

No need to take one word and blow things out of proportion.

Instead of simply looking down on certain people for being young, stupid and "just not getting it" I'd rather appreciate that theres someone out there doing the series some justice. It's a well constructed video explaining an aspect of the series that makes it so beloved.

Too many people simply write off One Piece nowadays and theres hardly anyone eloquently explaining whats actually good about it.

@Galaxy:

The goal is for that to eventually be a possibility, but the problem right now is that the beginning of the series isn't nearly as horribly paced as the later parts of the One Piece anime. Our current main focus is on Whole Cake Island, where 3-4 episodes is the equivalent of 2 chapters. Compared to the East Blue, where one episode adapted on average 2 chapters or more an episode, it makes sense for the focus to primarily be on Whole Cake Island.

Of course, we do take newer viewers into account, and that's why we do take the time to do older arcs when time allows. Maybe when we finally catch up to Toei's Whole Cake adaptation we'll go back and fill in the Baratie-Arlong Park gap of the East Blue saga, but I can't promise anything there because that's Feeso's choice.

On that note as well, I am currently editing the Enies Lobby Arc on the side. But those episodes will only release if we don't have a Whole Cake Island episode lined up in a reasonable time-frame. When we do catch up to Whole Cake Island, and if Feeso decides to edit the rest of the East Blue gap, we'll probably rotate between the arcs as we wait for more Whole Cake episodes to build up.

Well thats a relief. The One Piece Community needs this.

Side Note: I wonder what would happen if Toei finds out that random fans on the internet managed to create a more likeable version of their anime….

@MiyamotoMusashi:

I think that´s exactly the point. The many people who are not so long with the series or simply have never understood the comical nature of One Piece and argue with realism…

Yes this is exactly my point. lol.

@Galaxy:

It currently isn't high priority, so there is no estimate at this time.

I think it should be tbh. It would really help people who are just getting into One Piece. That way when people ask me if they should watch One Piece I could say: "No! go watch One Pace!".

This is unrelated but have you guys seen this? Thought it was rather brilliant tbqh.

Dwarf Pirates bout to fuck shit up in the New World. That Usopp canon is priceless tho.

Sanji acting like himself again and making Nami feel uncomfortable as usual.

Big Mom apparently wasn't attacking with anything huge or devastating judging by the state of their ship.

Bege still gonna attempt an assassination? Thats not gonna work out well. In addition to that, none of the strawhats seem particularly interested in Pudding atm. Which is weird because I thought they'd have a few things to say about being lied to like that. But I guess nows not the time for that. Or maybe they've forgiven her already? Nah seems a bit too easy. Though it is interesting that she's on the ship with them now. Will she stay or go back to her family?(obviously the latter but it's still a fun question to ponder).

We got a tidbit of characterization for Smoothie but I'm gonna need more than that. Katakuri alone is rich in characterization & themes and even Cracker was characterized pretty well. Hopefully the next few chapters focuses on her.

Is Big Mom on Prometheus slower than on Zeus? or is it just because she's staying close to the ship trying not to damage the cake?

Lastly, I'm not entirely sure if Katakuri means that Luffy is actually reaching his level in terms of CoO. He could simply mean his own Haki is wearing down and Luffy is catching up. Regardless that last panel was pretty brutal. Katakuri actually tore out a chunk of flesh. Hows Luffy gonna recover? Hell how is he gonna use Gear 4th with a hole in him? I know everything thinks that this is a vision but if it isn't the only other way out of it is if Luffy starts to awaken awakening(even if only partially) and he reforms like Kid Buu/Plastic Man. That or he keeps fighting despite the injury Which OP characters are known to do. Maybe his flesh will come back after he eats meat? shrugs It worked with milk. lol.

@Maju:

basically what i think happened is that luffy read the attack and basically countered it before he could accelerate and gain enough force, and that is just after katakuri explained that he is doing the same thing with luffy, weakening his attacks by depriving him the chance to transfer strenght in his attacks.

Yeah thats what I thought too. It's either that or Luffy's getting stronger. Which would be weird.

@Nubtro:

Yes that was great to see. This is the one thing I don´t like about his gears. That without the boost he was shown to be unable to compete with the monsters of the world, which makes it seem like he is average without his fruit.

It's only temporary imo. At this point in the story he needs the boost to compete with the top dogs. I have no problems with him utilizing various G4 forms and unleashing a G5 against Kaidou as long as his strength in base goes up as the story goes on. Base Luffy should be on par with Katakuri by the time he fights/defeats Kaidou. And Base Luffy should be Yonkou level by the time reaches Pirate King lvl.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@juiceduphody3315:

So I guess Katakuri has NEVER clashed with jack, or any other yonkou commanders? Never been knocked down or in trouble despite being in the New World constantly battling for territory?

It could just mean they fought but not long enough to have a definitive winner. Like a lot of the short skirmishes at Marineford.

Oda adding some more layers to Katakuri this chapter. Previously there were a few mentally challenged members of OJ that actually believed that Kata's doughnut scene meant he was an insecure person. That was obviously false and this chapter confirms that his need to hide himself comes from a desperate need to have a place where he can relax due to the constant pressures of his family to maintain a perfect image at all times. Despite the fact that he clearly hates being put on a pedestal as noted by the fact that he told Brulee to shut up when she began praising him too much. Yet he has to be perfect in order gain their affection.

Not only does it add a bit of depth to Katakuri but it highlights the previously missing opposing beliefs and ideologies of the characters thats always been present throughout all of Luffy's fights. For Luffy vs Katakuri though there are probably more parallels than contrasts. Both are struggling to live up to the trust put in them by their respective families. One is a family of blood and one is a family of bonds. And as you all know one of One Piece's major themes has been that bonds > blood. Katakuri's refusal to touch the floor and even regarding it as shameful fully emphasizes just how heavily he's been indoctrinated into this belief. Luffy refusal to stay down obviously acting as a message to Kata that it's ok to fall down as long as you get back up again. Y'know shounen stuff.

Another thing this chapter points out is something I've been talking about for a long time. People often only consider characters to be moving "fast" when a certain flash step trope is in use. This chapter further points out that what we see and what the characters see are two different things. Just because we the readers can see characters punching eachother doesn't necessarily mean the characters actually watching the fight can see that.

That last panel of Big Mom riding on Prometheus was insane. If this is her while severely weakened I can't even imagine what kind of monster she is when at full power.

@BattleFranky69:

Then learn the difference between 'that's a stupid thing to say' and 'you're stupid for saying that'. You clearly don't understand the distinction.

Except I didn't say any of that so none of that even applies.

@Galaxy:

We've done quite a few of them, but Post Timeskip is the priority right now.

Oh I see. Makes sense since the postskip stuff needs it the most. So are you guys gonna wait for a filler or something before you start covering Part 1? Or will you focus solely on the New World stuff?

When do you guys plan on covering the early arcs? Or are you just doing the post timeskip stuff for now?

I've re-read One Piece literally hundreds of times. Where has this thread been all my life? lol.

@MrPecans:

I often fantasize about a world where we could have a really quality One Piece fighting game.

Who doesn't? lol.

@BattleFranky69:

If you don't stop personally insulting me I'm going to ignore you.

Dude….no one is insulting you. I'm just genuinely wondering how much you've seen. Because anybody whose seen a handful of shounen would never make such a comparison. I'm not attacking you thats just how it is.

You don't have to see it, and Super Saiyan is basically just an amping up of their ki in any case so it's not like it's completely separate,

Again, you might as well claim Gear 4th and Haki are the same thing.

And Bleach is garbage. I don't much care for comparisons to it.

Well yeah, Bleach is trash but it's not like thats the only example.

@Law-ya:

….but it's not analogous. It's like saying Ichigo's hollow mask is like haki because he gets a hard exoskeleton, is time-limited, is a power-up, and is spammed. Haki is the reiatsu of Bleach. It's the force of the world used as a form of power enhancement. Haki is not a power-up it's a power enhancement. Power-ups are user/race specific. Diablo jambe is a power-up, gears are power-ups, wind slash attacks are power-ups because they are user specific but Haki is an enhancement on top of the natural power-ups that can be virtually accessed by anyone.

^This guy gets it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@BattleFranky69:

Plus Goku once turned his hand as hard as Trunks' sword while they were both Super Saiyans so that was extremely similar to a Haki effect and why I see it so closely related.

Again, thats NOT because of the super saiyan thats just them using their Ki. I really have to question if you've seen DBZ at all. Or any other shounen for that matter….

@BattleFranky69:

Hey, come on, now, no throwing shade or it stops being fun.

I'm just saying they have similar characteristics. Who but the Saiyans were the main focus of DBZ? It's just that OP has a far more diverse cast that doesn't shove characters into the background for the serious moments, so their powerup is more ubiquitous. Still has an empowering effect that's used as often.

lol. I wasn't trying to throw shade. I didn't mean for you to take it that way.

It's just that your comparison is way off. Yeah it's "slightly" similar but thats almost like saying Gear 2nd and Haki are the same thing because they're both powerups.

Haki has for more in common with Ki than it does with the super saiyan. There are more characters in DBZ than just the saiyans. And they all amp energy into their fists and sense life forces all without the use of being a super saiyan.

http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ki

@Count:

I'm only talking about how they are conventionally used to define "good" and "evil" characters in fiction. And One Piece relies on very conventional tropes and overall storytelling in the action-adventure shonen genre to use those labels. I'm not using One Piece's characterizations to make statements about real life morality. I'm only talking about the manga in and of itself. How Oda likes to write it. There's need to spin this into a widespread philosophical discussion evaluating the semantics and subjectivism of morality.

Alright. I was just explaining that from my perspective the terms are pointless. As the series itself points out that theres no objective heroes/villains. Though I understand why people use the terms as shorthand to describe the antagonists in OP.

@Count:

But not having any somehow doesn't make you a bad guy, or at least someone an audience is being made to purely dislike (in terms of supporting their goals) by the story if the main characters hog all of the redeemable traits?

All I'm saying is that if "likes" or "dislikes" determine good or evil then the terms themselves are ultimately meaningless labels.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@BattleFranky69:

Darkened skin/clothes/weapons vs yellow hair (both a form of temporary partial transformation) and both involve conjuring inner power to strengthen oneself? Seems pretty similar to me.

I have to wonder if you've read anything else besides One Piece. You're talking about Ki, or Nen.

Universal energy sources that anyone can use. Thats what Haki is. The SS transformation is purely genetic and pertains to one species.

@Kdom:

Brook can make people sleep, Nami can create illusion, etc…, it’s just Oda didn’t want them to do something or else they could have.

Right except none of that would have produced any effective results. It takes time for his songs to work. Mirages wouldn't have stopped Doffy from attacking etc. The best option was simply to leave.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Count:

Name one redeemable trait of any One Piece villain Luffy has defeated outside of Arlong and Doflamingo in the same arc they are terrorizing. Just one example of basic human decency that isn't merely not being as bad as a future villain.

I forgot to mention this before but: redeemable traits =/= likable characters =/= " The good guys".

@GeeBi:

haha yeah I also think haki kinda made the fights in OP more generic . Having stronger haki almost means absolute win to your enemies , just like having stronger chakra/ki/magic power.
I could imagine there might be a future movie about an enemy stronger than yonkou , because… guess what , he has a stronger haki (and Luffy would beat him via shouting nakama this nakama that)

Um I think you might need to watch the video. lol.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@K.:

No, that's the supposition you are making so that it fits Kaido more than any other character.

Not at all. Thats just how Oda writes. A connection was hinted at and he clearly wants to keep it a mystery. Weevil doesn't make sense based on the other statements made.

For all we know when Oda said Legend he was referring to an "event" instead of a character.

@Kdom:

It’s perfectly valid since it is just Oda to decide uf he wants the crew to do something or not. Or are you pretending he can’t be creative enough to find his heroes a solution to get out of a dire situation in all cases ?

No it's not valid because Oda isn't just coming up with a random scenarios for the strawhats to survive. He's playing into the rules of DFs that he already set up. What works against one DF user might not work against another. They didn't have any counters for Doffy so they fled.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@BattleFranky69:

I just look at Armament Haki like a more universal form of Super Saiyan.

That doesn't make any sense though. SS is a transformation. Haki should be compared to Ki, Chakra, Reiatsu, Nen, The Force etc etc. It's the life force manipulation trope.

@K.:

Eh, sure?

There is a chracter that, as of Zou has been targetting Luffy, his strength is "legendary" even comparable to a young whitebeard(not sick) and the mystery on how Weevil connect to Whitebeard, how he is his true son unlike the ahitebeard commanders. Considering he is hunting them down, says that at the very least he can tango with new world veterans.

Which is neat and all but it really doesn't make any sense. Obviously the worlds strongest creature would be their greatest enemy in the arc where they plan to go to war with him. Not some shichibukai.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@K.:

The relation between Kaido and Whitebeard is fickle to connect those two.

Again, thats kinda the point. The connection between them is supposed to be a mystery. Hence why Oda only gives us a small hint.

@Koliber:

But then you have Busoshoku Haki or Haki being as common as it is which makes it absolute nonsense that every (aside of Enel) major enemy in Paradise lacks it, seeing how notorious they were supposed to be. We clearly see how late of an addition it is and that Oda didn't know what exactly he's planning to do with it even after its introduction. It's probably the worst example in the manga.

This guy had some great points on that.

@K.:

How does Kaido relate to Whitebeard besides a loosely connecting him through Oden and the remnants of the Whitebeard commanders?

Well duh thats the mystery. lol.

@Law-ya:

Her arms wasn't blackened and the sharp part of the sword was white. That is some monstrous strength if she really wasn't using haki.

Maybe but the invisible Haki and Koka(Hardening) are two different things.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Count:

and how rare Haki was pre-timeskip compared to how common it is post-timeskip.

Actually this was just meant to parallel how rare Devil Fruits were in the Blue Seas compared to the Grandline.

I really don't like Armament Haki. In fact, I don't like Haki as a whole when you also look at how Observation Haki never comes into play or else it would be too overpowered and how useless Conquerer's Haki is aside from building hype from knocking out fodder.

This I completely agree with. I understand the purpose of Haki and what it's supposed to represent thematically, but it's so underdeveloped as a concept I can't help but be frustrated about it. Oda seriously needs to flesh out the damn ability already.

@Kaido:

Because she's not fast?

She has good reactions & reflexes under normal conditions. She was able to react to G4 Luffy with ease. Before that she was able to beat Brook into submission and logically she had to be fast enough to hit him in order to do so.

@ARTEMlS:

Actually there is a comparable situation. Like when Whitebeard accurately detected Ace attempt to murder him while he's sleeping.

We went over this already bro.

!

Big Mom hasn't been in the right mindset for it to work. She's either been pissed off or mindlessly Berserk.

@ARTEMlS:

Even if so, looks like she's just not that good in this department.

It depends on the situation. There hasn't been a situation where she could use it yet so we haven't seen it.

@Count:

Because that's how Oda gets the happy endings he wants. Having a villain that makes you feel sympathetic towards them or raises legitimate ethical issues the heroes can't solve gets in the way of that.

So yes, Oda does like to frame his fights as good versus evil like you said. But the evil side is almost always executed as definitively evil according to the intuitively shared majority perception of society. Oda only really likes to play around with who is "good" and who is really good, but even then it's only to a certain degree because he still wants his fans to look up to and have fun with his main characters.

Yeah thats essentially my point. The moral greyness does exist but harping on it too much derails the overall fun/enjoyment the series is supposed to have.

Doesn't mean it's not there even if we're meant to "like" certain characters more than others.

@Kai:

trying to make it seem like BMPs are not a bunch of incompetents.

I don't know if you read much outside of One Piece but thats generally the protagonists job. To be the "spanner in the works" and screw up all "villains" plans. It doesn't make the villains incompetent. It's just something that happens in these kinds of stories. It happens to Doctor Doom, Lex Luthor, Thanos, Darkseid, and even Galactus.

BMs crew is an embarassment to other Yonkos.

Think I should elaborate on this further. Thats only the case if you're thinking in the short term. Looking at the bigger picture here she's only being nerfed here in this very specific scenario because they're not fighting her this arc. If they did, they'd lose. After the strawhats have taken down Kaidou and officially take on Big Mom then she'll be allowed to be as powerful as she really is. What happens in WCI is ultimately inconsequential.

@Count:

but it's always obvious which characters you should support and which ones you should hate.

Those are just subjective preferences though. Who you like and who you don't like should hardly be qualifications for any sort objective evil or anything. The fact that theres no inherent good or bad is even brought up in the manga.

https://cdn.opbforums.com/manga/One%20Piece/543/12.png
https://cdn.opbforums.com/manga/One%20Piece/543/13.png

Name one redeemable trait that any One Piece villain Luffy has defeated outside of Arlong and Doflamingo in the same arc they are terrorizing.

That plays into what I mentioned earlier. Oda likes to frame his fights as battles between good & evil for thematic purposes. So there was no need to give them redeeming qualities during the arc we were facing them because it would destroy that.

@Count:

Um… Wait, are you taking my "evil for the sake of evil" quote to mean that a villain isn't a true villain as long as they have a goal and aren't just causing random mischief? I strongly disagree with that distinction. What I mean by that quote is mainly their personality and actions in how they acquire what they want, and usually what they want is something completely selfish. So I feel perfectly fine labeling them as being villains to the core.

Oh, thats just because technically speaking evil doesn't even really exist. It's just a label we put on things we don't like. Which is why I don't refer to them as such.

But why do most of them want those goals? Because, again, they're just assholes. Assholes that want power no matter what it takes.

Lmao Thats an incredibly oversimplified way of looking at it though.

@Kai:

Yes what happened this chapter was justified if you actually pay attention to the details. But thats it.

lol. What do you mean "thats it"? Thats all that matters. The facts. Not your superficial concern with "appearances" and "looking badass".

BMs crew is an embarassment to other Yonkos.

Hardly.

I mean Luffy has 0 scars in that arm, which WOULD be the case if his arm was ALMOST cut off,

Not really. Luffy rarely gets scars. The guy heals like a video game character. Leopard Lucci ran him through with a shigan and Luffy said that shit went away after he had lunch. lmao.

@Count:

I would still call all of them hardcore villains though.

I wouldn't mainly because of your second statement.

but they still completely act the part in their methods and personality.

Thats exactly it. They play their role. In the same way that Luffy plays the narrative role as the "Hero" even though he's not actually a hero. The antagonists play the narrative role as the "villain" even though they're not necessarily villains. At least not in the evil for the sake of evil sense. Oda's just really good at framing the fights in such a way that it "looks" like a battle of Hero vs Villain. It's more thematic than literal.

They all probably have backstories, but they didn't matter enough to be expanded upon. And when the likes of Lucci, Hody, and Caesar got flashbacks during their tenure as villains, they were bloodthirsty dogs from the start.

Come to think of it Arlong's backstory was expanded on by Jinbei. Suffering through years of oppression led to him being racist which lets us see his actions in East Blue in a slightly different light.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Nilitch:

And if she could use obersvation haki, she should have known Brook was aiming Zeus.

She most likely can. She's just not in a proper mental state to use observation Haki. CoO takes concentration and if the user isn't calm and collected it won't work. Big Mom is neither of those things right now. lol.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Kdom:

People discredit Joy Boy a bit too much in my opinion. Some of his points are valid in particular the comparison with Dressrosa treatment.

Thats still not a valid point though.

The strawhats didn't have any abilities that could counter Doffy's. That just happens to be the case with BM. It's a matter of circumstance.

Yes they're both way above the strawhats in terms of raw power but the unpredictable interactions between DF abilities combined with BM being weakened by starvation is what kept them alive here.

@Monkey:

the problem is that people think the yonkos are gods

They're not gods obviously but they're quite clearly above everyone else in the series.

even though we know that whitebeard was above the yonko.

lolwut? That definitely was not the case.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Count:

Unfortunately, I would say this extends to Oda's disinterest in characterizing his villains much beyond the depth of most Disney villains.

I agree with most of this but feel I should point out that Arlong actually did care about his crew. Which was the main difference between him & Hodi.

!

Moria loved his crew once too.

The thing was preskip antagonists never got backstories. That started happening after the timeskip. And even then it's not like they weren't well characterized it's just that they never really needed to be all that deep. They were never really villains in the sense that they were out to do evil for the sake of evil. They were just people with different goals.

@Joy:

SO NAMI AND CHOPPER OVER THE COURSE OF 2 YEARS GREW STRONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS BEEN AT THE TOP FOR DECADES WHILE 2 ARCS PRIOR THOSE 2 WERE SCARED SHITLESS OF DOFLAMINGO. WOW SUCH GREAT WRITING

Good God. It's like you didn't even read the chapter. Them dealing with her has nothing to do with "strength" they just happen to have some of the right abilities to counter hers.

Power lvls don't always determine the outcomes of fights. One Piece fights have always been dynamic in that sense.

!

!

!

"Vicotry and fighting strength aren't the same thing",
"anyone can lose if caught off guard",
"you never know how 2 abilities will interact".

Oda's been making this very clear. You just haven't been paying attention.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Joy:

The whole forum has jumped on me because I don't suck Oda's dick with this kind of writing

Nobody's sucking Oda's dick. Theres nothing wrong with the writing here. You've just been factually incorrect with every claim you've made. Thats what people have a problem with.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@RadioactiveChimp:

Some people keep ragging on Joy Boy like he's wrong lol.

He is. It'd be one thing if he had a point. But he doesn't.

Big Mom is a yonkz and she's being portrayed as a very strong Shishibukai at best.

This is objectively false.

Even Doffy had a more badass display,

A character's strength has nothing to do with how badass they are.

I would say Katakuri is the best portrayed badass even if he gets defeated by Luffy.

This is all you people really care about isn't it? You seem to bring it up a lot.

Cracker (tbh) was fodder.

Also objectively false. Cracker was stronger than his biscuits. He had Haki like Luffy had never come across before and nearly chopped Luffy's arm off in G4. Something an Awakened Doffy couldn't do even once. Thats not a fodder lvl opponent.

For everyone trying to defend Big Mom after falling on her face from Nami's attack though,

Once again, that wasn't Nami's attack. You've been corrected on this more than once now and you're still repeating yourself.

@Count:

So the distance between Carmel and the fire can be equated to the distance between the ground and the sky? Is that correct?

Nobody's equating the distance. Just that if it can be projected over a distance having her soul reach the clouds isn't outside the realm of possibility. Especially when you consider she can ride prometheus. The nitpick is just silly.

@Count:

As if it's too much to expect a series' surreality to be logically consistent in how its portrayed throughout the story no matter how unrealistic the concept is.

At this point in the story? it absolutely is.

No she didn't. There were giant flames in front of her.

Yes she did. Her soul exited her body, then crossed a distance in front of her to get to the flames. Therefore theres nothing unreasonable about her doing that to a cloud.

@GeeBi:

So now other people giving arguments in a forum ​is called being dishonest , huh

Exactly. These people act like we're wrong for choosing to look at all the facts before judging.

@RadioactiveChimp:

Some ppl here are being dishonest with themselves

It's the exact opposite. Theres people making claims solely based on their negative feelings towards BM and Then theres the people choosing to acknowledge the actual facts of the matter.

It's just questionable how strong now.

This is clearly a weakened Big Mom. If she were at full power the strawhats obviously wouldn't stand a chance.