Posts made by MiyamotoMusashi

@Monquito:

Hiyori going 'The Lannisters sent their regards' on Orochi, lmao.

Oda still cant let go of GoT.

More like the north never forgets

@kouch_lee:

I feel like this is pure thread derailment at this point, but why not?

Basically, I read the first chapters of both JJK and KnY. You definitely can't judge a shonen manga by its first chapter, but it strikes me as odd how incredibly amateurish KnY's art looks. JJK has its own style and looks crisp and unique (even if not mindblowing), but KnY looks straight up bad. Again, only read the first chapter of each, but the way they are JJK feels like it'll be more rewarding in the long run. Weird choice to make the protagonist kind of an already established badass, since these mangas usually go for the underdog, but interesting none the less.

Now, KnY did go for something a bit different in terms of drama and tragedy, which I guess was its main pull for audiences, but again, it's shocking how bad the art looks.

Just random thoughts that mean nothing since these are just the first chapters. Didn't feel a massive urge to keep on reading any of them, but I might in the future, who knows.

My theory: KnY drew a lot of people in due to the anime´s great animation (it´s really incredible) and with that animation hooked them on the story.
After being invested in the story, the artstyle of the manga did not matter.

@astagadragon:

So basically you're saying that OP doesn't need new readers? One thing that make both Demon Slayer super big is that they bring a new generation of manga readers. Without new readers, a series will stagnate. And that is happening to OP right now. I'd expect the sales forward to decline even more…

Stagnate does not mean decline…

@Zik:

Doesn't need to gain new readership. Just look at where it is on the list.

How much longer can they milk having AoT and Demon Slayer there?

JJK is still in the midst of its hype. Yep KnY and SnK are probably gonna lose places next year, the latter probably won´t make it to top 10, but it´s not like the success of JJK and KnY is because they are that incredible.
They just fit the taste of the newer generation more, have their basics right, and are much shorter. And the industry after SnK understood that adapting such mangas early with a higher budget can lead to dramatic increase in manga sales, hence why you see far more adaptations post-SnK. Before that, Light Novels were the go to for adaptations for similar reasons.

Next year two mangas that are already in the top 10, Chainsaw Man and Spy x Family, are going to get adaptations from big studios.
I doubt this trend is going to stop anytime soon. The individual titles might get switched out, but every year a new title will get hyped.

Nevertheless, not a bad place to be whatsoever, basically staying consistently in top 5 regardless of the newest hype.

@Lana_Patrick:

I'm too dumb to find all the numbers from Oricon for One Piece since they started taking the numbers, but I'd love too se a chart of One Piece's sales year by year. See when was the peak, how much it has declined, where was the lowest point, these kinds of info.

Not a chart but list

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?clubid=65525

@andre:

This is the third year in a row and the thread has looked basically exactly like this. There will be another JJY that will blitz in and sell like hotcakes and people will worry about OP (My guess is Chainsaw Man). It will be fine and I wager once the last volume hits, One Piece will do some things that have never been seen in the industry.

I don´t think anybody "worries" about OP, just stating the obvious.

I do think that once OP ends, there will be a substantial new readership, since many people, especially in context of long series, like to wait for conclusions, and the final war might actually also recreate Marineford regarding the action.

@Vongola_Boss_XI:

Yes, One Piece coming in a lower place has less to do with the decline of One Piece than it does the truly incredible sales of these new series. One Piece only ever did these types of numbers in the years around Strong World's release. As Captain M says, people are going back and buying all the previous volumes for series like JJK and Demon Slayer.

One Piece is being driven entirely by new volumes released in this calendar year and Oda's publication pace has necessarily slowed down.

So we can really just say good for these new series without worrying about One Piece. It's not pulling the same numbers as it did at its peak, but it's also still undoubtedly incredibly popular, particularly for such a long running series.

I'm actually most curious now to see if the Live Action series could create a new boom in sales, perhaps even in the west if the show is a big hit. The odds that live action One Piece will be as big as Game of Thrones are incredibly low. I mean, I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to see US audiences as enthralled with the voyage of Monkey D. Luffy as they are with 'Baby Yoda'. I can dream.

The live action series is probably still two years away. Maybe it can be the next Stranger Things size hit for Netflix.

I'm just curious to see what, if any, the potential success of the live action series could have on manga sales. In the US, comics and manga are a far more niche industry and I don't get the sense that the MCU has had a tremendous impact on Marvel Comics. I do know that A Song of Ice and Fire became much more popular through Game of Thrones but I wouldn't say anywhere close to a majority of show viewers also checked out the novels.

If the show does succeed, Viz & Shueisha should be ready to go with some deluxe 3-in-1 type books. That's actually what I'm most hoping for from One Piece. Also the digitally colored editions in print.

But at the core of it, this is much more about the phenomenal success of these new series than it is the decline of One Piece. The latter might grab more headlines, but it's less descriptive of reality. One Piece is still selling incredibly well. It received a huge boost in popularity with Strong World and the Marineford arc which buoyed sales to 34(?)+ million in its peak year, which at the time was unprecedented. It reigned at the top of the sales chart until the past couple years; a decade+ long run as number 1 in annual sales is still unprecedented and it's still the overall highest-selling manga of all time. One Piece outsold Spider-Man. Demon Slayer has surpassed One Piece in terms of average sales per volume (6.5 vs. 4.9), but that's also the one title One Piece never claimed from Dragon Ball.

As for anything else, I'm sure Shueisha isn't panicking or even upset by One Piece seeing a slight, gradual decline in sales. One Piece sales have gradually declined since the big wave created by Strong World / the Paramount War. It seems to have settled into a 7 - 10 million pattern. If you go back to the mid to late 2000's, sales numbers like what One Piece is putting up now would have still placed it near the top of the annual sales chart.

What this means is that the success of JJK and KnY is not coming at the expense of the 'reigning king' so to speak. It suggests that the manga industry as a whole has expanded and that these series are bringing in new readers. That they were able to so completely dominate the sales chart without One Piece suffering a precipitous decline in sales suggests only the sheer magnitude of their success. This is a win for Shueisha. They have their super dependable 100 Volume long series still selling 7 - 10 million books on an annual basis and they now have clearly discovered a successful pattern for new series. They don't have to worry about finding the next One Piece or even Naruto level success. JJK proves KnY isn't an anomaly. As Captain M said, it's a winning formula which doesn't rely on series like One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, and Dragon Ball which are designed to last for hundreds and hundreds of chapters.

KnY ended after 23 volumes and from what I understand, JJK is unlikely to run for a long time. MHA is clearly rushing toward a conclusion sometime in probably the next 50 - 100 chapters (at most). From what I understand Dr. Stone is also close to ending, leaving Black Clover as the longest consistently running series in Jump (not counting Hunter x Hunter) aside from One Piece.

I'm of the opinion One Piece still has about 11 - 12 years left, which I know is not particularly common given Oda's comments. Personally, I have really loved everything from Zou through Wano and this is the most I have enjoyed weekly One Piece since CP9 through the Paramount War. Oda's clearly enjoying writing his story. A modest decline in sales for a 100 volume long series isn't going to raise any alarms. The fact that the series is still reliably selling so well is a strength, not a weakness. And they still have cards to play that will probably increase One Piece manga sales again in the future. I already mentioned the live action series. When the series does eventually approach its climax, the end of One Piece is going to be big news. And they can also reboot the anime, whether that's a full remake like FMA Brotherhood / HxH 2011, or an edited version like DBZ Kai remains to be seen.

It's a weird case where the current anime has stuck to the story of One Piece unlike FMA Brotherhood. One Piece has consistently run in the magazine, so the anime wasn't forced to end like Hunter x Hunter. So it's harder t justify a full remake of the series. At the same time, the first two story sagas in the anime are very clos to the pacing of the manga. Without much fat to trim, it's hard to imagine a DBZ Kai style reboot having as much appeal. Not to mention, One Piece transitioned from 4:3 to 16:9 during its lifetime and there are dramatic pacing issues and some rough animation in later story sagas. There could also be some competition between an anime reboot and the live action series considering they would be covering the same part of the story. I'm not saying they absolutely wil reboot the anime, just saying it's a card they could play that would boost manga sales. My bet is that the current anime series will end 1 - 2 years after the manga finally concludes, which means a solid decade if Robby is right and One Piece ends in 7 years, or even longer if my estimate of 11 - 12 years for the manga is correct.

I would bet more money on a sequel or some type of anime-original story set in the world of One Piece like Boruto following the conclusion of the manga. They'll let time pass and remake the One Piece anime sometime farther into the future when several years have passed from the conclusion of the current series. They'll make it high budget, seasonal, and start from the beginning.

The last point I will make is that Naruto sold about 7.4 million copies in its peak year, 2010, and declined to 3+ million in 2015, the year it ended. One Piece, in a 'slump' year with only 3 volumes, is still putting up comparable to Naruto at its peak. And Naruto is a series considered to be a mega hit by Shueisha. One Piece is not in any danger and any predictions of doom or even concern are not really justified. Sheuisha is still spending a ton of money on promoting One Piece. Think about all the fanfare surrounding chapter 1000, volume 100, and episode 1000. There's a new film next year, an upcoming live action series, and as discussed, there are ways they can perpetuate the success of One Piece even after Oda finally finishes creating his masterpiece manga. No one is going to rush Oda along or urge him to change the course of his series to capture sales / an audience that aren't his to capture. A series has to play to its own strengths. One Piece is 100+ volumes long and it would be ruined by trying to capture the same audience as Demon Slayer and JJK. One Piece just needs to stay the course until it reaches the end of its voyage, which I hope is not too fast approaching.

Both are possible. Both KnY and JJK have either more individual volume sales this year or have actually sold more per volume. Heck, KnY even surpassed Dragonball in sales per volume, which is crazy.
Having said that, OP both declined (unless people switched to digital) and also still relies to back sales to a certain extent, see difference between new volume sales and overall sales and the other two (by extension SnK) are incredible successes.
At the height of its success per year, OP was still "only" selling around 3-3.5 million copies for new volumes, so the majority of its sales back then were also due to back sales.
But from that number, OP now dropped to 2-2.5 million, which is still far ahead of 99% of other mangas, but also still a decline of 30-33%, that´s not nothing.

But you go too easy on OP. Regardless of what i think of OP currently, or the fact that what OP as manga represents is incredible, and the success it achieved and is still achieving is amazing, Shueisha still failed to accomplish what they wanted to do, namely to create another Marineford with Wano. Marineford happened 11 years ago, basically you have a whole new generation of teenager readers to hook, and OP, at least from the volume sales, has not achieved that. And those new readers probably went to KnY and JJK, for different reasons, some zeltrax mentioned in his post.

So to summarize and clarify:

1. Whatever OP achieved and is still achieving is tremendous.
2. It still shows a clear trend.

@King:

One Piece was at the peak of its popularity when it was exactly that (Marineford).

That´s too simplistic of a few to be honest, of course same applied to kdom´s post to a certain extent.

1. MF was only 30 chapters, if you put the entire post-war stuff to it, 47 chapters, which back then was approximately one year.

2. MF was pure action, and the other characters with focus were mostly show in context of action, or were already introduced far earlier, thus already familiar to the readers/audience, so did not require any characterization. Except of course Whitebeard and Akainu, who are both huge characters.

@andre:

It seems the industry is in a more healthy place than it was when One Piece was king for a decade and everything else was kind of falling off.

Besides OP being that superior, i don´t think so.
You had a far more diverse top ten back then (Nodame, Nana, FMA, Gintama, Death Note, Major, Honey and Clover, 20th Century Boys, Saint Young Men…).
Of course the market was dominated by action shounen with OP, Naruto and Bleach but after that, you could have different genres, target audience, subject matter and so forth.
Now the top 10 is filled with action shounen or action shounen like.

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@auem:

I have read the full manga of Demon Slayer. It is so mediocre. Even if anime is so great, it doesn't justify the popularity. It's sales/volume is above OP, which is ridiculous. My view is that nowadays mediocre things get hyped more often. Same thing is happening in manga industry.

It depends on what you expect from a series.
Oda is both too long and also requires attention to understand the context of arcs, characters, events and so forth.
Most people just don´t want to invest that kind of attention and time, fairly normal.

And Yaiba and JJK had such great animes that they attracted a lot of casual viewers who wanted to know how it continues -> buy the volumes.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@zeltrax225:

JJK is really good, its the closest we can get to HxH for our generation. People should seriously try it out before raining on the popularity parade because its not One Piece.
You don't get why it is good and why it is popular, it is on you. The reason you get why One Piece is popular and sank hours into it is also on you, alot of people don't have that dedication and are casual about it, especially with Demon Slayer. Attack on Titan selling like hotcakes make a lot of sense considering it is the last volume and whatever the ending is(its only the last chapter that ruined everything), closure is a thing for people who have been collecting.

The chart isn't as illogical as people think, if anything it shows that there is competency for the torch to be handed over to the next generation.
SPY Family, Kingdom, Haikyuu are all insanely good manga that is cream of the crop and they rightfully made that list. Just because KnY has what most would consider a slightly above average story does not invalidate the entire list. KnY also created this craze and insane wave across the world that has not been seen before for a long time for the community. Whether you like it or not, people who hasn't touched a manga volume before are now coming in.

I like KnY and can see why it is popular but I can also understand why people don't find the story special.
I don't like Tokyo Revengers and don't find the story speical, but can understand why it is popular and loved.
It's not that difficult.

Completely agreed.

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@mrsword:

2 years would've been fine.

Wano is approaching its FOURTH year now, its already over 3.5 years long.

At some point you just get sick of it. Move on already

The length would not be a problem if it was justified to be honest.

@Zik:

Yes it does.

All of the admirals have different personalities and are subject to different whims.

And yet he still took a random bike ride to check up on Robin, almost killed her and Luffy. You're providing the examples that directly contradict what you've said.

That had nothing to do with the balance of power or an extraordinary circumstance like Marineford.

Not only that but admirals are at the beck and call of the celestial dragons. Kuzan showing up in Saboady was cuz celestial dragon was punched. Not killed or kidnapped. No balance of power in jeopardy

Something the worst generation pirates are not.

Amd yet Sakazuki personally showed up when Bonney was left helpless after being defeated by Blackbeard then specifically remarked about the importance of her previously escaping the marines before and why that required his presence then.

The Marines doing their job doesn't have to be seen as "making moves". Their new stance and HQ presence in the New World was a direct message to the pirate emperors after the death of Whitebeard and the start of this new age.

It doesn´t, the personalities do not disprove every other context we have.

And it was underlined that this is a rare occurrence, hence why the entire HQ was on high alert, because one Admiral decided to leave on a whim.
It´s literally the exception that proves the rule, not that this happens for any pirate.
Putting aside the clear personal investment of Aokiji in Robin by the way, which we have nothing of the sort for Aka/Kid.
Tenryuubito i adressed. Unless you are talking about Kid somehow having something to do with the Tenryuubito, which is another claim not remotely substantiated, they are irrelevant to the point that Admirals at best move for the big events.
Or you are talking about Kid supposedly being an accomplice 2 years ago in Shabondy, which is also irrelevant, see Law becoming a Shichibukai.

They literally are second rate pirates, because they are not first rate, which is reserved for the Yonkou.

Which was in context with the war, as i said.

They do, if you want to substantiate your point, which you haven´t.
There has to be an example of Marines trying to disrupt the happenings in the New World actively, for a Fleet Admiral to actually do that personally and so on, nothing of the sort happened, which was directly addressed in the manga, they are preparing.

@Zik:

It makes sense since we're talking about Sakazuki.

If there are notorious pirates in the area he'd chase them down. Especially members of the worst generation.

Besides that I missed where the marines stopped doing their jobs for two whole years to prepare and gather strength.

It doesn´t, no matter who it is.

The Admirals being relevant in the manga and playing a significant role only happens when there are very extraordinary circumstances, akin to a shift in the balance of powers like the war 2 years ago and everything that happened in connection with that. Otherwise, it is underlined several times they rarely move out of HQ.
Aokiji roaming around was a thorn in the eyes of the Gorosei for example, and Fujitora only moved because it involved the balance of powers (Doflamingo), Aokiji recommended they do so because the implications were far-reaching in context with Doflamingo and his business partners being the Yonkou.
And Kizaru moving is apparent, the Tenryuubito were involved.

In addition, Sakazuki 2 years ago had the whole succession thing going on, and after becoming Fleet Admiral, he is not going after second rate pirates personally.
It can´t be Sakazuki because it is exactly not his job to confront Kid and Killer, not 2 years ago, and even less after becoming the leader of the whole operation.

So Sakazuki would have ignored all the rules and circumstances of his position, both pre-and post succession, which can only be explained with a massive hate boner for Kid particularly, which was not even remotely hinted at.

Regarding the Marines doing their job thing, also stated several times that while the HQ being moved to the New World could be seen as a declaration of war, the Marines hardly made moves in the New World, contrary to their new stance, and it was explained away by them preparing for a big moment, hence my statement.

@Zik:

Sakazuki going after some of the supernova after moving the marine headquarters to the New World side makes sense. Especially after pirates like Bonney and Kid.

Not really. Akainu going to the New World during the two years that, by several accounts, were about preparing and gathering strength rather than actual battles, makes zero sense with all the context we know.

@Deicide:

It seems Bonney was actually crying for Kuma in Marineford, as the Reverie events would later show a connection between them, maybe blood relation.

–----------------

Well, since Bonney is the subject here now, here's something to think about. It carries very little weight, as it's merchandise an we have no clue if Oda had any input in the order, of characters for twelve months there was a promotion from a japanese wedding company that designed wedding dresses for several One Piece characters, one per month, in this order:

- Nami

• Vivi
• Perona
  - Robin
• Shirahoshi
• Hiyori
  - Hancock
• Carrot
• Tashigi
  - Bonney
• Pudding
• Big Mom (Yeah, Big Mom was the big surprise last character, lol).

I don't think it means anything, but Nami and Robin were separated by two other characters, making each of them the first of a trimester. And Hancock and Bonney were the ones to follow that trend.

Which would be an intended misdirection, or the least clumsy. The entire context was Whitebeard being accused of selling out his allies, every Supernova was reacting to Whitebeard supposedly selling them out and the feet getting cut off. Same for Bonney stating "it´s all his fault, i will hunt him down/find him in the New World", and next time we see her she has been beaten by Blackbeard.
Hence my earlier statement "unless Oda purposely misdirected things", which is possible of course.
Or he never imagined people making the obvious connection, and since he knew that Bonney was intended to be connected to Kuma, he might never have realized how it looked.

@Syphin:

I don't believe Bonney ever had a connection to Whitebeard and/or Ace. Prior to Bonney's connection to Kuma being revealed, it was a suspicion that held merit but after what we now know, what made Bonney cry in Sabaody Archipelago wasn't what was happening with Ace or the Whitebeard Pirates but what she seen became of Kuma. The presence of the Pacifistas on Sabaody Archipelago and the footage of Kuma during the Battle of Marineford allowed Bonney to deduce what had happened and upon such a conclusion, she realised she would never see "Kuma" again.

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The relevance of Kuma also comes into play again when Bonney makes the comment about 'everything being his fault' and how they have to find him which entailed going to the New World. The person she was targeting wasn't Blackbeard but in all likelihood, Dr. Vegapunk. Bonney blames Vegapunk for what happened to Kuma. From my interpretation, Bonney was caught because it was Blackbeard who was targeting her and not because she was after Teach. The reason Blackbeard captured her is because he was aware of her value to the Marines and wished to leverage that to bargain for a battleship to upgrade his poor excuse for a New World worthy ship - the log raft. Sakazuki didn't play ball and flexed his gambler side. Sakazuki's comment to Bonney about her escape from the Government causing chills to run down his spine suggest an importance Bonney plays in respect to something relevant to the Marines/World Government. If Blackbeard didn't target Bonney, I don't believe Bonney would have been captured at that time.

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As for what importance Bonney could play to the Marines, I find myself entertaining the thought that Bonney isn't directly important to the Marines/World Government by herself but rather her presence in the Marines serves as a valuable representation of the power the Marines hold over another item of value within their ranks i.e Vegapunk. I believe Bonney's containment by the Marines initially served as influence for Vegapunk to continue committing himself and his brilliance to the efforts of the Marines and World Government. To Vegapunk, Bonney could be somewhat of a daughter that he deeply cares for. Upon the dissolution of MADS and his capture, Bonney may have also been taken at that time. Bonney likely wasn't mistreated by the Marines but her freedom to do what she wants was stripped from her.

Fast forward to Kuma joining the Shichibukai (undercover as a Revolutionary Army member?), he may have come to find out about the truth surrounding Bonney and Vegapunk during his investigations into the Marines weapons research. In order to ascertain the finer details, Kuma may have gotten close to Bonney and developed a kinship with her. Bonney in turn could have become inspired by Kuma's stories of freedom and the romance of the sea (which led ). As their relationship grew, Kuma may have chosen to sacrifice his undercover operation in favour of helping Bonney. As such he could have helped in Bonney's initial escape from the Marines and ultimately used research into him as payment for his actions. At this point, I don't believe Bonney and Kuma are connected through the Sorbet Kingdom. Bonney is aware that the Sorbet Kingdom was the nation Kuma once ruled but she is likely not a citizen of it.

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By the time Bonney escaped, Vegapunk likely became aware of how all-encompassing the reach of the World Government was and knew that even with Bonney free, he could not protect her from their darkness unless he continued working for the Marines. Sakazuki still wished for Bonney's return because a piece he can control is easier to dictate than one outside his reach.

I suspect when Vegapunk learns the truth about Kuma and what he did for Bonney, the tragic irony of his actions would wash over him and bring him to a realisation. The person he killed through his science was ultimately the one attempting to save him (through saving Bonney). The realisation of Kuma's sacrifice will be what inspires Vegapunk to turn against the Marines. Even in death, Kuma will serve as an ally to the Straw Hat Pirates through his actions.

See above.

Unless Oda does a complete misdirect and i am misinterpreting scenes, Bonney also has a relation to either WB and or Ace, which was part of why i felt her chances are not bad in the first place.

Now Ace is used for Yamato…

@Zik:

Yeah, pre-Dressrosa I was thinking something like that would naturally fit to add to Luffy's reputation.

Get a former warlord to be your ally and then get another super rookie to join your crew. Those come off as big accomplishments given how the warlords and supernova were introduced and positioned; the former being above Luffy until he started beating them and the latter being his peers.

Son of a yonkou would fall in line with that as well as another big achievement if Katakuri is anything to go by (since there's no way he'd get an actual emperor to join his crew).

That just adds to it as well.
I was mostly going on by her possible relationship with WB/Ace, her animosity towards Blackbeard, her special status for the WG (similarly to Franky and Robin) and a few minor things.

@Shiebs:

Do you guys think Bonney is going to be a prominent ally in later arcs? I mean she seems to be tied to a lot of plots and could potentially be centuries old, possibly even having knowledge on the void century

I would like to see her have a new form of fighting outside of making people young and old, hell anything would do give her nunchucks for all I care

I always thought her setup could lead to being a potential nakama, now with Yamato that seems unlikely to impossible.

@Robby:

I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.

It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

"unlawful sexual activity… forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"

Other dictionary definitions

Hey, what does that sound like?

Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.

Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"

Be consistent with what you argue please, the other two definitions do not represent the way you used it due to the sexual nature you implied, nor is it in any way common in everyday usage and seems outdated (unless i am completely wrong) and i know i am derailing the thread, so last answer from me, especially since, like you said, it was not your main point.
You were clearly using rape in a sexual context, and i am baffled we need to talk about this, it simply was not rape and using the word in such a context is trivializing one of the most disgusting acts you can do to a person.
The first definition is proving my point, the others have no sexual connotation, you used it in a sexual context, and the only thing i argued is, despite the obviously more than questionable behavior of the Kamabakka people, the intent was not of sexual nature but was misguided nevertheless, but even if it has a sexual nature, it is not in any form rape, and distinguishing between rape, sexual assault and harassment is not trivial, regardless whether it´s in everyday usage or criminal context.
Sorry if i look like a stickler and did not agree with a throwaway statement.

Being traumatized and possible rape implications are two different things.
The Kamabakka people were trying to make him adapt to them and give up his "manhood" (which is offensive in itself) by putting on a dress on him and whatever else it entails to be like them. Sanji´s trauma is from defending his manhood for 2 years day and night, since they would constantly chase him and try to put him in the dress.
There is no implication, no metaphor, no hint, that we are supposed to think "they want to rape him, hence Sanji is running", it was all about Sanji defending one of his core personality traits and principles. I also don´t know where the groping and putting their hands all over him and making him a slave comes from, in the manga nothing of the sort happened. Like Robo said, the anime was much more rapey and suggestive in their filler scenes, the manga had one core challenge, Sanji either defending his manliness and love for women, or becoming like the Kamabakka people. Nobody is saying Sanji had a good time, and the Kamabakka people forcing Sanji basically to become like them is problematic for different reasons, rape (which is non synonymous with sexual assault in the first place, just fyi) is not one of them.
And i know this might seem like arguing semantics, but it isn´t, since straight out trying to rape somebody and being misguided in trying to liberate somebody (from their point of view) and harassing him/her are two vastly different things, and distinguishing them should be viable in a forum that has been arguing about the correct pronouns of a fictional character for a year or so.

@wolfwood:

Being chased, forcibly undressed and made to dress in fetish gear is certainly outside of my zone of acceptable behaviour. Try doing that to a woman and explain that i wasn't assaulting her i was just trying to "free her spirit". They were forcing themselves on an unwilling Sunkist and that is enough for it to feel rapey in my book

Which is still not rape. Like i said, i am neither condoning it, nor denying it was not in bad taste, but yeah, its not rape since it both lacks a sexual intention and action.

@wolfwood:

Sure looked like sexual assault to me.

Seems like projection, unless we have a different definition of rape.

Kamabakka did not want to rape Sanji, they wanted to liberate him.
It was in bad taste regardless considering how it was played off, and Sanji´s comments did not help (but Sanji has been a shitty character for 14 years at least at this point, so…), but it was not about rape, not even a implication, hence why Sanji was turned into a cosplayer in the cover story for a while. And i would claim it ties into Ivankov´s speech about being free from the constraints of "male and female" and just being a human in whatever way you personally see fit.

Bounty predictions besides Luffy are pretty hard, since you can never know how the world/Oda is going to estimate captain to subordinate ratio.
Just looking at WCI, Luffy increased to 1.5 billion, whereas Sanji only got a 133 million increase, and most of it was due to being Vinsmoke.
And the other Strawhats that were at WCI did not get any increase which was weird.

If Zoro and Sanji would get treated like Luffy, and simply surpass the guys they beat, both would be around Luffy´s bounty now, but i doubt it works like that.
So i would say both get around a billion or so.
Jinbe will match Cracker or Smoothie.
Robin and Franky around 600 million.
The rest depends on what they gonna do from now on.

Luffy himself will at least surpass Blackbeard, since he essentially will have toppled a Yonkou in contrast to Blackbeard, who only beat a Yonkou crew.
So 3-4 billion sounds right, still lower than the established Yonkou, but higher than Blackbeard who still has to prove himself against another Yonkou (probably Shanks).

A lot of interesting info, though part of me still hesitates to believe them completely due to VCs making mistakes and outright contradicting manga info, or the feeling that some interns are writing the cards with an editor as supervisor and then market them as Oda approved.

Anyway, the bounties of the F6 are expected somewhat, though Pay Pay is a bit low.
Robin and Franky beating around 500 million pirates will push them immensely, and i guess put the order of the Strawhats right. Hope Brook is not left behind.
Jinbe basically crushing WW who has a similar bounty to Ace also tells a lot.
King and Queen apparently are grouped together, with the younger brother Jack.

I read somewhere that "falling down the stairs" is used as euphemism of suicide in Japan, true or not true?

Wasn´t there supposed to be a pause for Carrot discussions?

@Monquito:

Shanks had already moved before Oda's comment.

Unless you're talking of Kidd?

No thinking of the Gorosei meeting.

But yeah you are right, it should be be 60-70 chapters ago.

@All:

“That red haired man will make a move next year” was the tease from last year.
Forgot the one from the year before.

He did make a move though.
And the year before he just hancock and so on are in danger, whats gonna happen to them, something along those lines.

Until Oden leaving Wa No and going with Roget to Raftel and thus allowing Kaidou and Orochi to torment the island and its citizens is at least presented in a questionable light beyond a joke scene, there is no narratively satisfying possibility of Yamato staying on the island, thats just how it is.
Because for whatever reason it could happen, you always will have the implication that Yamato gave up the dreams in order to stay and fulfill some kind of duty, and that has never been presented as fullfilling for a character. Its like Franky staying back to look after the gang.

If Oda highlights that Odens decision at least partly led to the current state and thus Yamato could do something Oden did not do or could not do ok (for example if the world government attacks at the end and opening the borders of Wano will automatically also open it up for dangers).
This has not happened though.

@Solid:

His dead mentor is Oden, there is really nothing that suggests otherwise, it's just fans hoping for a more traditional SH flashback even though there has never been any indication of it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

While Jinbe's flashback may have been less personal compared to the other SHs, it was still personal, and we could follow his character development from it until the present, don't think its even comparable to the panels yamato might get in a kaido centred flashback.

Jinbe was the narrator telling the story of the two main characters of Fishman Island, Tiger and Otohime. The flashback was about these two figures and Fishman Island´s history, and Jinbe is part of that history, but it was not about Jinbe´s personal history. And people rightfully expected another Jinbe flashback since his is the only one being an outlier compared to the other nine.
Yamato being part of Wa No/Oden flashback, which she already is as spectator, plus in regards to Kaidou, is enough based on Jinbe, not based on the other Strawhats.

@Solid:

At this point I don't think we will even get another Yamato flashback, after the one with Ace, the panels when he was a kid and witnessing Odens execution, along with Kaidos reasoning why he wants Yamato to be shogun, everything has been covered, so unless Oda wants to show us something new or just show us Yamato getting spanked there really isn't anything else.

Yeah after Jinbe i am not always expecting a completely personal flashback

@Zar:

To maybe start a new discussion for a bit, are there any characters in this arc - that are not Yamato, Carrot or Tama - you wish would travel with Luffy? Doesn't matter how realistic the chance is or whether they'd join the crew or be there as guests.

Because honestly… I'm gonna miss Kin'emon. He really grew on me this arc and it would've been fun to see his reactions to the wonders (and horrors) of the world. That said I'm NOT gonna miss having a third swordsman / pervert. Another character I'd like to see travel with them is X Drake, I like the guy and having to buddy with a "marine" would be neat.

Caribou as Caesar replacement.

@DarthAsthma:

I think everyone with any kind of base understanding of storytelling understands we're going to get some form of payoff for the Carrot defeat. There is just literally no universe in my mind where Oda manages to make that moment alone satisfying enough for me to go yep that crewmate material. Oda intentionally has just massively ignored this character and if the intention was for her to be a crewmate he has just massively sabotaged himself with the amount of character neglect he has done.
Also again the clock is ticking on people that frankly can't read. 1016 is just so massively on the nose I literally can't understand how you think it's Oda unnecessarily playing some kind of dumbass 14 d chess red herring bullshit vs Oda just constantly raising the point because he plans to pay it off satisfyingly.
It's honestly like back with Paulie/Franky with people denying shit post flashback.
And some of the arguments are honestly Agog level awful.

It´s more like Brook. Apparently Brook joining was too obvious since the moment we meet him, Luffy asks him, he is going to die, he has to find Laboon and the list goes on.

I am surprised to be honest that so many people are still wasting time on Carrot.

@andre:

Sadly, Oda didn't put Condoriano in the giant colorspread of marines so I doubt he'll havae the G8 marines show up again.

He should be from an agency besides the Marines since i doubt they audit themselves. /wishful thinking.

@King:

Guys, do not forget that characters struggling about leaving or staying is not a new thing in this series.

Sanji, Chopper and Franky have all went through it. They all felt like they had a duty to achieve by staying, but eventually decided to leave.

Vivi is the only person who has ever chosen to remain, but that was not due to duty, but because she genuinely loved Arabasta. Yamato, if he's supposed to stay in Wano, has to be out of free will, not because he feels guilty or responsible for Wano because he's some guardian deity of somesuch. What matters is what Yamato wants.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Well, Yamato already proved he has no problem leaving important Wano people behind if it means getting more involved in fights, so an innate sense of protection is unlikely.

Not to mention Yamato has no real attachment to Wano. He cares about it because it was Oden's country.

Sanji and Franky yeah, for Chopper, after Wapol was defeated, that was not the reason, his insecurities in regards to being a monster were.

@DollarScholar:

I like your theories but I would argue that simply eating a logia doesn't really prepare you for the new world where everyone has haki

If it´s a powerful Logia it´s enough. We have seen two people gain powers live basically and they immediately went all out with it, Sabo and Blackbeard.
So she would have enough power. Physically she would still be weak, but that´s basically Nami now, very high attack power with Zeus, but can´t deal with a traditional fight.

@Blowfish:

I couldn't provide you with a source , I just remember it was before or around the time of Dressrosa, so naturally when the Grand Fleet thing happened, we all assumed it was that naturally and it could still be, but now that we might have Jinbe and Yamato joining under the same toast or banquet, this all makes more sense.

"I think I can keep drawing in next decade and we will get new nakama successively." China Times (2014)

Tama is Aisa or Rebecca, young characters who get inspired by Luffy and also create a bond for Luffy to the island, so he has a personal reason to fight. Admittedly Momo is that as well, but the state of Wa No was not tangible for Luffy until he saw how Tama suffered.

@Zik:

Ok then no need to quantify it then. It certainly is not the main point.

If you're serious about this part then you haven't been paying attention.

I'd suggest you just reread my posts before I bother to reply again.

Did you misunderstand my sarcastic statement about you stating they fought for multiple hours?

Or did you not remember what was shown of the fight?

Common sense is not a deflection.

Already did say but it's based on Ulti's showing in the story. Again common sense.

We're not talking about Nami's knowledge of weather though.

You cant have it both ways. You're pretending like the climatact is a reflection of Nami's power as a fighter when its a tool that was ineffective before until through means of Big Mom it became a more powerful weapon.

Nami landing the finishing blow on Ulti has nothing to do with her knowledge of weather.

But I get you'll keep pretending like it is.

This is one of those reread my replies questions cuz I know I did this already.

Think you just couldn't accept it.

The group consisting of individual members are haki users. What is seriously hard to comprehend about that?

We're not talking about one character though.

If you don't understand, sure.

The rest still don't matter. I'm talking about commander to commander.

Saying a kid used haki is irrelevant.

You seriously still don't understand the statement if this is still the question. I explained it more than one way and you seem to still not get it.

The commanders. That's who I'm talking about.

Not Pekoms.

You managed to quote the post. Identify the topic of my post and still bring up characters that don't matter when it comes to defeating BM's commanders.

Another deflection. I do not want a discussion, but proof, different requirements, also pretty straightforward.
I wonder why it is so hard to do it, yet here you are posting half a dozen time and wasting time.
Yes, reason for it would be a page in the manga to substantiate your claims.
Like you said, before you bother replying, just give me that page.

Nothing was shown of the fight except the ending.
Sure it was a sarcastic statement, another deflection.
Why to people on the net have to be so hard-headed…

What showings are those, once again, substantiate them for me, give me a scene, an instance, a page, that underlines that claim.
Anything else is a deflection and hot air.

Zeus adds to the clima-tact, it does not replace it.
Nami´s mastery over the clima-tact, which her knowledge of weather is a part of, is not replaced by Zeus but additionally powered up.
See WCI and Wa No, especially chapter 1016.

Yes i am stupid Zik-sama, take pity on me and repeat your proof again please for the less gifted people like me.

And how does that translate to denying my claim that BM Pirates are at least equally as impressive since they had far more Haki users.

Yes, repeat it please.

And i refuted that point by saying that even people below the commanders were more impressive than Sasaki, who you claimed the commanders besides Katakuri looked like in strength. Pretty straightforward once again.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Zhenja:

While Pekoms, Tamago and co. have a brain to use and make tactics, the Numbers seem to be lacking that, and are only good for their raw strength.
Comparing titles is the most useless thing to do… comparison per se is useless...

Best example, why title comparison is useless, would be Garp. While he's a Vice Admiral, we all know that no other Vice Admiral is near his level.
And while we know why he's just a Vice Admiral, and that he's above that title... it doesn't matter... because his title is... Vice Admiral.

Zoro is also a combatant... doesn't mean you can compare him to Pekoms, Tamago, the Numbers or any other people with that same title...

That's why title comparison is the most useless comparison in all the other bullshit comparisons...

I could make more example for other titles, but I don't want to waste my time with that... so...

That would imply that Brook, once given the opportunity, could as easily take care of those two as he did against the number, but would first need to overcome their tricky abilities in a normal circumstance, something that is also not substantiated. Putting aside Pekoms´ Sulong, Brook being able to do that against them has never been hinted.
Just looking at Tamago vs Pedro already denies that prospect.

Sure, Garp, the only major exception of the Vice Admirals, who is also far more crucial to the story and hence has gotten more exposition, including the knowledge that he could have become Admiral whenever he wanted to, is proving that positions are useless to quantify side character number 81.

Strawhats are not a Yonkou crew divided into different hierarchy levels to underline to the reader what their respective position, both in terms of authority and power, is.
And Zoro also does not have the official title combatant like Tamaga and Pekoms had.

In addition, it has been underlined that the Yonkou and their crews, while the particular make-up can be different to a certain extent (like Whitebeard having 16 commanders for example), the relative level of the crews match each other, hence, while it certainly does not have to be completely equal, similar positions will have similar strength, at least in terms of the three Yonkou crews (Blackbeard Pirates are certainly gonna be different).
A commander of one Yonkou crew is not far outfighting a commander of another crew, and that was the claim that was done.

@Zik:

LOL If Oda doesn't why should I?

You seem to badly want a power scaling discussion in some form. Good luck getting that.

"Fought" is pushing it lol.

Its common sense. I cant make you have it.

You are pretending as if the climatact is some sort of weapon that depends on the user's strength or something.

It does not. Anybody can use it to form a storm cloud that shoots lightning. The only reason the climatact was able to become a more powerful weapon is cuz of Big Mom.

The main reason Ulti loss is cuz of Big Mom.

I would definitely say the same of you. Your judgement is proving to be incredibly questionable. No reason for me to pay any mind to who you think is tripping.

I still don't think you understood what I said.

I said those characters were enough to see that the group are haki users.

So your question doesn't make sense unless you forgot what we were talking about.

We are not talking about hundreds of beast pirates though. We never were.

We're talking about the top officers/commanders. The tobi roppo, Jack, Queen, and King.

Now it really seems like you've forgotten what the topic is. Its strange.

So what?

I wasn't talking about them either.

I don´t want a discussion at all, i just want your claim substantiated, the claim that you seem to hold without any reason for it.
Not that hard.

These claims for example:
@Zik:

This idea that the sweet commanders are somehow better than the lead performers is so weird to me. I guess it's just cuz their arc was all escape from the yonkou while the Beast Pirates have been built up to be defeated.

The way I see it, outside of Katakuri (and maybe Peros) the rest of those guys wouldn't stand a chance against Queen and Jack.

The sweet commanders (minus the obvious) all feel Sasaki level to me.

If any future arc involves beating the BM pirates, the strawhats will curb stomp them.

The story tells us they fought.

!

Stop trying to deflect, talking about common sense.
You said she can, it has to be based on something.
If it´s your fantasy, just say so, i won´t mind.

Yes, and Nami´s usage of it in combination with her weather knowledge has always been treated as irrelevant.
Only that it hasn´t.

My dude, you claimed something, i asked for proof, and then you started talking about something else, and once again i asked for proof.
So yes, give me anything to substantiate the views you seem to hold.

"The group are haki users", ehm what?
Since when is one character of a group having an ability automatically applies to every character in that group?
Makes no sense whatsoever.

I am very clear about the topic, thank you.
Half of the F6 did not show Haki, which i pointed out is a stark contrast to the Big Mom Pirates, who had even low level officers, literally weakest kids out of nearly hundred kids, had use Armament Haki.
So once again, by what metric is having three guys using Haki "enough"?

Last i checked, all the characters mentioned are part of the BM Pirates, who you claimed would get curbstomped, so yes, you were talking about them.

@Zik:

A lot

Why do you think I'm talking about specific powers?

I was just talking about Ulti being able to do w/e the sweet commanders did. Specifically you mentioning Cracker fighting Luffy.

But Nami did use Big Mom's power (in conjunction with her climatact) to bring down Ulti.

No. I'm perfectly balanced.

We're talking about them using haki, did you forget?

So what? We're talking about yonkou commanders/officers. Not the numbers and since when are they the equivalent of anything? When was that ststed in the story? Seems like you're just making things up to talk about Brook.

Quantify it.

Cracker fought Luffy for 16 hours.
Proof to me Ulti could do the same, a straightforward request.
And not your fantasies, but manga panels.

In conjunction with her own, that´s the key.

Does not seem like it.

And i am asking for what were they enough?
How is three out of hundreds of Beast Pirates using Haki enough?

Numbers are the combatants of the Beast Pirates, the equivalent of guys like Tamago or Pekoms.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Kaido:

Brook is seen taking down BM combatants that aren't homies in Chapter 849 and 876. Not to mention standing against Big Mom in Chapter 851. And obviously he is stronger now.

Chopper doing nothing in WCI is more of a testament to how WCI handled him rather than any real discrepancy in his ability. Not to mention Perospero's powers are wildly different compared to Queen's.

Ultimately, the question is, would Robin, Franky, and Jinbe (who actually fully took on and beat Tobiroppo) be able to challenge and take down Big Mom's stronger child officers (who seem roughly parallel to the Tobiroppo). And I say sure, why wouldn't they? Brook and Chopper aren't included in that so I don't see what all the fuss is about regarding them.

And I personally don't agree with the claim that the Beasts Pirates are better than BM Pirates, that is nonsense. Clearly they are roughly equal; maybe you could make the case that Kaido is slightly stronger individually while Big Mom has the stronger subordinates, but it would only be by a slim margin.

Do you know their name? I doubt it. Why is Brook stronger now? Proof for that please.
849 had random mook who nobody knows and Oda did not bother to introduce. 876 had one additional guy to chess soldiers, and both Brook and Chopper were huffing and puffing.

Why is Chopper doing nothing in WCI and doing nothing here regarded differently?
When were Queen and Perospero compared in their level?
There is a reason that despite his experience, his bounty and his power Perospero still is not considered a sweet commander.

And i have not claimed otherwise. I can even see Brook beating a combatant after a heavy fight, something that, except for Luffy, had no time and purpose in WCI.
Just refuting the claim that Beast Pirates are so much better for some reason, despite Brook and Chopper getting wrecked quickly, yet here Brook is joking around oneshotting the equivalents of combatants and ministers.

@Kaido:

I'm really not sure what comparison you're trying to make here as neither of those two characters beat a Tobiroppo. They had plenty of bravado when decimating Big Mom's forces prior to the Perospero encounter. And that's not even mentioning Brook's Treasure Room scene.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Luffy and co. don't care bro

No, Brook at least beat a number. What combatants did he beat in WCI? Chopper was matched against Queen so far after taking care of the virus, in WCI he basically did nothing.
Brook took care of the homie soldiers because that´s literally his ability, being the only one having a counter against them.
He easily disposed of a number and several combatants while playing around in Wa No already.

So i don´t know where the claim that the Beast Pirates are so much better comes from.

@Zik:

Based on how much damage she took from Big Mom and her overall resilience displayed.

After BM softened her up and she did it with Big Mom's homie that was maxe from part of her soul which is why its stronger than most homies.

I'd rank Yamato as stronger than the sweet commanders as well (minus Katakuri)

Don't need it.

Ulti, Who's Who, Jack, etc. were enough.

I'm right about Brook and Chopper not even fighting any of the Beast pirate officers one on one let alone beating them but if you're talking about what Brook has said, sure he made fun of them. He made fun of the sweet commanders too.

How much was it?
What does resilience have to do with specific powers?

Sure, still shows you don´t need BM power to bring her down. Nami might have taken a few more hits, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Then you are tripping.

For what were they enough?

Obviously you are right, they have not fought yet.
Still Brook oneshotted a Number without any problems, the equivalent of BM combatants.
Which SC did he make fun of?

@Zik:

Pretty sure Ulti could've done all that had the strawhats not specifically strategized for Luffy to not waste energy on anybody but Kaido.

Instead it took Big Mom to take her down.

Same with thinking the officers are not haki users. That's ignoring whats actually in the story.

I don't see the point of even bringing up Chopper or Brook as if they've defeated any Tobi Roppo.

Pretty sure based on what? What has Ulti done to justify that?

Nami took her down. She also passed out against Yamato.

Panels of all of them using Haki please.

Brook has been making fun of them, you are right.

@Zik:

The story does.

And no, it being false is just your opinion.

The story had Cracker match Luffy for 16 hours, and in the end he was finally beaten by his own arrogance.
The story had many Big Mom Pirates being actual Haki users in addition to having dangerous abilities, the perceived second strongest of the F6 needed to risk mutual destruction to pierce Shogun, something Dressrosa officers did with ease.
The story had Oven getting kicked by Sanji, shot by Bege, pierced by several lasers by Ichiji, and he still continued on.
Meanwhile Sasaki was nearly knocked out by a Gaon Cannon, something those previously mentioned Dressrosa officers even took, and then disposed of by one laser. Same Oven had the entire Sun Pirates at his mercy.
The same Brook and Chopper who are easily disposing of Beast Pirates combatants while joking around were completely helpless in front of Perospero, who is technically the equivalent of the Tobi Roppo.

The list goes on and on, your impression has nothing to do with the story.

@Shiebs:

I’m surprised more people haven’t been clamoring for Momo to join after the end of the last chapter, I mean the main reason people thought he couldn’t or wouldn’t join was because he was a child, which the last chapter kind of fixes, I mean he’ll still have the mind and soul of a child but…..

To be fair I still don’t think he’ll join at all I’m just pointing out that I thought there would be more people on board after this

I think the main reason was because he is carrying the burden of Wa No, is the rightful Shogun and has expressed wanting to become Shogun.
And some people claimed he can´t be a Shogun since he is a child, i don´t think it was the other way around. We literally have Momo around for nearly 400 chapters now through a lot of stuff.

@Zik:

This idea that the sweet commanders are somehow better than the lead performers is so weird to me. I guess it's just cuz their arc was all escape from the yonkou while the Beast Pirates have been built up to be defeated.

The way I see it, outside of Katakuri (and maybe Peros) the rest of those guys wouldn't stand a chance against Queen and Jack.

The sweet commanders (minus the obvious) all feel Sasaki level to me.

If any future arc involves beating the BM pirates, the strawhats will curb stomp them.

Then you should seriously examine what makes you think that since that impression is entirely false.

It´s gonna happen.

@Thatfruitydude:

I like your idea about having them hold off Big Mom instead of going at it with Kaido I think that does make a lot of sense.

I will disagree though about Luffy not being paralleled with Oden I think it is very clear that Oden and Luffy have a lot in common while still being different. The samurai and the straw hats are pretty obviously direct parallels imo. Maybe they should be more perpendicular lol but I think not seeing how they are suppose to mirror each other is kind of obtuse. Sorry for all the geometry terms lol.

Last answer in this thread since Greg asked to not use this thread as discussion place for it.

On a basic terms, sure, there have been minor parallels, but this arc was full of characters of it. Zoro is paralleling Oden and taking the sword, the scabbards used Oden attacks, Momo, Yamato…
But i don´t like the claim of Oden doing everything himself. He literally left Wa No to the scabbards even knowing something is wrong.
I think it makes much more sense that Oden and Momo are two separate leaders, mostly because Momo is obviously a child, but even as a child Oden was completely different. And Momo´s struggle has been having the burden, partly, of matching his father.

@Thatfruitydude:

Idk if this is a popular theory but I think thematically this makes a lot of sense and the points he’s bringing up seem pretty solid. Oden was a leader who always took all the responsibility and did things without his crew which his crew thinks was wrong. Luffy will “allow” his crew to help him against Kaido. He also ties it into Thriller Bark which was our first real set up for Wano which was also about the crew helping Luffy together and the value of crew mates. He predicts a similar situation where the crew will hold off Kaido for Luffy until Luffy can finish the fight.

Thoughts?

Don´t think so, for several reasons.

1. This is the arc that will have the Strawhats be recognized as a complete Yonkou main crew. When he was declared as the fifth one by newspaper, several people commented on him not being ready for it. The strawhats have had their fight, and they did what they needed to do in order to prove being worthy of a Yonkou crew. If Luffy can´t prove it by himself at this point, that setup and claim lacks legitimacy. The dude in the video claimed just beating their respective opponents would not be enough to fulfill the parallel to the scabbards and that it would not be any different than any other arc, but they have never met a Yonkou crew like this before, and he also literally names the arc in which we had the same thing, Thriller Bark and Strawhats vs Oars.

2. Kaidou is not as stupid as Oars, and he is not even remotely as vulnerable as Oars, we literally had a training intermission for Luffy to even hurt Kaidou remotely.

3. Kaidou vs Strawhats really has no setup whatsoever, besides Zoro, the other Strawhats have not even met Kaidou.

4. Luffy and Oden were never contrasted because Luffy was never supposed to be Oden, he is JoyBoy with every implication that comes with. We have two people who represent Oden in this arc, it´s Momo and Yamato, with different aspects. Momo, in contrast to his father, always relied on the scabbards and is now stepping up in his own way. And Yamato has the adventure stuff going for her.

5. There is a Yonkou that pretty much all the Strawhats have had interactions and a relationship with though, and that´s Big mom. I personally feel Kid and Law are going to lose (another case of Dressrosa), and the Strawhats are going to occupy (maybe even more) Big Mom. There is too much history and animosity between the Strawhats and BM to ignore that and force an Oars like battle against Kaidou.

@Monquito:

We don't actually know what Yamato does exactly.

Glacier does not leave many possibilities beyond ice/snow/cold wind.

Anyway, wasn´t here for quite some time, seeing your avy, i remember vaguely talking about how underestimating your match-ups are of the Strawhats. Are you disappointed that your predictions did not come true?