Posts made by Hedron

I feel like the commanders reveal it's the kind of thing that normally would've been condensed in half a chapter, but shorter chapters also happen so that's fine I guess.
The loudspeaker gag was great. So the crow guy was already with Sabo at the end of Dressrosa, weird, but maybe it can be be explained since Dragon hadn't already called them or maybe because he already wanted to meet them at Kamabakka. I don't remember the time frame between the end of Dressrosa and Dragon mentioning the commanders so I'd have to reread that part. And we've yet to know the details of their supposed clash (?) with BB. Btw I don't know if it has already been said but it's very likely that the purpose of that whole plot thread is that BB stole a poneglyph / got a copy of it/them from the revos, or at least got some info about the WG or some ancient weapon.
I thought the Revolutionaries were already fighting a war against the Celestial Dragons, but I guess it means that now they will attack them directly instead of just freeing the counties that are under their domain.

@Blissed:

The bolded is pretty much my stance, but it was admittedly always a concern to me that:
1. Pound had even less valid theories going for him than Pedro did, especially with Oven turning out to be completely fine. The only thing that currently comes to mind is Oven deciding at basically the last millisecond to let him go, which would be extremely weird given Oven's characterization.

My stance too. As for the dynamic of the thing, it reminds me so much of Doflamingo killing Bellamy in Mock Town, I wouldn't be surprised if he just survived without a clear explaination.

@Robby:

Pedro being dead gives credibility to the threat.

I'm thinking that storywise, there could also be a more specific reason to have Pedro killed (or apparently killed, I think there's a chance he's alive too) in Tottoland the way he was, and that is to prepare the readers for another -and likely more impactful- death in Wano arc.

I think Sanji will wear it, simply because I feel like Oda teased it just by introducing the suit. If he didn't want him to wear it then he wouldn't have done that in the first place I think, he knows that after bringing the suit into play a lot of readers want it to happen.
Don't like it at all right now, but who knows how this will be handled. I just hope that he won't absolutely need it to defeat one of his next opponents and that he will use it just one time.
Sanji using it to save someone or even the whole crew could be fine if the situation were really extreme, or maybe even if there was an extremely broken enemy that should be defeated in order to save someone or something, and after using the suit he were to surpass its power like others have suggested. But it still would be better if he wins at least a fight without it.

If it really is a one time thing then I have no idea if something will happen to it after Sanji uses it and what could that be. I sure love the Mecha Sunny idea, and we've yet to meet Vegapunk after all. I don't like Usopp using it because it would change his character too much, and Franky using it would be cool but still kinda out of place.

@BobLoblaw:

Considering your current argument, it's probably for the best.

She is a mink, minks jump high and live on trees, it's a quick connection, it's not different from putting someone with wings there. And I already posted a ton of reasons why to me it doesn't seem to be much more than that.
I honestly don't see what's so unreasonable about it, but I guess I get taunted so easily holy hell lol.

@AvocadoInTheRain:

I thought she was no better equipped to be lookout than anyone else? Isn't that another argument you've been saying?

@Hedron:

She is a mink that jumps high and it is unexceptional to put her in the crow's nest when Usopp is in Wano.

But Carrot's advantage is only in jumping ridiculous heights. Brook and Chopper can also jump to the crow's nest, so I don't see how that argument works here.

I thought she was better equipped to be lookout than anyone else? Isn't that another argument you've been saying?

I already said I wasn't interested in this, I shoud've stopped already but I promise I'll stop now lol. Bye

@AvocadoInTheRain:

None of that answers the question why is Oda putting her in the crow's nest this much?

@Hedron:

She is a mink that jumps high and it is unexceptional to put her in the crow's nest

. .

@AvocadoInTheRain:

I call bullshit. You're acting like my little sister when she was 8 and would taunt me by claiming to know a secret and then refuse to tell me. She consistently never knew shit.

You should be able to explain concisely why Oda had her so prominently in the crow's nest in less words than it took you to write that comment. Or you could at least link to the previous discussion. You doing neither doesn't add anything the the discussion and you should have just kept quiet if that was the case.

This is ridiculous.
I'm saying to you that we already had this discussion.
I already wrote why to me Carrot being in the crow nest means nothing. Go to pp. 1134 ff. if you don't believe me and look at my posts. And look also at Galaxy posts while you're at it. And I'm 100% sure that before that the point was already been discussed more than once.

This Carrot is a lookout thing hasn't been handled like the other SH roles in the crew have been. Look at Jinbe in the same arc.
There hasn't been any storyline or big moment or chapter or even just half a chapter dedicated only to it, and the panels you keep posting are far from those things.
It's not something she's been shown excelling at any more than any of the other characters that in the past holded a pair of binoculars or shouted that there's an enemy somewhere or stayed in the crow's nest.
She is a mink that jumps high and it is unexceptional to put her in the crow's nest when Usopp is in Wano.
Other characters have had this supposed lookout role in the same arc.

These are our points. It's fine to disagree, but acting like pages of discussion never happened and claiming that nobody was ever able to explain your stuff and that all the arguments against it were just that lookout is an irrelevant position it's just bad.

BTW I'm not pointing out these things again because I think you are able to hold a discussion, and I already explained in my previous post why I don't think there's any reason to continue this, I'm just doing this because you called me a liar and after this I'm out of this mess.

@AvocadoInTheRain:

Go on then, what's your explanation for Oda constantly putting Carrot in the crow's nest?

Because all I've heard is just handwaving about how lookout is an irrelevant position. For such an irrelevant position, Oda is definitely going out of his way to have Carrot fill it.

I remember when Carrot immediately jumped into action as lookout when Pedro died, and I called her being the lookout on the spot. The evidence has only stacked more and more in support of that theory over time.

Nope, already did that.

I already explained why to me the lookout thing doesn't work several pages ago, why that particular question is irrelevant and why it's not even accurate. Others did that too.
I don't want to bring back to life this mess just to be selectively ignored again and then see the same points being brought up some pages later like nothing happened. I really don't have any interest in this discussion anymore because every point has already been made clear in the past, sometimes more than once, and since I think those points still stand, I think you will find in the past pages a logical response to any of your present and probably future arguments about Carrot. If there will be a post that brings up something new then maybe I will reply to that but until then noope.

@.access:

You people are very devious keeping that knowledge for yourselves.

We are indeed, we don't want anyone reading the NN poneglyphs.

@AvocadoInTheRain:

Why is Oda continuously, and unerringly, positioning Carrot as the lookout of the Sunny? None of the anti-Carrot crowd has ever been able to explain this away.

I'm pretty sure a few of us weird anti-Carrot folks already solved this baffling lookout dilemma in the past lol

What about his flashback?

Can we close the thread now that Zeus is officially in the crew?

Zeus vs Stronger confirmed.

I love this lol.

@Dranza:

Pretty much everything people said wouldn't happen is happening. There won't be a bounty increase this soon we just had one. ODA: hold my beer. Sanji won't get a raid suit it completely goes against what he stands for. ODA: hold my beer. Luffy won't become an emperor he even said it himself he has much loftier ambitions and who's going to die to make space for him Yonkou to Gokou sounds retarded. ODA: hold my beer.
Jinbei is still not recognized as a strawhat, whyyyyy?. ODA: hold my beer. Sanji will never get an increase higher than Zoro, Oda loves masturbating to Zoro and hates Sanji. ODA: hold my beer. Nami will never get Zeus it's just a throwaway gag exclusive to this arc. ODA: hold my beer. Luffy won't get an increase that exceeds a billion, doesnt matter if he beat commanders in that bounty range its too big of a jump. ODA: suck on deez nuts. Carrot is never going to join ever, what position is she going to fill anyway I mean just because she spends her entire time on the ship on the crow's nest doesn't mean shit you guys need to wake up and stop living in your head canon. GODA: ???

How about hush next time and stop talking like Oda is bound to these imaginary set of predefined rules and he will never break free of his own writing?

Well I personally didn't say any of the things you said wouldn't happen (except Carrot not joining), but that's just a little silly.

Even the ones who predict Carrot will join are doing that based on what they think it's Oda's set of rules, hell her needing to have a position in the crew is one of them. So….
Trying to figure out a pattern is just one of the things that every theory is based on, and saying that there aren't any is just wrong. It is always possible for the patterns to change or to be implemented in ways you'd not expect, but if you don't want people to consider them then you're just wishing for all the theories to be like: "me like dis it sure happen!".

When I read the bounty it felt like Oda was saying "WE ARE GETTING CLOSER TO THE END I SWEAR" lol

There is no Dragon and/or Sabo reaction which is very interesting, it could be a huge hint that they will do something at the Reverie. Either that or they are in a peculiar situation and one of the next chapters will tell us what it is.

@Blissed:

Ch. 870 made it clear why the Vinsmokes helped them. Capone was obviously because of Chiffon, who willingly left to help them make the cake. I don't see how it's rushed, but whatever.

About the vinesmokes, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
About Capone, I was talking about his decision to act as a decoy in chap. 892. He was supposedly doing that so he could have another chance at assassinating BM.

@theackwardstation:

I think the reason Capone was helping the Strawhats at the end of the arc was because of Chiffon's desire to reciprocate the Strawhats' help to Lola. Capone is a great husband haha.
As for Germa, they were doing it out of pride.

They just feel like very rushed and convenient 180° developments

Best NW arc so far that's for sure. There are a few problems but overall it's a lot of fun.

BEST:

-Finally dealing with a Yonko.
That was the biggest source of tension to me. Big Mom and her crew costantly felt like a threat to the SH, much more than Dofla and his crew, and actually more than most of the other villains too.

-Big Mom and her family.
So many interesting designs. Amande and Praline are some of the coolest characters in OP.
And I don't mind all those guys who were introduced but did nothing, since there will be "Big Mom arc part 2" someday.

-Tea Party.
The pivoting event of the arc. The party itself was fine (a few things could've been handled better), but It's so hyping that makes the whole first half of the arc exciting.

-Luffy vs Katakuri.
The most extensive fight in the manga, it was fun and it definitely stands out. Katakuri has an actual personality and Oda was creative with his df. Which are the reasons why this fight was better than Luffy vs Lucci and Luffy vs Dofla.
I think it wouldn't be so hated if it wasn't one of the reasons why BM chasing the Sunny lasted so long.
My personal favourite is still Luffy vs Croc, so simple yet so perfect, but at this point in the story the fights need to be a little more developed, at least the main ones.

-Luffy vs Cracker.
What's the matter with the fights? Usually they are the least interesting part. Totto Land only had 2 full fights but i loved both of them.
Many people didn't like that skipped part of Cracker vs Luffy, but I would actually like to see that happen more often, and not only in regards to the fights.

-A lot of great stuff.
Off the top of my head: Big Mom on the deck and the strawhats fighting her, Nami's giant lightning bolt, Gangster Gastino, Brook stealing the poneglyph, Sanji kicking Luffy, Luffy talking to BM, the giant wave, Luffy clones destroying the cake and Jinbe leaving BM's crew at the party.

-Brook and Jinbe.
They were perfect all the time.

WORST:

-Cake's pay-off.
The cake saved Totto Land but that was never a goal for the main characters.
The cake saved the main characters but did that indirectly. It looked like Sanji's promise to save his crew with the cake was pointing to BM actually eating it. In the end it was useful to remind us how a good person who feeds even bad people Sanji is, but after that long ass chase I expected something else. Maybe it will have some lasting effects later on but it still felt a little underwhelming.
BM being knocked out until the SHts leave the country would've been fine, but honestly the whole situation could've been handled better.

-Chase was too long.
That's the usual problem Oda has, coming up with ideas that should take a few months to resolve, but then he spends more and more time just building up tension and then it ends up taking a whole year.
It's the kind of thing that looks better in the volumes, though, but even there it might make the story look more cluttered than already is.

-Sanji's not-really-a-plan to save Luffy.

-Ship switcheroo

-Capone helping the Strawhats all of sudden. That part never felt very smooth to me.
Same thing with Germa. Maybe Sanji actually gained their respect? But then Judge says those things again to Luffy so I don't know.

-Chopper

Minor complaint: Every BM pirate has a food-themed df. Ok, cool, but a little explaination would have made it look less convenient. Something like the thing with Kaido would have been enough: "BM wanted her crew to have food-themed powers".

@Blissed:

Resolved in the sense that, as you said, Reiju straight up told him that Big Mom doesn't really care (a difference compared to simply forgetting) about him. So right there, that already signals to people to stop worrying about it.

So when I say it's been resolved, I mean to say that this is in no way a plothole, as I've kept seeing people say for months now. No, Big Mom does not to need to be on good terms with them, nor does she need to straight up say that Zeff will not be harmed.

Even if one was insistent that that this is not good enough, off the top of my head there are several solutions Oda could use, the simplest one being that she almost assuredly has bigger targets on her mind, such as Fishman Island for example. Regardless, Oda did not forget anything here.

Forgetting may not have been the right word but it is still a plot hole, it doesn't really matter if Oda tried to make that issue disappear or not…

It doesn't make any sense storywise that the same woman who just sends assassins everywhere even when people do not show up at her parties would forget about Sanji, who even ruined the party.

I agree that it could be fixed though, it is clear that BM pirates will have their hands full from now on, whether because someone attacks them or because they will make a move (more likely). So even a line from BM like: "I didn't forget about that, Sanji! As soon as I'm finished with whatever I'm doing I will take care of that!" (and then Luffy stomps her or something) would be enough to close that plot thread..
Or if BM actually gets germa tecnology, it would make (almost) sense for her to forget about Sanji, and it would even be fitting with what Reiju said.

And before that, even if it ended up becoming a genuine issue later on, she explicitly told Sanji not to worry about the Baratie, to focus on successfully escaping first. This was essentially a response to those thinking that Big Mom had to be defeated or be on good terms with the Straw Hats by the end of the arc in order to guarantee Zeff's safety.

But it didn't become an issue later on, that's the problem.
Reiju saying "think about that later" should mean exactly that, but then a few pages later she says "it doesn't matter anymore bacause BM doesn't care".

Even if it technically isn't a loose end, it still is a major issue that faded into nothing.
"She doesn't care anymore even if after all we've been shown so far she should".

(Anyway, loose ends and a plot holes are not the same thing, that's probably the only reason why this discussion came up).

EDIT:

More importantly, has Big Mom actually ever shown direct interest in Baratie? It was mentioned by Reiju when she said BM wouldn't care about it, but right now I don't remember BM personally talking about it. I know it was the Germa who threatened Sanji to kill Zeff and that has been taken care of, mmm.
That would still be an inconsistency because she should still send an hitman, but it wouldn't be so relevant since it wouldn't have been a factor which was directly addressed in the story. That would be just as bad as Big Mom not sending an hitman to kill Dadan or Kureha or Nojiko. I would be fine with that (if that's the case).

lol, to say Katakuri didn't lose is just misreading words and pictures, and to say Katakuri let Luffy win because he lost his will is just pure speculation.

@.access:

Now that I think about it, how did they found the Swirlyhats in the first place?

They said their objective was Ceasar so maybe they had his vivre card, or maybe they just found them by chance since they were coming back from FI and then noticed they had Ceasar with them.
But yeah, those are just suppositions, it would have been better if it the issue was addressed in the manga (but maybe I don't remember it).

@Maju:

the strawhats are safe outside of the territory because without sea snails underwater to tell the BM pirates where they are, the starwhats are untraceable, much like any ship in open sea…once you lose visual contact, they are gone.

@theackwardstation:

That's a good point, but I'd add that it's difficult to track a ship in the middle of the ocean. They could find Sunny before (after the tsunami) because they had sufficient information about the Strawhat's destiny (Cocoa Island) and their original whereabouts.

Oh, you're right, I didn't think about that!

Great chapter, the next ones will be even better.

Ceasar wasn't in it so he most likely escaped. Still curious about the real reason he's been dragged this far, his role in this arc wasn't essential and could've easily been replaced.

Germa not escaping is very interesting. It's true that Jinbe and the fishmen can technically just escape underwater but it will not happen because of plot reasons. I mean they will probably swim away, but something else must happen that justifies the big deal about their sacrifice. The only thing we can assume is that it will be something big enough to make also the Germa escape, but I cannot think about anything else other than the WG invading Totto Land and that's too unlikely. Maybe it will be something that will be hinted about in Reverie Arc.
Unless something like chapter 900 happens again. Maybe their entire kingdom can really transform into a giant mecha or maybe it just can go underwater. Or maybe they don't escape at all and will be saved only when Luffy fights BM again, Luffy meeting Jinbe in chains like the first time they met in Impel Down could make a great moment. But Luffy said to meet him in Wano and BM would want to kill them anyway so that's unlikely too.

The last scene with Zeff was my favourite but it also reminded me how Oda forgot about Big Mom threating to kill him. Maybe he can somehow come up with a logical reason for that later in the future but I'm not too optimistic about it.

The only other thing I didn't like much in the chapter, is that it looks like BM can't chase the Strawhats outside of her territory. I couldn't come up with any solid reason for that, but then I remembered this:

!
Based on that scheme, exiting a yonko territory could also mean entering into another one. And I can see why BM wouldn't want to trespass another yonko's territory.
If that's the case I wish this was explicitly stated somewhere because it would mean this was a huge factor in the escape (or maybe it was explicitly stated and I don't remember it).

@Blissed:

It looks like nitpicking because, well, I dunno… it is IMO.

You explained why you didn't like it. I get that, I see most of where you and others are coming from in general. I just felt that that particular part of your criticism, that you didn't like that Wadatsumi "did all the work", felt like nitpicking at that point.

As I said, if you were going to back the Sun Pirates as being the answer here, the most logical conclusion IMO would be Wadatsumi being their primary savior, regardless of whether or not there was a ship swap. I didn't say that he's the largest to try and convince you that the solution Oda chose was a good one, but rather to show you that of course he'd put the most work in regardless of how Oda ended up utilizing the Sun Pirates. He obviously has the strength for it, and is big to swallow the entire ship, so unsurprisingly he has the most flexibility in how Oda could've used him. Hence why all the theories involving the Sun Pirates pretty much all involved Wadatsumi doing something notable.

I don't know how to articulate it much better than that lol, it was just really amusing reading that part of your criticism.

Ok I see, you were specifically talking about this then:
"Fishmen would have been fine but Wadatsumi doing all the work it's just weak"

I was thinking about how the scenario of the fishmen doing at least most of the work to save the Sunny could have paid off the expectations of the cliffhanger better than Wada doing all the work by himself, but I wasn't even considering the feasibility of the thing, my bad.

"Fishmen would have been fine since they seem more relevant than Wadatsumi, they're not as lame, and they have a stronger bond with Jinbe [even though I don't know what the hell they could have done practically to explain the cliffhanger] but Wadatsumi doing all the work by himself is just weak"

Related to that, I also noticed this nonsense I wrote in the same post: "I'm not talking about what could make sense in the story or whatnot, I'm talking about the quality of the storytelling".
Obviously the quality of the storytelling is also determined by how much things make sense in the story. But whatever, now you get the mistake I made in that statement.

@Shezar:

But he was not out equation ,we have nothing that showed that he was , when someone throws boiling water on top you the first reaction would be screaming and then finding way to cool off , heck Watatsumi has prior experience of being "cooked" nevermind that he can reach low temperture water with ease ,we see him diving in chapter 900 .

"Wadatsumi doing all the work it's just weak."
Why? He wanted to repay Jinbey for the trouble he caused in fishmen island and he is the only being there that can manhandle ships with relative ease ,good portion side characters in One piece have played much grander rule that is usual in other stories we have mutiple examples of this in One Piece, having focus on Wadatsumi shoudn't be weird or out of place.
But it seems that Wadatsumi is too much side character to actually be acting force in the story .

What makes sense in story should be important to you since it ties with quality of storytelling.
What a person finds to be a good storytelling method is subjective but for me atleast as long author uses what is present in story be either a place or a character or a thing without breaking rules establish before he is doing a good job and if he (author) can do it in way that we can't preditc the outcome even better ,that happened with this chapter atleast for me ,i thought that Wadatsumi would be a key part of strawhats escape but not the how, i was pleasantly suprised and glad that he played bigger role.

I'm glad we got more out of Wadatsumi and i hope in future we get more, he can tag team with Surume i don't know when or how but i hope it happens.

I didn't say that he's too much a side character to be an active force in the story, just that he doesn't work well as the main solution to this particular cliffhanger.
A side character of the likes of Wadatsumi resolving the super hyping cliffhanger of chapter 900 by redeeming himself because of reason and by pulling off this horribly fuzzy and convulted switch plan and sacrificing a ship we should care about but we actually don't is not good writing, in this or in any other story.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but if you think that good or bad writing is subjective then there's no point in discussing this.

@Blissed:

It seems like it's just nitpicking at that point to criticize Wadatsumi, the largest out of all of them, for being the one who "did all the work". Of course he'd be the most effective at pulling the Sunny down. It's not even necessarily accurate if you wanna be technical about it, since Aladine ordered him to do it anyways.

You're right, so tecnically he didn't do all that by himself.
But he's still the one who practically saved the Sunny and the reason why Aladdin's plan existed to begin with. Even if Wadatsumi technically didn't do all the work, Aladdin is still not the main focus. That's the reason why nobody reading the chapter was never ever under the impression that Aladdin was the real answer to the cliffhanger. I can't believe that reading the chapter you were like: "Oh so that was it! It was Aladdin all along!"
That's what matters, again, we are talking about the writing.

But we can say that Aladdin was as involved as Wada if you prefer, that doesn't change a thing about how underwhelming and rushed the solution was.
Even if it was Aladdin the one to somehow save the Sunny there still should've been a really clever idea or at least an emotional moment that should've been directly involved with the question: "how did the Sunny survive the blast?".
"Switch and put into mouth" is not a very good answer, it's not very good writing. "Put into mouth" can work but must be paired with something better than "Switch".

And who cares if the reason why Wadatsumi was the one to do it is bacause he's the largest? That doesn't make the solution any better.

This probably looks like nitpicking because you guys are making me over elaborate something that should be very simple and very obvious:

Wadatsumi [and Aladdin yelling at him what he has to do, or even Aladdin doing half of the work if you like, whatever] as the answer to last panel of chapter 900, is weak.

@Shezar:

Why? Is it because it was Watatsumi was doing the action?

Fishmen and Watatsumi should be main reason for strawhats to escape since they can influence the battleground better than anyone else there .

Yes, because it was him doing the action:

"seemingly ruling out of the equation a side character like Wadatsumi and then bringing him up to resolve it isn't certainly the most pleasing storytelling device, to say the least. Especially considering this looked a little more substantial than the usual weekly cliffhanger.
It's totally reasonable to be disappointed by it."

I'm not talking about what could make sense in the story or whatnot, I'm talking about the quality of the storytelling.

Fishmen would have been fine (they still should've done something better than the switcheroo though) but Wadatsumi doing all the work it's just weak.

Actually, tecnically the fishmen were part of the resolution since they still changed the currents, but they weren't the answer to the main question: "how did the Sunny survive/avoid that blast?"

@Jabra:

I can't picture Zeus just living in Nami's Clima Tact though, only popping out when she has major fight.

Wow, like a pokémon.
It's awkward but I love it.

I agree, Wadatsumi eating the Sunny wouldn't have been that bad if there was a better explaination for the wrecked ship and the flag.
Actually I think it could have been predicted even considering a well written solution, as long as it wasn't the MAIN reason why the Strawhats got out of that situation.

@Blissed:

Yea, no one predicted the switch, but like I said, there were people who figured it'd be Wadatsumi who'd do something here, and some even predicted he'd swallow them. He obviously has the size for it, so in hindsight it realistically could've only been him to begin with if you were going to predict the Sun Pirates being the ones to save the day to begin with.

Props to whoever did that then, that's not a scenario you can predict unless you don't consider how good or bad it will look, but it ended up being the right way of looking at things. Most people myself included were focusing too much on how the resolution could stand up to the expectations 900 had set up.

His X.X eyes, don't know why that's an issue, dude was literally talking in that same panel, so it's not as if he was knocked out.

I thought the x x eyes and the panel of him escaping were enough to consider him out of the picture and I was wrong, but it still looks a bit off when I think about it.

Oh ok, I was under the impression that you and Kage were trying to make it look like this was some sort of good writing but I was wrong.
I agree that the Sun Pirates doing something was predictable (I didn't even consider it btw lol), though Wadatsumi coming back after the x x eyes and doing that dumb switch in particular wasn't and in fact nobody did predict that (him doing all the work was dumb, but in the end it turned out to be dumb for real), but like I said it being predictable or not doesn't make any difference anyway.

Well I did make a long post explaining how the lack of hints is not even remotely the problem here.
But c'mon, seemingly ruling out of the equation a side character like Wadatsumi and then bringing him up to resolve it isn't certainly the most pleasing storytelling device, to say the least. Especially considering this looked a little more substantial than the usual weekly cliffhanger.
It's totally reasonable to be disappointed by it.

@Shezar:

And Oven would attack anyway because he would see Watasumi put ship its mouth, with switch atleast would give them some time to escape the scene ,unfortunately for them(fishmen) they gain only few seconds or a minute at most.

@Kaido:

Replacing the ship would still be a better idea than just taking it away even if it hadn't been done at the last second. So long as the Big Mom Pirates continue to see a ship there they'll be more instinctively likely to open fire on it even if the ship is slightly different, whereas they'd immediately notice the complete absence of a ship.

If you put it that way, then I can agree.
It would still be a pretty wacky plan though, I mean the BM pirates have this ship swapping happening in front of their eyes, it's not like they couldn't see Wadatsumi (and they actually saw him). Weirdest distraction plan ever.
It can make sense but I still can't see this as good writing choice, it's way too cheap. There's no way all of this didn't happen just for the sake of the cliffhanger.

@KageKageKing:

So if last chapter didn't ended with a ship in flames then it would be okay?

Probably yes.
It looks like Oda came up with the coolest idea to make Big Mom song more creepy, but then he didn't put much thought on the aftermath.

@Blissed:

Didn't it inadvertently leave them in a position where the Sun Pirates could change the currents and help the Sunny escape without it being affected?

Oh yeah you're right. But the switch doesn't make sense anyway, Wadatsumi could just have put the Sunny in his mouth

@Kaido:

The timing would have been nonsensical if Wadatsumi and co. were in a position where it would have been impossible to reach the Sunny in that span, but that was never indicated. Oda could have had them do the swap earlier without much issue, but that wouldn't have the same amount of dramatic effect.

It's not that.
For the BM pirates to mistake the Sunny for another ship, it means that Wadatsumi should've waited for the Chanter to fire (which is not even indicated in the chapter) and in the milliseconds between the cannonballs being fired and the cannonballs hitting the ship he should've made the switch. It defies even shonen logic to me, it's more impressive than Katakuri's future sight.
And more importantly, there's no way that could ever be a plan.

The worst part is: that impossible feat succeeded but then they noticed the swap anyway. So that asspull wasn't even useful to the plot but it was just cheap suspance.

@Shezar:

That would serve what purpose? They still be range of enemy ships to attack quite easily,wouldn't solve anything.

Hidding the target from enemy with switch makes more sense since it can actualy buy time to escape.
What really happened makes sense, it didn't simply work as planned but atleast gave them more distance from BMP and now they can change the current without afecting the Sunny.

Ok, the current takes the Sunny out of enemy range then.
Honestly that was the first idea that came into mind and the Wadatsumi switch looks more broken than that. Read what Razh wrote about the timing one or two pages ago, it doesn't make any logical sense.

@KageKageKing:

Okay, here we go.

Wadatsumi is big enough to fill the Sunny on his mouth. I think we can all agree on that. And the switch is no different from what Law pulled in Dressrosa. But apparently all this is BAD because there was no build-up or any sign of they planning that last chapter.

Why is this considered bad quality writting? I mean, I didn't liked the chapter, but the hate is merely subjective.

Well the perception of a story is never completely objective but I think It's safe to say this could have been handled a little better.
It's not about the lack of hints.
It's about how the follow up to an exciting cliffhanger must be exciting too for it to not be disappointing. That's the main simple difference between bad and decent cliffhangers. And then there are also very good ones which have hints and stuff.

The one with the big wave was perfect for me: a giant santient wave is about to hit the Sunny–--> the new nakama shows that he is an amazing helmsman and he rides the wave.
The resolution pays back because is equally powerful. And the cliffhanger it's not just there to build up the hype for the next chapter but becomes relevant to the story too, as we are introduced to Jinbe's role in the crew.
The fact that the characters managed to overcome the situation thanks to their own skills (and also not just avoid it but overcome it) made it even better. And Jinbe being previously hinted as an helmsman was good too because it made the resolution fit better in the story, but the hint wasn't what made the whole thing work (I didn't even remember that until someone mentioned it).

Another example of this kind of cliffhanger which had a very decent resolution was the end of Luffy vs Croco-boy round 1: has Luffy really been defeated and stabbed in the chest by that big hook? How does he get out of that situation?----> He really is defeated and stabbed, and the best thing is that he's somehow able to touch Crocodile finally and we don't understand how. And how does he get out of there? All the other good characters are somewhere else and he's even been thrown into a sand pit now: that mysterious villain who later will become a nakama shows up again and shows interest in the D. in Luffy's name, which is also mentioned for the first time ever if I remember correctly.
A powerful situation and an equally powerful resolution.
It's not like we found out that Luffy's only been stabbed in the arm, or that it was just a Mr.3 wax Luffy or some weird Bentham power, and then the giant smiling crab comes out of the sand pit and puts Luffy in his mouth.

Chapter 900 ended up being like the beheaded Doflamingo string clone cliffhanger. Obviously in that case it was silly to assume that he actually lost his head but a string clone was the lamest idea ever, and it didn't even serve any purpose in the story that couldn't have been handled through less clumsy means.
The Law switch was almost as bad but at least it had a purpose later.

Also, the expectations were high for this cliffhanger because:

• All that Big Mom singing was hyping that last page so much and it looked like Oda had a very good idea to resolve the situation
• It was chapter 900, the solution could have had decent implications in the story.
• The break

And like I said before Jinbe staying back is a powerful moment that fills the expectations for this chapter and the Sun Pirates changing the sea currents is a smart idea that fits perfectly, we knew that fishmen were able to do that since Arlong Park I think, and still nobody even mentioned that in any part of the theories.
So why the heck couldn't Oda have used the sea currents change to explain the last page of 900? Something like "when it was about to get hit by the Chanter, the Sun Pirates created a current that made the Sunny slide away and made an enemy ship slide in where the Sunny was so that it was hit instead".

The switcheroo doesn't destroy the chapter for me but it's a slip, anything would have worked better than that which is lame and also sloppy (the timing, and also the way it was revealed to be Fisher Tiger's ship to make us care is ridiculously bad).

@theackwardstation:

Do you think Oda's execution in chapter 900 was bad? Or was it rewarding for you as a reader?

The execution of 900 was very enjoyable but wasn't rewarding to me as a reader, because it wasn't rewarding to the Strawhats as the main characters of the story.

BM eating the cake didn't look like helped the strawhats in any way. Had it happened in the same chapter as Sanji and Bage saving Sunny team, it would have looked so.
BM eating the cake did save Totto Land. But saving Totto Land wasn't clearly shown to be the objective of the main characters. There wasn't a proper set up for this to be rewarding.

The act of Big Mom eating the cake, though useful to the plot, wasn't convincingly expressed to be so.

Note how the "resolution of the cake" being rewarding or not doesn't necessarily have anything to do with chapter 900.

@Chrior:

You guys are forgetting things really fast. Chopper was about to kill himself by trying to throw Prometheus and Big Mom into the ocean (uselessly, of course) and the Sunny and the SHs were about to be fried when the cake was brought by Bege and saved them and all of Totto Land. So yeah, the cake was essential, although I also find it annoying that Big Mom did not stay KO'd for the rest of the arc.

Mmm, I actually forgot about that. But I don't know, all those chapters seemed to be building up to something more than just situational, something more permanent. And it seemed like the cake would've saved the Strawhats when BM would've actually eaten it.
If I remember correctly, before eating the cake BM would have "chased Luffy till the ends of the New World" or something like that. And here we are now and after she ate it she is still chasing them.
Wouldn't it have been better if she ate it in the same chapter as the Strawhats were actually saved by it, and also like you said if she was knocked out from it (and also maybe if it was Sanji to give her the cake and not Bage), all in that same chapter? That for example would've made the whole Sanji saving his nakamas thing way way more clear and effective in my opinion.

And if it wasn't for Sanji's amazingness as a cook, the cake would not have stopped Mama's rampage and she would have destroyed the whole country. Almost every single chapter since the cake started to be baked we were hammered by Chiffon, Pudding and the chefs on how awesome Sanji was and how it would have been absolutely impossible to make that cake in such a short time and with such quality.

I think I agree on everything you said, the cake as a matter of fact was useful, but I feel like there are some problems with the execution. The cake resolution should've looked more essential and rewarding. Example: compare the citizens of Totto Land needed to be saved from rampaging BM to the citizens of Dressrosa needed to be saved from the birdcage.

Anyway it's probably true that when struggling to survive in Yonko territory, the incredibile feat of baking a cake is something that will to look underwhelming no matter what. But this should've been a good reason to make Sanji's effort look more valuable.
Especially considering that throughout the Year of Zoro Zoro will probably defeat the Shogun of Wano and god knows what else.

@BattleFranky69:

Why is Big Mom wide awake now, fat again, and still chasing them? What was the point of that cake if she's not incapacitated?

Sloppy writing indeed, unless something happens in the next chapters.
From what I understand the point of the cake was either to:

-Stop rampaging BM from chasing the Strawhats. Which only resulted in regular BM chasing the Strawhats. Althought they gained distance but it still doesn't justify all those chapters waiting for her to eat the cake.

or to

-Save Tottoland and show how a good guy Sanji is. Which is ok but should've been made more clear and possibly rewarding.

@Robby:

Jinbei is from like 8 arcs ago.

Oh I see, I misinterpreted. The joke was about how after this chapter not even Jinbe joined "after" this arc.

@Robby:

No one from the last arc is joining, same way no one from the equally long Dresserossa is joining.

Hey, you forgot Ji-

What a cheap resolution, strange considering Oda nailed lesser cliffhangers this same arc. This could've been the perfect ending for the arc but nope, more running away from Big Mom.
Oh well, at least the fishmen messing with the currents and Jinbe staying behind make up for that missed opportunity and manage to work very well in the big picture. These are the kind of clever ideas we expected after that big set up from last chapter.
Also good that Vito is aknowledging that Germa is in the shit. Makes me think that Oda actually has a logic resolution planned for them.
Big Mom already on the chase is a bit underwhelming, and I expected Perospero to face the consequences of his lie, it's sad to see plot threads fade into nothing.

@Razh:

Forgot there were 2 flags.

Oh well, then no biggie.

The cliffhanger would have been even less convincing if I'd remembered that 2 weeks ago.

Oh no I forgot that too, I was just thinking how cool it'd be if Jinbe appears in Wano with the flag

@BattleFranky69:

That's pretty much my exact sentiment.

Mine too, and I sincerely hope that after all the stuff that has been said this doesn't look like an "i like her/I hate her" discussion lol

@AvocadoInTheRain:

Because the women constantly change their outfits. Their clothes don't matter when discussing their design if they don't stay consistent. Franky's spido and open shirt are relevant to his design, Robin's cowboy hat and armband aren't

The clothes a character wears in his first appearance are a huge part of the way an artist has conceived them. And they are usually an indication of the effort put into their creation.
This is not always true for all cartoonists, but Oda is probably the most glaring example I can think of.

Starting clothes are also part of the narrative. When an important character is introduced, elaborated / particular / personal / unique / unusual clothes are used in order to make them stand out, so the readers can immediatly distinguish them from less important characters. This happens because to make a main cast character memorable, to imprint his/her looks in the mind of readers, are main goals for a shonen manga (especially if it runs a merchandising empire).
It was't until Water 7 that Oda started messing with Robin's cowgirl looks: by that time the readers already aknowledged her as part of the main cast.

And even then Oda was pretty consistent with her style. He focused more on the grim features in Water 7 and Thriller Bark, and then returned to the cowgirl looks in Sabaody.
And all those clothes Nami and Robin wore AFTER they became popular characters, were more elaborated, thought out, and as a result memorable, than Carrot's.
Probably I could've put any of Robin or Nami designs from all the main arcs close to that Carrot image and I'd still have made my point (except maybe from Dressrosa Robin, that dress was pretty basic, and I'm probably forgetting something else but I don't want someone to point out the two weak ass clothes I forgot just to ignore the rest of my post).

@.access:

It's like the last 2 days of discussion never happened.

16 chars of I agree.

@.access:

You should do those montages with Nami too. Show him how unique she was back then. Show him good!

I write things hoping other people read them:

Context? lol.
You're not acknowledging about 20 years of evolution in Oda's character design.
Nami and Robin were unique when they were introduced, Carrot is not.
Nami is still more unique than Carrot, the red hair, the tattoo, the log pose and the eccentric dresses she wears now are enough to distinguish her from other human females. Carrot has not the same amount of unique/personal features to distinguish her from the other minks.
Every personal feature Carrot has is related to the fact that she is a rabbit mink, the same way every personal feature other minks have are related to what kind of animal they are.
Except for Pedro, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, the three Musketeers, and even the freaking goat doctor who integrate other features in their design.

Compare her to the other East Blue girls, or to other East Blue characters in general, he will be left with no defenses after that.

I thought we were talking about nakama and main characters's design

@AvocadoInTheRain:

Clearly, Carrot can't compete against these amazing designs…

Context? lol.
You're not acknowledging about 20 years of evolution in Oda's character design.
Nami and Robin were unique when they were introduced, Carrot is not.
Nami is still more unique than Carrot, the red hair, the tattoo, the log pose and the eccentric dresses she wears now are enough to distinguish her from other human females. Carrot has not the same amount of unique/personal features to distinguish her from the other minks.
Every personal feature Carrot has is related to the fact that she is a rabbit mink, the same way every personal feature other minks have are related to what kind of animal they are.
Except for Pedro, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, the three Musketeers, and even the freaking goat doctor who integrate other features in their design.

Also I like how you chose the sloppiest anime frame of Robin lol. Why don't you compare the dress she had in her first appearance to the one Carrot had in hers?

First appearance post ts does that too:

@keekoishere:

I honestly would say if you want the Sunny to have survived, that panel can't be real/can't be Sunny because that ship is gone.

Like the chunk of Luffy's abdomen was gone?

Whether that's the Sunny or not, it is not possibile to state the amount of damage the ship in those panels has taken. Expecially considering what manga this is, the only thing we can assume is that it is enough to make it sink.
I'd also say that's probably an intentional choice of the author, to keep us questioning "is that the Sunny or not?". If that ship was clearly shown to be destroyed I don't think there would be this many pages of discussion about it.

@RamistaR:

My biggest issue with the hit is that Jinbe, Sanji and even Chopper should have been able to block any projectile

Yeah that's a problem. I mean it is a different situation than the one with the Swirlyhats after Dressrosa, as they are now surrounded by BM's fleet and are being attacked by Smoothie & Daifuku.
But Oda would still have / have had to make that difference clear and more explicit somehow.

@keekoishere:

Sunny getting destroyed is too unreal for me

For me too, that's not even an option. "Hit but not destroyed" is what I'm suggesting.
The damage wouldn't even have to be as bad as most people expect in my opinion.

I'm not suggesting utter defeat for the Big Mom pirates, I'm just suggesting something other than an utter defeat for the Strawhats hah. What would be the point of that at this point of the story? Yonkou's are hyped enough as they are.

It is needed in this point of the story to keep us hyped about the BM pirates because Luffy is supposedly going to fight them after supposedly defeating a yonko already. Leaving Tottoland unscathed is a defeat for BM, and defeating her twice would be weird.
It wouldn't be an utter defeat for the Strawhats either, as I mentioned they still achieved something (took Sanji back, stole a copy of poneglyph, caused mayhem in Tottoland).

@keekoishere:

…

1)I agree, that ship not being the Sunny is possible.

2)This is also possibile.

3)I don't understand how BM getting skinnier would be an hint (I'm probably missing something here)

4)You're right that's an intentional analogy. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's an indication of how things will go.

5)Jinbe is the super helmsman so in a situation like that he's definitely needed at the helm, Nami is giving directions as usual, Chopper and Brook are definitely panicking, Luffy can barely move. Sanji and Carrot are not shown, they could be trying to defend the ship for what we know.
But I agree this could have more than one interpretation:
"We're about to get hit!"
"A giant enemy ship appeared in front of us!"
"Something unexpected happened!"

So I would say that this panel doesn't really give us any hints on what did or didn't happen.

Overall I would say that there is no big counter argument to your theory. Maybe the flag.
But anyway I don't know how fitting it would be.

Why did Oda set up this big cliffhanger throughout an entire chapter? Why is it so fitting in the overall story?
And
How does that resolution stand up to it (is it satisfying enough)? How well does it fit in the general narrative of the arc (and overall story)?
You're suggesting a crushing defeat for the BM pirates, but Luffy will have to crush them sometimes later in the story too (if Oda's telling us the truth and I'm 90% sure he is).

I personally think that the Sunny being hit (but obviously not destroyed) would be more fitting as a follow up to this chapter, both emotionally, and to make things feel even between Luffy and BM, and it also wouldn't lower too much the expectations for a yonko crew.
But I'm also ok with the Sunny not been hit, if that's the case Oda will certainly find a way to make that satisfying, and fitting to the story. I'm sure there's a way to do that, possibly many ways, I just can't come up with any.

That BM is in a frenzy tough? I don't know how that resolution would stand up to this huge cliffhanger, It'd be too underwhelming. BM is so creepy and intimidating in this chapter, all of this is supposed to make us aware of the power of a yonko, and we know this power is real because she's one of the 4 strongest characters in OP, she's not an early story puffed up villain. To make her look powerful is not something which is only useful, but also needed.
And in the next chap, she hits her own ships AND misses the Sunny? That would defeat the one and only purpose of this chapter. I could be ok with that if it was just a regular ending page cliffhanger, but here the whole chapter is about that.
So how is the SHats barely escaping alive any better? Because that is enough for OP to look like a defeat. Or at least a power-wise-defeat, because we know that Luffy still achieved other things.

So I can agree on the Sunny not being hit, it's 50/50. Let's say 40/60 because of the flag.
On the second part of the theory however I'm not too convinced. Maybe if the result of her being in a frenzy were bigger, like obliterating everyone in Tottoland AND the Straw Hats, that would just make her look like a monster even more. But I consider that more unlikely than the Sunny just being hit.
Even if it was hit by a few cannonballs, that would still be Oda's brand of cannonballs.

Btw I realized that I can't vote in the poll after I said I would. I'm dumb lol.

My pals at the Charlotte Flampe Official Fan Club will be disappointed by all these haters

@BattleFranky69:

Actually Viola looked a bit too similar to Robin so that did cause some concern, though I didn't see that being an issue between Nami and Rebecca.

Oh yeah Viola had a few panels in which I actually mistook her for Robin. But aside from those 3-4 panels it didn't bother me, it was't something that I thought about at all when reading Dressrosa.

I hear many people say it but Shirahoshi didn't bother me either, the sad eyebrows and her being a giant marmaid were enough for me I guess

@RamistaR:

Basically the question is :
Do you actually think "shit an other Nami clone" when you read a new chapter?

For me that only happened with Rebecca so far. It was way too blatant and I coudn't avoid thinking that since she first appeared.
Although the fact that she was one of the main characters of the arc probably made it worse.

Or was the question in relation to the next nakama? In that case I would probably be bothered if the next nakama were a Nami clone, but so far it never happened that a clone was clearly hinted at being one so I don't know.