The argument and logic is the exact same so you can just mirror your analysis. It makes perfect sense if we just imagine things to make it fit... sorry I mean if we look at the subtext.

As for me I just think Oda heavily dropped the ball with her. Her becoming king is just pulled out of nowhere for a character that spend the entire last 4 years doing absolutely nothing. I've never been on the boat about her joining but even I'm just massively frustrated with Oda not even giving her like a panel where she evacuates people from flames or really anything to make her succession as king of Zou connect.
Her defiant stare against Perosperos to end just in her lying on the floor the entire raid feels like a complete letdown when you think about how other characters like Conis/Aisha, the multitude of Gladiators, Chimney, etc etc have been treated. It strikes me like Oda just forgot about her.
Pedro's will right now just seems like a thing Oda decided to delay on clarifying and it's possibly going to be dragged into the finale which just seems kinda stupid to me. But we'll see.

In my mind stuff like that should have just been maybe answered by now if we're considering the guy wants to finish in 3 years.

As for stowaway memes I get why people are hoping for that from a fan perspective but from an actual writing perspective that would be the biggest flub for wants to end in 3 years man. Cause you're not going to convince me that's a joining that's worthy of a strawhat and wouldn't force Oda to actually put some work into her in the future.

@Kishido said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World):

Can we make a separate Yamato will rejoin thread please?

No keep it contained in here.
Like Perona, Monet, Hancock, Shirahoshi, Barto, etc etc etc didn't need their own threads.
Frankly just deal with it. Demanding this just sets a different awful precedent.

Well to be fair it's JP twitter which is not the same as "fans" just wanna clarify. But really I'm curious about anything about it.
To me it's definitely the thing that has soured me the most on this chapter as the longer I sit on it the more it feels not very One Piece and Oda just went for the poetry of mirroring the Oden bit and all the editors were on vacation not present to tell him about the implications of it.(I'm being facetious about that but if there was any convo about this I'm really curious if someone even brought it up about how it reads.)

There is a lot of things that I feel I'd like to say I don't believe this is where Oda is leaving it but man just Wano kinda for now settled on well nah nothing coming out of this everyone that argued for the result of bad writing was actually right all along.

Like I definitely didn't think Carrot would just lie on the ground almost the entire raid but that's just where Oda actually left it.

I hope Oda picks up most of these loose ends up.

I think it's less that we don't get the double entendre of the phrase, it just more like is that actually worth it when you consider how it could be read, like Oda trying to be cute here with it to me isn't really worth the having the less generous reading being there to receive attention in an arc where we didn't ever really dive or reflect on what made it all happen.

To add on it's just bad treatment regardless even for a side character. Her one moment shining was scratching perosperos face with Wanda before just staying on the ground... I feel at large most side characters that aren't generally just meant to be background ornaments receive better treatment than that and as people said her becoming king of zou feels like out of nowhere for a reason. Not arguing that she joins really but if that was the plan from the start there should have been scenes building it up, instead of well nothing.

As for general crewmate things I still believe that we're getting another one but it might feel lackluster if they just join right at the end who knows. I still do think mirroring blackbeard's crew just feels nice on a meta narrative level. But it's possible Oda throws 1 of the titanic captains against a grandfleet team up or an ally like Law. In general Oda might not opt for 1 to 1 matchups even if I think a lot of fans myself included would want that for the finale.

At this point I think the only thing that saves it all is when the "good" Tenryuubito Mjosgard visits Wano in the end and celebrates national burn Kurozumi day.

Yes bad jokes rn is how I'm coping with this.

@King-Cannon said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Law, Kid and the other supernovas:

@Hakase Kid reminds me of how Law was in Punk Hazard. We didn't know much about him back then and no one liked him taking away Smoker's spotlight, but the fleshing out could only happen at Dressrosa because Doflamingo was an essential part of his backstory.

Oda will likely do the same with Kid, especially since he didn't really have any personal Wano connection to warrant a flashback or anything of the sort. Robin had to wait three arcs to have her story revealed, because it needed Aokiji and CP9 to be introduced first.

It's definitely fair to hope that Kid gets more in the future but I don't think stealing smokers spotlight is all that comparable to being part of a 10 year build up finale dropping out of nowhere and just posing in as the cool guy.

Oda being like hey look how cool this guy is!!!! During the raid made the exit of Big Mom being caused by this nothing character not any less disappointing.
Like I've seen some people still holding out on Elbaf maybe mending some of that but that feels like massive copium to me.

Been some days but I'm still deflated on the chapter and holding onto the weird hope that next chapter just makes me go all is fine.

Like Wano ending like this .... just the dread on how the big "finale" will turn out ... it's looking grim.
I guess the best I can hope for is dressrosa 2.0 where actually stuff connects even if it's overstuffed.

Not sure if this is the best place but this guy just deserves more views not about if what he concludes is going to turn right but about how he argues for it/frames it/structures it logically. Many here could learn from it.
Like there is just such a clean self awareness about what he assumes/what he bases it on, etc.

If this is legit what happened, it feels like an overreaction on both sides, in my opinion, since it's just about how you play a video game.

Well pretty sure that's what happened since all his post are completely invisible to me now.
Also dunno about overreaction on my side cause I truly see no use in being on this forum if that's how things go in disagreements especially like this. Like I'm factually going to be able to read more with no account lurking. So I'd rather cut off AP this way and be happier never interacting again.

But also again this argument to begin with is very odd to me cause I think I've been very good faith and my endgoal in all of this always has only been to make new players not worry about what they will play on with I think perfectly good reason. Like I'm not talking out of my ass, it's based on my own experience having extensively used both, it's based on me having talked to people in different content communities and heard about their views. And it's not like you can't easily fact check yourself people like AngelusDemonus, MrHappy or other people doing whatever content you might be interested in aren't inaccessible.

So I'm just here truly baffled how we land on this totally reality divorced view where Greg pretends humans don't have preferences and are all blank slate machines that will optimally play just based on using the optimal device, which I'm just beyond baffled how you can have a view like that. That's just not how people work. I already said it earlier but a person that has only ever played on controller is not overcoming play habit brainwiring of that to even tap into whatever theoretical benefit there is on pressing your button keyboard milliseconds faster and additional again it doesn't matter in the context of the design of the game cause no single challenge exist where these differences are pressed.

So frankly I'm just kinda pissed that somehow this escalated into this dickhead tirade of there is no discussion and frankly Greg in this from my pov has just been entirely bad faith and these views are just so insanely divorced from actual reality and are also easily checked by just talking to actual people playing the game. Additionally I don't even get to what end Greg wants to insist on this silliness. Like is he trying to protect people from me "deceiving" them on trying to pick up the game on controller? It makes not fucking sense to paint this picture to me where FF14 kbm only is the top experience.

I'm kinda just here to wait on getting my account deleted cause again if this is the interaction I get from I think being pretty reasonable from someone that's a regular and who at least on the One Piece side has actual good insight to share with the current ignore system makes it just useless to be here.

If Greg ever sees this you won. Congrats.

@Johnny-B-Decent said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

Now I feel bad for starting this whole debate.

Not your fault at all. And also disregarding the drama I hope at least the exchanges here if anyone finds them relevant when considering starting the game give people at least enough pause to not blindly believe any one poster. My experience with the 14 community been very friendly and if you really have somehow big doubts you can always go to respective discords and get more opinions/information.

Greg being so childish/stubborn enough to put me on ignore for my I think reasonably argued stances really makes me question if there is even a point on being on this forum anymore since that's the level you can expect of good faith engagement from regulars.
So maybe I'll leave this as another last post on from another person on the pile more qualified to give you an opinion on it all.

Mr happy raids on KBM too. Peace out APforums.

If an admin sees this I'd be happy to have my account be deleted, cause I see no point in being part of a forum community this small when the ignore also just makes people invisible to others, especially when it's a petty reaction like this. And while I think this stance Greg is trying to dig his heels in on is frankly silly and he wouldn't get a different reaction than mine talking to any other world prog raider. It does suck now having to deal with all his One Piece related post being invisible which I respect his insight on that topic certainly much more than on this one. Just to give more context on if that's the reaction I can expect engaging in good faith with like here there is truly no point in having an account cause lurking without account will give me more access to actually read what's going on.

@sgamer82 said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

@Hakase
I'm inclined to agree. the way I've always looked at it is "using the best build in the game doesn't mean a whole lot if you're not personally good with it or don't personally enjoy it"

Basically yeah, although my asterisk would be that there are probably games where one input is potentially so superior where this might matter, although the only thing that would come to my mind is like a controller strategy game like the N64 version of starcraft 1... but FF14 just isn't part of those games. The entire design of the game really doesn't force it in that way.

@Greg said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

"For FF14 there is no optimal or suboptimal to the input method as it contextually matters to the game."

A false statement based on subjectivity rather than the actual fact that more actions must be performed on controller to achieve the same result. In terms of clearance, if a player is skilled/fast enough, the same result of victory, if victory is what is sought, may be achieved.

It's based on people that I've talked to that do world prog. And yes subjectivity plays into it cause that's the whole fucking point. I'm accounting for the subjective experience of people trying to go into this game and flatout telling with pretty good backing that it won't matter on what input method they choose.

Your whole insisting on the optimal as if people were machines and they should make the only objective choice disregarding their own preference is beyond silly dude. Subjectivity matters for how you will enjoy the game is the entire fucking point Subjectivity matters for how comfortable you will play. No amount of you preaching this theoretical gain is gonna make people like Hako be actually faster in reality playing on kbm. People aren't blank slates that work like machines(and I can't believe this has to be stated), your personal subjective comfort for whatever input method you like will trump whatever theoretical gain there could be in reality.
And no challenge in this game is hard enough to pressure you into any certain input method, because the design of the game 100% supports both.

God I really can't believe what you're trying to argue here. I hope you're just like having a internet argument moment or something but it's really silly.

Tbf though I'm stupid too for continuing this given the info is now all open and I think people know enough now to make an informed choice by themselves.

It's all cool, go be dismissive and declaring it a strawman. All I cared about is being clear to new players as was initially the point that it doesn't matter.
For FF14 there is no optimal or suboptimal to the input method as it contextually matters to the game.
I've made my case to anyone potentially interested in this game about not fussing too much on what is "optimal" and I demonstrated why it doesn't matter. Game is designed for both and the experience will be enjoyable on the input method you personally prefer. Nothing in this game will put a meaningful hurdle behind that choice.

But if people wanna take your and Robby's word over that it's their choice. I ain't interested it continuing this anymore.

And also your whole there is no discussion shtick is frankly silly especially as you proclaim it on a statement that appears so divorced from actual reality. Cause you're speaking about theoretical gains of milliseconds and presenting it as "quantifiable" when this won't even be remotely reflected in most people's experience.

People simply aren't machines that will perform optimally just by making the optimal choice.
That's why your preference and own subjective comfort level with whatever input method you choose matters more than the theoretical gain. You're not going to overcome years of brain wiring playing on a controller and then just have those gains you try to argue for choosing kbm.

Kinda relevant to how silly this debate is on optimal experience. Hate these type of arguments but I'm hard stancing play on what feels comfortable. Take it from the mass of people that have done whatever content you might ever want to do.

Or don't start playing it cause some person in here put this silly idea in your mind that this game is a suboptimal experience if not on input method xyz, disregarding any notion of what your personal history as a person with games is because pressing a button in theory 100 ms faster is like such a big deal in a game with 2.5 sec gcd cadence.... and the notion that your personal comfort level with xyz input method might make you lose whatever theoretical gains there could be might make you lose out on those gain is somehow too foreign.

Also this clicker is likely a better player than anyone in here, at least def better than me.
Which matters in the sense of demonstrating how little this whole discussion actually matters fuck all when it comes to doing the content. Clickers can play at the highest level in ff14 (yes even world first prog) and I wouldn't say that would work for wow cause that game is actually not designed to work for anything but kbm.

Just to show I wasn't joking about some world first proggers being clickers.

@Greg said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

It's not nonsense when it's a fact. It works on a controller. It has more buttons than can easily be accessed on controller as compared to a keyboard.

Playing on a keyboard is slower than playing on a keyboard because it requires more button presses. That's not subjective or experience-derived.

There's no discussion there.

No the nonsense is you saying it was designed to work on controller when factually that just makes no sense when you look at the history of 11 and 14.
They made those games with console/controller first in mind, you can't get more designed for controller when their intention from the get go was for it to be a console game. In my opinion there is no discussion here on that.

As for your second comment it's a meaningless statement because for it to mean something it has to exist in the context of it mattering. And when it doesn't matter at the top end of raiding from people that are going for world first kills, I'm sorry to say but anyone that then sells to potential new players that the optimal experience is so and so and somehow can't look beyond their own preference comes off as someone with a massive blindspot for how people actually experience games.

No amount of you press this button 100 milliseconds faster hence this MUST BE THE BEST way to play trumps the actual reality of a person just playing much more smoothly and competently on whatever device they are comfortable on and couple that with it literally not mattering for the highest difficulty of content as told by the people that have actually engaged with that.

Like sorry but selling this is a kbm experience when anyone with any substantial experience with both inputs and has done all the content where it could matter just seems immensely misguided. Someone that is a lifelong console player will likely be happier playing on controller and someone that grew up on PC games will likely be happy to play kbm and there is cases like me that have been primarily PC players but have found to enjoy the game more on controller cause it's subconsciously just a more relaxed experience more divorced from my working experience being on kbm all day. Reality shows that comforts trumps whatever theoretical advantage there is for this game again if it mattered, all world first raiders would enforce KBM only raid groups and that doesn't happen because it fucking doesn't matter.

@Greg said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

Robby is correct about the controller.

I've played several thousand hours and have perfected the layout for each job and still it's cumbersome compared to the buttons 'just being there' on a keyboard. It's not designed for controller. It's designed to work on a controller.

I'm surprised that people can not get around their own experience on this one cause literally this same thing is a literal statement that I've heard flipped from people that just never play on PC.

Game is designed for both, saying it's designed to work on a controller is just also complete nonsense just from a dev history point of view.
They didn't make the game for KBM and then tried to figure out how to translate all of it to a controller.
These games were literally made with console market as a priority.

And mostly again the only reason why I feel strongly about really not letting it go on how people try to spread this is cause putting this idea of why you personally feel this is the best way to play regarding input methods into people heads is just kinda communicating a wrong expectation that might affect how people wanna get into the game when it simply doesn't matter. If you're interested in 14 play it with whatever you think appeals to you the most.

I've done savage(cleared both ew tiers) and have now touched ultimate. I know people that raid for world first playing on controller. I know people that cleared DSR clicking their buttons. Comfort trumps it all and the way people argue about the how kbm is optimal is like the same kind of optimal that if applied generally would have no one playing MMOs on anything but kb + mmo mouse and that's just nonsense.

At this point for new people my advice and the advice from even up the top raiders is play what feels comfortable for you it really doesn't matter. It's not fucking worse in any tangible way that could ever matter to you cause when world first raiders healing on astro don't care to relearn to play on keyboard with their insane competitive mindset on gaining every little thing they can to get a speed edge, it certainly won't matter in a tangible way to anyone else.

@Daz said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

A question from someone who's never played FF14, but is it some sort of multiversal FF crossover-thing? There seems to be a lot of stuff from older games in the series in it, which I know is like FF tradition, but here it's like, the entire Crystal Tower from FF3, or suddenly Ruby Weapon from FF7, or Ivalice, or literally a boss battle with Exdeath

not really multiversal imo. It's more like a theme part kinda deal. When you see marvel attraction at a theme park it's not really about how does this fit into the MCU. It's just oh that's cool I know this from x place. And that's kinda how 14 treats most of its throwbacks as far as I can remember.

The thing that sticks out to me in this game the most is how resilient the gameplay has been to devolve into one tapping units(1 hit ko-ing) which I think that is like core to like most SRPGs. I'm in chapter 3 now and this is about the point where I'd usually expect setups to come into their own and things getting to that one tap style gameplay.
While it makes battles slower I think it also makes a lot of decisions more interesting. It's really curious how I don't think I've played an SRPG in a while with this kind of approach.

I've learned one thing that was indeed removed from the psp version which was the psp exclusive addition of the rogue class.
Apparently the budget didn't allow for it to be re-included because of the extensive balancing work.