[438] Monkey D. Sociopath

Pipboy

Is anyone else really amused by the complete sociopathy of the Monkey Family? They seem to care about everything, they seem to be nice light hearted people, but then on the drop of a hat they are up in your grill trying to kill you and ruin your dreams.

I mean, Garp seems to like Luffy, love him even, but then The supreme admiral says kill and his response is "Sorry grandson whom I love greatly, but its time for you to die, right here right now. No waiting!"

Luffy is the same. He argues he yells, but when it comes time to make a decision he walks on, the going merry was abandoned without remorse though not without resistance. With crocodile he shows a complete inurement to the thought of human beings dying, to the point of philosophical eclipse with his hated enemy. Then he decides to destroy him because he likes the princess as a person.

Is it just me or are they a damn dark family. Helmeppo was right, something is wrong with them. I am thinking that Dragon could decide to sacrifice his son just as quickly as Garp.

I personally love it, but hey I am a sick man.

The_green_samurai_ranger

Actually I had a theory that Dragon was going to use Luffy to start the destruction of the World Government, then he would kill Luffy and take all the glory for "defeating the pirate threat that the World Government could not."

So mainly I believe that Dragon is going to be an evil character. Only using people to further his own plans.

Spaceman-Spiff

I think Garp knows that he can't kill Luffy that way. Garp had treated Luffy harsly many times in the past in order to train him, and he's still alive and well now.

Polygon

@Spaceman-Spiff:

I think Garp knows that he can't kill Luffy that way. Garp had treated Luffy harsly many times in the past in order to train him, and he's still alive and well now.

Exapt that he's never even tried to kill him. It's even debatable that Garp isn't trying to kill Luffy right now.

Pipboy

Does Luffy have a deceptive bone in his body? Is Garp really all that much different than his grandson?

boiga

For the record, Garp isn't trying to kill luffy. If he were, Garp would ahve used every weapon at his disposal, shaken aokiji out of bed and used the ships guns to launch more attacks than the strawhats could defend.

The way I look at the situation, Sengoku ordered garp: "Garp, go capture or kill the strahat pirates. That's an order."

So, garp does what he was ordered and tries to capture or kill the strawhats. But, because it's his grandson, he refuses to let anyone else help him do so, effectively assuring their safe getaway. I'm not even sure that Garp's ship is following luffy's as they leave W7.

Still, there is some weirdness in the Monkey family. Check out luffy's face on page 9 of ch 438. He's smiling despite going through emotional turmoil from Usopp not rejoining the crew. He's sweating behind the grin. He did the same thing when he was telling usopp that merry couldn't be their ship anymore and when vivi decided not to come with the strawhats on their adventure.
He also smiles at imminent death, as when buggy was going to execute him.

Other D's showed similar behavior. Saul's dereshishishi during a period of time when he had nothing to live for. Roger's grin on the execution stand. It's all very odd. They smile not only in the face of danger, but also as a coping mechanism for emotional upheaval.

According to dinty:
@dinty:

An Asian co-worker of mine told me that this is an "Asian cultural thing" (her words). That many Asians smile an extremely cheesy smile when they are upset or angry or dissatisfied, but when they don't want to challenge or embarrass or deal with the thing that's troublesome. A big cheesy smile communicated two things via body language : (1) that you are accepting the situation, but (2) that you would have preferred not to. We also see that sort of smile on Robin occasionally – in Skypiea and I think in Jaya.

I still think it's rather odd psycological method to handle hard times. It doesn't take much to break the surface of his goofy grin mask, and underneath it he's a big sloppy drooling mess of emotions, as is seen in this chapter.

Does it make him a sociopath? Well… that might be a step too far.

FireFistAce 0

There's a part of Luffy's life we know nothing about, and that's the time of Garp's training up to and including the arrival of Shanks. So far, we've yet to see any sort of tragedy in Luffy's life, but I'm 100% certain that his past hides a dark, horrible secret. Since Luffy never met his father, it's obvious Garp or his mother raised him. We haven't heard anything about Luffy's mother, so it's a safe bet that she's the source of whatever emotional trauma that Luffy may be facing.

That said, we know that he gets his personality from his patriarchal family side, but I'm sure something comes from the matriarchal side, too.

Pipboy

I actually was just reading your post about the smile being a coping mechanism in the main thread and I acn see that but at the same time, its not the only thing. Now Luffy is certainly not a true sociopath, the word is so fucked by common usage that its not really valid as anything more than an eyecatch. However there is a willingness to let things go, a willingness to accept the brutality and mortality of the world at face value and question it no more than any other that sets them into a abberant pathology.

Now I say abberant because it is no neccessarily a negative paradigm, just one that is frowned upon by normal humans. Luffy is certainly having a hard time letting Usopp go, but that is something he has commited to, something that is much the same as his dealings with the loss of merry. He can be emotionally demonstrative, but his commitment to the goal and his holding to a path overwhelms.

its not that he wouldn't be overjoyed to have usopp or merry back, its that he is willing to leave them behind. Sentimental but not to the point of bending.

Garp I feel was certainly trying to kill Luffy, his statement is oddly reminicient of Luffy's statement on the gallows. There is resignation to a fate, but at the same time a determination to face it well, enjoy it, relish it. Its not what Garp wants, to kill his nephew, but if his commitment to the marines (his own dream) walks the path to that end he will give it his all.

Kuzan wouldn't help him if he asked. Not with his little talk with robin and his obviously very lax commitment to the government.

Taleran

wasn't Garp just apprehensive about going against Sengoku?

Pipboy

I can give the long answer which is fraught and pedantic or i can give the short answer which is no.

nihilism

theyre the royal bloodline of the ancient kingdom.. so its sort of a 'divine right' idealism, i'm thinking

Zulen

Pipboy, are you honestly trying to tell me that Luffy goes around kicking the crap out of people at random?

Luffy is never the first to attack someone. Buggy tried to kill him, remember? Crocodile tried to kill him. Lucci tried to kill him. Arlong hurt his Nakama, yada yada yada.

Point is…

"Do unto Luffy and you'll get fucked up"

-Private Zulen 12:41

No one who harms Luffy or his nakama gets away with it. He will come and kick his ass. They are not innocent people; they are villianious criminals who deserve a great thrashing.

Pipboy

Do I think such? No not really.

Luffy is a simple action/reaction machine. He goes for what he wants and then responds to any barriers that are placed in front of him. But he decided to destroy crocodile back in Whiskey peak just because he liked Vivi. If that isn't…. a bit tempestuous.... I don't know what is.

Overall you don't have to scratch deep to find someone who is eminently willing to destroy you. And you don't necessarily need to be the one who does the scratching. Luffy can champion someone elses cause because he likes them, and your a casualty of such a decision.

Zulen

@Pipboy:

Do I think such? No not really.

Luffy is a simple action/reaction machine. He goes for what he wants and then responds to any barriers that are placed in front of him. But he decided to destroy crocodile back in Whiskey peak just because he liked Vivi. If that isn't…. a bit tempestuous.... I don't know what is.

Overall you don't have to scratch deep to find someone who is eminently willing to destroy you. And you don't necessarily need to be the one who does the scratching. Luffy can champion someone elses cause because he likes them, and your a casualty of such a decision.

I'm fairly certain Luffy was more concerned with Crocodile's plan to kill millions of people more so 'because he liked Vivi'.

Pipboy

Quite the contrary.

To paraphrase,

Luffy: She really is a kind person, she wants to end this war without one soul dying.
Crocodile: haha, what a fool, you and I both know that battles are paid in blood.

Luffy: Yeah, she is a fool, but I like her and I am going to kick you ass.

Luffy doesn't give a shit about people in general (though he won't pick/pursue a fight at random or against someone that he feels is misguided), only specifically.

Zulen

By saying that Luffy doesn't snap and start beating the shit out of people, haven't you proven your own post wrong?

This isn't really a dark family. They do what they feel is right, and hey, if you don't believe it's right, tough shit, because their the ones with the power to face 100,000,000 volts of electricity and live.

And Luffy didn't kill Crocodile. He only wanted to stop Operation Utopia so his nakama wouldn't die.

…That doesn't seem like a Sociopath to me. His logic is very straightforward, yes, and it may require a bit of hard thinking, but I wouldn't classify it as "dark" and "sick".

boiga

@Private:

I'm fairly certain Luffy was more concerned with Crocodile's plan to kill millions of people more so 'because he liked Vivi'.

Actually, pipboy has the right of it there. If luffy had to decide between the destruction of a nation to which he has no ties or the death of a nakama's dream… I could very easily see him choosing the dream.

He didn't fight buggy because buggy attacked first. He fought buggy because the dog's food store burnt down and the old mayor was willing to sacrifice himself for the pride of the town.

He fought croc because of the nami's map making room. He fought kuro because usopp was willing to sacrifice himself in obscurity to save a town that hated him. He fought in drum island to show chopper had nakama. He attacked the WG because they threatened his nakama. Enel he fought to mainly to show acornhead that jaya did exist.

Luffy doesn't make himself out as a hero that fights bad guys because they do bad things. He doesn't even search out fights with difficult enemies for training purpose (think how he avoided messing with smoker).

His motivation for fighting comes about when he meets someone whose noble dream has been desecrated, and he will fight whoever it takes to make that dream come to light.

In retrospect... that is a little psycho...

Pipboy

Like I said, sociopath is not an accurate definition of what he is. The word itself is a bastardized conglomerate that doesn't mean what people think it means most of the time.

In my context I am using it for -1- For shock value. And -2- to state that luffy is compeltely beyond the pale mores of appropriate human behavior. Truely the fact that he has human relations mean that he isn't a true sociopath but he has much in common with Jack Bauer in the he has sociopathic tendancies.

"he only wanted to stop operation utopia so his nakama wouldn't die"

EXACTLY! His entire motivation is predicated on the close social bonds of crew and family and bollox on the rest. Oh yeah and Admiration of a dream..

Zulen

"Protect your nakama" is the theme of One Piece. What better to follow through with that than having Luffy kick ass to protect his nakama?

Like I said, he rarely kills anyone. He usually just breaks 'em up so they can watch their dreams fall apart before their very eyes. Ouch.

Pipboy

<–- Reads to much Berserk/Gantz, lives soul corroding life.

joekido the Second

Luffy always thinks about his Nakama and does not care about people in general. I think it's kinda selfish but he makes friends easliy so I'll say that when someone blows up the town, Luffy and his crews are watching people die, would he care? No I suppose, he does not help anyone he does not like.

Pipboy

Of course the flip side of that being that all it takes to launch a righteous crusade is a little bit of "those poor people" from chopper.

Dr. Casey

@joekido:

so I'll say that when someone blows up the town, Luffy and his crews are watching people die, would he care? No I suppose, he does not help anyone he does not like.

That's a bit of a stretch… just because his main priority is helping those close to him doesn't mean he's apathetic towards random people. If he's empathetic towards his nakama, there's no reason that wouldn't carry over to strangers to a lesser degree.

Angel emfrbl

Ace took out the Baroque works billion fleet because they threatened to kill him. Ace is not pursuing Blackbeard because he hates him, he has a duty to fulfill. Blackbeard is racksacking everywhere not because he hates them, he is just doing what pirates do. Blackbeard isn't chasing Luffy because he hates him, he is just after someone with a high bounty. Saul protected Robin because she was his friend. Garp isn't trying to take out Luffy because he is his grandson, its just as a marine he is called into fulfil his duty.

I see no problem with Garp taking on Luffy. He plundered in a convo while using a Den Den Mushi, he mention Luffy was his grandson. So he the marines aren't convinced he told the truth now and they sent him back. To be honest, its just Garp's personnelity being put into place here if anything, showing us even though he is tough he does even more stupider things then Luffy does.

Pipboy

Not to be excessively contrary but Ace isn't a Monkey.

Zephos

Ruthless and single-minded maybe.
But Socioathes are emotionless shells.
Luffy has no resemblance to them.

AvanMilton

@boiga:

Actually, pipboy has the right of it there. If luffy had to decide between the destruction of a nation to which he has no ties or the death of a nakama's dream… I could very easily see him choosing the dream.

He didn't fight buggy because buggy attacked first. He fought buggy because the dog's food store burnt down and the old mayor was willing to sacrifice himself for the pride of the town.

He fought croc because of the nami's map making room. He fought kuro because usopp was willing to sacrifice himself in obscurity is the boss and realizeto save a town that hated him. He fought in drum island to show chopper had nakama. He attacked the WG because they threatened his nakama. Enel he fought to mainly to show acornhead that jaya did exist.

Luffy doesn't make himself out as a hero that fights bad guys because they do bad things. He doesn't even search out fights with difficult enemies for training purpose (think how he avoided messing with smoker).

His motivation for fighting comes about when he meets someone whose noble dream has been desecrated, and he will fight whoever it takes to make that dream come to light.

In retrospect... that is a little psycho...

Lets see, enemies and reason why Luffy powed then
Alvida - Kinda protecting Coby, he only attacked after Coby faced her.
Moochi (the animal trainer) - The dog
Buggy - the Mayor
Kuro - Ussop, later his pirate pride
Krieg - His pride as a future pirate king, found a way to skip working in Baratie
Arlong - the motherf@&@!# hurt my navigator, he found a way to help (understand) her
Smoke - he never had a reason to stay and fight, even more when he found the his attacks where useless.
Zoro - he hurted the guys that gave him food (pride??)
Red Giant - defending himself
Mister 3 - messing with the giants battle (pride)
Vapol - Defending himself (at ship), attacking his friends (while climbing the montain), defending a pirate pride (while in the caste)
Smoke - again, same reason
Crocodile - just because Vivi was willing to do everything, including killing herseft for the sake of her country, Luffy didn't wanted that, so he went do kill crocodile himself.
The guy in Jaya (tottally forgot name) - he stole the gold
Enel - he JUST was in the way for the bell, he was kinda pissed about his fried nakama as well.
Foxy - game = protect his nakama
Lucci - find what is wrong with Robin
Blueno - rescue Robin
Lucci - rescue Robin

With that said, he is no psico, he most of the times is fighting for someone else, sometimes he fight for his own beliefs or defending himself.

And yes, i really think Garp is trying to capture Luffy, maybe not with killing intent but he isn't using all his weapons against him, to give him a chance. Like a father who hit his son hard but not enought to actually hurt him, just to show to the children who is the boss and that whatever stuff the kid did, it was fucking wrong.

AD-HD Pirate

This post is deleted!

AD-HD Pirate

I always thought that they are people who don't care anything, but their nakamas, dreams and lifestyles.

That is quite good way to live, actually.

gallowsx

one thing i must say.. he has traits of a Histrionic Personality Disorder

Angel emfrbl

Things Luffy is willing to protect….

-Treasures (his hat, The dog's pet shop)...
-Dreams (we should all know wherever he goes villians end their dreams, Oda himself stated that). Usually stuff like Kuro and Arlong happen because of a friend is involved.
-Beliefs (What pirates are and are not)
-Friendship (done enough times in this manga alreadly.

Its not so much the battles but the future Luffy is building taking place. He fights for the lost treasures people hold dearly to them such as the shop because showing them strength keeps their hopes up that its not all over and that some revenge has been played out on their behalf. Ending the dreams of villians means people have their dreams of freedom from their repressor renewed, people cqan continue living happy. Fighting for beliefs such as the pirate code will see there is far fewer bad pirates in the future. And friends... Do I need to say that one?

Quote Shanks: I beat it (his arm) on the future (we see Luffy as a child as Shanks departs).

Luffy is building a future.

kislio

Meh. Luffy does what he thinks is right, full stop. Luffy fights Crocodile because of the emotional pain he put Vivi through, not because of all the people Crocodile was planning to kill. I don't think Luffy really cared, but then again, why should he? Luffy's pretty simple, and it can be hard to relate to people who you've never met, who will never impact you in any way. Luffy's a pirate, and although he's not the traditional pillage-and-rape type of pirate, he can still be kind of cold sometimes. It's the people who are close to him who matter, not random citizens of some sandy island thing. If it were me, and it came down to the entire population of a city and someone I consider a nakama, I'd probably choose my nakama. Yes, I'm aware I'm a horrible, horrible person.

AD-HD Pirate

@kislio:

Meh. Luffy does what he thinks is right, full stop. Luffy fights Crocodile because of the emotional pain he put Vivi through, not because of all the people Crocodile was planning to kill. I don't think Luffy really cared, but then again, why should he? Luffy's pretty simple, and it can be hard to relate to people who you've never met, who will never impact you in any way. Luffy's a pirate, and although he's not the traditional pillage-and-rape type of pirate, he can still be kind of cold sometimes. It's the people who are close to him who matter, not random citizens of some sandy island thing. If it were me, and it came down to the entire population of a city and someone I consider a nakama, I'd probably choose my nakama. Yes, I'm aware I'm a horrible, horrible person.

I agree with you completely.

boiga

With his opinions or that he's a horrible person?

Oh, and Luffy didn't fight bellamy (guy on jaya) just because of the gold. He fought him for ridiculing montblanc's dream of the lost city.

AD-HD Pirate

@boiga:

With his opinions or that he's a horrible person?

Oh, and Luffy didn't fight bellamy (guy on jaya) just because of the gold. He fought him for ridiculing montblanc's dream of the lost city.

With his opinions.

hollow9

The Monkey family just puts their duty before everything else:
Garp-the marines
Luffy-his dreams and his crew and their dreams
Ace-crew and white beard
Dragon-his revolution

SteveRessel

@Pipboy:

I mean, Garp seems to like Luffy, love him even, but then The supreme admiral says kill and his response is "Sorry grandson whom I love greatly, but its time for you to die, right here right now. No waiting!"

You have to understand something very simple, my son:

There is a time for everything…

Turn Turn...

To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven

A time to build up,a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together

To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven

A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace, a time to refrain from embracing

To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven

A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time to kill Luffy, kill him now, it's not too late.

*Meh*

If I understand correctly what a sociopath is, then Luffy is definitely a sociopath. His personal wants come before the needs of other people. In this case, his personal wants often overlap with what are considered positive moral virtues, i.e. protecting his friends, pursuing his personal ambition, smashing pirate groups, etc. Look at what he told Laboon after the ship was swallowed. "We're all going on an adventure! I need them!" Essentially, he also told Arlong the same thing-I need them.They are as much tools as friends. Because of his commitment to become Pirate King, rather than just becoming a famous pirate, Luffy is constantly moving forward in the Grand Line. He rarely has the opportunity to pillage, so he seems like a good-natured kid. After partying with the Shandians for three days, however, he decides to steal a bunch of their gold. Sure, they wanted to give him more than he took, but what if they hadn't? It's still theft, and theft from people whose trust he had earned. Most of the pirates Luffy has attacked were trying to hurt or kill people he had befriended. Otherwise, it's doubtful he'd have gone out of his way to help. Just because we don't see Luffy making trousers out of someone's skin does not mean he is not sociopathic. On the other hand, just as long as circumstance plays in his favor, Luffy will continue looking like a hero. A sociopathic hero.

SteveRessel

ahem

Autism.

*Meh*

….
....

>
<<
..Whose?

Dr. Casey

Silly Ressel. What makes you think Luffy is autistic?

SteveRessel

Oh, nothing.

Except for the obvious autism.

kislio

@_Meh_:

If I understand correctly what a sociopath is, then Luffy is definitely a sociopath. His personal wants come before the needs of other people. In this case, his personal wants often overlap with what are considered positive moral virtues, i.e. protecting his friends, pursuing his personal ambition, smashing pirate groups, etc. Look at what he told Laboon after the ship was swallowed. "We're all going on an adventure! I need them!" Essentially, he also told Arlong the same thing-I need them.They are as much tools as friends. Because of his commitment to become Pirate King, rather than just becoming a famous pirate, Luffy is constantly moving forward in the Grand Line. He rarely has the opportunity to pillage, so he seems like a good-natured kid. After partying with the Shandians for three days, however, he decides to steal a bunch of their gold. Sure, they wanted to give him more than he took, but what if they hadn't? It's still theft, and theft from people whose trust he had earned. Most of the pirates Luffy has attacked were trying to hurt or kill people he had befriended. Otherwise, it's doubtful he'd have gone out of his way to help. Just because we don't see Luffy making trousers out of someone's skin does not mean he is not sociopathic. On the other hand, just as long as circumstance plays in his favor, Luffy will continue looking like a hero. A sociopathic hero.

Um. It seems we took Luffy's "I need them" thing totally differently. I took it to mean something more along the lines of, "I need them because I love them and I don't know what I'll do if they die because it'll completely kill me inside". Luffy stole the gold because like I said before, he's a pirate and he wants to do pirate things. He's just like that dorky little kid down the street who follows you around and tries to sneak in and watch those movies his parents told him not to because he's BIG BOY, goddammit, and he wants to do BIG BOY things. Except, you know. With grand larceny.

Pipboy

I wouldn't say autism, I would say functional retardation.

Oh and I love the whole "except with grand larcency bit" that is pretty much the definition of psychopathic behavior, an inabilty to contextualize behavior. Of course the real problem is in the vocabulary.

natli

The only moment when Luffy behaved in a cruel way was when he attacked Zoro in Whiskey Peak. A complete stranger told him that his nakama killed innocent people (which was the truth without the "innocent" bit) and he believed instantly. When Zoro wanted to explain what happened, Luffy said that he didn't care. And he didn't hold back in the resulting duel. Of course, when Nami ended the fight the way she did it all started looking like a gag. But I can't find an excuse for Luffy. Was he really that stupid?

gallowsx

not sociopath.. i repeat histrionic personality disorder..

MAcobo

@natli:

Is he really that stupid?

Fixed.
Shortly: Yes!

People can't take the world on their shoulders and luffy is no superman. He often values people's dreams more than themselves.
People need to keep in mind that Luffy's very simple-minded.
Why did he like Vivi? Because of her will (dream) to stop Crocodile. He saw what Crocs men did. That was a reason enough.

Most of shounen chars are "sociopaths" in the context that some see Luffy.
What was goku? He never really spent time with his sons (except to train). He was always away from home just to train or fight bad guys. All that seems to suggest that the only thing he cared about is fights, not his family.

Impel Down

I have a question, since we're on the topic. Is Dragon with the Pirates or is his a diffrent group all together?

AD-HD Pirate

Dragon is revolutionary.

He leads giant revolutionary army.

Impel Down

So, he isn't a pirate either. Hmm. I wonder who Luffy's momma is? That tavern woman from his home island?