From what I've read some people think that Arlong and Croc could still put up a decent fight. Others tend to think they're plain ol' punching bags. Which is closer to 'reality'? How much has Luffy actually improved twofold, threefold, a hundred fold?
How much has Luffy improved?
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30 million to 300 million… about tenfold, I'd say.
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Arlong would get curb stomped by the gears (not that Luffy would need them)- Lucci was miles and miles above Arlong as far as brawlers go.
Croc would remain a tough fight, especially now that he wouldn't be screwing around with Luffy anymore. He never did take Luffy seriously until about midway through thier third fight, and even then he had Luffy fatally poisoned if Chopper and the Alabasta doctors hadn't treated him.
Croc's tricky because as he demonstrated in the second fight, if he's ready for it, he can absorb moisture so it's not as much a weakness as people think, or at least not one he hasn't accounted for.
If Luffy and Croc were to just suddenly run into each other, it'd be a hellish throwdown. Arlong doesn't even belong in the same grouping as a Shichibukai, as cool as he may have been at the time.
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Luffy's strength, agility, and endurance hasn't increased at all. He's probably still where he was in East Blue, only in Grand Line there are a lot more outlets for expressing his old abilities. The same applies for every other Straw Hat except Zoro and maybe Usopp.
However, Luffy's techniques have become a great deal more scientific or creative, and thus are better applications of his strength. So, I'd say Luffy's improved a LOT as far as DF mastery goes, but very little for his own personal attributes.
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Bah…. Gears...
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WAIT. How can people think that Luffy hasn't improved since the beginning of One Piece? It's practically anime law that characters get stronger as the story progresses. Hell Zoro even explained to Nami on the Rocketman how they had all developed, whether they realized it or not. The more you fight, the better you become. Simple as that.
And on a personal note, i think that Luffy could KO Arlong in a matter of seconds at this point. If he manages to get Croc wet, even for a minute, he could go gear 2nd and beat him in no time. He'd still be tough though. I mean, he was a shichibukai. -
@Private:
Bah…. Gears...
Technique. If Luffy was really all that with strength/speed, he wouldn't have needed the Gears, now would he?
WAIT. How can people think that Luffy hasn't improved since the beginning of One Piece? It's practically anime law that characters get stronger as the story progresses.
Watch it with that brain of yours; if you think hard enough, you might actually say something meaningful.
Hell Zoro even explained to Nami on the Rocketman how they had all developed, whether they realized it or not. The more you fight, the better you become. Simple as that.
So I guess old animals in the wild must be stronger than young ones since they're more experienced?
Zoro was obviously talking just about himself, since his statement was meant to inspire his fellows had no basis from which to be derived from. How the EL fights bloomed is evidence of this; Luffy needed two special techniques to beat Lucci, Chopper failed to beat Kumadori, Nami needed a special tool to beat Califa, Usopp couldn't beat ANYONE, Zoro didn't do anything really special and Sanji wasn't strong enough to outright overpower Jyabs.
The Straw Hats are better fights, probably. Stronger? Heck no; if they spent ten or so years of their lives getting up to East Blue level, so it's illogical for them to suddenly skyrocket to the top of Grand Line's wanted list if those ten years didn't have some longstanding effect on their current abilities.
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Luffy's strength, agility, and endurance hasn't increased at all. He's probably still where he was in East Blue, only in Grand Line there are a lot more outlets for expressing his old abilities. The same applies for every other Straw Hat except Zoro and maybe Usopp.
I'm sorry, no.
Speed, strength and endurance have all increased by incredible amounts.
Sorry I just have to quote this one again:
He's probably still where he was in East Blue, only in Grand Line there are a lot more outlets for expressing his old abilities.
I mean come on, you seriously typed that with a strait face?
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Shonen law is pretty immutable in that respect Terek. Your barking up the wrong tree if you think that you can apply actual science to such a phenomena as powerups. If you look at what you said then looked at all the old guys in shonen, they are in fact obscenely powerful.
There is obviously an incredible degree of improvement. For example, Luffy barely managed to grab Kuro after he struck with his shakushi, and then by enies lobby was grabbing blueno mid strike and Coby with contemptuous ease.
Think on that. And you have the relation of Luffy to most of his East blue villians. Kuro wouldn't be a fight now, neither would Kreig or Arlong. I am hesistant to put numbers to it but alot more powerful in all respects barring even the powerup abilties.
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I always thought that Kuro's Shakushi was pretty damn fast, compareable to soru. But he didn't show much else in the fighting department other than awsome speed. Arlong is a much weaker Lucci without the speed, so Luffy would beat him without too much trouble now. Kreig…he was more gimmicky than powerful, so Luffy would beat him fine, plus tht armour wouldn't be useful as Luffy can break tekkai without gears ie. vs. Blueno (but I can't remember him breaking Lucci's tekkai without gears, or if he even managed a solid hit on the guy pre-gears). As for Buggy, I'm in the Buggy-will-be-back-much-ubered camp, so...
Croc and Ener will always be a tough fight, no matter how powerful Luffy will get. Croc has near perfect control of his ability, and I believe he didn't take Luffy seriously until he started using the poison hook. Plus, the record is in favor of Croc: two comprehensive wins, and one loss which can also be called a draw. Ener...is dubious. We never saw him fight seriously ever, even against Luffy. When Luffy started hitting him, he panicked and avoided him completely, so we have very little idea about his h2h, which wasn't shabby at all. Plus, I don't know if Ener's mantra would be effective against gear 2's speed.
EDIT: Correction on Arlong. He isn't physically weaker, but he is a brawler, and on a tier much lower than Lucci.
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The biggest mystery is what happened to Enel's speed during the fight? For a guy supposedly lightning incarnate, he sure didn't move as fast as lighting. My guess is jobber aura.
As for the topic at hand, it's obvious luffy has improved. Gears (althought I think they were quite cliche) are an obvious example of improvemnt. But when he fought Blueno before using Gears, his speed was much improved because Luffy definitley couldn't move like that before.
As for strength, at first he couldn't break tekai, but he obviously broke through that not to mention pushing two buildings apart. He's improved quite a bit I must say.
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^The thing I liked most about the Skypeia Arc was that Oda let Ener loose without having him job! He setup Ener's character just so that he wouldn't have had to have Luffy face a full powered Ener, a fight I doubt Luffy could have won. Ener's God complex partly stemmed from the fact that no one had ever hit him in a fight. Then along comes Luffy and smacks multiple times, which makes Ener panick, and etc etc. Long story short, Ener's shock of being hit by a 'non-God' thre him of his game. ^_^
On Topic: What gaara d. lucci said.
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Speed, strength and endurance have all increased by incredible amounts.
Prove it.
I mean come on, you seriously typed that with a strait face?
Your claim of being able to identify the increase of strength in One Piece is only exceeded by your seemingly low reading comprehension. Tell me, are you deliberately trying to make me chuckle, or is that post of yours just some unfortunate travesty?
What I outlined is utterly fundamental, much more verifiable that silly normative "feelings" or "impressions"; to clarify for the simple minded, "outlets" mean reference points. "If one has the strength to throw boulders, how can one demonstrate said strength without a boulder to throw?
Shonen law is pretty immutable in that respect Terek. Your barking up the wrong tree if you think that you can apply actual science to such a phenomena as powerups. If you look at what you said then looked at all the old guys in shonen, they are in fact obscenely powerful.
Excuse me? What is this "shounen law"? Are you saying all shounen are the same? If that's so, One Piece clearly isn't shounen, since it tends to deviate from any "genericism" in a host of different ways.
Using "shounen law" to define something as retarded as "improvement in strength" is utter bullcrack that only lazy fools would use in argument. If you're going to convince me the Straw Hats improved, show me an instance of the Straw Hats failing to do something earlier but managing to accomplish said feat later.
I'll give you two examples:
1. Zoro hearing the breath of steel.
2. Zoro developing his pound cannons.That's it; Zoro is the only character who has improved, and rightfully so, since as a fighter that's his primary job.
There is obviously an incredible degree of improvement. For example, Luffy barely managed to grab Kuro after he struck with his shakushi, and then by enies lobby was grabbing blueno mid strike and Coby with contemptuous ease.
Um, what's with this fiction? Luffy had no trouble grabbing Kuro when he actually made the effort to do so, and even then that was Luffy's first experience with "super speed" characters; he followed Kuro fairly smoothly and beat him up quite soundly despite the speed advantage.
During Luffy v. Blueno, Luffy did exactly the same; he kept up with Soru (but did not equal it) enough to fight an even fight with Blueno until he used Gear 2.
Kuro wouldn't be a fight now, neither would Kreig or Arlong.
With what? Gears? Of course Gear 2/3 Luffy would crush Kuro/Arlong/Krieg. But normal Luffy? Assuming Luffy was actually going in for a rematch, he'd probably fare just as well as when he did the first time. Remember that normal Luffy could break Krieg's thick armour, which was made of incredibly hard steel, but he couldn't break the door into the tunnel under Enies Lobby; does that mean East Blue Luffy > Enies Lobby Luffy???
Of course not. They're exactly the same, except the latter has more techniques and experience. That's what allowed Luffy to catch Koby, not because he was strong; he could predict how Koby was going to attack and caught him off guard. That has nothing to do with strength/speed/agility gained since East Blue.
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Your claim of being able to identify the increase of strength in One Piece is only exceeded by your seemingly low reading comprehension. Tell me, are you deliberately trying to make me chuckle, or is that post of yours just some unfortunate travesty?
What I outlined is utterly fundamental, much more verifiable that silly normative "feelings" or "impressions"; to clarify for the simple minded, "outlets" mean reference points. "If one has the strength to throw boulders, how can one demonstrate said strength without a boulder to throw?
This is what I call the: "lets utilize my vocabulary to make my statement seem more legitimate" response. Except it doesn’t, and nether does your insults.
As to defending myself, are you kidding me? You might as well make a poll titled “Has Luffy gotten stronger since the beginning of One Piece?” Talk about dumb questions. I don’t need to insult you, you’ve insulted yourself enough already.
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This is what I call the: "lets utilize my vocabulary to make my statement seem more legitimate" response. Except it doesn’t, and nether does your insults.
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What in the nine naraku are you trying to say here?
As to defending myself, are you kidding me?
You might as well make a poll titled “Has Luffy gotten stronger since the beginning of One Piece?” Talk about dumb questions. I don’t need to insult you, you’ve insulted yourself enough already.I'm sorry, what's this I just slashed out of your comment? The first line read, "to defending myself" which is already a curiously constructed sentence as is, but to my utter surprise the rest of the paragraph had nothing to do with said "defending".
You're basically saying, "it's obvious the Straw Hats have gotten stronger" as an argument without providing any evidence to say so. Citing other manga and as another poster mentioned a "shounen law" isn't concrete; it's speculative or dubious at best because that sort of "evidence" isn't fact to begin with.
I provided solid examples of Zoro improving his game in OP; it wasn't that Zoro just spontaneously invented a new technique, he had a problem, thought of a way to overcome it, and quickly developed a solution to said problem. That's "improvement" in that it differes significantly from just coming up with new techniques on a whim.
The subject of this topic, however, is "how much has Luffy improved?", to which I say "there has been no improvement"; like Zoro, Luffy has encountered tricky situations where he developed a technique to defeat a certain opponent, but unlike Zoro Luffy's technique was only applicable for said one instance. Examples include Luffy v. Croc, Luffy v. Mr.3, and Luffy v. Ener.
Nami has also improved in the sense that she has a more powerful weapon and can spam electricity like nobody's business, which is a huge improvement over her old Clima-Tact. However, that does not mean she's any "stronger" than how she was in East Blue.
Sanji pretty much follows the same deal, as do Usopp and Chopper.
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Now, sleep.
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@Log:
From what I've read some people think that Arlong and Croc could still put up a decent fight. Others tend to think they're plain ol' punching bags. Which is closer to 'reality'? How much has Luffy actually improved twofold, threefold, a hundred fold?
IMO Arlong had nothing on Luffy. Luffy was fooling around during the first 2/3 of the fight, but when he got pissed… oh man. He just opened a can of whoop-ass on him.
I think that Croc may actually stand a chance against Luffy, but only if they were to fight in a place that had the same arid conditions of Alabasta. I mean Luffy attacking at super speed or super power is all fine and dandy, but if it were the case that they were fighting in a place like Alabasta, where Luffy had to handicap himself to the pointer where he's bleeding and sweating throughtout his entire body while being poisoned, may cause him some trouble.
His only real growth in strength that Ive seen so far was during the Croc and Lucchi fight. Where he was put to the point to total exahastion and drawing out all of his strength.
To put it simply, you can see his first burst of growth from the Croc fight, where he developed Gomu Gomu no Storm
The second would be after the AoKiji fight. He kinda revealed during the Blueno fight that he was trying hard to become stronger after that fight.
The Lucchi thing can be debated. That fight either shows growth or the absolute limit of Luffy's power.
I never count the Buggy, Alvida, Morgan, Kuro, or Enel fights as a growth in strength. In all these cases, you can obviously see Luffy only using what is need to defeat them, or him completely being retarded and fooling around
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@Malintex_Terek: Nope this time you are wrong. Luffy has grown stronger physically and it is quite obvious he did. Compare how he got stuck in a cage during his encounter with Buggy and couldn't escape to how broke the two houses in Water 7 or how he needed to be hypnotized to break apart Kuro's ship to how he went on a rampage in Enies Lobby.
Same with his agility. If he had been so quick right from the start why would he have gotten wounded by the likes of Kuro and Krieg? He could keep up with Blueno's speed and even alter the path of his Rankyaku, compared to that Kuro's hopping around and Krieg's javelin gatling and his exploding lolly are nothing.
As for his endurance, he was exhausted after the Kuro fight and what did he do there? Beat up Kuro and a few of his crew that's all. Gee I wonder how he wrecked a city, beat up a thousand marines, Blueno and Lucci if he still had the same endurance as back then. -
I don't seem to understand the topic..
If Luffy needs to win, he'll win. No matter who you put against him. Yeah, there are things around it, but that's basically it.
Luffy -will- become the PK, so he -will- win any fights that has to do with it [protecting his nakama gets here somwhere]. -
@Rai:
I don't seem to understand the topic..
If Luffy needs to win, he'll win. No matter who you put against him. Yeah, there are things around it, but that's basically it.
Luffy -will- become the PK, so he -will- win any fights that has to do with it [protecting his nakama gets here somwhere].Except he lost to Croc twice and Aokiji once … so it isn't that simple as Luffy would win all fights.
Terek, I'm not sure if you are reading the same manga as me but I find Luffy has improved by a considerable amount, dare say exponential amount! There was once a time when the fact Luffy could stretch his arm, punch a Seaking and rocket himself up a tower was amazing and made him a superhuman amongst the town folks. Now Luffy can break 2 house he is stuck in, wreck an entire island of marine and took down the strongest secret agent of the marine in history. Yet after all this he still isn't the man with the highest bounty and there is still a long way to go relize his dream of Pirate King ...
There was a time Kuro was fast as hell, now Luffy could keep up with that speed. There was a time when Luffy needed several attempts break Kreigs armour, now Luffy could break Tekai with his Rifle. Back in East Blue Luffy's strongest attack undoubtly was his Axe, which shattered Krieg's ship and broke Arlong Park, but now he could punch right through bedrocks with Storm. If you ask me the moment I relize how much stronger Luffy got was when he OHKO Bellamy. Need I say more?
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The Straw Hats are better fights, probably. Stronger? Heck no; if they spent ten or so years of their lives getting up to East Blue level, so it's illogical for them to suddenly skyrocket to the top of Grand Line's wanted list if those ten years didn't have some longstanding effect on their current abilities.
I think this is the part people are missing. This is what basically makes your point Terek, at least in my view. All the crew has some backstory on how they were able to get stronger in what they do now.
- Luffy was trained 10 years before he left the village.
- Zoro trained that the dojo for roughly the same time, and was a bounty hunter for a good while.
- Nami was robbing pirates for 8 years.
- Usopp was always playing around with that slingshot.
- Sanji was being traines by Zeff for the time he was the Baratie.
- Chopper trained himsel, and invented the rumble ball.
- Robin had 20 years of evading the World Government and most likely fought alot of people.
- Franky dismantled ships and created the Battle Frankys.
All they are basically doing is expanding on they things they already knw how to do. The only one who has actually gotten stronger, as Terek pointed out, is Zoro. The others just gain more experience, and learn to widen their technique with their abilities.
Why do you think no one really "trains" bar Zoro. They're already physically ready for whatever fighting style they use. There's never been a "training arc" like other series, so whoever said that Shonen law crap can stop. They already have that training under their belt. All they've gained is experience and some bounties on their heads.
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Except he lost to Croc twice and Aokiji once … so it isn't that simple as Luffy would win all fights.
Terek, I'm not sure if you are reading the same manga as me but I find Luffy has improved by a considerable amount, dare say exponential amount! There was once a time when the fact Luffy could stretch his arm, punch a Seaking and rocket himself up a tower was amazing and made him a superhuman amongst the town folks. Now Luffy can break 2 house he is stuck in, wreck an entire island of marine and took down the strongest secret agent of the marine in history. Yet after all this he still isn't the man with the highest bounty and there is still a long way to go relize his dream of Pirate King ...
There was a time Kuro was fast as hell, now Luffy could keep up with that speed. There was a time when Luffy needed several attempts break Kreigs armour, now Luffy could break Tekai with his Rifle. Back in East Blue Luffy's strongest attack undoubtly was his Axe, which shattered Krieg's ship and broke Arlong Park, but now he could punch right through bedrocks with Storm. If you ask me the moment I relize how much stronger Luffy got was when he OHKO Bellamy. Need I say more?
Hey, did you read the post? I said Luffy will win fights he needs to. As I see it, they got perfectly fine after those loses, thus those wins weren't really needed. In fact, some of them had to end up as loses.
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Oh, and about the Kuro speed thingy:
If I remember correctly, didn't Luffy actually catch Kuro just before he did the Shakushi in the manga? In the anime he missed and then caught him at the middle of it, but wasn't the manga different? -
Since it's only been about 2 or 3 months since Luffy and the others set out, I don't think that they've physically gotten that much stronger. They have, however, gotten a whole lot stronger in terms of fighting experience, and they know how to make better use of the strength, speed, and endurance that they've had since the beginning. So from fighting smarter and mastering their attacks, they have gotten a shitload stronger. I have no doubt that Luffy could beat Arlong, Krieg, Ener, and maybe even Crocodile with much less effort than he did before (in his normal state) simply because he's gotten smarter about using his strength and has had more experience fighting.
In martial arts, form is much more important than power, and their "form" has gotten much better. -
Since it's only been about 2 or 3 months since Luffy and the others set out, I don't think that they've physically gotten that much stronger. They have, however, gotten a whole lot stronger in terms of fighting experience, and they know how to make better use of the strength, speed, and endurance that they've had since the beginning. So from fighting smarter and mastering their attacks, they have gotten a shitload stronger. I have no doubt that Luffy could beat Arlong, Krieg, Ener, and maybe even Crocodile with much less effort than he did before (in his normal state) simply because he's gotten smarter about using his strength and has had more experience fighting.
In martial arts, form is much more important than power, and their "form" has gotten much better.Exactly, utilizing your abilities will make you stronger because you better know what your doing and can use more of your potential. think of zoro when he fought das bones. he learned how to cut steel and thus became "stronger" although he didn;t get a instant boost in raw physical strength. if that example doesn;t work then all i gotta say is gear 2. gear 2 is Luffy using his DF ability in an advanced way. instead of simply streching his arm to hit someone he uses his ability to increase his strength and speed. i doubt anyone would agrue when i say Luffy is much more stronger in gear 2 than he is normally, so that means just gaining the ability to use gear 2 makes Luffy that much stronger. remember its not what abilities you have, its how you use them that makes it powerful.
Now that thats been said, i can say they also physically improve a lot during their journey. If you remember skypia then you'll remember how everyone was out of breath after fighting the ballon octopus and flat fish. being higher up means the air is thinner so people who aren;t used to it have trouble breathing. they quickly got over this which means an improvement in their lung capacity which pretty mush means you gained a whole bunch of stamina/endurance. as far as raw physical power goes, at least zoro has to have improved. that mans pastime is lifting weights. with the amount of training he goes through there is no doubt that physically he has to be stronger than before.
so yea, the SH's are way stronger than they were at teh start of the series if only because they are more experienced fighters.
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@Log:
From what I've read some people think that Arlong and Croc could still put up a decent fight. Others tend to think they're plain ol' punching bags. Which is closer to 'reality'? How much has Luffy actually improved twofold, threefold, a hundred fold?
IMO, he's improved a lot. And remember Croc owes most of his strength to the fact he actually honed his DF powers.
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I'm sorry, what's this I just slashed out of your comment? The first line read, "to defending myself" which is already a curiously constructed sentence as is, but to my utter surprise the rest of the paragraph had nothing to do with said "defending".
Ok, let me spell this out for you: When people get hit on a constant basis -they become more resilient. When people dodge on a constant basis -they become more agile. You see where I'm going with this? This is not restricted to One Piece, it's a fact of life.
Someone who is constantly in fights their entire life (or even for a few years) is a hell of a lot stronger, able to take more punishment, quicker, and better at doing damage then someone who isn't.
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Ok, let me spell this out for you: When people get hit on a constant basis -they become more resilient. When people dodge on a constant basis -they become more agile. You see where I'm going with this? This is not restricted to One Piece, it's a fact of life.
Someone who is constantly in fights their entire life (or even for a few years) is a hell of a lot stronger, able to take more punishment, quicker, and better at doing damage then someone who isn't.
Ain't that the goddamn truth.
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Their definitely getting stronger i don't think they can 1Hit KO their earlier enemies though
Wasn't breaking kreigs armour a bit of a plot hole, since kreigs armour was mean't to be some sort of super steel and yet luffy couldn't break tekkai?
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The first line read, "to defending myself" which is already a curiously constructed sentence as is […]
Do not forget people here aren't necessarily native speakers.
I don't know if that's Cinnabon's case, but even then, I doubt mocking his grammar gives you a point.Back on topic, I think Kokolores said it all :
@Kokolores:As for his endurance, he was exhausted after the Kuro fight and what did he do there? Beat up Kuro and a few of his crew that's all. Gee I wonder how he wrecked a city, beat up a thousand marines, Blueno and Lucci if he still had the same endurance as back then.
Also, I'd add that Oda most probably didn't think the story would develop that much, at the time he had The Mugiwaras in East Blue : so, I doubt using examples is really revealing about luffy's strength, agility, etc. I suppose Oda used to make his heroes do what fitted well at the moment he drew the action, not really caring about how they should do better/worse/same in the upcoming arcs. One shouldn't look for references back there, I think. :happy:
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Excuse me? What is this "shounen law"? Are you saying all shounen are the same? If that's so, One Piece clearly isn't shounen, since it tends to deviate from any "genericism" in a host of different ways.
The collective grouping of stereotypical occurances that in general provide an accurate retelling of the manner in which certain common events play out in a specific genre is hereafter defined as Shonen Law. The law is not 100% for any singular series but is within statistical deviation for the major points.
1. Characters grow more powerful both through use and through training.
2. Characters grow more powerful through breakthroughs during combat.Both of those subsets apply to the manga one piece. And thus the statement shonen law is a perfectly valid one.
Using "shounen law" to define something as retarded as "improvement in strength" is utter bullcrack that only lazy fools would use in argument. If you're going to convince me the Straw Hats improved, show me an instance of the Straw Hats failing to do something earlier but managing to accomplish said feat later.
I'll give you two examples:
1. Zoro hearing the breath of steel.
2. Zoro developing his pound cannons.That's it; Zoro is the only character who has improved, and rightfully so, since as a fighter that's his primary job.
And this is a complete fallacy that only takes into account the most superficial and outstated advancements, neglecting the entire framework upon which the series is predicated and the actions of the characters such forth.
Um, what's with this fiction? Luffy had no trouble grabbing Kuro when he actually made the effort to do so, and even then that was Luffy's first experience with "super speed" characters; he followed Kuro fairly smoothly and beat him up quite soundly despite the speed advantage.
Since you have decided to do this the hard way, I will explain. IN one of his SbS's Oda explains that Kuro moves at the same speed as Soru, approximately, when he is using his shakushi. Furthermore he goes on to say that the technique is incomplete as he cannot direct it thus soru is overwhelmingly more powerful. Luffy at this point cannot se kuro and intercepts him after his attack. In the fight against Blueno he demonstrates the abilty to intercept soru midflight. Then Blueno comments that he has assimilated the rokushiki technique soru and is using it, and.. and this is the important part… has developed the body to withstand it.
The implications of this are quite simple. TO be able to track Soru/move through soru a certain level of wel for lack of a better word, fitness is required. Against Kuro Luffy lacked that. Against Coby it wasn't even worth half a breath.
During Luffy v. Blueno, Luffy did exactly the same; he kept up with Soru (but did not equal it) enough to fight an even fight with Blueno until he used Gear 2.
With what? Gears? Of course Gear 2/3 Luffy would crush Kuro/Arlong/Krieg. But normal Luffy? Assuming Luffy was actually going in for a rematch, he'd probably fare just as well as when he did the first time.
This is a fantasy and I don't mind labeling it so. If you think that kuro/Kreig/arlong are more potent than a well ensonced grand line pirate like Bellamy you are fooling yourself.
Remember that normal Luffy could break Krieg's thick armour, which was made of incredibly hard steel, but he couldn't break the door into the tunnel under Enies Lobby; does that mean East Blue Luffy > Enies Lobby Luffy???
I cannot believe that you would be so silly as to throw this at me and expect me to glaze over the incredibly incorrect logical associations.
1. Luffy broke 2-4 inches of Kreigs armor and it took him multiple blows.
2. The door was a foot or more thick and reinforced by some unknown locking mechanism.From basic physics I can tell you that breakign something 2 inch thick is more than twice as hard as breakign somethign 2 inches thick. From basic logic I can give you a host of reasons why Luffy would want to get through quickly, from testing his power to sheer speed issues. Its quite possible that he could have batter through the door but didn't have the time to waste on it.
Of course not. They're exactly the same, except the latter has more techniques and experience. That's what allowed Luffy to catch Koby, not because he was strong; he could predict how Koby was going to attack and caught him off guard. That has nothing to do with strength/speed/agility gained since East Blue.
Technique and expierience….. so suddenly the physical limit of the body in the perception of a high velocity attack is technique.
You are wrong, absolutely and completely and I don't understand how you have managed to come to this place. Technique and expierience are part of overall combat prowess but a large portion of the potency of the big three comes from their superhuman physiques. Nami, Usopp and to a lesser degree Chopper might have such a progress, but that is a complete fantasy for the major characters, especially luffy for whom tere is such abundant evidence to the contrary.
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The collective grouping of stereotypical occurances that in general provide an accurate retelling of the manner in which certain common events play out in a specific genre is hereafter defined as Shonen Law. The law is not 100% for any singular series but is within statistical deviation for the major points.
1. Characters grow more powerful both through use and through training.
2. Characters grow more powerful through breakthroughs during combat.Both of those subsets apply to the manga one piece. And thus the statement shonen law is a perfectly valid one.
Where did you pull that law out of? The great thing about Oda is that he tries to avoid such "stereotypical occurances" as you so obliquely put it. As such, there is no single measurement of fighting capability in from which to measure growth or to compare characters.
I think we are suffering from a problem of semantics. Does strength=ability to kick someone's ass or does strength= how heavy of a rock you can lift.
Everyone agrees that with his new techniques can kick more ass than before. But Terek has a point that luffy's ability to lift heavy objects, punch through things, speed of movement, etc has not shown significant improvement.
Examples:
He could destroy a building as easily in arlong park as he could in W7.
He could kick through crowds of weak fighters as easily against morgan's thralls as he did in Enies Lobby.
His breaking of Kuro's ship in two is comparable to any other act of amazing strength he has shown.In my opinion, luffy's main example of improvement is his awareness of threats during fights. There were several occasions in his early fights where enemies caught him off guard and he only avoided death through dumbluck. Now he predicts enemy movements and counter attacks before they've even moved. His mental game has improved by leaps and bounds. Terek's right though, his physical prowess hasn't shown any significant improvement, possibly because his early fights never showed any limits to his physical ability.
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Off hand how some of the characters have improved in purely physical terms:
Luffy:
1. Luffy was near his limit when breaking through Krieg's armor then we fast forward to Water 7 where he breaks through the even thicker armor of a ship dismantler with a single attack.2. Zoro was straining to lift Luffy's stone cage when fighting against Buggy in east blue. Fast forward to Alabasta and Zoro is able to lift a quarter of a building and throw it at his opponent.
3. Nami managed to get stuck at the bottom of the hill at Ussop's village. Fast forward to the end of Arlong and she is able to jump to the ship from shore. It's a far smaller improvement than the others but it is there.
4. Finally the big one which is also a Luffy moment. Luffy lifts the gold ball. The roughly 1 meter radius ball of solid gold Enel put on him. That thing should have weighed roughly 90 tons. There is just no way Luffy could have lifted that much weight at the start of the series.
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I still have a hard time to believe that some people here are serious, of course luffy has become stronger.
Against Kuro he could barely see him when Kuro was using that… fast attack (do not know the name, read that in swedish) but later he could use soru which is just as fast. Then compare the punch against Bellamy to the little he could do in the first chapters.
Now, lets say he has grown about as much as you doubters say, how long will it take for him to beat Shanks/cut the sky? Because he will, he will cut the sky.
Nothing important happened today.
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"Barely see him?" Luffy grabs him without any effort at all:
http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav-3/volume5.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=965
Luffy's reaction time is flawless. If he had hesitated even for a second, Kuro would have gotten away.
Bellamy was weak physically, but he was fast. That's why he could own other pirates with his Bane Bane no Mi. The thing was, he had little experience with his powers, or he could have easily coiled his face to absorb any blows that Luffy threw at him, much like an impact dial. Luffy was able to counter his speed and that was his downfall.
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@was_fired:
4. Finally the big one which is also a Luffy moment. Luffy lifts the gold ball. The roughly 1 meter radius ball of solid gold Enel put on him. That thing should have weighed roughly 90 tons. There is just no way Luffy could have lifted that much weight at the start of the series.
Why not? When did luffy fail at lifting a similarly heavy object previous to this? I think it makes sense that we never saw him test his strength early on. If luffy had shown the limits of his physical prowess earlier in the series, fights like crocodile and don krieg would have been anticlimactic.
And in regards breaking armor, krieg's was fairly obviously fancier than the shipbuilder's. It took luffy roughly the same amount of effort (pre-gears) to break through both tekkai and krieg's armor. There's no other good method to compare the two, but it is atleast arguable that they shared similar defensive power.
Also, I agree that Zoro has gotten much much stronger physically. He's been training constantly after all. None of the other mugiwara have trained physically.
Nami's jump vs slip and slide hill? They were 1 week apart for pete's sake, during which time she never trained, fought or did anything worthy of mention except stealing the ship. The very manner in which she beat calipha shows that she requires ZERO physical strength to use her fighting techniques. Calipha drained all her strength and she wasn't affected because she never had any to begin with.
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True, the Nami one was a bad example since she has developed very little over the course of the series compared to Luffy and Zoro. As for how we know that Luffy couldn't lift that much weight earlier he was only able to lift tear of the figure head of Kuro's ship when his strength was enchanced via hypnotism. 90 tons of oak would take up roughly 4200 cubic feet which would result in a figure head that was something like 5ft wide, 2ft thick, and 418ft long. That's a lot bigger than what Kuro's ship had and I take that as a pretty obvious sign that his strength has increased.
Now I love the fact that One Piece has no such thing as a definite power level. Nothing in it provides a fixed measure of fighting ability. We have indicators which are often highly flawed (bounties and doriki) but until recently there was no way to gauge how a character's power changed. Even now there is only one specifically gear 1 (normal) luffy vs gear 2 since he gets stronger and faster in gear 2 and even then Luffy has issues with stamina while in gear 2 making it an interesting move as opposed to "you win" move.
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It doesn't matter how strong or fast Luffy is, he can't touch Crocodile without some kind of liquid. So he would still present a problem. He took Enel down easily. If he hadn't melted that golden ball to Luffy's arm and knocked him off the Maxim, he would have defeated him there.
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Technique. If Luffy was really all that with strength/speed, he wouldn't have needed the Gears, now would he?
He learned Soru. This means he's gotten faster. His Hits are more powerdul in Gear two.This means he's gotten Stronger.
It'd seem to me that I am right and you are not.
atleast on his personal attributes. And, you ARE right as far as the DF Mastery goes. -
Bellamy > Arlong
Luffy 1 Hit KO'd Bellamy, and he didn't do that to arlong.
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I didn't read many comments, but I'm gonna have to chalk it up to experience. Luffy's probably gotten a bit stronger physically, but remember that there was a point where he busted out five "new" moves in each fight, and when you look back to Arlong, he wasn't all that sharp.
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In short, Luffy has improved so much that if he were to fight Crocodile again he could beat him even under that '3-minute limit' thing.
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Whats with all these bloody "improved?" threads?! Seesh…I guess its end of year behavior tho.
As for Luffy, I don't think its so much that he improved as his devil fruit powers allows him endless possibilities.
But of course, there is the gears..
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Luffy is stronger physically, but not so much stronger I think than he was at the start. Maybe 2x stronger. But if he's twice as strong, twice as fast, etc. than that's a whole different fighter.
Also his arsenal of moves has increased dramatically as well, including stronger attacks. Where he would have been doing a pistol at the start, now he has bazooka and gatling. So some of the strength increases are not due to his physical strength actually increasing, so much as his ability to use his DF being continually refined.
I'm saying his physical power at base is probably roughly 2-3x greater than it was at the very start, with it being further enhanced by moves like gatling and bazooka, and again further enhanced by the gears with the "jet" and "giant" attacks. Also, some of his increased fighting prowess imo simply comes from experience. The more he fights, the better his reflexes and intuition get, regardless of any attribute increases.
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Well Luffy increased PHYSICALLY, but so did everyone else. I think Zoro improved the most.
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In short, Luffy has improved so much that if he were to fight Crocodile again he could beat him even under that '3-minute limit' thing.
I like the fact that people assume if there was a rematch that Crocodile would just let Luffy get to water or fall for the "blood" gag again. I doubt Crocodile is an idiot who can't learn from his mistakes.
With no moisture even with Gear 2 or 3 Crocodile stiil owns him.
I'm not sure that we've been shown definitive proof that Luffy has gotten physically stronger since the early arcs. I mean from chapter 30 he was ripping out the stem from Kuro's pirate ship. And as someone already stated he broke through Kreig's unbelievably hard armor with his fist early on. He's been monstrously strong from the begining. I'm not sold on the fact that his strength has increased.
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To Terek: You might have a case for speed and strength.
but his endurance had to go up. All the fighting and working out had to increase his endurance, that is just natural.
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I'll give you two examples:
1. Zoro hearing the breath of steel.
2. Zoro developing his pound cannons.That's it; Zoro is the only character who has improved, and rightfully so, since as a fighter that's his primary job.
Although Zoro's "hearing the breath of life" would allow him to cut(or not cut) anything he wanted, it doesnt make him any stronger physically. It gives him an advantage like Luffy gets with Gears. Same applies with pound cannons.
What I outlined is utterly fundamental, much more verifiable that silly normative "feelings" or "impressions"; to clarify for the simple minded, "outlets" mean reference points. "If one has the strength to throw boulders, how can one demonstrate said strength without a boulder to throw?
Saying Luffy hasnt improved strengthwise is like not giving him a chance to throw the boulder in the first place. Im not saying he has improved, but you havent given much proof that he hasn't.
PS: tone down with the insults. They dont make your statement any more right.
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