hey, maybe he'll change it back in the tankobons… who knows...
Whitebeard's Flag to Be Changed?! (Ch. 434 Tidbit)
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@Fire Fist:
Dragonball is a prime example. Toriyama isn't dead yet, but Dragonball is. Dragonball GT was not drawn, edited, or even approved by him in any way, shape or form. It was simply created for the money. SSJ4, Golden Oozaru, Bebe, Dr. Mu… All of that was completely created by Toei in an attempt to cash in on the popularity. And guess what? It actually worked.
I'm surprised Greg hasn't come in yet to link you to the page on his site, but I'll just say that you have no idea what you're talking about.
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@Le:
You're facing Political Correctness. Go figure.
The same thing happend in Naruto, with Neiji's seal on his forehead.
I dont believe its stupid. Because that is a touchy subject and that symbol has recently been associated with genocide.
You're facing ignorance, not political correctness.
Take a loot at the "Croix Gammée": http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix_gamm%C3%A9e
(Extra info @ Svastika: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svastika)WB flag is the opposite.
So once again, we're facing ignorance. People doesn't even now what do their "fear" look like. This is the same problem with Bleach/Ban Kai (which is write with a reverse-svastika).
Gamabounta
PS: thanks for the information BF
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So..One Piece can be ripped from Odas grasp and be given to someone else to continue how he pleases and he isn't able to do shit? ….fuck japan, and if the same thing happens here, fuck business period.
"If the same thing happens in here?" Dude, It's been happening a long time. This is exponentially more common in the US. That's why it didn't surprise me until Greg pointed out that it's not common in Japan.
http://www.thegrandline.com/jp2006/mapono.jpg
Either I'm in Nazi Germany or a place with a fuckload of temples. You be the judge. Look how common the mark is dudes. Changing it makes NO SENSE in Japan.
Point taken.
I can only imagine it's for the international market or to avoid offending foreigners. Which brings up a great post from Media….
Only thing I can say positively about that is at least it shows that OP has a pretty strong international following compared to some other titles.
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Well it sucks that Oda decided to change the symbol, but it's his decision not to cause people to misinterpret his work. In one light it may be a great decision, as we won't have to worry about hoards of angry parents assuming One Piece is a new Nazi training revolution of some sort.
But I wish Oda hadn't changed it. It was really cool to see a symbol associated with such pain and sadness in the past be represented by something else. Yes, in this case it is pirates, but it's a comic of fictional pirates. If I hadn't learned what the symbol meant aside from the swastika from reading the manga, I'd still associate the symbol with the Nazi party. Now I see it in a different light. I wish more of the world could have seen it like that.
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You're facing ignorance, not political correctness.
In the end, you have to remember that most non-south and south-east asian people have almost no need to learn about Buddhism or Hinduism or Shintoism. Can you blame them? Not really. It's not their fault if these things don't interest them. Igorance is a bitch, but at least it isn't malicious, and you know that the manji and swastika won't be eliminated from the world. Don't let it bug you out too much.
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So I guess Ace is going to have to have the tattoo on his back redone…sucks for him.
As much as I do think that it should stay, in some ways I do kind of see where it needs to be changed. Having grown up in the southern United States, anything with white hoods and one too many "k"'s only brings memories of hate and prejudice. If by coincidence some childrens writer in a foreign country publishes a story about a little boy whose initials are KKK and likes ghosts, as unintentional as it is, it may still offend some people. Do they have a right to be offended? Yes and no. Yes because, if they were involved some how with whatever the symbol stood for, it is representing itself again, albeit a new identity. No because it is unintentional and the world will never always be pleased.
I personally feel that the second has greater priority than the former, but that is just my opinion.
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The best way to heal old wounds to to look at them and accept its in the past… The thing with nazis is that no one wants to let it go. It was that big a impact on humanity, it showed us mankinds true capablities our darkest shadows... Not many Germans were aware of what was going on, a lot of the truth didn't get out.
But its what... 50+ years since then, people won't let it go. Its in the past, so long as we don't go back there, who cares if a symbol is used afterall its not the symbol thats bad, its the people who put their beliefs to it that is wrong. The Nazi's could have used any symbol and gotten the same treatment I think...
Besides, Whitebeard's not even using the same symbol. I think the whole Manji/swastika business is stupid... The Manji symbol (or something like it) actually isn't just linked to asia, the symbol has actually been found all over the world in one form or another over the centuries. From Native America Indians to Europe.
Oh well... We probabely won't even notice the change after a while.
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I have no Idea why you guys don't like this change. It is very very small. I myself don't care. It would've been edited in the anime anyways. This just gives us one less edit.
I bet that symbol will get replaced by something else in japan. We have to face that most of the world hates that symbol. Oda hates it himself appearently.
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I've always like the anime version better, yet I have three points to note:
1. Oda is getting influenced by Shueisha, which is very sad.
2. Japan is getting influenced by Facist America, which is even more sad.
3. [Insert VIZ Media bashing here]Emphasis on #2…
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Hellsing flaunts that symbol everwhere uncovered….hmmmm
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Toriyama isn't dead yet, but Dragonball is. Dragonball GT was not drawn, edited, or even approved by him in any way, shape or form. It was simply created for the money. SSJ4, Golden Oozaru, Bebe, Dr. Mu… All of that was completely created by Toei in an attempt to cash in on the popularity. And guess what? It actually worked.
I'm surprised Greg hasn't come in yet to link you to the page on his site, but I'll just say that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Sorry dude, time difference and whatnot. >_<
Now then:
http://www.thegrandline.com/dbzinfo/toriyamafinale.html
BAM!
And for the record, it really didn't work. In fact the series was received so poorly that it was planned to be cancelled earlier on. It ultimately only ran through the final cycle to coincide with the release of Final Bout.
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Rofl… Fire Fist keeps on getting pwnd left and right on these boards. Hahaha.
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Not quite. That interview states that he had little input into it. A few character designs and that's it.
Even if it was poorly recieved, it doesn't change the fact that it was purely for monetary interests. As long as income exceeds production costs, it's a win for the company.
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If the story get passed to someone else, it'll be like Star Trek TOS. When season 3 started, Gene Roddenberry left (Athought he was little invouled in the third season) the production to someone else and season 3 was an "turd" season.
Same will happen to One Piece if it get passed to someone else.
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Not quite. That interview states that he had little input into it. A few character designs and that's it.
What were you reading?
I check the story that Toei Pictures has created, and I offer some advice to them.
And my personal favorite:
If it was this kind of story I'd want to continue the serial manga
And this is pretty good too:
Toriyama: YES! I do recommend it. As a regular viewer I too will enjoy it.
The ragging on GT train is tired and old. If you don't like it, that's cool, but it's not the picture you paint. One where DB was 'ripped from the loving arms of AT and turned into a vicious and souless product to create millions and billions of yen for Toei execs! Nyaahahahahahaha!'.
Toriyama played a part in it and even supported it. Get over it and move on.
As long as income exceeds production costs, it's a win for the company.
Income for what exactly? Super Power desks? The completed comic book? The shitty Final Bout. The DVDs which wouldn't come out until almost a decade later? The commercials for tamagotchi that were on every other kids show?
If anything DB is being 'whored' now more than ever what with it being done and finished so many years ago without even so much as a celebratory film and nothing but a flood of key chains, anime books and DVDs that should have been released a long time ago.
Man, sorry this is so off-topic. I really am. It just drives me nuts when people drive GT into the ground as being this 'evil creation perverted by Toei that Toriyama didn't even touch' when Toriyama himself was totally cool with it. Sorry, end rant. Rebuttals = teh lame but will be dealt with in PM if needed.
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Fire Fist Ace demonstrates his abilities to make poorly scaled sprites his avatar and not read.
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Burn. Ouch Fire Fist, they are pwning you.
Will Fire Fist respond?, Will he get vengeance?. Find out on the next episode of APForums Z. cue generic J-pop theme
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The "Dragon ball" name died when freiza, and most of red ribbon did
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Methinks he was just being polite.
I read the article and yes, I did see his enthusiasm, but then again, Akira Toriyama is a very easygoing individual. Look at Dr. Slump. Anyone who can draw a manga and make it still popular 22 years later has quite a bit of talent. He's no Leiji Matsumoto, but he does have a way with manga and a very open personality.
I see your point though. Okay, I was wrong. He did have input into it.
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I wanted to know if it had some connection to Whitebeard's beliefs or strength.
Even if that's the case, it's not like the cross design totally omits any indication of Whitebeard's personality; the cross is significantly different from the normal crossbone type flag we've been seeing a lot of on lesser pirates.
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hi,
a really interesting thread, artists rights and misunderstanding of religious symbols.religion first,
i was brought up in a jewish-ish family in the 60's that practiced buddhism and studied various forms of yoga and meditation. i was told we were "unitarian." dang hippy parents and grandparents,
in 1973 i got into very bad trouble at school for drawing "swastikas" actually manji. i was in 3rd grade.
my jewish teacher took my drawings and me to the front of the class and lectured us on the holocaust and the severity of my actions. yeesh.
i told her that my family had also been touched by the holocaust, and that this had nothing to do with that.
she in no way would listen to me that it had both a different orientaion and rotational direction and that it meant something different in a non-european culture. heck, the navajo use the symbol as well. i don't think there are many cultures that develop art and decoration that don't use some form of it. they even called my parents. my mom had to repeat my explantions so i could go back to class. this was in a public school in los angeles.
my point being, plenty of ignorance and lack of care for learning any thing
that different or subtle. also, that people are very sensitive and may act out with out fully understanding what they are reacting to.note: owing the open attitudes in my growing up, i was the 1st person in my family for 2 or 3 generations to ask to go to hebrew school, we were in no way very releigious. i ended up getting kicked out because i questioned their stipulations on same-"race", same-"religion" marriages.
to me that sounded similar to forced breeding programs. i strangely thought people should marry for love.
i have always felt if we couldn't see color and could only see temperature, some of us would still think there was something wrong the the "warmies" or "coldies."
if aliens came down and started inter-marrying with us, then maybe some folks would worry more about the aliens than the humans who reflected different colors. we all transmit and genrate about the same energy, although those of us who are warmer put out more red and infrared than those of us who are cooler. see boltzmann's law.as to the question of artist's rights:
this is a long time battle between creatives and the capital or publisher's.
most people sign deals when they have no fame or access to any other way of having their work published or the clout to sing any other deal.
they sign away ownership for the chance to work, earn and be creative.
there are exceptions, but they are rarer than professional athletes.
the numbers in comics are particularly poor for creator owned content.
the guys who created superman finally got credit and a pension when a group of supportive artists threatened to go public with the info of their shabby treatment by the people who owned their content and just prior to the release of the movie with chris reeves, so that some cash or face was onthe line. i think of comic artists as sort of like being share-croppers with a chance of late recognition and reward. the big returns return to the capital.anyways, no reason to dis-respect Oda. it is a sign of the potential earning power of the one-piece franchise that i beieve these changes are being asked for.
also i would bet if he signed another contract, his success may allow him more control, maybe like a successful film director. although, the publishers still control distribution, so will always have a final trump. retaining control usually is more important than immediate cash flow, as long as ya aint hungry or responsible for taking of someone else's needs, like a family or something.i can talk about artist's rights for a long time. changes have always come slowly and usually when a publisher wants the content so badly that they have to agree to the terms. or an independent has to show an alternate path of revenue to allow new forms of commerce.
rock on with this great board,
flyingeye -
Even if that's the case, it's not like the cross design totally omits any indication of Whitebeard's personality; the cross is significantly different from the normal crossbone type flag we've been seeing a lot of on lesser pirates.
Well that's not my big complaint because (I think I touched on this back in my first or second post) Oda's good enough to bring in any significance he wanted it to have (if any) from the start. So we really don't have anything to be concerned about, it just sucks that it's no longer there. But that's life.
However, regarding how it differs from others, that's not my point. Given that he had a manji on his flag, how are we supposed to take that?
I HATE HATE HATE putting thoughts or words into Oda's work but given what Oda has said about pirate flags and his research into them, he knows what he's doing. That said, he drew the manji for a purpose, but what purpose? Is it to strike fear into his adversaries? Is it saying that when they see that mark they should make their peace or face the consequences? We know that was the case of the hourglass in Krieg's flag.
In turn does this say something about Whitebeard's personality? A manji is significantly different than a cross. Even if it's different, the nuances COULD be quite different.
BUT BUT BUT!!!!! Like I said, all of that is fan speculation.
Knowing Oda we will have a FULL explanation in an SBS!!!
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Is it even confirmed that Oda is indeed changing the design away from a manji?
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If that quote on the first page is accurate, yes.
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I guess all we can do is wait till the chapter comes out, to think Oda is gonna have to change something from his own vision.
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I guess all we can do is wait till the chapter comes out, to think Oda is gonna have to change something from his own vision.
Something tells me that this isn't the first time Oda was forced to change something. I don't have any actual evidence, but something makes the think this has happend to Oda before.
Brawl FC: 3823 8204 8139
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I think it's crap.
Being of German descent, and having a slight cultural understanding of Asia, I think that blows. People have to grow up and learn of the use of symbols instead of being creeps about it.
An American motor hotel in the early 40's had tee-pee houses to mimic the india houses of last century. Each had a mangji at top painted to the 'buffalo hide' and some wise ass ignoramuses burnt the place down because they believed the park was run by nazis.
I wonder if they'd burn down all the temples in Asia if they saw the symbol on everything. Asian nazis.
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I´d love to know what others modifications he was forced to make…
PS: I´m redrawing every manji in may manga... (just kidding... well, maybe not).
:wassat:
Rebel Marines are the coolest ! !
Thx to psolaras for the avatar and sig (I owe you this man).
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i just hope they put an explanation Thats canonical, to the storyline
like, updated flag, or it burned or something
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There would be no reason for that, it'll either be different or not, nothing will be said about it.
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There would be no reason for that, it'll either be different or not, nothing will be said about it.
That will be hilarious to joke about
"whitebeard's ship"
"Hey carl whatcha looking at?"
"the flag..i just can't put my finger on it"
"well now that you mention it..there is something strange about it."
"Hey wasn't it a <cue random="" event="" cutting="" off="" all="" conversation="">Oh the dubbing/Fanart possibilities</cue> -
Wow…
One Piece should've maintained its theme as a pirate manga, as it prizes the main symbol of skull and bone which is also a symbol of rebel, it should not have surrendered on the manji name-clearing movement to commercial claims.Manji was there since the prehistoric time, because it was only a geometrical simplification of galactical/universal/astronomic movement; the image of great creational energy.
And I wonder why there is no complain on christian cross decorated all over the manga. Crosses are originally an tool for massacre used by Roman soldiers bashing everyone offending them. It dearly managed to became a symbol of peace and love with the influence of Jesus's sacrifice.
But then it was a symbol carried on through the imperialism 'for God and Gold and Glory'; there were more massacre under the name of the cross.
While that very time also marked the real Great Pirate Age, most of the bluffing pirate character adorn themself with cross accessories: which made way to the fictional 21century pirates accessories. -
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Symbolique.jpg
Guys,
I would like to point out that the Nazi symbol is the adding of 2 Ss together.
While as the symbol used by ODA (and thus white beard) is a Buddhist symbol of reincarnation.
It is pretty common for people in China and my country (Vietnam) to use that symbol on their graves and it is a reverse of the Nazi symbol (which should be 2 Ss) -
Dudes. Oda's opinion or not, people can sue him on that subject and win. I'm pretty sure people mentioned it to him, or even [not really likely, but there are twisted people] threaten him.
I'm not saying that's what happened for sure, but there is a reality like that.
Even so, if anyone stops/stopped/will stop reading OP because of that flag, he can eat shit for all I care. It's a flag, people, a flag. Just don't mind it, there are reasons for.. Alot of things.PS: No offence for anyone that took my "hard" words or something.
PS2: Also, I think Oda DID make a mistake if he planned this a little before. Jump could release that idea to the public earlier so these kind of conversations won't ruin such a good start for an arc. -
It is also the budhist symble for "Ban" right? Not necesarilly a swatstika(sp?)
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No it is not.
Like I said, the one in the flag is Buddhist sign. Whereas the Swatstika is 2 Ss (inverted to the Buddhist sign)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Symbolique.jpgThey are 2 different signs people.
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Okay, folks, you asked for this…
From the "Pokemon Critism" page on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_and_criticism_of_Pok%C3%A9mon
"The Pokémon trading card game has been criticized by members of the Jewish community for its use of the swastika[[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources"]citation needed], the most widely known symbol of Nazism in the West, which they hold is inappropriate for children’s toys. Nintendo says that this is a matter of cultural misunderstanding, as the swastika and a similar symbol, the manji, have been used in East Asian cultures as a symbol for “good fortune” by the Hindu religion for thousands of years. Even today in Japan, the swastika is not necessarily associated with Nazism, and most maps not only in Japan but also in Korea and Taiwan use a small clockwise upright swastikas, manji, to indicate the location of Buddhist temples. Moreover, Buddhist and folklore artifacts frequently bear swastika ornaments; a tiling of interwoven tilted swastikas is commonly seen in the Seoul subway system.
The manji was shown only on a Japanese version card and was excluded from the North American release. However, these Jewish groups attacked the Japanese version distributed in the U.S. by unauthorized import. As a result of this controversy Nintendo stopped using this symbol even in the Japanese version.[3] This raised a public backlash in Japan for being intolerant towards the symbols of the Buddhist religion for the sake of avoiding controversy."
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This is really bull. Someday I tell you, I'm gonna sue the Nazis and any Nazi or anti-Nazi related organization to take back the BAN symbol. Anyone who relate the BAN symbol to the swastika will have to pay me.
I'm gonna sue Oxford dictionary if they print the swastika symbol and don't explain the differences between them.
I hope that will end the madness.Master Yoda: "Believe in the Force"
Master Oda: "I leave it all in One Piece"
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This is really bull. Someday I tell you, I'm gonna sue the Nazis and any Nazi or anti-Nazi related organization to take back the BAN symbol. Anyone who relate the BAN symbol to the swastika will have to pay me.
I'm gonna sue Oxford dictionary if they print the swastika symbol and don't explain the differences between them.
I hope that will end the madness.You will have one lucky lawyer if you carry out these plans.
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Either I'm in Nazi Germany or a place with a fuckload of temples. You be the judge. Look how common the mark is dudes. Changing it makes NO SENSE in Japan.
@Master:
Why is everyone so paranoid over these kinds of things? Shueisha and Oda are extremely overreacting to a problem that isn't there, imo. If anything, Buddhists and other peaceful groups who use the Manji as one of their symbols are the ones who ought to be offended that they're getting censored.
Japan has nothing to do with the Nazis, so why should they censor it?
Do you want the economic answer or the tin-foil hat answer?
Economic answer:
TIME Asia Magazine, Feb. 24, 2003Last December, Shueisha bought a 50% stake in Viz Communications. They would be just protecting the interests they have in the american market. Not that Viz cannot edit the panels anyway, but the ADL is strong in usa and they could blacklist it anyway for "misbehaving" outshore. Can you picture the american kids when the Whitebeard arc arrives? "Hey, did you know that in the Japanese version Whitebeard is a nazi? No way duuuude.". Not that I share that view I'm only stating what they would think/defend.Political/conspirational answer:
They just need to invade Japan with political correctness guys. They are preparing to end cultural differences, a homogeneous world is a world easier to market and a world in which different points of view won't appear (specially in relation to monetary systems and government models). When that de-facto "supranation" comes we will all need to be ready to be sensitive about the issues the elite is continually bringing to attention in order to control us, as somebody said earlier in this thread. How exactly they use these issues to control us is something I shouldn't talk about in this forum. Also, the particular case of the manji/svastica has the plus of contradiction; religious symbol or fascist symbol? If the japanese keep learning that that religious symbol is also a bad guys symbol who knows, maybe some children will grow up thinking that religion is bad, or if they assume that a religious symbol cannot be bad but can also be used by bad guys… that is the exquisite aroma of double-talk, also it helps to construct the belief in an accidental view of history. So yeah, I think that these "political correction" groups are lobbying all the world.Nuff said. Sorry for my english.
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I'm sure someone's mentioned it but hey…it's the internet, things get repeated
after we change the flag, just turn all the guns into walkie talkies...that way when sanji pointed a gun at robin, it was actually him being a gentleman and giving her a way to contact crocodile!
brilliant!
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Political Correctness is the one thing I can not stand, ok, well, it's up there at the top of my list with things like "idiots who think they are always right, act superior and think they are smart, when they are jsut living in denial"
Anyways, THis is just wrong. If anyone in Japan or knows Japanese, I recommend sending letters requesting it be changed back. I like the Manga version better than the Cross they put behind it in the Anime.
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This post is deleted!
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This might sound harsh but why should anyone care if this offends anyone. The "so called questionable" symbol is from the Buddhist religion which has been in existence for several thousand years and embedded into our culture for that same amount of time. Why should we as Asians have to change out culture because of a few people who find it offensive from an event that just happened in the last 50 years. Plus if anyone with any sort of common sense, before crying wolf, notice that both symbols are different from one another and with a very small amount of internet surfing abiltity can find the origins of them. Stop trying to appease a few people.
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This symbol 卍 is a religious symbol whereas the nazi book is clockwise. But ODA probably changed it for ignorant people like you who get offended…
@Battle:
Just a small nugget of info:
Oda has made an end of Jump (WSJ #50) comment. My interpertation of this or the gist of this from reading around is, that there was some general unhappiness/opposition to the mangji symbol 卍 (obviously which is generally assosiated with the Nazi party's swastika) being used in the original flag design.
So from my understanding the manga version, has been changed to the skull & crossbones anime version. I assume the changed ver. appears in Ch.434, and Oda has made this comment to clear any confusion.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/WhitebeardFlag2.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/23/Whitebeardflag.jpg/180px-Whitebeardflag.jpg
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That's the most amazing thing I've ever seen in these forums. I was actually saying that the change is a bad thing and apparently everybody got it wrong? How can you get that wrong?
"Banning manji because it's like an svastica is baaaaaaaaad." How's that?
What's the matter with you? Didn't anybody get it right? Or is it that only the teenagers are replying? Not that I care much now… feeling too old
PS: and why the heck do you keep on implying I don't know they are mirrored, didn't I clearly call them in the post manji and svastica? That's not the issue I was discussing, that's something everybody already knows and not even worth mentioning.
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Political Correctness is the one thing I can not stand, ok, well, it's up there at the top of my list with things like "idiots who think they are always right, act superior and think they are smart, when they are jsut living in denial"
But doesn't that apply to those who Complain AGAINST Political correctness?
Its just one giant Circle
person gets offended
Person gets way
person complains
person gets way
person complains about someone getting way
That said person gets wayAnd round AND round it goes…
makes me sad it does
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And round AND round it goes…
Doesn't seem to be going 'around' as much it is in a downward spiral.
What's the end result? We won't be able to say anything bad about anyone? You mean, like no criticism? You mean like not speaking one's mind? You mean like everyone everywhere is equal?
Scarrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
