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    Who is the final villain in One Piece? 2.0

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    • MrPecans
      MrPecans @Count Mario
      @Count Mario last edited by
      MrPecans
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      MrPecans
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      @Count:

      You could also counter that by saying Shanks' appearance in Chapter 1 in and of itself foreshadowed Blackbeard before the Marines' introduction one or two chapters later because of the scars in Shanks' design.

      Also, Blackbeard was memtioned by Drum citizens and Ace before the World Government was first hinted at as an entity during the end of Alabasta. Until then, we only knew about the Marines as a faction and little-to-nothing about the actual government they served under.

      I'm really just playing devils advocate here. I think the Marines =/ World Gov point is sort of weak though, because it stands to reason that a military faction would serve a government. I WANT Blackbeard as the ultimate baddie, because he is the very coolest One Piece villain.

      Favorite thing aside from One Piece is movies! Updated favorite films: The Passion of Joan of Arc / Alien / It's a Wonderful Life / Casablanca / One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest / The Apartment / Nights of Cabiria / Dr. Strangelove / All About Eve / Amadeus / Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

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      • Chrior
        Chrior
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        Yeah, Blackbeard's slow rise as the ultimate pirate and the anti-Luffy have already been well established for the greater part of the series. I would still put them as final villain material over the World Government which only began to be built up in Water 7 and whose true single boss has only been revealed right now, after over 900 chapters. That's why I'll wait to see where Oda wants to go with this Imu person and the whole build up of the government and void century, etc. before I begin calling foul on Imu.

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        • JDub
          JDub
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          Blackbeard as a character is easily one of, if not the most fleshed out and complex antagonist in the series. It's clear that Oda thought beyond "Luffy, but evil" and really committed to making him an interesting character. He's used Blackbeard (and his juxtaposition with Luffy) as a mouthpiece to explore 'freedom' and 'dreams', the two biggest ideas in One Piece. And that's not even getting into how he and Luffy are in direct competition for defining the era, if you're looking for plot reasons.

          Blackbeard is absolutely the final antagonist. His defeat is set up from his introduction as the thematic and emotional climax of the series. I'm doubtful Im and Luffy will even fight tbh.

          EDIT: Oda has clearly put the most thought into Blackbeard when it comes to how he's written his antagonists, let me put it like that. All you have to do is go back to his introduction on Jaya. That "Pirates' dreams will never end" chapter is one of the most important in the series.

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          • Johnny B. Decent
            Johnny B. Decent
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            Johnny B. Decent
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            This quote really sums it up:

            @Kaido:

            Yeah, the Gorosei have always felt like reactionary characters. Crocodile was removed as a Warlord? Replace him. People researching the Void Century? Kill them. They're working to protect a long-established balance; if I had to guess, Im is probably the mastermind behind that balance.

            The Gorosei/Im act strictly to keep things the way they are. They don't act, just react. In a word, they are almost static in their goals. Blackbeard, on the other hand is VERY actionary. He went from a no-name mook to one of the world's most powerful pirates in two years. And Im considers both he and Luffy the same level of threat.

            To put it bluntly, the WG is like a massive, but old tree, and Blackbeard is a wildfire.

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            • theackwardstation
              theackwardstation
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              theackwardstation
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              The World Goverment started to be built up way before Water 7.

              a) the system on top of which the WG rules was already being established since the beginning of the East Blue saga, when we could perceive the existence of an unified order that was beneath the surface, mostly because of institutions like the Marines, the Shichibukai and bounties, that later were tied together under the unbrella of the World Goverment.

              b) when we reread the very first chapter of One Piece with the context we learn from the rest of the series, we can see how it was already establishing the main concepts of the series: Roger and his inhirited will being passed to Luffy (the strawhat and the Golden Age of Pirates), which is directly linked to the One Piece (void century and stuff) and the matters concerning the current World Goverment, a dream that Roger couldn't accomplish and had to pass to the next generation.

              c) the first major saga in the Grand Line was against a Shichibukai, in which we first learned how the goverment hides the dirty under the carpet, and that's such an important subject that it is going to be one of the main themes of the present Reverie. During Alabasta, we were also introduced to the concepts of the Ancient Weapons, the Poneglyphs and the Void Century (that later we found out to be linked to the WG plotline).

              d) the World Goverment started to be a tangible institution exactly at Drum Island, when we had a glimpse at Mary Geoise and the Reverie. Later, at Jaya, we first saw the Gorousei.

              e) it's arguable that every arc in the Grand Line builds some kind of direct or indirect link to the World Goverment. Even sidestories like Skypiea introduced elements that will be further linked to the history of the world and the void century, like the shandians (allies of the Ancient Kingdom) and the moon people.

              f) the main storyline leads to the World Government, which has received much more focus and development than Blackbeard, it also has a much bigger impact in the world, it's much more powerful and it represents an ideology that better contrasts the concept of freedom envisioned by Luffy (his idea of King of Pirates).

              g) Blackbeard captured Ace. Akainu killed Ace.

              h) defeating the WG will be a collective catharsis envolving the entire world, settling major themes of the series and running issues from many plotlines throughout many sagas, including all current problems linked to Luffy's allies and friends, then it'll develop into the realization of the will of Roger and the Ancient Kingdom, something that comes from more than 800 years ago. On the other hand, defeating Blackbeard will… be satisfying.

              --- Update From New Post Merge ---

              @S.C.:

              The Gorosei/Im act strictly to keep things the way they are. They don't act, just react. In a word, they are almost static in their goals. Blackbeard, on the other hand is VERY actionary. He went from a no-name mook to one of the world's most powerful pirates in two years. And Im considers both he and Luffy the same level of threat.

              To put it bluntly, the WG is like a massive, but old tree, and Blackbeard is a wildfire.

              Two words: great cleansing.

              Johnny B. Decent BobLoblaw HeartOfDarkness 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • Johnny B. Decent
                Johnny B. Decent @theackwardstation
                @theackwardstation last edited by
                Johnny B. Decent
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                @theackwardstation:

                The World Goverment started to be built up way before Water 7.

                a) the system on top of which the WG rules was already being established since the beginning of the East Blue saga, when we could perceive the existence of an unified order that was beneath the surface, mostly because of institutions like the Marines, the Shichibukai and bounties, that later were tied together under the unbrella of the World Goverment.

                b) when we reread the very first chapter of One Piece with the context we learn from the rest of the series, we can see how it was already establishing the main concepts of the series: Roger and his inhirited will being passed to Luffy (the strawhat and the Golden Age of Pirates), which is directly linked to the One Piece (void century and stuff) and the matters concerning the current World Goverment, a dream that Roger couldn't accomplish and had to pass to the next generation.

                c) the first major saga in the Grand Line was against a Shichibukai, in which we first learned how the goverment hides the dirty under the carpet, and that's such an important subject that it is going to be one of the main themes of the present Reverie. During Alabasta, we were also introduced to the concepts of the Ancient Weapons, the Poneglyphs and the Void Century (that later we found out to be linked to the WG plotline).

                d) the World Goverment started to be a tangible institution exactly at Drum Island, when we had a glimpse at Mary Geoise and the Reverie. Later, at Jaya, we first saw the Gorousei.

                e) it's arguable that every arc in the Grand Line builds some kind of direct or indirect link to the World Goverment. Even sidestories like Skypiea introduced elements that will be further linked to the history of the world and the void century, like the shandians (allies of the Ancient Kingdom) and the moon people.

                f) the main storyline leads to the World Government, which has received much more focus and development than Blackbeard, it also has a much bigger impact in the world, it's much more powerful and it represents an ideology that better contrasts the concept of freedom envisioned by Luffy (his idea of King of Pirates).

                g) Blackbeard captured Ace. Akainu killed Ace.

                h) defeating the WG will be a collective catharsis envolving the entire world, settling major themes of the series and running issues from many plotlines throughout many sagas, including all current problems linked to Luffy's allies and friends, then it'll develop into the realization of the will of Roger and the Ancient Kingdom, something that comes from more than 800 years ago. On the other hand, defeating Blackbeard will… be satisfying.

                --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                Two words: great cleansing.

                Only took them like 700 chapters since they were first introduced to get off their asses.

                theackwardstation 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • theackwardstation
                  theackwardstation @Johnny B. Decent
                  @Johnny B. Decent last edited by
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                  @S.C.:

                  Only took them like 700 chapters since they were first introduced to get off their asses.

                  a) why does it matter when they become active if it plays the role you're demanding in the big picture anyway?

                  b) what's the problem of being reactive for the most part of the series if they are at the top of the world already? their job is to mantain their position and they were taking the necessary measures for that. Now that thet they feel threatened, the first thing they do is to promote the most extreme action ever, a great cleasing, probably something in the same vein of what happened during the Void Century.

                  c) at last, why does a villain have to be active instead of reactive? doesn't the behaviour of the villain depend on the narrative being told?

                  JDub 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • BobLoblaw
                    BobLoblaw @theackwardstation
                    @theackwardstation last edited by
                    BobLoblaw
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                    @theackwardstation:

                    The World Goverment started to be built up way before Water 7.

                    a) the system on top of which the WG rules was already being established since the beginning of the East Blue saga, when we could perceive the existence of an unified order that was beneath the surface, mostly because of institutions like the Marines, the Shichibukai and bounties, that later were tied together under the unbrella of the World Goverment.

                    b) when we reread the very first chapter of One Piece with the context we learn from the rest of the series, we can see how it was already establishing the main concepts of the series: Roger and his inhirited will being passed to Luffy (the strawhat and the Golden Age of Pirates), which is directly linked to the One Piece (void century and stuff) and the matters concerning the current World Goverment, a dream that Roger couldn't accomplish and had to pass to the next generation.

                    c) the first major saga in the Grand Line was against a Shichibukai, in which we first learned how the goverment hides the dirty under the carpet, and that's such an important subject that it is going to be one of the main themes of the present Reverie. During Alabasta, we were also introduced to the concepts of the Ancient Weapons, the Poneglyphs and the Void Century (that later we found out to be linked to the WG plotline).

                    d) the World Goverment started to be a tangible institution exactly at Drum Island, when we had a glimpse at Mary Geoise and the Reverie. Later, at Jaya, we first saw the Gorousei.

                    e) it's arguable that every arc in the Grand Line builds some kind of direct or indirect link to the World Goverment. Even sidestories like Skypiea introduced elements that will be further linked to the history of the world and the void century, like the shandians (allies of the Ancient Kingdom) and the moon people.

                    f) the main storyline leads to the World Government, which has received much more focus and development than Blackbeard, it also has a much bigger impact in the world, it's much more powerful and it represents an ideology that better contrasts the concept of freedom envisioned by Luffy (his idea of King of Pirates).

                    g) Blackbeard captured Ace. Akainu killed Ace.

                    h) defeating the WG will be a collective catharsis envolving the entire world, settling major themes of the series and running issues from many plotlines throughout many sagas, including all current problems linked to Luffy's allies and friends, then it'll develop into the realization of the will of Roger and the Ancient Kingdom, something that comes from more than 800 years ago. On the other hand, defeating Blackbeard will… be satisfying.

                    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                    Two words: great cleansing.

                    I agree with pretty much all of this. I find it a little puzzling that people are still on the BB train given how many arcs/characters tie directly into the WG. BB has only had an indirect impact on the SHs up til now while the WG (celestials, Marines, the Gorosei, etc.) has had a direct impact on the crew. Yeah. BB defeated Ace. So did WB. A marine admiral killed him. Just looking at the latest chapter, Im/Imu treated both Luffy and BB the same. Given the depiction of Shirshoshi's picture and Vivi's curiously intact picture, the likely "great cleansing" of one of Luffy's friends is going to impact the SHs way more than BB.

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                    • JDub
                      JDub @theackwardstation
                      @theackwardstation last edited by
                      JDub
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                      @theackwardstation:

                      a) why does it matter when they become active if it plays the role you're demanding in the big picture anyway?

                      b) what's the problem of being reactive for the most part of the series if they are at the top of the world already? their job is to mantain their position and they were taking the necessary measures for that. Now that thet they feel threatened, the first thing they do is to promote the most extreme action ever, a great cleasing, probably something in the same vein of what happened during the Void Century.

                      c) at last, why does a villain have to be active instead of reactive? doesn't the behaviour of the villain depend on the narrative being told?

                      a) Because the antagonist should be a driving force throughout the narrative. If they're supposed to be the main antagonist, the World Government only becoming active 3/4 of the way through the story is bad writing.

                      b) Because then what's Luffy's motivation to confront them? Luffy doesn't give a shit about the World Government, he has never gone out of his way to fuck with them. The involvement of the Marines/World Government is always circumstantial. Again, the protagonist's motivation for taking down the main antagonist should not come 3/4 of the way through the series. Compare that to Luffy's motivation to bring down Blackbeard, which has continued to grow since he entered the story.

                      c) See the above two answers

                      Also the World Government is a multifaceted organization with many moving parts and multiple key players. An antagonist is an individual. The only individual high up in the World Government that Luffy has any motivation to take down is Sakazuki, but we've seen at least six individuals who outrank him.

                      BobLoblaw theackwardstation 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • BobLoblaw
                        BobLoblaw @JDub
                        @JDub last edited by
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                        @JDub:

                        a) Because the antagonist should be a driving force throughout the narrative. If they're supposed to be the main antagonist, the World Government only becoming active 3/4 of the way through the story is bad writing.

                        How many manga have had the same antagonist be the driving force throughout the entire series? Only a fraction. There's almost always a bigger baddie that develops over the course of a series. Besides, BB is a pretty thin antagonist at this point since we only have brief looks into who he is and what motivates him.

                        b) Because then what's Luffy's motivation to confront them? Luffy doesn't give a shit about the World Government, he has never gone out of his way to fuck with them. The involvement of the Marines/World Government is always circumstantial. Again, the protagonist's motivation for taking down the main antagonist should not come 3/4 of the way through the series.

                        You're likely about to see more motivation now. The WG has attempted to stop Luffy at almost every turn (via the Marines). They called for the destruction of one of his nakama's home and tried to enslave one of his friends (see Charloss at Shabondy). There are a ton of other connections to all of their adventures as well. Just because Luffy hasn't said, "Fuck the WG" doesn't mean he's not opposed to it. Actually, he kinda did. Just look at what Sogeking did. That was his declaration of war.

                        c) See the above two answers

                        Also the World Government is a multifaceted organization with many moving parts and multiple key players. An antagonist is an individual. The only individual high up in the World Government that Luffy has any motivation to take down is Sakazuki, but we've seen at least six individuals who outrank him.

                        That's part of it. The five elders are probably stronger than the admirals and Im/Imu maybe even had that immortal surgery. That's all just speculation of course, but Luffy's allies won't come to his aid against BB. He's got a crew for that. His allies will be needed during the final war where it'll be Luffy and Co against Im/Imu, the Gorosei, the Marines, Vegapunk, and the WG allies.

                        JDub 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • L
                          Lord Monkey D.
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                          Nah still Blackbeard without a doubt.

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                          • JDub
                            JDub @BobLoblaw
                            @BobLoblaw last edited by
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                            @BobLoblaw:

                            How many manga have had the same antagonist be the driving force throughout the entire series? Only a fraction. There's almost always a bigger baddie that develops over the course of a series. Besides, BB is a pretty thin antagonist at this point since we only have brief looks into who he is and what motivates him.

                            That's not a fair comparison though. Oda knew when he started the manga how it was gonna end. He's had the final antagonist in mind from the beginning. Compared to similar series (namely Dragonball) One Piece is way more dedicated to its overarching plot in that the core story beats have been planned since the beginning and that plot has been carefully constructed throughout the series run. Oda isn't making this up as he goes like Toriyama did. It does not fit Oda's style as a writer to JUST NOW establish a villain and their motivations. This is the guy who name-dropped Jimbei nearly 500 chapters before we even saw him on screen.

                            You're likely about to see more motivation now. The WG has attempted to stop Luffy at almost every turn (via the Marines). They called for the destruction of one of his nakama's home and tried to enslave one of his friends (see Charloss at Shabondy). There are a ton of other connections to all of their adventures as well. Just because Luffy hasn't said, "Fuck the WG" doesn't mean he's not opposed to it. Actually, he kinda did. Just look at what Sogeking did. That was his declaration of war.

                            But those clearly have not built up to anything. There isn't a steady progression in his motivations. Luffy basically said "I don't give a fuck about the government, I'm just here for my friend" on Enies Lobby, and the only reason he declared war was because they were standing between him and Robin. The moment they escaped the Buster Call, he went right back to not caring about the government. If this was built up over time, we'd see Luffy become increasingly opposed to the government. But instead he's maintained his apathy. He only cares about the government as it pertains to him and his friends. He's consistently gone back to not caring the moment the situation gets resolved.

                            That's part of it. The five elders are probably stronger than the admirals and Im/Imu maybe even had that immortal surgery. That's all just speculation of course, but Luffy's allies won't come to his aid against BB. He's got a crew for that. His allies will be needed during the final war where it'll be Luffy and Co against Im/Imu, the Gorosei, the Marines, Vegapunk, and the WG allies.

                            Okay so two things
                            1. Blackbeard gonna be in that war too, as a third faction (out of probably, like, five or six factions)
                            2. Why does Luffy care about Im or the Gorosei at all?

                            None of that changes the fact that the "World Government" as an entity can not be the antagonist. An antagonist is a singular individual character. And even talking about the individuals within the government, Luffy has absolutely ZERO motivation to care about any of them right now. Where is the emotional conclusiveness of Luffy defeating Im, someone he's had NO interactions with? Someone he doesn't even know exists? Someone who leads an organization that he doesn't care about? Hell, I'd doubt he even knows the Gorosei exists considering Luffy isn't a very worldly person.

                            Luffy's not some hero destined to overthrow an oppressive government. He actively does not want to be a hero. He's just some punk kid who wants to be the best pirate. And the most powerful person standing in his way of doing that is Blackbeard.

                            BobLoblaw 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • BobLoblaw
                              BobLoblaw @JDub
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                              @JDub:

                              That's not a fair comparison though. Oda knew when he started the manga how it was gonna end. He's had the final antagonist in mind from the beginning. Compared to similar series (namely Dragonball) One Piece is way more dedicated to its overarching plot in that the core story beats have been planned since the beginning and that plot has been carefully constructed throughout the series run. Oda isn't making this up as he goes like Toriyama did. It does not fit Oda's style as a writer to JUST NOW establish a villain and their motivations. This is the guy who name-dropped Jimbei nearly 500 chapters before we even saw him on screen.

                              I don't doubt that he's had the entire story plotted out in his mind since the beginning. In terms of an overarching plot, the WG and it's connection to events has had the greatest impact on the story by far. Blackbeard literally accounts for about 0.001% of this manga. The WG and it's connection to arcs and characters is probably closer to 80%. Go back and look at the connections to the Marines, the shichibukai, the revolutionaries, Ace, Robin, Enies Lobby, Dressrosa, bounties, Shabondy, Fishman Island, etc. The argument that Oda is "just now" establishing the highest authority is irrelevant. The character was hinted at by Doflamingo a while ago and if people look close enough, there's probably something before that. Don't forget that Oda also "just now" mentioned an alliance between Kaido and Big Mom. Their captain/leader likely ties back to a title that Garp's had since the beginning.

                              But those clearly have not built up to anything. There isn't a steady progression in his motivations. Luffy basically said "I don't give a fuck about the government, I'm just here for my friend" on Enies Lobby, and the only reason he declared war was because they were standing between him and Robin. The moment they escaped the Buster Call, he went right back to not caring about the government. If this was built up over time, we'd see Luffy become increasingly opposed to the government. But instead he's maintained his apathy. He only cares about the government as it pertains to him and his friends. He's consistently gone back to not caring the moment the situation gets resolved.

                              That's where the story is going now. Look at the last chapter. One of Luffy's friend is likely about to be directly targeted by the WG. You said it yourself. "He only cares about the government as it pertains to him and his friends." Given where the story will be after Wano, it makes sense to start tying the WG directly to Luffy and the RA even more.

                              Okay so two things
                              1. Blackbeard gonna be in that war too, as a third faction (out of probably, like, five or six factions)
                              2. Why does Luffy care about Im or the Gorosei at all?

                              None of that changes the fact that the "World Government" as an entity can not be the antagonist. An antagonist is a singular individual character. And even talking about the individuals within the government, Luffy has absolutely ZERO motivation to care about any of them right now. Where is the emotional conclusiveness of Luffy defeating Im, someone he's had NO interactions with? Someone he doesn't even know exists? Someone who leads an organization that he doesn't care about? Hell, I'd doubt he even knows the Gorosei exists considering Luffy isn't a very worldly person.

                              There would be no reason for BB to be in the final war. OP is about dreams and wills and either his dream or Luffy's dream will end on raftel. Only one will obtain OP and become PK. The final war will only begin after OP is found. It wouldn't make sense for the final war to take place at raftel when we know the WG is based at Marie Geoise (next to the Marine HQ) and there has to be a final resolution to the void century and the WG. Like I said, Luffy will soon learn why he should care (after Wano) about the WG. There's nothing more sacred to him than his friends and one of them is about to be targeted. Look how far he went just for Robin.

                              Luffy's not some hero destined to overthrow an oppressive government. He actively does not want to be a hero. He's just some punk kid who wants to be the best pirate. And the most powerful person standing in his way of doing that is Blackbeard.

                              He may not be, but he is a person who will protect his friends and if that means taking down the entire WG, then so be it (with the help of his fleet, the RA, and his allies of course). Besides, if Borsalino is willing to single-handedly stop Kaido and Big Mom from meeting, then a Yonkou is still an admiral level pirate. He'll be Luffy's toughest test in the series to that point, but it doesn't mean he'll be the most powerful Luffy will ever face. Oda has plenty of time to establish a singular force behind the WG as the final villain, but we'll see.

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                              • D
                                DynamiteShikoku
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                                Anyone else think that Im and Gorosei are mere symbol and brain of WG and don't have any power?

                                They might be the last enemy to be destroyed but not the last one to be fought.

                                In my scenario, Luffy and BB will team up to defeat marines & wg/cp which try to prevent them from reaching raftel. Then Luffy and BB battle it out for One Piece. Then Luffy use whatever power/weapon/mechanism in raftel to destroy mariejois but there will be no more battle there. The final battle is luffy vs BB and luffy thrn just destroy mariejois as a wrap up (no battle as marine and wg/cp already got defeated).

                                Do you guys get my meaning? I'm not sure how to properly explain this.

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                                • HeartOfDarkness
                                  HeartOfDarkness @theackwardstation
                                  @theackwardstation last edited by
                                  HeartOfDarkness
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                                  @theackwardstation:

                                  …

                                  This falls apart when you ask the simple question: who is Luffy going to face? There isn't any real character in the WG that has the presence to be THE final obstacle for Luffy.

                                  Blackbeard is the main and final antagonist just like how Luffy is the main protagonist.

                                  And I do love how you completely ignore Blackbeard's status as the only D in the series that is evil AND has interest in history AND declared this age to be his age.

                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                  @BobLoblaw:

                                  Chronologically, One Piece has to be found before the final war can start. One Piece will be found on Raftel. The final war looks like it will take place at Marie Geoise. Looking at those two things, I can't see how Luffy and Blackbeard end up fighting over One Piece on Raftel while the final war against the WG goes on somewhere else.

                                  Yea let's ignore the existent of the ancient weapons and pretend they aren't going to play any real part in the final war.

                                  To me, it makes more sense for Luffy to defeat BB, obtain OP and the true history of the world, gather his alliance and head to Marie Geoise where Im, the Gorosei, the Marines, and all of the WG resources will be.

                                  Blackbeard is also part of the D clan and directly ties into the main plot lol.

                                  No way in hell BB going down before the end of the final war.

                                  Zhenja 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Takto
                                    Takto
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                                    Well, since Whitebeards last words, it was set in stone for me that One Piece does not end when the One Piece is found and Luffy became Pirate King. finding the OP and Luffys Pirate King Status equals the fall and defeat of Blackbeard.
                                    After that we go in a war against the World Goverment. And lets be honest, World Goverment did way more fucked up shit than Blackbeard can ever do. Especially when Im is responsible for the Void Century. So yeah, World Goverment + Im are the main Villains. Blackbeards team are saints compared to them.
                                    ALSO…King of the World>PirateKing>Yonkou

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                                    • Zhenja
                                      Zhenja @HeartOfDarkness
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                                      @HeartOfDarkness:

                                      Blackbeard is also part of the D clan and directly ties into the main plot lol.

                                      No way in hell BB going down before the end of the final war.

                                      But there are two "plots".
                                      1. Luffy's adventure to find One Piece
                                      2. Robin's search for the true history

                                      Both lead to Raftel but only the first one ends there, the second one has further consequences.
                                      Blackbeard is the main villain in the first plot. Since the Ds are those who fights for the world (as stated by Whitebeard) and Blackbeard gives a sh*t about it and Whitebeard said "you're not one of them" and we all know that Luffy is "the one" and that the war against the WG will start after One Piece is found, it's pretty clear that Blackbeard is only relevant until Luffy finds the One Piece.

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                                      • HeartOfDarkness
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                                        The D clan is related to void century which is related to the true history…..........

                                        One Piece only has one plot. Will of D, true history, Joy Boy, ancient weapons, ancient kingdom, void century etc...... are all part of that plot. There are no multiple plots.

                                        Blackbeard IS relevant to the overall plot. He is the ONLY villain that is from the D clan, and the only one that goes against the established nature/patterns of the D characters and is confirmed to have interest in history....something that is one of the biggest pillar of One Piece's story.

                                        The clues are all there. I don't know why people are being so oblivious to it.

                                        --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                        @Takto:

                                        Well, since Whitebeards last words, it was set in stone for me that One Piece does not end when the One Piece is found and Luffy became Pirate King. finding the OP and Luffys Pirate King Status equals the fall and defeat of Blackbeard.
                                        After that we go in a war against the World Goverment. And lets be honest, World Goverment did way more fucked up shit than Blackbeard can ever do. Especially when Im is responsible for the Void Century. So yeah, World Goverment + Im are the main Villains. Blackbeards team are saints compared to them.
                                        ALSO…King of the World>PirateKing>Yonkou

                                        And where are the ancient weapons in all of this?

                                        Pretty much the one question that can destroy this theory.

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                                        • Takto
                                          Takto @HeartOfDarkness
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                                          @HeartOfDarkness:

                                          And where are the ancient weapons in all of this?

                                          Pretty much the one question that can destroy this theory.

                                          Well, Poseidon is with Luffy at the end, Franky has the Blueprint for Pluton in his Head and Uranus is not known. Ancient Weapons are there to up the chances against the final boss.
                                          I dont know if you guys know how much forces and how powerful the forces are behind the Goverment and Im. Bleackbeards crew in comparison is a joke…couple of fleas

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                                          • HeartOfDarkness
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                                            There are three ancient weapons. And the final war will have three sides; Luffy, Blackbeard, and WG.

                                            Put the two and two together.

                                            Also this:

                                            !

                                            Sure do seems like WG doesn't feel threatened by BB…..

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                                            • Takto
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                                              Well it can go in many directions. It depends on Oda which route we take. It would work in any direction. Blackbeard was established pretty early but the World Goverment too.
                                              Since Oda presented hints he can also go with us to space and let us fight the creator of everything. There is no limit for him since there are hints

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                                              • Zhenja
                                                Zhenja @HeartOfDarkness
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                                                @HeartOfDarkness:

                                                The D clan is related to void century which is related to the true history…..........

                                                One Piece only has one plot. Will of D, true history, Joy Boy, ancient weapons, ancient kingdom, void century etc...... are all part of that plot. There are no multiple plots.

                                                At this moment the Will of D only indicates who will change the world, and it's Luffy. How can you list all those things and still say there is only one plot? The main protagonist (Luffy) has absolutely no clue about any of those things, and he doesn't care about it at all, yet. Luffy just wants to find the One piece, be the Pirate King and be free. The biggest threat to his freedom is the WG not Blackbeard. After he gets One Piece and realizes what he really needs to do to be free, that's where the true history, the ancient kingdom, the weapons, the will of D gets really relevant.

                                                Maybe I should have said plot part 1&2 instead of plot 1&2. So part 1 is finding the One Piece and part 2 is change the world and fight for the freedom (the dawn of the world).

                                                @HeartOfDarkness:

                                                Blackbeard IS relevant to the overall plot. He is the ONLY villain that is from the D clan, and the only one that goes against the established nature/patterns of the D characters and is confirmed to have interest in history….something that is one of the biggest pillar of One Piece's story.

                                                The clues are all there. I don't know why people are being so oblivious to it.

                                                Yes, all true but that doesn't make him the final villain.

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                                                • MiyamotoMusashi
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                                                  No mentioned argument ensures BB´s involvement in the final arc or his status as final villain, at least it does not for me.
                                                  Certainly not BB declaring it will be his age (when we know it won´t be, it´s Luffy´s) which is just an antagonist declaring their superiority, just like DD claiming he will rule the world, or Crocodile and so on.
                                                  Suddenly deducting a special role, or let´s say the most special role besides the protagonists, from that only does not really work, even if the moment BB says this, namely the end of WB´s era, is equally important to what he says.

                                                  From an individual perspective, there is without a doubt no character in the series that is more profilic than Blackbeard as an antagonist, i do not think i have to repeat the reasons, they have already been mentioned to death in this thread and others.

                                                  While i do think many people underestimate Akainu´s value maybe not as a character (he barely got any characterization beyond absolute justice terminator) but as a necessary adversary for Luffy to overcome, since he is the only guy who ultimately broke Luffy in the entire series and made him completely give up on himself, in a manga in which concepts like determination and the strength to believe in oneself are not only generic truism but at the heart of the entire story, BB´s value as a dark mirror to Luffy is not really up for debate, it´s big.

                                                  What i personally have a problem with, and this is up to Oda to make it compelling and credible if it comes to that, is BB´s eventual reason to still participate in the big war in which he has no real stakes in, unless Oda shifts BB´s role and aim from becoming PK to generally ruling the world with an Ancient Weapon like Crocodile wanted to. Because BB´s aim is without a doubt to become PK, unlike let´s say DD, his definition of becoming PK is not different to Luffy´s, get to Raftel, find OP. That´s why he is so happy when WB confirms the existence of One Piece, and it´s consistent with his insistence on the importance of dreams in Jaya.
                                                  But this also implies that BB will have no adversary role to play towards Luffy becoming PK since BB being still active in the final war and being Luffy´s last opponent to beat implies that the race for PK is over, that much is certain, since getting to Raftel and finding the One Piece is what makes you PK, and we pretty much have our confirmation that finding One Piece will inevitably lead to the revelation of the WG´s secrets, void century and stuff, and also ultimately to the confrontation with the WG, hence Luffy has to become PK before confronting the World Government.
                                                  Two Ds who have been built-up as ultimate rivals for the title not duking it out for the title does not sit well with me at all.

                                                  Of course there is another possibility, namely the World Government getting toppled without Luffy´s direct involvement in form of a fight or otherwise.
                                                  He fights BB for PK title, OP is getting revealed, others topple WG in the meantime with the knowledge that is revealed.
                                                  This would result in BB being Luffy´s final opponent, they still fight for the PK title, and WG is still getting beaten.
                                                  With this though, the only constant and consistent adversary of the entire series would basically gets sidelined, the people who have shaped the world as it is, have caused pretty much most pain in the entire world either directly or indirectly by looking away in pursuit of power, are either directly or indirectly involved with the majority of the arcs (Ancient Kingdom, Shichibukai, Marines, government agents), and quite frankly are the actual opposite to everything Luffy stands for, are not beaten by the protagonist but side characters with even less characterization and build-up than many individuals involved with the World Government.

                                                  Third possibility, Luffy fights BB two times, one time for PK title, then BB somehow gets stronger (or finds Pluton and can use it) and comes back, WG is getting beaten in the meantime and he will remain as representative of future chaotic times and clashes with Luffy.
                                                  How likely that is for a mangaka that more than anything else looks forward to drawing new stuff and has never really rehashed a main antagonist to become one again, i leave it in the air.

                                                  Nothing is certain at this point but if Oda makes BB the final antagonist, these are the hurdles he has to overcome, at least for me, for it to be credible and consistent and before i will say for certain it´s BB. If he of course completely disregards these points, then there is no limit to what he can do, but i know how i would evaluate such an outcome.

                                                  The one problem the WG has as a hurdle is the lack of an individual that stands out and represents the entirety of the World Government, which is a fair point. Like i said, i do think Akainu and his significance get underestimated, but he, first and foremost, does not stand out individually.
                                                  He is still someone viable to me because

                                                  1. Luffy has to beat him at one point, the significance of Ace´s death, and the emotional scar, symbolized by the actual scar Luffy showcases since the timeskip, coupled with being the only guy to actually have broken Luffy completely, so that he needed someone else to pick him up, is way too big to give Akainu to another character, and the best time, or heck the only time, in which such a match-up makes sense is in the end.

                                                  2. we already had an example of the main antagonist and fighter being separate from the actual leader of an organization, namely CP9. Granted, it´s on a much smaller scale, but the general setup can certainly be compared. Gorosei and Im being the ones to decide, just like Spandam did, Akainu being the executioner.

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                                                    The last opponent will be Coby, and he will defeat Luffy. Despite winning this battle, the WG will lose the war.

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                                                    • K. Kira XXIII
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                                                      There is 0% chance that the Ancient Weapons do NOT participate in the Final War. We have three, and one side having two of them would kill the opposing faction. That is why the final war needs to have three different factions, because at the climax of the world being plunged into a second void century, everyone will fight. With that into consideration, Poseidon is sided with Luffy, where are Uranus and Pluton?

                                                      The thing that is being overlooked is that if Blackbeard IS the anti-Luffy. Then it makes even more sense that both of them challenge the WG to establish the new era. The same way Luffy will fight for freedom, Blackbeard will fight to replace the WG at the top.

                                                      Reminder that what defines being the Pirate King differs from person to person. Luffy considers it being able to travel freely wherever he wants. Barto and most other pirates consider the PK someone that has conquered others and is at the top through power. I believe that while Luffy becomes a Pirate King through his travels, Blackbeard will become the PK through conquest and power. Him getting an Ancient Weapon, most likely Pluton and having defeated 1 emperor (maybe taking credit for another along the way) would put him at the top of pirate game for everyone. He would also declare himself the pirate king. Something that Luffy would not be happy about.

                                                      With the recent chapters, it is clear that the enemies of Im and the celestial dragons are the revolutionaries. So during the final war there will be two factions against the freedom of the world. The WG, which will be dealt with by the RA and Poseidon, to combat Uranus and the Elder Stars. While Luffy prevents Blackbeard from taking advantage of the world war. Luffy, would go against Pluton without an Ancient Weapon, but that's why there is the Sunny. Reminder that Franky had the blueprints for a weapon that acted as a counter to Pluton, not Pluton's blueprints itself.

                                                      Think of that possibility, and take in the latest chapters, with the Revos wanting to fight for the Fishmen, the upcoming cleansing which not only involves pirates, but two princesses from allied countries. The whole facade the Reverie is, with the Kings/Queens meeting to discuss the world, while the real meeting happens with the one true king of the world. The revolutionaries are there to expose how fake the system of power the government is.

                                                      Hidden:

                                                      Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                      Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

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                                                      • theackwardstation
                                                        theackwardstation @JDub
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                                                        @JDub:

                                                        a) Because the antagonist should be a driving force throughout the narrative. If they're supposed to be the main antagonist, the World Government only becoming active 3/4 of the way through the story is bad writing.

                                                        b) Because then what's Luffy's motivation to confront them? Luffy doesn't give a shit about the World Government, he has never gone out of his way to fuck with them. The involvement of the Marines/World Government is always circumstantial. Again, the protagonist's motivation for taking down the main antagonist should not come 3/4 of the way through the series. Compare that to Luffy's motivation to bring down Blackbeard, which has continued to grow since he entered the story.

                                                        c) See the above two answers

                                                        a) I seem to be misinformed. When was decided that the antagonist should be an active driving force throughout the narrative (especially in a long running series)? I've never heard about such a rule, and I wonder how does stories without antagonists even work. I also don't get why a reactive antagonist can't be a driving force in the narrative by its intrinsic positioning and how it gets in the way of the main characters.

                                                        Anyway, Blackbeard is an active person in his own life, but he was NEVER a driving force throughout the narrative in Luffy's journay. The idea that an antagonist should pose obstacles to the protagonist in order for him to grow stronger or polish his own ideology is very common in storytelling, but Blackbeard NEVER did anything of the sort. Luffy was always minding his own business without any concern about Blackbeard. Their storylines are independent to each other and the only point of intersection until now was Ace, but even then the Marines had an even bigger role in how that saga was designed to be Luffy going through WG's facilities to save Ace, but to ultimately see Akainu killing him. When Luffy and Blackbeard meet again in the next point of intersection, more than 3/4 of Luffy's journay will have passed without Blackbeard becoming a driving force, lol.

                                                        The WG performs your rule of antagonists even better than Blackbeard, especially because of the CP9 saga when they were not in the shadow.

                                                        b) Luffy's motivation to confront the World Government will come from two different factors: (1) inhirited will and being the Pirate King, (2) the majority of the tragedies he witnessed throughout his journay leads up to the WG as the ultimate culprit. I'll start explaining by the latter and the best exemple we can see is how all of the conflicts present in the Reverie were established in many of the previous arcs, because Oda is developing the WG as villains ever so slowly from the beginning of the series. Should I point out that those plotlines are so important that they are getting a new arc even without the main characters present? This is the story that drives the series. Therefore, at some point Luffy will become aware of the damage that the World Goverment causes to the world (to all of the friends that he's made throughout his adventure) and he will face them because of the same empathy that made him fight against all the villains of the past.

                                                        Even more important is that Luffy's adventure is to become the Pirate King, and to become the Pirate King is to inhirit the will of Roger and the Ancient Kingdom. When that happens Luffy will face the conflict between his own meaning of Pirate King and the inhirited responsabilities of the Pirate King, and he'll have to make a decision. In any traditional structure of plot, that would be the moment of development for the protagonist, but Oda will possibly subvert the trope by having Luffy say something funny like "I'm not interested in that, blablabla", LOL. Nonetheless, Luffy will ultimately end up accomplishing the will of his predecessors and performing the role of the Pirate King when he goes marching against the WG for his own personal reasons (explained in the previous paragraph). So everything comes full circle.

                                                        Also the World Government is a multifaceted organization with many moving parts and multiple key players. An antagonist is an individual. The only individual high up in the World Government that Luffy has any motivation to take down is Sakazuki, but we've seen at least six individuals who outrank him.

                                                        Once again you're coming up with rules that don't exist in literature. Anyway, it's funny that you say that right after the revelation of Im-sama, a character that can concentrate the weight of the evil of the WG.

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                                                          Coruscation @MiyamotoMusashi
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                                                          @MiyamotoMusashi:

                                                          What i personally have a problem with, and this is up to Oda to make it compelling and credible if it comes to that, is BB´s eventual reason to still participate in the big war in which he has no real stakes in, unless Oda shifts BB´s role and aim from becoming PK to generally ruling the world with an Ancient Weapon like Crocodile wanted to. Because BB´s aim is without a doubt to become PK, unlike let´s say DD, his definition of becoming PK is not different to Luffy´s, get to Raftel, find OP. That´s why he is so happy when WB confirms the existence of One Piece, and it´s consistent with his insistence on the importance of dreams in Jaya.

                                                          But this also implies that BB will have no adversary role to play towards Luffy becoming PK since BB being still active in the final war and being Luffy´s last opponent to beat implies that the race for PK is over.

                                                          That's not really a problem though as there are already multiple clues that basically confirm Blackbeard having ambitions beyond "sit around being Pirate King, yay!". We just don't know exactly what they are yet because the main antagonist's true motives are being kept as a mystery toward the end, which makes sense, but the hints are there.

                                                          When he tried to convince Ace to join his crew he flat out said he wants to conquer the world and has already laid out his plans for it. He doesn't want to just have the PK title as some kind of badge of honor and sit on his ass once he gets it. When he stole WB's fruit in Marineford he basically announced that he'll overtake the Marines and WG as the ruler of the "age". And looking at material outside the story itself, Oda has given some heavy clues in the form of saying that Teach's profession would be an archaeologist in the real world. He has a significant interest in something far back in history, not just chasing a dream for the sake of an idealistic notion like freedom. All this put together pretty much confirms that his ambitions go beyond getting a title and sitting around with it.

                                                          What makes the most sense to me is that the war will have many different factions, like

                                                          • Straw Hats & friends
                                                          • WG loyalists
                                                          • Defecting Marines that can't accept the "world cleansing" (possibly in different directions)
                                                          • Revolutionaries
                                                          • Blackbeard pirates
                                                          • other pirates and people with their own agendas

                                                          and in the end it will be Luffy and Blackbeard left standing and deciding the future of the world. There's nothing else that has been built up as much as this. Even in this chapter which has revatilized the WG-for-final-boss crew, the secret king of the world is looking at Luffy and Blackbeard side-by-side as equal threats.

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                                                          • Nilitch
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                                                            If Dragon declares war, doesn't that mean that the final war is starting now ? But that obviously, there will be many stages and battles, and whatnot.

                                                            I don't think the Celestial Dragons can fall in one single arc like the Marineford war. It's gonna take a while

                                                            Every nation gets the government it deserves.–-- Joseph de Maistre

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                                                            • Zhenja
                                                              Zhenja @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                              @K.:

                                                              Reminder that Franky had the blueprints for a weapon that acted as a counter to Pluton, not Pluton's blueprints itself.

                                                              It was the original Pluton blueprint. Those should have been used in case the original Pluton would have been activated.

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                                                              • K. Kira XXIII
                                                                K. Kira XXIII @Zhenja
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                                                                @Zhenja:

                                                                It was the original Pluton blueprint. Those should have been used in case the original Pluton would have been activated.

                                                                I always forget what was the conclusion to that, because of translations etc. But the print itself says Pluton. So, thanks.

                                                                Its purpose though still remains the same. To act as a counter to the awakening of the weapons. The original Pluton is still out there, hidden. And I am sure that Franky has incorporated some of plans while building the Sunny.

                                                                Hidden:

                                                                Originally Posted by Tamiel

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                                                                • MiyamotoMusashi
                                                                  MiyamotoMusashi @Coruscation
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                                                                  @Coruscation:

                                                                  That's not really a problem though as there are already multiple clues that basically confirm Blackbeard having ambitions beyond "sit around being Pirate King, yay!". We just don't know exactly what they are yet because the main antagonist's true motives are being kept as a mystery toward the end, which makes sense, but the hints are there.

                                                                  When he tried to convince Ace to join his crew he flat out said he wants to conquer the world and has already laid out his plans for it. He doesn't want to just have the PK title as some kind of badge of honor and sit on his ass once he gets it. When he stole WB's fruit in Marineford he basically announced that he'll overtake the Marines and WG as the ruler of the "age". And looking at material outside the story itself, Oda has given some heavy clues in the form of saying that Teach's profession would be an archaeologist in the real world. He has a significant interest in something far back in history, not just chasing a dream for the sake of an idealistic notion like freedom. All this put together pretty much confirms that his ambitions go beyond getting a title and sitting around with it.

                                                                  What makes the most sense to me is that the war will have many different factions, like

                                                                  • Straw Hats & friends
                                                                  • WG loyalists
                                                                  • Defecting Marines that can't accept the "world cleansing" (possibly in different directions)
                                                                  • Revolutionaries
                                                                  • Blackbeard pirates
                                                                  • other pirates and people with their own agendas

                                                                  and in the end it will be Luffy and Blackbeard left standing and deciding the future of the world. There's nothing else that has been built up as much as this. Even in this chapter which has revatilized the WG-for-final-boss crew, the secret king of the world is looking at Luffy and Blackbeard side-by-side as equal threats.

                                                                  It is a problem though since the hunt for PK will pretty much remain without a credible rival for Luffy while it also reveals a problem for BB. He wants to become PK and thus make it his era, if Luffy becomes PK, BB pretty much stays an empty villain who failed to achieve his goal.

                                                                  While pointing out he will be king of the pirates with his help.
                                                                  The ruler of the age is not the one who conquers WG and Marines, it was Rock´s age, Roger´s age, WB´s age, and in all through each era the WG remained in power.

                                                                  I wish it was confirmed, at this point it´s people wanting that to be the case though, so that they can feel justified in their opinion.

                                                                  If the leader of the world holds teh pictures of BB and Luffy up, he puts them up as threats against himself from a superior position, not as people who will remain in the end, there is no causality in that statement.
                                                                  If anything, it underlines the ultimate stance and level of the WG, they are above all, everyone else plays in their pond.

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                                                                    It is a problem though since the hunt for PK will pretty much remain without a credible rival for Luffy while it also reveals a problem for BB. He wants to become PK and thus make it his era, if Luffy becomes PK, BB pretty much stays an empty villain who failed to achieve his goal.

                                                                    That's why Luffy and Blackbeard will fight for who gets to be crowned that, obviously. Blackbeard will be Luffy's greatest rival and antagonist to the end, just as he's been set up to be. There's no one else who can fill that role. These two will decide the fate of the world. The only problem is that some people have decided this needs to happen at Raftel, but that's not remotely true. It's clear by now that this is going to be bigger than Raftel, it'll involve the whole world. Blackbeard, the man who proclaimed the coming era to be his, the man who speaks of conquering the world, the only evil D, the dark version of Luffy, the man with the power to destroy the world, isn't going to be anticlimactically knocked out of the picture before the great end war happens.

                                                                    The ruler of the age is not the one who conquers WG and Marines, it was Rock´s age, Roger´s age, WB´s age, and in all through each era the WG remained in power.

                                                                    Blackbeard has outright said he wants to conquer the world. He's not just aiming to do what Whitebeard did, sitting passive on a throne. Or what Roger did, reach the end and then do nothing with it. The evidence goes against that being Teach's ambition. Saying that he will be Pirate King doesn't have an innate meaning because it means different things to different people. For Blackbeard, we don't yet know exactly what it means but if you assume it means holding a title and sitting on his ass you're likely to be surprised.

                                                                    I wish it was confirmed, at this point it´s people wanting that to be the case though, so that they can feel justified in their opinion.

                                                                    The evidence is clearly stacked. Speaking about conquering the world, having an interest in ancient history. All the signs point to it and that's what good predictions are, based in clear clues and evidence. Nothing will be truly confirmed until it happens but it's as close as it gets.

                                                                    If the leader of the world holds teh pictures of BB and Luffy up, he puts them up as threats against himself from a superior position, not as people who will remain in the end, there is no causality in that statement.
                                                                    If anything, it underlines the ultimate stance and level of the WG, they are above all, everyone else plays in their pond.

                                                                    Of course he is, he's in the superior position now, but these are the two people that will eventually threaten him and his rule. Blackbeard has announced his intention to conquer the world and that the World Government can basically go fuck itself because it's HIS era. By the end the WG won't be the biggest fish in the pond anymore, they'll be knocked off their thrones as the ones who rose to the top in the new era decide the future. We had even more foreshadowing for this extremely recently with Doflamingo, if you recall:

                                                                    https://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/801/9

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                                                                    • desa
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                                                                      I don't the supreme king change much to who should be the final villain. At best it is a guy that Dragon/Ace will defeat. So I am really not sure why the thread is once again active. Everyone are still sticking to the same opinion because nothing truly changed for either.

                                                                      I have several problems with Blackbeard and his crew as final villains:

                                                                      1- It's 11 fights. It's a freaking lot. Also with how big the war is I believe it woud be way to cramp to add all that fighting on top of all the other one that will need to have happen.

                                                                      2- In a massive war it would be wierdly convenient if they managed to pair up with just the strawhats.

                                                                      3-It's pirate against pirate. I really hate the idea that in the fight to decide how the world will be we would get the fight between with just pirates, people that lives outside the law and society. And after so much confrontation between pirate it diminish the importance of the rest of the world (so most of the population). THe world is more diverse than that and I believe it should be reflected.

                                                                      I also personal reason to think Blackbeard is better on Raftel:

                                                                      4-Many consider Raftel that raftel lost his personal importance and is now a pit stop to the big war. I consider that it keeps his importance and that both will be climaxes in their own way. One being when Luffy matching Roger's legend the second being when Luffy surpass Roger's legend.

                                                                      Blackbeard and his crew are the perfect villain for this. Blackbeard is modeled after the most known pirate so he is the perfect enemy for Luffy to become pirate king. It's a mostly empty pplace so there's ample time to focus on both crew and perfect time for them to fight without an arc that his already too crowded.

                                                                      5- There's also good imagery where Roger was equal to Whitebeard and Luffy beat the one that had his fruit. So Luffy come facing the goverment being the best piracy ever had to offer and dominating this world before clashing it with the rest of the world.

                                                                      6- Luffy's goal is pirate king. Luffy's dream is freedom. I think fitting that they are split on two great events. The most real pirates for pirate king and the side about total control for his freedom. It also split Usopp being the best sniper against Augur and becoming the bravest in a war of massive proportion that should scare him. And such image can be done with others.

                                                                      7-Blackbeard is chaos. He is a evil man that loves to do evil things. Both are great for a pirate confrontation but it is lacking in actual world order for a final war that decides what the bew world order is.He is a good wild card in it but not so much a good confrontation of ideas for the last confrontation.

                                                                      8- Allies. Luffy will be the face of the thing but clearly he will be full of allies we have seen him built. Same can be said of the revolutionary. No side will just be just a little group and Blackbeard like in that element that his crew might be important but we have no interesting allies on his side. Luffy has his fleets, We know. the countries, we spent time with marines and CP0. We know those massive factions. Blackbeard with a bunch of strong but unengaging pirates seems much less intesresting.

                                                                      9- Blackbeard is a sore loser. So him coming to the war after having loss is a totaly Blackbeard move that still give us the three side without having to focus on him.

                                                                      10- Being the villain of Raftel means no split focus and Blackbeard gets the spotlight for an important fight(Pirate king) in an important location(Raftel) about a vital plot(ancient kingdom/ truth of the world).

                                                                      Of course all of this are my opinion. There could also be a thing where Blackbeard is the villain of raftel, win and become pirate king and ready to challenge the world. And in that Luffy and allies are underdog. I don't like it because I think Luffy should be the one to be next pirate king and it's frustrating which I don't value in this kind of story. But it's not impossible and still solve most problems with having Blackbeard at the war despite Luffy already being king.

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                                                                        braveniler58
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                                                                        My problem with the idea of Luffy fighting and beating Blackbeard at Raftel, is that Luffy's feats always have a way of coming out. Punk Hazard - Smoker was there, Caesar broadcast the events to the underworld. Dressrosa - Doflamingo's 'resignation' was spread worldwide, plus Doflamingo's extremely public downfall. WCI - Big News Morgan. And now, Wano hasn't even started and the Marines already know Luffy, Big Mom, and Kaido are all gonna fight.

                                                                        For the final war to succeed, the people need to know of Luffy's feats. There need to be witnesses. And the people absolutely must see Blackbeard fall, after seeing him rise at Marineford. So, who are the witnesses if it's just the Straw Hats and Blackbeards at Raftel?

                                                                        I believe the Final War will be televised, just like Marineford was, and Blackbeard falling before that doesn't make sense to me. Maybe they will fight at Raftel, but if they do, it won't end there. Blackbeard vs Luffy should happen here. The Final Fight at the Final War.

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                                                                        • Robby
                                                                          Robby @desa
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                                                                          Blackbeard will be the second pirate King, so Luffy can still be an underdog in the end. Emporer versus Emporer is an even match, and will mean nothing with Luffy has already tangled with three of them. Emporer versus Pirate King still allows underdog.

                                                                          I didn't used to think BB would be king first, but Luffy's promotion a couple chapters back changed that.

                                                                          @desa:

                                                                          1- It's 11 fights. It's a freaking lot. Also with how big the war is I believe it woud be way to cramp to add all that fighting on top of all the other one that will need to have happen.

                                                                          It's a shonen manga. If you think Oda ISN'T going to give everyone a final 1 on 1 to really go all out for the finale, you're mistaken. (Also the final war will likely be several years long. Even if every fight goes for three chapters each that's about a year…. Enies Lobby was just as long.)

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                                                                          • K. Kira XXIII
                                                                            K. Kira XXIII @Robby
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                                                                            @Robby:

                                                                            Blackbeard will be the second pirate King, so Luffy can still be an underdog in the end. Emporer versus Emporer is an even match, and will mean nothing with Luffy has already tangled with three of them. Emporer versus Pirate King still allows underdog.

                                                                            I am not sure an underdog scenario through title is completely necessary. I still believe that the fight of Pirate Kings is good, both having reached the pinnacle of their ambition as pirates, one through freedom, the other through power.

                                                                            The underdog situation will already be there because the ~good~ side will still confront two factions. That's why having Poseidon, which is now being tied with the revolutionaries, deal with Im and the Government, seems to be what is being built up. While Luffy goes against Blackbeard whom has an Ancient Weapon and he does not.

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                                                                            Originally Posted by Tamiel

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                                                                            • auem
                                                                              auem
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                                                                              Blackbeard can be underdog too. If Luffy and co. along with revolutionaries and may be defected marines defeat the WG and then BB challenges Luffy. I would prefer Luffy reaching Raftel first and taking the moniker of pirate king as well as bringing true history to the world. Then the big fight with WG happens and finally Luffy faces BB. Knowing Luffy he should oblige to BB's challenge and give him a fair fight.But by that time Luffy will be clearly at top going by his achievements and BB only a pretender/contender,but their fightings will be a nailbiting deathmatch.

                                                                              “When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”

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                                                                              • desa
                                                                                desa @Robby
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                                                                                @Robby:

                                                                                Blackbeard will be the second pirate King, so Luffy can still be an underdog in the end. Emporer versus Emporer is an even match, and will mean nothing with Luffy has already tangled with three of them. Emporer versus Pirate King still allows underdog.

                                                                                That is a fair point and I don't pretend to be right.

                                                                                My problem tho is that it means Luffy loses. Of course at the end of the war he gets his revenge but in such a joyful thing as one piece I think it feels wrong to have Luffy's journey to Raftel fail and having to make up for it. I also think it would make more sense for Robin to be the one to deliver the truth simple pirate couldn't handle and ignite the flame of the revolution in honor of the Oharans that wanted to spread knowledge.

                                                                                Of course those two points could very well be considered why Oda would do it as a way to get the reader riled up but after years of trying to put happy endings it just feels wrong to spend so much time riling up his readers. I have a hard time believing this much frustration to his readers is what he is thriving to achieve.

                                                                                How about Blackbeard (that is a sore loser) appear at the end fresh while Luffy that has been fighting non stop and is tired as hell fight each other?

                                                                                I didn't used to think BB would be king first, but Luffy's promotion a couple chapters back changed that.

                                                                                For them to fight full crew against full crew in the war one of the 2 captain has to have ordered his crew to face the other. It can't be Blackbeard if he is already king. Meaning it has to be Luffy. Probably in some kind "Don't worry about it Vivi, we will take care of them" when strategy is being done.

                                                                                It would be weird for them to fight injured when they are already the underdogs challenging the king forces and proving themselves. So it would mean they need to have the blackbeard as their fights while the rest battle it out.

                                                                                While it's not the worst scenario I prefer the crew to be an active part in the war rather than be focus on taking on a specific crew.

                                                                                I think with Luffy as king it can get more interesting with them already eing at the top and helping the allies in the war. Than if necessary Blackbeard show up to challenge a tired out a tired pirate king crew. Attacking their opponent at their weakest is part of Blackbeard MO. And him being the pursuer let the strawhats crew be more active in the war prior. And maybe some get deafeat with help from allies while the key fights are done more personal.

                                                                                It's a shonen manga. If you think Oda ISN'T going to give everyone a final 1 on 1 to really go all out for the finale, you're mistaken. (Also the final war will likely be several years long. Even if every fight goes for three chapters each that's about a year…. Enies Lobby was just as long.)

                                                                                Depends. I expect them to fight I dunno if expect evryone to have a lengthy 1 vs 1 especially Usopp and Nami. And the biggest thing is we'll have plenty of other fights to see like revolutionaries(Dragon, Sabo), probably "good marines"(Garp, Coby), Fleet people(Barto, Sai, Chinjao?), Most likely countries army(Pell, Kyros). Meaning a lot of fights and chaos for a giant bang.

                                                                                I expect the strawhats to be part of that chaotic environment meaning participating in the fights with CP, marine and wathever else. And more important I expect Oda to pay off of their skills they've been improving and have been their dreams like Nami commanding a fleet because she managed to map out the right place to attack. Usopp having a whole squad attack him and 2 other people and standing his ground because it's time to be the bravest. Etc… And in the middle of that they gets fights but not necessarily a full on 3 chapter one.

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                                                                                  uniaka ikuzakas
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                                                                                  Luffy is not even underdog. Arlong, krieg, guy from usopp's island, usopp, enel, chinjao, blueno, doflamingo, Morgan, CC, buggy, hody jones, lucci, Moria, can't tell me luffy was underdog with them. The only time luffy was underdog was maybe in the marineford war( but that Whole war was pretty much the underdogs vs full marine force, not just luffy), and in cake island because of the bounty of katakuri that is still wanted poster, something that was unclear since ever how they calculate bounties.

                                                                                  If anything, some of luffy's villains look like the underdogs in combat with luffy, like enel or anyone with blunt Attacks, or guys that are not much physical fighters to last long with his combat style.

                                                                                  https://imgur.com/MyjRSWw

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                                                                                  • desa
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                                                                                    Eastblue was about discovering Luffy so it is no surprise that he wasn't an underdog there. It was about people underestimating him and Luffy proving them.

                                                                                    However Once in Grandline he was mostly the underdog. Against Croc he was the rookie facing the warlord. Enel was steamrolling everyone without much trouble and had a logia, Lucci instantly overpowered Luffy in their first encounter, Moria was a warlord with an undead army, Kizaru was an admiral etc…

                                                                                    Luffy usually approach the situation from what seems like a position of inferiority and overcoming the odds.

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                                                                                      uniaka ikuzakas @desa
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                                                                                      @desa:

                                                                                      Eastblue was about discovering Luffy so it is no surprise that he wasn't an underdog there. It was about people underestimating him and Luffy proving them.

                                                                                      However Once in Grandline he was mostly the underdog. Against Croc he was the rookie facing the warlord. Enel was steamrolling everyone without much trouble and had a logia, Lucci instantly overpowered Luffy in their first encounter, Moria was a warlord with an undead army, Kizaru was an admiral etc…

                                                                                      Luffy usually approach the situation from what seems like a position of inferiority and overcoming the odds.

                                                                                      Croc is one of the few cases, but ever since his water weakness was revealed, that was gone.

                                                                                      Enel steamrolling everyone without the rubber fruit, luffy was for enel what akainu is for ace. Moria was warlord, but luffy beat another warlord without his gears in alabasta.

                                                                                      https://imgur.com/MyjRSWw

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                                                                                      • desa
                                                                                        desa @uniaka ikuzakas
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                                                                                        @uniaka:

                                                                                        Croc is one of the few cases, but ever since his water weakness was revealed, that was gone. Enel steamrolling everyone without the rubber fruit, luffy was for enel what akainu is for ace. Moria was warlord, but luffy beat another warlord without his gears in alabasta.

                                                                                        Being the underdog isn't about how easy the fight is but how bad your odds seems before the confrontation start.

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                                                                                        • BobLoblaw
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                                                                                          Blackbeard will not become pirate king and I think it's ridiculous that people still entertain that thought. Luffy will not fail in his goal to become PK. As WB said, BB is not the person that Roger was waiting for. Luffy will still be an underdog in his fight against BB. He's got the darkness fruit that he killed for and the quake fruit which has the power to destroy the world. Not only that, but given the timeskip, he's also mastered them by now, probably even awakened them. Those are good enough for us to presume that Luffy will have a tough fight on his hands (not even considering the fact that BB may actually also have an ancient weapon).

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                                                                                            Big Black Hole @BobLoblaw
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                                                                                            @BobLoblaw:

                                                                                            Those are good enough for us to presume that Luffy will have a tough fight on his hands (not even considering the fact that BB may actually also have an ancient weapon).

                                                                                            Of course this is going to happen. The relevant question is the placing of this fight in the story. Blackbeard's role will NOT end at Raftel. So the big fight will also not occur at Raftel. But if Blackbeard's full role will only come to light after Raftel, he of course needs to be around after Raftel.

                                                                                            That's where the idea that at first he will be Pirate King gains shape.

                                                                                            Carrot's still never gonna join the crew. ![](images/smilies/ipb/wink.png "Wink")

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                                                                                            • MiyamotoMusashi
                                                                                              MiyamotoMusashi @Coruscation
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                                                                                              @Coruscation:

                                                                                              That's why Luffy and Blackbeard will fight for who gets to be crowned that, obviously. Blackbeard will be Luffy's greatest rival and antagonist to the end, just as he's been set up to be. There's no one else who can fill that role. These two will decide the fate of the world. The only problem is that some people have decided this needs to happen at Raftel, but that's not remotely true. It's clear by now that this is going to be bigger than Raftel, it'll involve the whole world. Blackbeard, the man who proclaimed the coming era to be his, the man who speaks of conquering the world, the only evil D, the dark version of Luffy, the man with the power to destroy the world, isn't going to be anticlimactically knocked out of the picture before the great end war happens.

                                                                                              Blackbeard has outright said he wants to conquer the world. He's not just aiming to do what Whitebeard did, sitting passive on a throne. Or what Roger did, reach the end and then do nothing with it. The evidence goes against that being Teach's ambition. Saying that he will be Pirate King doesn't have an innate meaning because it means different things to different people. For Blackbeard, we don't yet know exactly what it means but if you assume it means holding a title and sitting on his ass you're likely to be surprised.

                                                                                              The evidence is clearly stacked. Speaking about conquering the world, having an interest in ancient history. All the signs point to it and that's what good predictions are, based in clear clues and evidence. Nothing will be truly confirmed until it happens but it's as close as it gets.

                                                                                              Of course he is, he's in the superior position now, but these are the two people that will eventually threaten him and his rule. Blackbeard has announced his intention to conquer the world and that the World Government can basically go fuck itself because it's HIS era. By the end the WG won't be the biggest fish in the pond anymore, they'll be knocked off their thrones as the ones who rose to the top in the new era decide the future. We had even more foreshadowing for this extremely recently with Doflamingo, if you recall:

                                                                                              https://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/801/9

                                                                                              That´s all and well but you have completely glossed over the issue i pointed at.
                                                                                              Fight between BB and Luffy happening after is all and well, him not being relevant for PK is a rather disappointing notion though.
                                                                                              It´s a problem that has to be addressed in some form, and no, BB becoming Pirate King first is a ridiculous notion because it significantly decreases the worth of the Pirate King in the first place.
                                                                                              And Luffy would not be PK if he simply follows BB, and beating him does not make him PK either, unlike a title like WSS for example.

                                                                                              BB outright said he wants to become PK and equates becoming PK to make this his era.
                                                                                              WB has no bearing in it, he does not want to be WB.
                                                                                              Yep, he wants to be PK and move further, if he does not become PK though -> goal not achieved -> a loser villain.

                                                                                              Everybody spoke about conquering the world, each antagonist, all failed.
                                                                                              Without an actual hint or something that might explain or even hint at the chronological order of things, this remains a fan wish, albeit an educated one.

                                                                                              The WG is not the biggest fish in the pond, they own the pond in which the fish are swimming, completely different concept.
                                                                                              And once again, BB claiming something does not make it true.
                                                                                              And Luffy ahs to be the one to do it, as WB has foreshadowed, since the one who carries the will of the Ancient Kingdom and centuries on his back is gonna challenge the WG and conquer it.

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                                                                                              • Robby
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                                                                                                Zoro isn't going to end up fighting Mihawk. Some disappointments are going to happen along the way.

                                                                                                Blackbeard is the final enemy, and Luffy can't be his superior at that point, that's not shonen dramatics.

                                                                                                ANd Luffy doesn't need to be already tired… BB has two incredibly broken fruits (and probably a third coming) he's going to be a big enough deal without Luffy at a handicap.... because he is going to be the strongest, toughest, nastiest guy in the world when Luffy fights him for the grand finale of the series. You don't have the final battle with the shonen hero at the top fighting the guy in second place, that just doesn't work dramatically.

                                                                                                B K. Kira XXIII Long John Silvers Rayleigh 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                                                                                  BattleFranky69 @Robby
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                                                                                                  I think it'll be a remnant of the lost civilization. But the heir to the legacy must be worthy and so far no one who's gotten to Raftel has been. So it'll be Luffy this time, even though Roger might have been worthy and just unwilling to accept it. After all, he had attachments in this world like his kid and baby-mama, while Luffy doesn't have that.

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                                                                                                  • K. Kira XXIII
                                                                                                    K. Kira XXIII @Robby
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                                                                                                    @Robby:

                                                                                                    Zoro isn't going to end up fighting Mihawk. Some disappointments are going to happen along the way.

                                                                                                    Blackbeard is the final enemy, and Luffy can't be his superior at that point, that's not shonen dramatics.

                                                                                                    ANd Luffy doesn't need to be already tired… BB has two incredibly broken fruits (and probably a third coming) he's going to be a big enough deal without Luffy at a handicap.... because he is going to be the strongest, toughest, nastiest guy in the world when Luffy fights him for the grand finale of the series. You don't have the final battle with the shonen hero at the top fighting the guy in second place, that just doesn't work dramatically.

                                                                                                    Why can't both have the title earned through their respective philosophies on the matter. It seems very dramatic when two equals are trying to decide the fate of the world. The underdog tones can be brought upon with other elements besides the title. We have the potential of Luffy fighting Blackbeard without an Ancient Weapon to back him up, and how powerful Blackbeard already is.

                                                                                                    –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                                    @MiyamotoMusashi:

                                                                                                    The WG is not the biggest fish in the pond, they own the pond in which the fish are swimming, completely different concept.
                                                                                                    And once again, BB claiming something does not make it true.

                                                                                                    The WG owns the pond, and instead of having one fish trying to challenge it, we have another faction trying to overtake that position for their own selfish desires. Unlike Luffy, that's why the parallels between Luffy and Blackbeard can be carried even after Raftel.

                                                                                                    What, or how someone becomes the pirate king differs from person to person. For Luffy is freedom, while for Blackbeard is chaos/conquering. It would work well within the themes of both, to have each acquire the title through different means. Luffy, by finishing exploring the world, and Blackbeard by acquiring an Ancient Power, and getting rid of his competition: mainly Shanks and potentially other emperors.

                                                                                                    Blackbeard defeating 1-2 emperors would make him the top pirate in terms of how the world views him.

                                                                                                    And Luffy ahs to be the one to do it, as WB has foreshadowed, since the one who carries the will of the Ancient Kingdom and centuries on his back is gonna challenge the WG and conquer it.

                                                                                                    Yes, Luffy will be the one to ultimately do it, that does not mean there cannot be a competitor trying to take advantage of the shift in power.

                                                                                                    More than Luffy toppling the government, slowly I can see him being the one that actually prevents someone from sitting on the Empty Throne. He will help getting Im out of there, but will also prevent anyone from taking his place. Which aligns with his concept of freedom.

                                                                                                    Hidden:

                                                                                                    Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                                                                    Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

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                                                                                                      DemonX
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                                                                                                      Here's hoping the King (or Queen?) of the World won't be the new Kagura (well, at least it won't be out of the blue anymore, but still).

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                                                                                                      • Long John Silvers Rayleigh
                                                                                                        Long John Silvers Rayleigh @Robby
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                                                                                                        @Robby:

                                                                                                        Zoro isn't going to end up fighting Mihawk. Some disappointments are going to happen along the way.

                                                                                                        Blackbeard is the final enemy, and Luffy can't be his superior at that point, that's not shonen dramatics.

                                                                                                        ANd Luffy doesn't need to be already tired… BB has two incredibly broken fruits (and probably a third coming) he's going to be a big enough deal without Luffy at a handicap.... because he is going to be the strongest, toughest, nastiest guy in the world when Luffy fights him for the grand finale of the series. You don't have the final battle with the shonen hero at the top fighting the guy in second place, that just doesn't work dramatically.

                                                                                                        Idk a ton of people think finding the one piece is what makes one the pirate king. Luffy wants to become the pirate king to be the freest man on the seas but just being free wont make him the king. If blackbeard beats him too and becomes the pirate king then does luffy beating him make him the king or just a guy who beat the king.

                                                                                                        If blackbeard gets there first that means robin reads the rio poneglyph after the war. The void century and all proof of corruption has to come before the war.

                                                                                                        Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:

                                                                                                        So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?

                                                                                                        H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler

                                                                                                        Spoiler:

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