The new spoiler thread rules

[Aldrich]

Ok, so I'm going to live up to my reputation here and "bitch" some more, or actually point out bullshit, double standards and asinine "rules".

Basically I just got a warning for expressing my opinion towards an event taking place in chapter 432. Of course, it was a negative opinion. The funny thing is, I clicked on the FAQ & rules icon and checked… And there's absolutely nothing forbidding people to form an opinion based on clear and undisputable info.

Now apparently the staff pulled a new set of rules out of their posterior region, only for spoiler threads, preventing people from "bitching", because supposedly we don't have enough information to form a complete opinion. Then I ask, what's the point of a spoiler thread? Why would the absolutely ridiculous, mindless enthusiasm displayed in majority in these threads be allowed and not skepticism and criticism, as in both cases we don't have the complete view of the chapter?

More importantly, what bothers me is how the staff's trying to pass off these new rules as a way to keep the atmosphere friendly as everytime the spoiler thread derailed, it was because the negative opinions were met with contempt, when it's not insults and bashing. Why not simply enforce the rules stating, you know, "be respective of other member's opinions" and "No trolling, bashing, or flaming. Respect all members, their opinions, and their posts"? It actually reminds me of that South Park episode where Catholic priests, when confronted with the problem of child abuse in the Church, were more worried about the way to reduce kids to silence, instead of trying to fight against their pedophile tendencies.

At least have the honesty to clearly state "this is a fan forum. Not being surgically attached to Oda's nutsack is a bannable offense".

Thank you for your time.

[CosmicDebris]

@Aldrich:

Why not simply enforce the rules stating, you know, "be respective of other member's opinions" and "No trolling, bashing, or flaming. Respect all members, their opinions, and their posts"?

We kept trying that, but it failed. With you often being a culprit.
The rule only applies to the spoiler thread. You're free to complain on how much you're diappointed with the chapter when the actual chapter comes out.
I'm sorry that it pains you so much to have to wait a couple of days for the chapter to come out to do so.

[Aldrich]

@CosmicDebris:

We kept trying that, but it failed. With you often being a culprit.
The rule only applies to the spoiler thread. You're free to complain on how much you're diappointed with the chapter when the actual chapter comes out.

With me being a culprit? Of what, not respecting other people's opinions? Bullshit and lies. I did bash posters who felt like they could talk to me like if I was their dog though, but that's only because they opened the hostilities just because I had the audacity not to post the kind of idiotic blind praise that makes up 99% of these spoiler threads. Besides, I don't think I ever got warned once for these flaming replies. So no, you didn't "keep trying that", sorry.

I'm sorry that it pains you so much to have to wait a couple of days for the chapter to come out to do so.

It pains me to see hypocrisy and closet fanboyism. That's all.

[CosmicDebris]

@Aldrich:

With me being a culprit? Of what, not respecting other people's opinions? Bullshit and lies. I did bash posters who felt like they could talk to me like if I was their dog though, but that's only because they opened the hostilities just because I had the audacity not to post the kind of idiotic blind praise that makes up 99% of these spoiler threads. Besides, I don't think I ever got warned once for these flaming replies. So no, you didn't "keep trying that", sorry.

I didn't say you were the only one. Usually a general warning the thread got sent out rather than individual ones. A lot of people did get warnings. I think a lot of people have gotten off easy. You weren't in the mod forum over the months of discussing the problems with the spoiler threads that finally lead to the decision to make the rule that was put in place now. >.< If it were up to me rather than oceanizer, there would be no spoiler thread.

It pains me to see hypocrisy and closet fanboyism. That's all.

You're quite the masochist.

[oceanizer]

It's either we discontinues the spoiler discussion threads, or enforce the strict rule of no bitching and all the stuff so that other people don't get annoyed. This rule has been going on for past several chapters, so it's nothing new. It's not in the Forum rules section yet because I'm lazy too busy to do all the stuff along my real life work deadline coming up the end of this month.

As Cosmic said, we have no problem you bitch at the chapter once the full chapter is out except we get extra annoyed by Usopp fanboys.

Please remember that we did consider of discontinuing the spoiler discussion threads. I know for a fact that majority of staff members are against having the spoiler discussions by now because of all those problems we had in the past. It's still going on just because … I like it >.> I like how the tension rises as more and more spoilers come out. I did give in to other staff members though; spoiler discussion threads will be discontinued after while if people continues bitching etc in it. Those are all written in the Spoiler Thread Rules.

Now since I'm at it, let me put that spoiler rule in part of forum rule section so that part of your argument fails D:

[Polygon]

**If it was me (which it isn't) I would give a warning the first time and temp. ban the second.

Of course, I don't even go into the spoiler threads for fear of getting

! spoiled**

[Aldrich]

@oceanizer:

It's either we discontinues the spoiler discussion threads, or enforce the strict rule of no bitching and all the stuff so that other people don't get annoyed.

That's my main gripe with it: by doing so, (enforcing the "no bitching" rule, what's bitching btw? Not posting omgwtfbbqlolz oda i wants to receive ur semen plz ur a god lal :)))) :p ijust came a litl ) you're justifying the fact "people" replied to these negative opinions by flaming and bashing. You're giving "people" the advantage over those who, in the beginning, didn't break any rules. Instead of enforcing existing rules to keep the level of discussions civil, you're creating a new rule so there's no more discussions, or neutered ones. I find it strange.

As Cosmic said, we have no problem you bitch at the chapter once the full chapter is out

Again I could have understood the warning if I posted "this chapter will suck", but I merely commented on something that is now set in stone; so what difference does it make, this part I dislike will still be here once the chapter is out, only difference is I'll probably like other parts of the chap and will say it too. I see nothing that could cause people to be annoyed.

Anyway thanks for taking the time to reply.

[joekido the Second]

Bitching is the hard word for complaining, gripping, nagging. So I agreed on ocean with thesr terms, I was very tired of them, everyone is tired of it and ocean likes spoiler threads so he's doing his best job to "tame" the bitching problems.

[Aldrich]

Yeah, I know Joekido… It was a rhetorical question.

[Mr. Death]

I agree with Aldrich, what the point of the spoiler thread is you can 't post your opinion on it , untill the full chapter comes out. Also if he does post a negative comment about the spoiler who does it hurt. Its just an opinion, Its not Aldrich fault that some people are to narrowed mind to hear what other people opinions are. What how sorry would the spoiler threads be if everyone post the same mindless crap.

[Vegetto2k2]

As i said in the 432 thread. I think the rule is ridiculous. Rules, sure. Rules which forbid opinions which are going to be the same when the actual chapters comes.. No. If Aldrich said something like "I think this chapter is gonna turn out like a piece of shit".. That would be bitching, and jumping to conclusions.. What he said was relevant to the discussion. Everyone else is doing the EXACT same thing in a positive respect. I'm sorry, but there is always going to be positive and negative opinions, and dictating "Friendly" conversations will ultimately lead to more problems.. Make rules, but make them fair.

[oceanizer]

Don't I hate it so much when a long reply I just typed up dissappear? Sigh…

The problem we had in the past was that people complained about the spoiler and said they will never read One Piece any more if the story was really like that. When the full chapter came out, the story turned out great and I didn't see any of the complainers actually stopped reading One Piece. The main problem there was lack of info and/or bad translations.

Now, in your case, I can most likely agree that you wouldn't change your opinion unless there are some other hidden info there (like the person will say "Ha ha! It was all lie!! You failed for it!!!," though it's most unlikely and that'd be more lame if it happens). But considering we have 300+ members/guests viewing the thread and frantically posting in it, and we only have 2-3 mods to actually read the spoiler threads (other mods hate being spoiled and I don't blame them), it'd be too much work for us to work on case by case basis and explaining individuals why his case was okay and not hers (and vise versa). That's why we (I) warn whoever that touches the border line.

If you really don't like the chapter after reading the spoiler, please just stay away, and come back after you read the full chapter. Like mentioned earlier, we have no problem with you expressing your opinion however you want (UNLESS you keep saying same thing over and over again... like how it happened with Usopp while ago).

Once again, the spoiler thread is there by a favor of people who are against getting any kind of spoilers. This has been the problem ever since the beginning of spoiler posting tradition (I think I started it, if not moomin :P), and I did see some discussion dated on May 3, 2005 by (former) admins, and that was even before I was a mod/admin. If you want to keep that up, please follow the rule. Thanks.

[Malintex_Terek]

I also agree with Aldrich and believe the warning was unjustly given in this instance; the rules were put in place to reduce leakings while additionally halting the bastiching about Oda, Usopp, and Sanji, which was often dipping into bashing/trolling. What he did was express disappointment/resentment, which isn't even comparable to the roaring flames that were plaguing the spoilers a month ago; at the very least, the "complaint" (if it could be considered such) was relevant to the chapter, instead of an extra-chapter theme/concept (like the running development of Usopp/Sanji).

@Aldrich:

It pains me to see hypocrisy and closet fanboyism. That's all.

Agreed: dittoheads and manga jingoists are extremely annoying, but Arlong Park has historically been relatively free of them and most of the replies in the spoilers are genuine surprise/praise/enjoyment with the chapter.

[Luckett_X]

What I find personally absurd about the new rules is when the thread is locked for several hours or longer because of someone elses mistake or misdemeanor. It stops all discussion for everyone, and just defeats the point of this being a forum for people to discuss things. Its way too heavy handed parenting, and it's just very annoying and not necessary.

Saying things like "well we'll just stop spoiler threads altogether!!" is just way over the top over-reacting. Why have a forum at all if not to promote discussion? Okay Aldrich needs to turn down his disillusioned shtick a fair bit as it gets pretty annoying, but to do that you punish specific members, not EVERYONE. Come on, thats just common sense.

[sabret00the]

This post is deleted!

[Polygon]

@sabret00the:

i think there needs to some sort of realism that some people here are not under the age of 16, some of us are past the mid-twenties mark and as such don't require being treated as children as we trade opinions.

**Quoted for truth.

::::

It appears Firefox 2.0 has spellcheck. Almost spelled quote wrong.**

[e1n]

sabretooth, KEEP THE SPOILER IN THE SPOILER THREAD.

what did i say to voodzik when i was still a mod?

[sabret00the]

I have no idea. However having a thread about spoiler threads based on an actual specific spoiler thread. would it have not been more prudent to either keep the conversation in said thread, make this thread with a spoiler warning or indeed pm me so i could add a spoiler tag as opposed to delete a whole 100% relevant post?

[theinvisibleworm]

I think it's juvenile for the moderators to ban an entire area of discussion simply because they were annoyed at the fact that members were saying they would stop reading one piece if a given spoiler was true to context.

oceanizer, you seem like a reasonable person. Could you at the very least explain why you mods can't just state that in spoiler threads you "reserve the right to hide/edit/warn people for sweeping statements about their readership to Oda based on the shaky context and content of a spoiler thread?

This way, non-retarded people can discuss the spoiler thread and voice their hopes for the direction of one piece and their hopes as to where they'd rather the series didn't head without moderators having to stilt the discussions?

I understand that spoiler threads can get flame-festy rather quickly, and that they can degenerate into retarded bullshit, so why not foster more intelligent discussion rather than just take a dump on everyone who visits the thread?

I hope spoiler threads aren't ever eliminated, because for me, a lot of the fun is seeing them, guessing about shit, and then being wrong. Plus, the fun context that everyone else who posts in the spoiler thread, and the sketchy/good translations adds to the environment.

Signed,
Pretentious Artfag Representative

[Cap'n Carter]

You need to hear my opinion on stuff

[CosmicDebris]

Ah, it's the parade of the Loaded Questions. How trite.

[theinvisibleworm]

Is that seriously your response to my post?

[Zulen]

Uh oh… I hear the charging of Flaming... ducks in cover

[ooshi78]

it's their rules, deal with it. you guys agreed to follow them when you made an account. if you don't like it you can talk to them about it and see if they'll change it, or you can go away. stop bitching about things.

ooshi78

[CosmicDebris]

@theinvisibleworm:

Is that seriously your response to my post?

It was a general statement to the whole thread because that's what I keep seeing. The presupposition that all the mods and admin are plotting to remove all criticism against Oda and force everyone to be mindless fanboys or whatever.

Your post should be directed at all members of the board who post in the spoiler thread. It's not the sole responsibility of mods and admin to foster "more intelligent discussion", we just step in when there's a problem, usually because of complaints from other people. If you have some positive suggestions on how to do that, please post it.

[theinvisibleworm]

I understand that it's their rules, and that's why I always follow them.

This is what you call an appeal, ooshi. We're asking them to consider modifying them a bit, not stating that if they don't, we'll stop following them.

Anyway, I'll wait for ocean's response, my post at least wasn't a flame and it addressed the issue rather seriously, so I hope I get at least one serious response.

Cosmic, I was just hoping you hadn't brushed my post off like that is all.

I agree with you, the mods shouldn't hold the sole responsibility towards fostering intelligent discussion. That wasn't my point though. My point was that it seems as though you guys prefer to take a chainsaw to the tree when you see even just a few bad apples on it, ignoring the rest.

[CosmicDebris]

Well, that's always the tricky part, because generally what happens is someone says something and it starts a chain reaction that lasts for several pages. It's not just a few stray comments here and there. If it was, it wouldn't be such an issue. If everyone could learn to just be…not so much of a jerk the way they express their opinions, think a little more before they post rather than posting just for the sake of posting, and know when to just ignore some people, then we wouldn't need to do much of anything to the thread.

[ooshi78]

@theinvisibleworm:

This way, non-retarded people can discuss the spoiler thread and voice their hopes for the direction of one piece and their hopes as to where they'd rather the series didn't head without moderators having to stilt the discussions?

I understand that spoiler threads can get flame-festy rather quickly, and that they can degenerate into retarded bullshit, so why not foster more intelligent discussion rather than just take a dump on everyone who visits the thread?

so you're saying that others are retarded and that you're not? can't you see that it's posts like aldrich's that kick off what you call the "retarded bullshit"? the mods have been here long enough to figure out what instigates bad posts and they're trying to get to the root of it. if your post causes "retarded bullshit" then guess what you're doing?? that's right, you're driving the short school bus.

ooshi78

[Zulen]

When I joined this forum, I knew full well what the people would be like.

Anime… Manga... these people are generally intelligent but ultimatly sensitive. Don't try to convince me otherwise.

[joekido the Second]

Come on, being a Mod/Admin is an hard work and they don't get paid for this. Sure the rules are sensetive but it's done to prevent chain reaction started by one negetive thread. If you were a Mod Adlrich, you would do the same thing.

I understand saying

! Don't even put spoilers in spoiler tags outside the spoiler thread, joekido - Cos
is not an big deal to you but that comment may spark later flame war and oceazier has to sharpen his authority. What you said may not meant to bitch the chapter, it just that this kind of comment may get people to go

"Hey I agree! This sucks!"
"Yeah! It sucks ass!"
"Screw this chapter!!"

ocean wants to keep the spoiler thread clean of flaming until the chapter is out then you can comment it. Peace out, man

[Zulen]

@joekido:

…

I think the reason there IS Spoiler threads and tags is to prevent spoiling of the plot like you just did.

[guyleon]

I see mods are just trying to maintain positive aura on threads and negative responses just don't help them with their job. When one's been around quite long, he'll know what can start things. Although it's not happened in 432 spoiler (yet), I think mods just don't want Aldrich's comment to provoke defenses from the other fans (that you call retarded) and eventually turn the spoiler discussion into a bitchin' war, that's why the special spoiler rules were made.

I agree tho, what's so hard in waiting 1-2 days if you want to voice your opinion without breaking the rule? It's not too much to ask, isn't it? Plus, all arguments will be more valid once full chapter + translation is out, won't it?

[joekido the Second]

@Private:

I think the reason there IS Spoiler threads and tags is to prevent spoiling of the plot like you just did.

Shit! Thanks for reminding me, quickly! Delete that quote!

[AWB]

This post is deleted!

[theinvisibleworm]

ooshi, is there a reason for your hostility towards me while I'm expressing my honest opinion regarding the enforcement of a given rule? I don't remember being negative towards you, ever. My posts generally don't cause flamefests, though, it seems like you're attempting to start one in this thread for whatever (ironic) reason. Yes, people who flame other people over whether or not they like something that happened in one piece are acting stupid.

Just so you know though, if you post, "It's rather disappointing that x happened" and people make idiotic posts in response, it's not your fault, it's their's. You have an interesting conception of what makes someone ride the 'short bus'.

Now to the only serious response I got.

Well, that's always the tricky part, because generally what happens is someone says something and it starts a chain reaction that lasts for several pages. It's not just a few stray comments here and there. If it was, it wouldn't be such an issue. If everyone could learn to just be…not so much of a jerk the way they express their opinions, think a little more before they post rather than posting just for the sake of posting, and know when to just ignore some people, then we wouldn't need to do much of anything to the thread.

I understand your frustration there, and I realize that you guys just want to prevent the forums from going to hell. Perhaps I'm just used to a different style of moderation, and so dislike yours. That's not to say anything negative about you guys, as I have a great time at these boards in general, so you must be doing most everything right. It's just that, at the forum I moderate, which is somewhat larger than this one (though it's a different kind of forum so I can easily understand the need for a different kind of moderation), we don't ban the discussion on anything unless it creates a legal risk for us, and we just clean up the messes when they arrive. If people are discussing things intelligently, we'll gladly delete even a dozen crappy posts so that they can at least continue the discussion that they were trying to have. Our philosophy is that that is exactly what moderation is.

Anyway, I understand your position and I thank you for explaining it to me so clearly, Cosmic Debris. Agreeing to disagree respectfully,

Worm

[Aldrich]

@ooshi78:

it's their rules, deal with it.

Thanks for the insight.

you guys agreed to follow them when you made an account.

I certainly wouldn't have agreed to follow a rule basically saying "don't be a meanie with One Piece cause it annoys Tr00 FAnS :( "

if you don't like it you can talk to them about it

Which is why this thread is for, thanks for your insight part 2.

can't you see that it's posts like aldrich's that kick off what you call the "retarded bullshit"?

And THIS is the problem. My post had nothing that should cause normal people to react in such an anal way. If some posters are too much of puerile jackasses to accept the fact some OP fans can dislike PARTS of the manga (as I never said OP in its entirety was anything else than a great manga), then the poor atmosphere of the forums and the bad quality of discussion are coming from them, not from the guy who supposedly would have deserved all that nerd wrath just for POSTING HIS OPINION, which is the biggest nonsense ever.

In reply of Carly from the spoiler thread:

@Carly:

It's people trolling every week and causing all this fake bullshit internet drama that's put rules like that in the first place (hell, my idea was to have no spoiler threads at all anymore). Dissenting opinions are perfectly fine, but don't expect us to not get fed up with the same old USOPP SUCKS ODA SUCKS LALALALALA HEY LOOK I CAN SWEAR LIKE THE BIG KIDS every week and not do something about it. It brings everything off-topic, it's attention-whorism, and it's just plain rude to talk shit.

Unsubstantiated claims Basically what you're saying is you got tired of some members "trolling" and bashing characters and Oda. Besides the fact I've never seen such things (and don't tell me I was the one doing it, or show me examples, not just throwing baseless accusations in the air), again, why didn't you simply enforce the existing rules (you know, the "no trolling/character bashing" ones) to make sure such despicable acts stop, instead of making up a new one? I'm just trying to understand the logics behind that, to me it seems "disenting opinions" aren't perfectly fine at all when they're accused of being trolling and bashing.

[Carly]

I basically have to back up what Cosmic is saying. The problem is not dissenting opinions in the first place (because to some extent even I'm not really comfortable with the spoiler this week myself), but in the tone/manner the dissent is phrased and the resulting trainwreck that follows. It's been happening for months and we're pretty much sick of it. It's not our job to play babysitter, but it is our job to make sure that you guys can talk and stay on topic without degenerating into incessant bitching and whining 'cause that's not fun for anyone – much less us who have to sift through it.

Thing is, we've tried many different ways to counter this. Suspending the thread, making The Rule, temp-banning for a while -- and none of it's worked. So basically we're kind of at our wit's end here. Have we given everyone enough chances to be mature and leave the bait alone or do we go even further; just not having the threads at all ? We want to keep things relatively pleasant and smooth here, you know ? If that means taking away the privilege (yes, it's a privilege; BF does all that out of his own kindness) of spoiler threads to get the message across then that's what we might have to do. shrug

(Also, Worm, I believe I owe you an apology from several months back that I never rectified… sorry about what happened back then. :\ )

@Aldrich:

Unsubstantiated claims Basically what you're saying is you got tired of some members "trolling" and bashing characters and Oda. Besides the fact I've never seen such things (and don't tell me I was the one doing it, or show me examples, not just throwing baseless accusations in the air), again, why didn't you simply enforce the existing rules (you know, the "no trolling/character bashing" ones) to make sure such despicable acts stop, instead of making up a new one? I'm just trying to understand the logics behind that, to me it seems "disenting opinions" aren't perfectly fine at all when they're accused of being trolling and bashing.

Errrr yeah we get sick of it. It's called being human. :P
You complain so much about being disappointed with the manga, with Oda, with Usopp, you put it in cussarific terms (christ, even I don't swear that much and I'm as lewd as it gets) and almost damn near every single time it's one of YOUR comments that manages to derail a thread. I have better things to do than go through every stinkin thread since the beginning of Enies Lobby to pick out just exactly where each 'Usopp is fucking lame' threw things off, but someone else could, prolly. There's a difference between disappointment and brutal incitement; yours is a case of the latter. If you want to dissent, back it up with reasonable statements in THE FIRST POST YOU MAKE, don't wait for a trainwreck to explain things and don't be so bloody rude to anyone who dares to disagree. We're reading freaking comic books, after all. There's no need to slap the sofa king we-todd-id on anyone over comic books.

[Aldrich]

@Carly:

Errrr yeah we get sick of it. It's called being human.

No. It's called being groupthinking fanboys/girls.

If you want to dissent, back it up with reasonable statements in THE FIRST POST YOU MAKE

I've always put effort in my posts and tried to avoid the kind of inane 5 words post cluttered with emoticons and capital letters you can find in spoiler/chapter threads. But those pause no problem of course cause they're praising Oda and not contradicting the forum's hive mind.

We're reading freaking comic books, after all. There's no need to slap the sofa king we-todd-id on anyone over comic books.

I'm not "slapping the sofa king we-todd-id" (not sure what it means, but whatever) over comic books. I never bashed anybody because they had a different opinion than me, and respectfully stated it. I bashed assholes (sometimes senior members btw, supposed to be exemples) who never tried to reply on topic but instead adressed me with ad hominems.

But as Sabretooth said, apparently mods are more concerned about salvaging the honor of a 10 feet nosed imaginary character than making sure members aren't bashed for stating their opinion. And as I'm not one to rat people out, I reply to them using the same tone they used to adress me. I probably shouldn't, but again I'm not the primary culprit in that situation as you're trying to imply.

Anyway thanks for confirming what I thought.

[oceanizer]

Sorry, it's 3:20am on a normal work day, and I'm still working on some stuff. It's been like this for past month and it'll continue until the end of this month, and I don't really have time to deal with everything right now, so I'll make it short.

Aldrich, we are at the point that wouldn't mind being called a fourm nazi. From your past posts, I'm sick of it, and I'd rather not see your posts at all. We've been receiving several PMs/messages from other forum members expressing similar opinions with us about your behavior. I don't know if any of the mods end up giving you warnings in the past since your posts have always been on the borderline of getting warned, but if we counted them all, you'd have been banned from the forum a long time ago.

We are trying our best not to judge forum members from our likes and dislikes. I think we've been a lot more lenient than a whole bunch of other forums. I don't really have anything against anyone, and try not to say opinion on certain someone if I know I dislike the person and other mods brought him/her to other staff's attention since I know my judgement would not be fair.

However, Aldrich, I apologize if I had some prejudice from your past behavior and gave you unnecesary warnings. Probably I thought "Oh, Aldrich's giving another one of his negative comments. Meh. Give him spoiler warning." Really, it gets annoying after while. Also, after reviewing reports about you from past events, I think we have plenty of warnings for you that we just didn't give out in the past, and I don't think this one could make up for those past warnings that we let slide at all. So in the end, you still stand on the same spot, if not worse.

As for the spoiler rules being useless or not, I don't think it's useless at all. It's not that hard to express your dislikes etc couple of days later. I'm sure you will be able to give out better comments than just "oh this is so predictable. It sucks." We had too many forum members expressing such opinions without any solid ground in the past, and we are tired of that. Again, we have no problem if you say such thing after you get the whole picture. I'm sure you'll have something more than "this is crap" anyway.

I'm really fed up with all those spoiler offenses lately, whether it be complaints of how the story is proceeding, or people post spoilers outside of the spoiler threads. If this thread goes on any futher, I'll change my vote to make the spoiler thread go away. So yeah, I'm closing this. Really, take it or leave it. Please. We are generally open to opinions and suggestions, but there are some stuff that we discussed so much among ourselves and nothing can change our opinion unless a miracle happens. This is one of them. If you (any forum member) disagree with this, we admins and mods have no problem with you leaving the forum and expressing your opinions elsewhere. Remember, we've never forced you to stick around, so don't be obliged to stick around if you don't like something we like.

By the way, sabret00the, even if I deleted the post, mods can still view it, so don't worry.