Arlong Park Forums

are you sure this is a part of Catholic doctrine? I'm sure it isn't. God is merciful. For example in Catholicism, every person, who hadn't known Christianity, but nevertheless led good life is going to Heaven. That is part of the doctrine.
People who rejected Christ are potentially going to Hell. That means there is great danger of them going to Hell, but it's not that we know this for sure.
In Catholicism, religion, that has best chances to take you to Heaven is Christian Catholicism, but that doesn't mean that if you believe in something else, you won't go Heaven.
God is Love itself. Person's sins are nothing compared with Gods Love and Mercy.

It does have to be genuine to actually work. That's like most basic requirement.

If the nuns love trotting out it can safely be called part of Catholic doctrine. Catholic guilt is a thing for a reason!

Wagomu

@Print:

The Northern Lights are visible across most of the UK!
But due to light pollution and latitude, not in London. So no Aurora for me, and I really desperately wanted to see it

Instead, we've got sewage floods.

The Northern Lights > Your road covered in poo.

At this time of year? At any time of day? In that part of the world? Localized entirely within your country?

DarkFalcon

If the nuns love trotting out it can safely be called part of Catholic doctrine. Catholic guilt is a thing for a reason!

I've always wondered about Catholic guilt. Because I'm Catholic and I don't get it. What the hell is Catholic guilt? Please maybe you can tell me?

taboo

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

are you sure this is a part of Catholic doctrine? I'm sure it isn't. God is merciful. For example in Catholicism, every person, who hadn't known Christianity, but nevertheless led good life is going to Heaven. That is part of the doctrine.
People who rejected Christ are potentially going to Hell. That means there is great danger of them going to Hell, but it's not that we know this for sure.
In Catholicism, religion, that has best chances to take you to Heaven is Christian Catholicism, but that doesn't mean that if you believe in something else, you won't go Heaven.
God is Love itself. Person's sins are nothing compared with Gods Love and Mercy.

It does have to be genuine to actually work. That's like most basic requirement.

tbh i was really just making a joke in my original post, but original sin is genuinely believed by some (not all), and it's generally accepted that every man is a sinner except the messiah. it's just how some interpret different passages and junk.

fedcom

@Dryish:

Are we completely sure we want to have an actual discussion about what is and what isn't part of a doctrine of a religious group that has a billion members?

It is ultimately one organization so why not.

Though it's certainly true that all the stereotypes of American catholics I've learned from tv (i.e everyone is guilty all the time and going to hell but no one cares or goes to church and families are very non-traditional) don't apply to my familial brand of Southern Indian Catholicism at all.

Nobodyman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_guilt

I've always wondered about Catholic guilt. Because I'm Catholic and I don't get it. What the hell is Catholic guilt? Please maybe you can tell me?

Oddly enough, there's a Wikipedia entry on it

Foolio

@Wagomu:

At this time of year? At any time of day? In that part of the world? Localized entirely within your country?

Excuse me while I fetch us some steamed hams.

Purple Hermit

I've always wondered about Catholic guilt. Because I'm Catholic and I don't get it. What the hell is Catholic guilt? Please maybe you can tell me?

Basically the idea that any indulgence you do is sinful.

I've always understood that original sin is the reason why baptism is necessary, though, so I don't think, at least now, that we're all doomed to hell.

Cyan D. Funk

Hitchens was a badass purely just for his treatise on his own mortality during his cancer battle, even while every one of the bloated evangelical pit bosses that held him as a boogeyman crowed continuously about how he'd definitely come crawling to God NOW

Hitchens was a racist piece of shit who defended Ho Chi Minh

Why do you insist on taking the worst positions held by reddit atheists (who are also the worst atheists) Do you subscribe to THE CHART too?

Insider2000

"We have to stop the Pope you guys! He's evil!"
"Oh, but he's not as mean as the other popes! He's a pretty cool guy! He likes gay people!"
"How can you people be so blind!?!"

The pope flies off on a hot hair balloon, maniacally laughing like the Penguin from the 1960s Batman.

DarkFalcon

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

tbh i was really just making a joke in my original post, but original sin is genuinely believed by some (not all), and it's generally accepted that every man is a sinner except the messiah. it's just how some interpret different passages and junk.

It's not that original sin isn't part of the doctrine, it's just it's relatively minor one. It isn't a factor that condemns someone to Hell (it may increase the chances of getting there).
Basically, when you are Catholic, and you prepare for Confirmation, you are thought some basic principles of Catholic Religion (sure many people don't pay much attention, but for me it was very important at that point). Those are like official standards. And according to those, you can get to Heaven, even if you aren't Baptised or if you are non-Christian (Although it's highly advisable).

Gliblord

@Cyan:

Hitchens was a racist piece of shit who defended Ho Chi Minh

Why do you insist on taking the worst positions held by reddit atheists (who are also the worst atheists) Do you subscribe to THE CHART too?

Yeah his politics were pretty bad. But I ain't talking about his politics. The fact is that he's beloved by many becausd he opened their minds through his rhetoric. Are you going to discount his hand in their journey of personal discovery? By the way I dont identify as a Reddit type atheist at all. I pride myself on my reasonableness and only attack those in power and the truly despicable, never everyday believers. Through that method I recently deconverted someone irl!

DarkFalcon

@Purple:

Basically the idea that any indulgence you do is sinful.

I've always understood that original sin is the reason why baptism is necessary, though, so I don't think, at least now, that we're all doomed to hell.

How that is Catholic specific? And it's not. Habitual indulgence or indulgence in serious matters is.
Neither is baptism strictly necessary, although, according to Catholic doctrine, it's highly advisable.

Purple Hermit

It's not that original sin isn't part of the doctrine, it's just it's relatively minor one. It isn't a factor that condemns someone to Hell (it may increase the chances of getting there).
Basically, when you are Catholic, and you prepare for Confirmation, you are thought some basic principles of Catholic Religion (sure many people don't pay much attention, but for me it was very important at that point). Those are like official standards. And according to those, you can get to Heaven, even if you aren't Baptised or if you are non-Christian (Although it's highly advisable).

Yeah basically I was taught that baptism is the way to cleanse someone of original sin and that confirmation is when you're really a full part of the church, but baptism is big because of that. It's also why people are allowed to baptize under dire circumstances using regular water if someone else wants to join at the last minute to say the least and why some parents are concerned when their babies aren't baptized but die prematurely.

Gliblord

And yes, the whole idea of the dark ages is totally wrong. See, I know my shit! Im honestly just fascinated by the topic in general, I'm really really not a reactionary dude at all

Purple Hermit

How that is Catholic specific? And it's not. Habitual indulgence or indulgence in serious matters is.
Neither is baptism strictly necessary, although, according to Catholic doctrine, it's highly advisable.

I'd imagine this probably goes back in the day with more nuns teaching catholic school with the impression of basically deriding people for being less faithful. Thus, now, catholics just like you and me are less prone to knowing what it is (I had to look it up myself, lol)

But I'm definitely sure original sin is definitely to be cleansed through baptism.

Edit: oh but you were talking about everyone else in general. Yeah I think that's the case is now it's definitely being taught that as long as you were a "good person" then you don't necessarily have to do all the same steps to get into heaven during Confirmation class.

Gliblord

God my heart is racing like a bastard. I hate forum arguing

taboo

God my heart is racing like a bastard. I hate forum arguing

you're a really cool atheist B)

Other religions are great, atheism is great, it's all great and so let's all be friends and talk about the random news articles together

DarkFalcon

@Purple:

Yeah basically I was taught that baptism is the way to cleanse someone of original sin and that confirmation is when you're really a full part of the church, but baptism is big because of that. It's also why people are allowed to baptize under dire circumstances using regular water if someone else wants to join at the last minute to say the least and why some parents are concerned when their babies aren't baptized but die prematurely.

parents want to be certain. Baptism technically cleanse all the sins, but still it's probably better to be good non-Christian, than bad person, who converts in last moment (especially for people who thought they'd be cunning, sin all life and than let themselves be Baptised - yeah, things like that used to happen).
Babies in Catholicism are baptised because of other perks (not just safe trip to Heaven) in case of dying and also attempt to continue tradition.

Gliblord

you're a really cool atheist B)Other religions are great, atheism is great, it's all great and so let's all be friends and talk about the random news articles together

Exactly! Why are we all getting so heated when we're all allies against the true enemy, fundamentalist oppression

Purple Hermit

parents want to be certain. Baptism technically cleanse all the sins, but still it's probably better to be good non-Christian, than bad person, who converts in last moment (especially for people who thought they'd be cunning, sin all life and than let themselves be Baptised - yeah, things like that used to happen).
Babies in Catholicism are baptised because of other perks (not just safe trip to Heaven) in case of dying and also attempt to continue tradition.

Aye, I was more pointing out the original reasoning behind baptism. It's not as necessary a rite into heaven as I think it used to be taught, but that was the original purpose. And last minute baptism I think is more for reasoning that someone really does wish to repent and is sorrowful for their sins and wants to join the faith. Of course you can't just assume it all goes down the wash and that you can just do it the last minute, but there are people who may really learn about what they do wrong at the last minute.

And yeah there's always the tradition aspect.

DarkFalcon

@Purple:

I'd imagine this probably goes back in the day with more nuns teaching catholic school with the impression of basically deriding people for being less faithful. Thus, now, catholics just like you and me are less prone to knowing what it is (I had to look it up myself, lol)

But I'm definitely sure original sin is definitely to be cleansed through baptism.

Edit: oh but you were talking about everyone else in general. Yeah I think that's the case is now it's definitely being taught that as long as you were a "good person" then you don't necessarily have to do all the same steps to get into heaven during Confirmation class.

seems like the concept is attributed to the Catholics by non-Catholics, and doesn't actually tie very much with Catholicism (at least according to studies mentioned in the article).

Actually all things we do as Catholic have the purpose to help us be better people. That includes cleansing ourselves of original sin. But that doesn't mean, that people who don't do it all are automatically less good or in way to eternal damnation.

Gliblord

Yeah the Catholic Church does have a many paths to God thing. But then it also still has hell so they're not all that amazingly enlightened either. The fact that any eternal damnation exists at all is, in my opinion, pretty indefensible, but the common apologetic for that is something along the lines of it's an eternal punishment for a finite crime because it springs from an infinite source, i.e. God. Some consolation!

DarkFalcon

Yeah the Catholic Church does have a many paths to God thing. But then it also still has hell so they're not all that amazingly enlightened either. The fact that any eternal damnation exists at all is, in my opinion, pretty indefensible, but the common apologetic for that is something along the lines of it's an eternal punishment for a finite crime because it springs from an infinite source, i.e. God. Some consolation!

Actually there is possibility of eternal damnation. Catholics may hope that it won't happen, but it's uncertain (God is good you know, God is suppose to fight for every soul). What about just punishment for really bad people? Well maybe they'll have longer stay in purgatory or maybe God will allow them to reincarnate (technically reincarnation isn't supposed to happen in Catholicism, but that's almighty God we're talking about, if sees that most fitting for somebody, can make it happen).

Gliblord

Actually there is possibility of eternal damnation. Catholics may hope that it won't happen, but it's uncertain (God is good you know, God is suppose to fight for every soul). What about just punishment for really bad people? Well maybe they'll have longer stay in purgatory or maybe God will allow them to reincarnate (technically reincarnation isn't supposed to happen in Catholicism, but that's almighty God we're talking about, if sees that most fitting for somebody, can make it happen).

Yeah but the problem is the unjust ETERNALNESS of said punishment

Prismeru

This is why i'm a snake handler.

Shipmate

I don't think of people in term of good and bad.
I think of the Pope as a pretty normal guy who is made special by the position he is in. But regardless, thanks to his position, his words carry a certain weight and he has been able to exercise a decent amount of positive influence. Considering the consequence, it's fortunate that the Vatican is led by him instead of some ultra-conservative guy, and this, I think, has made things quite a bit easier for many people, so I appreciate him for his positive influence. Needless to say, many problems are still there. Dogmatism, bigotry, hypocrisy, deception and intellectual dishonesty still pervade the organization and some large parts of the world population. We need to get as much help as we can get and win as many people as possible.
Through love, of course.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I'm atheist

I thought you were an agnostic? Where would you place yourself in, say, Dawkins' seven points scale?
My public position would be Temporary Agnostic in Practice (TAP)- a reasonable position that's also convenient for starting up discussions and debates.
@Cyan:

Hitchens was a racist piece of shit who defended Ho Chi Minh

What was his arguments?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Prismeru:

That strip of Oglaf about Religion is more enlightening than ever…I won't link it tho. Oglaf will get me banned.

You are a fellow believer in the sanctity of hotness?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Yeah but the problem is the unjust ETERNALNESS of said punishment

I agree yeah.
The best treatment of this topic, I think, is discussed in Raymond Smullyan's "Who knows - A study of religious consciousness". I recommend the book.

Gliblord

Agnostic is not "atheist lite". He is both agnostic and atheist, which is to say he a) doesn't believe and b) doesn't declare certainty about it.

Wagomu

Monkey King

haha, fuck all of this shit

taboo

haha, fuck all of this shit

can i take a minute to tell you about our lord

Panda Bear

haha, fuck all of this shit

Surely this is not meant to include the Metalocalypse clip, as that is an amazing show.

Monkey King

Too many Mao Zedongs, not enough Zhou Enlais.
Story of the world.

Gliblord

Just because some people get too heated shouldn't preclude rational discussion on the topic when it comes up. It is, in fact, important, and we shouldn't let the most obnoxious people dominate the dialogue

Monkey King

Just because some people get too heated shouldn't preclude rational discussion on the topic when it comes up. It is, in fact, important, and we shouldn't let the most obnoxious people dominate the dialogue

I'm obnoxious AND rational though.

Wagomu

I actually like religious discussion and have an interest in the topic, but you can't just do it in public with strangers. I mean, geez, buy a person dinner first.

fedcom

@Shipmate:

But regardless, thanks to his position, his words carry a certain weight and he has been able to exercise a decent amount of positive influence.

Yeah, this. It is kind or irksome that people provide this hero worship to the pope rather than actually gay activists. But he does have the power to change things.

You know to be completely honest…I feel like marriage is pretty minor in the grand scheme of thigns and too often people miss the point. Sooo many people where I live (who are not gay of course) just blindly assume gay people have it absolutely fine just because we've had legal gay marriage for a decade. But it's not even close to true and things like violence, isolation, other kinds of institutional discrimination involving things like jobs and such...have so much more of an effect on people's lives. (Of course I'm not nearly at the age where I'd even consider marriage)

Like I'm in the closet and am pretty good at not paying what other people say too much attention. But I was out for a grand total of two nights in my life last year and already one of them was marred by violent homophobia.

Edit: gahh the thread died just when I finished writing

Gliblord

I'm obnoxious AND rational though.

Yeah but the rationality outweighs the obnoxiousness, besides sometimes the words do need a little punch. I'm not exactly a consummate gentleman either

Cyan D. Funk

@Shipmate:

What was his arguments?

He quoted Thomas Jefferson once.

No really, that was the argument.

Gliblord

Hitchens also weirdly defended waterboarding until he experienced it himself lol. He was an iconoclast all right

Satsuki

can i take a minute to tell you about our lord

Taggerung

@fedcom:

Yeah, this. It is kind or irksome that people provide this hero worship to the pope rather than actually gay activists. But he does have the power to change things.

You know to be completely honest…I feel like marriage is pretty minor in the grand scheme of thigns and too often people miss the point. Sooo many people where I live (who are not gay of course) just blindly assume gay people have it absolutely fine just because we've had legal gay marriage for a decade. But it's not even close to true and things like violence, isolation, other kinds of institutional discrimination involving things like jobs and such...have so much more of an effect on people's lives. (Of course I'm not nearly at the age where I'd even consider marriage)

Like I'm in the closet and am pretty good at not paying what other people say too much attention. But I was out for a grand total of two nights in my life last year and already one of them was marred by violent homophobia.

Edit: gahh the thread died just when I finished writing

I like states accepting gay marriage because it's a step towards the idea that everyone is equal and people shouldn't be punished for the decisions they make in their personal lives that don't really affect anyone else's. Still I'm a bit worried that gay people will feel pressured to get married once it's all said and done. That society will just find a way to carve us up into a digestible version of what gay means and that will be restricted to the bounds of defined by our overall heterosexual male dominated culture. Maybe I just don't want to have a conversation with my family about why i'm not married by 40 and don't want to be judged about the style of life that I would be living.

Gliblord

The Book of Mormon musical is fucking amazing and everyone must watch it

TheCrystalShip

apparently you cant because you're threatening to leave the forum over it

Nah… I'm leaving because you don't want me here.
Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it? Nobody wants to listen to what the freak has to say (over and over and OVER again), eventually she's going to stop wasting her time talkin'.
Like why would I stay someplace where my fundamental values, morals, ideals, and beliefs are not respected? Where I am continuously crying out into emptiness? Why?
And now I know that I DO have a community. There's no need for me to stay here.

But one last thing:

that is valid problem, that Crystal sees.
Celebrating Francis as champion of equality takes away recognition from people of minorities, who deserve it for work they do. In other words recognition and representation is dispensed unfairly. Double unfairly, as it not only taken away from people, who deserve to be credited, but also from people who have greater need for it.
Additionally it's problematic, as Francis can't be agent of emancipation of groups he doesn't belong to, yet he is seen as such by some.
@ Crystal you've put it down really nicely. If I understood you correctly you don't have problem with particular things Francis said or did, but rather how people respond to them (?).

@Kaiolino:

While Francis has done a lot of good things in the way he renounced Benedict Palpatine's rule and is trying to bring the catholic chruch back to its roots in helping the poor most of all, I do think his progressiveness regarding gays is overblown. He said "Who am I to judge?" once and suddenly everyone is building shrines for him as the new great LGBT rights activitst. Even though he's called gay marriage diabolical, asked the French to revoke their new gay marriage laws and is shocked by gay adoption in certain countries. He still thinks gays are going to hell.

@fedcom:

Yeah, this. It is kind or irksome that people provide this hero worship to the pope rather than actually gay activists. But he does have the power to change things.

You know to be completely honest…I feel like marriage is pretty minor in the grand scheme of thigns and too often people miss the point. Sooo many people where I live (who are not gay of course) just blindly assume gay people have it absolutely fine just because we've had legal gay marriage for a decade. But it's not even close to true and things like violence, isolation, other kinds of institutional discrimination involving things like jobs and such...have so much more of an effect on people's lives. (Of course I'm not nearly at the age where I'd even consider marriage)

Like I'm in the closet and am pretty good at not paying what other people say too much attention. But I was out for a grand total of two nights in my life last year and already one of them was marred by violent homophobia.

THREE, count 'em, THREE FANS! Now that's what I call a cult classic! And that's what I live for.

taboo

@TheCrystalShip:

Nah… I'm leaving because you don't want me here.
Kind of a no-brainer, isn't it? Nobody wants to listen to what the freak has to say (over and over and OVER again), eventually she's going to stop wasting her time talkin'.
Like why would I stay someplace where my fundamental values, morals, ideals, and beliefs are not respected? Where I am continuously crying out into emptiness? Why?
And now I know that I DO have a community. There's no need for me to stay here

How are you a freak???

TheCrystalShip