@Ah1Tm4N:
Chopper dosent notice that hes Ussop either and hes a genius doctor, does that make him dumb too?
More naive than dumb in Choppers case. Thats always been his character: someone who believes everything anyone tells him, especially usopp.
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Favorite/Least Favorite parts of this arc (Spoilers)
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I had problems over the course of the arc, but all that remains is the Lucci fight. I couldn't stand getting 4 pages of it a week for months. And after all that buildup, Luffy didn't win, just broke even.
Originally Posted by Battle Franky
Bad move, bub!
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I had problems over the course of the arc, but all that remains is the Lucci fight. I couldn't stand getting 4 pages of it a week for months. And after all that buildup, Luffy didn't win, just broke even.
I agree, the fight wasn't all that good but if it's any consolation, Luffy was still concious (spelling). I think the ending should've been a bit more dramatic like all Luffy's past fights.
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Yeah, that's the thing that annoyed me. He was just as helpless, the only difference was Lucci was unconscious and Luffy was squealing.
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Oddly enough the Lucci/Luffy fight is my favorite in the series. When I read the chapters over in sequence. Divorced from the whole one a week thing they flow together with beautiful symetry. The fact that in the end Lucci truely was the better was even greater than I could ahve hoped. It was in the end a cheap shot that slipped through because he underestimated the resolve of his opponent that doomed him.
None of the CP9 fights really bothered me because they were all kept quite short and sweet. If I was to single one out as problematic it was Sanji and Califa and to a lesser degree Califa and Nami. She really does play around to much to let Nami do her thing.
I would have to say that the unveiling of CP9 was my favorite moment. Then the months of wondering how on the dear sweet earth they were going to best CP9.
Other highs are the sea train, all of it. Anything that Sanji does period.
The 200 captain fight was brilliantly done and showcased something rarely scene. A true mob battle against non scrubs.
My lows are the fact that the fucking franky family lived. They were the perfect sacrifice with whom to pave a road of skulls to glory.
I have a few other gripes, namely surrounding the fact that I really didn't get a hard on from robins tragic past. It and franky's past both left me bonerless. Its not that I didn't enjoy them, its that I didn't get sexual pleasure from them.
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@Fire Fist:
Why does everyone get the impression that Luffy is stupid? He's not stupid, he's just absent minded and carefree. There's a difference.
When the author himself calls Luffy stupid, that's a fair indicator of his general intellectual orientation in life. Luffy relies on emotions, impulse and intuition; some call it "instinct", almost as if he's running on a biological program for how to fight. Aside from that, though, he's totally helpess (by his own admission numerous times).
While I can understand Luffy having a "feel" for how to best apply his Devil Fruit powers, he still likely had some training from Ace and perhaps briefly some from Shanks. His fighting style is a result of experience, not intuition, so he knows how to react in most situations against a diverse congregation of opponents; when he's confronted with someone who breaks type, he has a propensity to come up wtih imaginative attacks, usually inspired by stuff he sees around him.
Gear 2 is a complete departure from this trend, since it has no root in any prior attack, it involves biological science that is clearly beyond Luffy's comprehension abilities, and it is unrealistically effective. Just because Luffy boosts his red blood cell count doesn't mean his body can keep up with accelerated flow, which could easily result in a hemorrhage, especially if he gets wounded.
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Exactly. Maybe I should just leave all explaining to you Terek. XD
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Oddly enough the Lucci/Luffy fight is my favorite in the series. When I read the chapters over in sequence. Divorced from the whole one a week thing they flow together with beautiful symetry. The fact that in the end Lucci truely was the better was even greater than I could ahve hoped. It was in the end a cheap shot that slipped through because he underestimated the resolve of his opponent that doomed him.
Yeah, put together, it was better, but weekly it was like the Sasori fight in Naruto.
And no matter how you slice it, Lucci wasn't really better. The better in a deathmatch is the one left standing. Which was actually neither, haha.
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I don't see why people dont consider this a win for Luffy. I mean when he beat Croc he wasnt in any condition to move around either and had to be saved by the king.
And no matter how you slice it, Lucci wasn't really better. The better in a deathmatch is the one left standing.
Agree completely. Both went at it full force and all that matters is whoever is "standing" at the end.
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Oh I consider it a win. I am all for cheating. Its part of life and combat. In fact I think more of you if you cluster fuck someone under the table than if you stupidly stand there and watch them transform. I just like the fact that if Lucci hadn't been so sadistic and properly finished Luffy when he nailed him with that third Rokuougan he would have won. In a straight fight Luffy is not Lucci's better, thats the point, not even his powerups really made him greater than Lucci they only allowed him to scrape a victory if not a 100% shonen legit one.
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Hmm…maybe we should discuss this considering the unwritten "shounen rules" which state you have to let the opponent finish powering up, getting an attack ready, and take turns hitting each other. XD
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Well, in that sense it's not really cheating. Not anymore than punching someone before they punch you. But I have a hard time seeing it as a victory, since it was all he could do to survive the fight.
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The real truth of combat is that you take you opponent before he can react in a place he can't defend with overwhelming power, using every trick you can think of to unbalance him and once you have him on the rope you mercilessly savage him until he is dead.
In Shonen, you give him time to power up, don't capitalize on his inattention, relent in your assualts and let him catch his breath and spend alot of time moralizing. Samurai Champloo, Berserk and Blade of the immortal do a good job of showing how satisfying no holds barred fights can be.
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Gear 2 is a complete departure from this trend, since it has no root in any prior attack, it involves biological science that is clearly beyond Luffy's comprehension abilities, and it is unrealistically effective. Just because Luffy boosts his red blood cell count doesn't mean his body can keep up with accelerated flow, which could easily result in a hemorrhage, especially if he gets wounded.
OR maybe we're overcomplicating it? For this technique, Luffy merely needs to do something with his legs to start moving faster and stronger. He could have just been messing around with his body to discover it. Being this far into the series and having found so many ways to use his rubber body already, maybe Luffy finally just came upon this ability.
Maybe Luffy understands gear 2 in simpler terms like "if I do this, that happens" instead of the blood thing. Besides, apparently only his rubber body can do it anyway.
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When the author himself calls Luffy stupid, that's a fair indicator of his general intellectual orientation in life. Luffy relies on emotions, impulse and intuition; some call it "instinct", almost as if he's running on a biological program for how to fight. Aside from that, though, he's totally helpess (by his own admission numerous times).
While I can understand Luffy having a "feel" for how to best apply his Devil Fruit powers, he still likely had some training from Ace and perhaps briefly some from Shanks. His fighting style is a result of experience, not intuition, so he knows how to react in most situations against a diverse congregation of opponents; when he's confronted with someone who breaks type, he has a propensity to come up wtih imaginative attacks, usually inspired by stuff he sees around him.
Gear 2 is a complete departure from this trend, since it has no root in any prior attack, it involves biological science that is clearly beyond Luffy's comprehension abilities, and it is unrealistically effective. Just because Luffy boosts his red blood cell count doesn't mean his body can keep up with accelerated flow, which could easily result in a hemorrhage, especially if he gets wounded.
If you think Luffy knows nothing about Physics, I have 5 words for you:
Firing a Cannon against Laboon.
That's all I need to say.
Luffy isn't just a pure fighter. He knows how physics work.
Do I also need to remind you of using rebound against Enel to counter his Mantra? Can an idiot in physics or combat think of that? I don't think so.
I suggest you go read up on a vacuum brake and how they work. You'll find that Gear 2 is very similar.
I called it wrong, so long ago. I guess this needs to be changed.
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@Fire Fist:
That's all I need to say.
Even stupid folk can recognize/observe casual relationships, they just can't explain it. You're basically saying Luffy can see that punching people knocks them down; Yeah, well, OK, everyone can give testimony to that, but not everyone could say it's a "transfer of potential energy to kinetic across mediums". The quoted section is the level of detailled knowlege Luffy would need to possess to intentionally invent Gear 2; finding it by accident is fine, but Luffy pulled the move right out of his arse, so he clearly he thought it up sometime after the mansion fight.
Frankly, he's just too stupid. Most of his "ingenuity" in battle probably draws from his training experience, not because he's some fighting prodigy; if such was the case, he should have been able to beat up Higuma without much trouble.
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Yes luffy showd RUDIMENTARY knowledge of physics by firing a cannon into Laboon, but by doing this is in itself, stupid. He was only lucky laboon didnt crush their ship after noticing them.
I can't believe theres even an argument about this…Id have thought after 40 something volumes itd be apparent luffys not the brightest of folk. If you can provide 3 examples of luffy showing intelligence, im sure out of everyone here we can give 300 examples of luffy being stupid.
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That's the whole point. Luffy's stupid when it comes to common sense, but he's a tactician in combat that's unrivaled save for a few. I'm trying to point out that what Luffy knows, he knows well. What he doesn't know, he doesn't have a clue about.
All the times Luffy has showed intelligence has been either combat or physics. You're right, firing the cannon into Laboon in itself was stupid, but the physics application that Luffy understood wasn't. Just like Gomu Gomu no Baka. It was an idiotic move, but Luffy understood that if he wasn't thinking conciously, Enel couldn't predict his moves. Same with when he was hitting against Maxim to pummel Enel.
Okay, I'll concede. Maybe blood doping is a bit beyond his scope of expertise, but look at this way: Compared to the original Shonen Superhero, Son Goku (Well, the ORIGINAL ORIGINAL was Arale Norimaki from Dr. Slump, but that was a gag series, really), Luffy's a genius. Goku would come at an enemy until he lost, then go train for a bazillion days, then come back and beat him. Luffy will actually modify his combat strategy. When he was fighting Krieg, for example, he realized that he couldn't finish breaking the armor till he got rid of the spear. So he started hitting the spear to break it and get it out of the way. With Crocodile, he realized blood works the same as water, and blood can't be evaporated like water can because of the plasma within it.
Is Luffy stupid? Yes. I won't argue that. He's not very bright. But even combat experience can't teach you everything on the spot. Luffy fought with only Ace for 10 years. No one else in Fuschia village was even close to his level. I doubt Ace varied his combat ability enough to account for ALL the different fighting styles Luffy would encounter. I'm sure Ace couldn't create Air doors, didn't have armor with 50 weapons inside, didn't have claws and could move incredibly fast, etc, etc. Ace was a normal human and Luffy's only known training partner.
That said, Luffy analyzed his opponent's abilities and adjusted/created moves on the spot. That's the mark of a very observant individual and a leader.
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I can agree with that. Luffy can analyze an enemy very well. Hes a great fighter mostly because of this. I wasn't really arguing that. The only problems I had with your previous arguments were that
a) he wasnt an idiot- something you briefly dismissed in your first few sentences of ur first postb) he knows enough science to know how to utilize Gear 2- well obviously he does but the fact that it seems out of place should be obvious
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Things I liked:
- The whole Strawhats on the wall scene
- Strawhat conflict
- Robin's lost composure (I do like her)
- Franky's antics
Things I didn't like:
- Sogeking
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Speaking of losing composure, I really did like seeing Robin punched in the face and kicked around by Spandam. Not that I hated her, but I felt it was in need for a looong time.
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Luffy's Gear 2nd was speficially stated to cause no harm to Luffy because of his rubber body. Rubber easily stretches and expands to accomidate for manipulation. Therefore, increasing his blood pressure should cause no vessels to rupture. S'not that hard to figure out.
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The quoted section is the level of detailled knowlege Luffy would need to possess to intentionally invent Gear 2; finding it by accident is fine, but Luffy pulled the move right out of his arse, so he clearly he thought it up sometime after the mansion fight.
Actually, from his statment it sound like he thought it up sometime after his loss to Aokiji. Maybe he didn't perfect it until his fight with Blueno? Or maybe he knew it earlier, but didn't try it because of unknown side effects? The Blueno fight would be a safe place to experiment, since he kind of had an edge.
Oh yeah, as for my least favorite, ironically it was all the negative feedback for this arc. I just didn't share most of it. And the wait between chapters, that sucked too.
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Speaking of losing composure, I really did like seeing Robin punched in the face and kicked around by Spandam. Not that I hated her, but I felt it was in need for a looong time.
It's weird, seeing those things happening to someone like that is… not satisfying... but fascinating, maybe.
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@Octogon:
I agree with this. Luffy is stupid in 99% of things because he does't care, at all. But he;s a genius in the few thins he does care for. Such as fighing.
Just like Goku….....
Luffy probably is more concious about his surrounding than anyone else, though..... even though he is super don't care atitude.....
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@Fire Fist:
Okay, I'll concede. Maybe blood doping is a bit beyond his scope of expertise, but look at this way: Compared to the original Shonen Superhero, Son Goku (Well, the ORIGINAL ORIGINAL was Arale Norimaki from Dr. Slump, but that was a gag series, really), Luffy's a genius. Goku would come at an enemy until he lost, then go train for a bazillion days, then come back and beat him. Luffy will actually modify his combat strategy. When he was fighting Krieg, for example, he realized that he couldn't finish breaking the armor till he got rid of the spear. So he started hitting the spear to break it and get it out of the way. With Crocodile, he realized blood works the same as water, and blood can't be evaporated like water can because of the plasma within it.
I think we're speaking of different power level here. One Piece doesn't measure power vertically, but unique specialists put in a fight and see how they counter each other. They generally have close level of human strength, but have different techniques.
Goku, as old as he's one of the firsts (and comparing old days' ideas with the recent is a bit unfair, imo), was pure strength. It was good on early of the series because they have many different attacks and traps, but then everyone was able to copy the move, the Saiyan came and only leaves energy balls, strength, and speed as the only factors. Whoever faster and stronger wins. No more complex techniques about how to counter this and that needed; all are solved with greater power.
I don't have the copy for my DB now but I remember Goku thought of tactic to trap Super Freeza to eat his attack, or thought of how to power-up the Super Saiyan without losing the speed. And in the end, even the proud Vegeta admited Kakarot's a genius fighter beyond him. -
I can only wish Oda would show Jyabura's tattoo in his human form.
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I loved all the powerups the mugiwaras got. It's so easy for an anime to just go "I think I'll go super sayan 12!! AHHHHHH! ::hair turns tye dye::" but all the mugiwaras got really interesting and original power boosts.
Although the fight dragged a little, Kaku was definately my favorite. The Giraffe giraffe fruit? come on, that's awesome.
Sogeking was fun, I hope that he switches back and forth with usopp, it'd be lame if it's just one of them from now on.
I also loved the polls on the original AP website "who's going to be the new crew member?"
Kaku = 97% of the vote
Franky = -25%
…good times...
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Speaking of losing composure, I really did like seeing Robin punched in the face and kicked around by Spandam. Not that I hated her, but I felt it was in need for a looong time.
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Right. Because a long time ago she didn't suffer anything at all. Nope. Even if she did deserve it because of the more recent past, Spandam's not the one who should be carrying out anything deserved.
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No offense, but you definitely don't know what I'm talking about.
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I think we're speaking of different power level here. One Piece doesn't measure power vertically, but unique specialists put in a fight and see how they counter each other. They generally have close level of human strength, but have different techniques.
Goku, as old as he's one of the firsts (and comparing old days' ideas with the recent is a bit unfair, imo), was pure strength. It was good on early of the series because they have many different attacks and traps, but then everyone was able to copy the move, the Saiyan came and only leaves energy balls, strength, and speed as the only factors. Whoever faster and stronger wins. No more complex techniques about how to counter this and that needed; all are solved with greater power.
I don't have the copy for my DB now but I remember Goku thought of tactic to trap Super Freeza to eat his attack, or thought of how to power-up the Super Saiyan without losing the speed. And in the end, even the proud Vegeta admited Kakarot's a genius fighter beyond him.I forgot to propose this in my shounen formula topic but "power" takes the form of a pyramid. Each of the "pegs" at the foot of the pyramid represent fighting variants, such as intelligence, cunning, luck, ect. The point that reaches the vertex of the pyramid (id est, in the centre) would be strength. So, as DB progressed into DBZ, the large variety of techniques and such that made up its foundation evaporated and only the more central stuff like strength continued on, until the entire series was just based on a single tier of power.
I'll graph this when I get home…
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As a whole, this is my favorite story. Before so it was still Arlong park tied with the Davy Back games. Not a big fan of the skypedia though…
There was just so much to love about this arc. I only hated the character look for Blueno. But even still, he was awsome just for what he could do with that Doa doa fruit. Kaku turning into a giraffee LOL c'mon! That's one of the best jokes in the whole series! Kumadori! Just the fact that even after Chopper was down, as an asassin, he still continued to wail on him. Plus the whole failing attempts at suicide. Lucchi was just awsome on every level. Loved Califa and her "That's sexual harrassment" stuff. Fukouro's humpty dumpty appearance. Jyabura ... and even Spandam.
Oda did good with making you really hate Spandam. Loved the sea train assult. Paulie. Luffy getting stuck all over the place. The suprise of who the CP9 were. Franky. Iceburg and his "Nmma!" Tyrannosaurous. Basically all of Water 7.
This is also the only time I ever thought Chopper was cool. Chop-zilla!
Things I didn't like. Zoro's finish on Kaku... where the hell did THAT come from? Don't think he needed the extra arms.
Random no name one pannel Character destroying Zoro's sword.
Robin's past. Just didn't think that was better told when at the moment it was released I was yerning for the fights to kick off.
Fukouro's voice in the anime. I was expecting deeper. Much deeper. -
Dislike: I wanted Usopp to fight Kaku but he fought Zoro and usopp never got a fight, and the only thing i like about Nami vs Kalifa fight was chibi nami.
Likes:Franky vs fukuro fight and Monster Chopper is what i like the most. -
Like the most: Luffy vs Ussop
Laugh the most: Coup de Vent and Frank's chasing missiles
Dislike the most: Ao Kiji reaction at the end (but this yet can be fix it)Laught the most at anime: Sanji's reaction when Zoro asked if he got lost. The voice actor made it hilarious….
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Fav. Moments:
- Iceburg, Paulie and Franky
- the Straw-Hats' destruction of the Franky House
- Luffy vs. Usopp
- when everyone finds out who the CP9 are
- Sanji's message for Nami
- Zoro stuck in a chimmney
- race to escape Aqua Laguna
- Luffy and Zoro's Siege Cannon
- breaking into Enies Lobby
- Gear 2
- face off against the CP9
- all of Robin's past
- Zoro vs Kaku
Least Fav. Moment:
- Spandam, just everything about him
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Good Parts
-Luffy, Zoro,Sanji, and Chaopper, Kicking ass on the franking family
-Nami yelling at luffy in water 7, making luffy pissed and broke the buildings
-luffy's robot technique
-Luffy yelling back at spanda
-Luffy yelling for robin
-Sogeking shooting the flag
-Ending of all the fights
-Sogeking shooting spandaThings I didn't like
-Nami's fight
-Spadam's exploits in women beating
OP 
